The UK used to be a union with Britain and Ireland. When a majority of Ireland first voted for independence in 1918, the unionist minority refused to accept it through fear of becoming a Protestant minority in a Catholic country where Protestants had historically misruled and mistreated the majority population. Through threat of further violence, Ireland was divided into two states. Northern Ireland became a polity within the UK while the rest of Ireland eventually gained full independence from Britain and has since established itself as a country in its own right.
This pretty much guaranteed that the misrule and denial of civil rights towards Catholics could continue unhindered in 6 Northern Ireland counties with the added bonus, they were now a majority in the new state. By the 1960s the success of the black civil rights movement had inspired Catholics to seek an end to discrimination in Northern Ireland. This threatened protestant supremacy in Northern Ireland and by 1966 the commemorations of the Easter rising turned their fears into paranoia causing unionism to react violently and led to the recent conflict and a emergence of desire for a united Ireland free of British rule.
http://www.judecollins.com/2015/12/truth-justice-and-reconciliation-part-2-by-jessica-mcgrann/
The conflict is over but the truth and reconciliation process supported by the republican movement has been rejected by the British as it would mean admitting the real extent of their involvement which would go against the image portrayed through their propaganda machine which now has full support of the southern parties and their media. Their version is the conflict was a PIRA terror campaign even though it started before they existed and British counter terrorism will be protected through national security; even child sex abuse is covered up as the truth would apparently be more than we can handle.
So with a concerted approach from the media throughout this island, the people in the south believe we are now happy to put the past behind us and embrace the new Northern Ireland, ‘our wee country’ as it is branded. The people in the north feel abandoned by the south and the younger generation are buying into the new Northern Ireland. Any wonder unionists have not had any scrutiny applied to them, have never acknowledged their role in starting the conflict and show no effort in reciprocating gestures of reconciliation.
But is Sinn Fein’s efforts at reconciliation and making this place work, only feeding the support for a separate Northern Ireland country? Are they in fact deepening the divisions between our people by trying to heal divisions with those who want and need the divisions to remain?
These divisions are no longer over a 6 county border, but run right through this island. They are no longer a religious divide, but will mean division within our own communities, Catholic against Catholic, Irish against Irish ,and it will spread right across the 32 counties.
Like it or not, those who support a united Ireland are being marginalised. There has been no discussion and no buy-in for this new Northern Ireland which I already despise.Perhaps instead of calling for a border poll and debate on unity since Dublin have no interest in such, we should talk about embracing this new Northern Ireland.
Some questions which could make a difference.
1. Would embracing Northern Ireland quash the excuse of national security and release the evidence of British state murder and collusion? That would be a good reason to support it. Do we really want the foundations of a new Northern Ireland country to be built upon lies and deceit over our past?
2. Would embracing Northern Ireland mean no more union flags and replacement of the loyalist rag as our national flag to something neutral such as a green fag with golden harp as one unionist suggested here?
3. Will the English anthem remain or will we have a new anthem?
4. Would there be an Irish Language Act for the new Northern Ireland since it is still our traditional native tongue?
5. How will Irish republicans fit into this new Northern Ireland? Will there be a new passport for Northern Ireland, will we still be eligible for an Irish passport or will have to accept a British identity? Are we no longer going to be native Irish citizens but treated no differently within Ireland than the Irish diaspora throughout the planet, as I have said all along was coming? Anyone born after 1998 whose parents qualify but do not have an Irish passport, will in time be no longer entitled to one if born in Northern Ireland.
I want to make my feelings very clear about this. I will not support a Northern Ireland country. I will reject our young people who do and be ashamed of them. The people in the south do have a say in this, I know there are many who have supported us in the past. I beg of you, don’t abandon us now.
Is this really what we want?
My humble opinion on the questions you asked Jessica
1.) I don’t really see how seeking justice and accepting Northern Ireland as a country are related.
2.) As NI would still be in the UK our flag would still be the union jack. Along with this however I would like to see another flag to represent NI in the same way Wales and Scotland have there own flags. The current NI with the red hand and crown isn’t appropriate.
Maybe the cross of St Patrick would be better.
3.) No GSTQ is the national anthem of the UK. In occasions were NI is operating away from the UK e.g. sports I would like a different anthem. Danny boy is often cited but I don’t really like the tune. It reminds me of Americans who think they are still Irish.
4.)What exactly would an Irish Language act entail? cant make a judgement on that till I hear details.
3.) I would keep the current arrangements with passports
That is pretty much what I thought Scott.
You have restored my faith in unionism, such as it is.
Not an inch then
So are you advocating an independent NI now Jessica or just giving NI the title of a country within the UK?
“So are you advocating an independent NI now Jessica or just giving NI the title of a country within the UK?”
You have made it clear what type of country you want it to be Scott.
British collusion will not be acknowledged by the state and should be swept under the carpet.
No unionist acknowledgement of its role in starting the conflict
The union jack will be the flag.
The English anthem should remain the anthem
An Irish language act would give status to the language and a commitment to guarantee its survival by the state would not be supported.
We would travel under British passports.
No need to discuss any of these things with nationalists, Britain is the military occupier and owns the media therefore lets just implement it anyway.
Well don’t be surprised when you are told where you can shove your country, your flag and your anthem.
Well I am a unionist so keeping the Union flag and the United kingdoms national anthem GSTQ is what I want. Although I must add that they are a long way from the top of my priorities.
I wouldn’t say I’m a “not a inch” Unionist. I’m am advocating scrapping of the Ulster banner for a more appropriate flag i.e the cross of St Patrick. I’m also supporting a NI anthem which would be acceptable by both communities. If flags and symbols are important to people I think they are important concessions.
The Irish language act I have no particular problem with, but as I say unless I know the details it’s impossible to judge. If you have a link to a draft of the bill I love to read it but I can’t find any online. This is a failing of SF not to even develop a draft for people to read which shows how serious they are about it.
You consider this unreasonable Jessica?
I have said several time now my view on state collusion, but I’ll state it again. Anyone involved in collusion or cover ups of murders should be pursued by the police and brought to justice through the courts.
“You consider this unreasonable Jessica?”
I would consider it reasonable to have a full and inclusive discussion on how we live together in these islands, not limiting the topics to flags and anthems but to address how we can truly build an equal society.
If you mean would I consider keeping things as they are and simply changing the flag to the cross of St Patrick and an alternative anthem, they would be a big step in the right direction but why not have a full resolution, a full truth and reconciliation forum, get everything out in the open and sort everything out once and for all?
“I have said several time now my view on state collusion, but I’ll state it again. Anyone involved in collusion or cover ups of murders should be pursued by the police and brought to justice through the courts.”
How can they be pursued by the police if the state refuses to release evidence? That is typical unionist cop out.
Do you support releasing all evidence and dropping the national security for all events over 30 years ago immediately?
Surely after 30 years it is no longer a matter of national security?
Well if a full settlement of all the issues of NI could be found I would of course be all for that but it’s a bit idealist that there is a solution that will please everyone. All we can do is try and find solutions, however the people polarised on both sides make that very difficult.
I don’t know what the evidence is Jessica so I don’t know if it’s sensitive to national security. Maybe the best option would be to have an independent body such as the EU court for human rights deciding if it’s to sensitive to national security to be released. But certainly if it’s not sensitive to security then it should be opened up.
“So are you advocating an independent NI now Jessica or just giving NI the title of a country within the UK?”
I would be happy to discuss seriously any independence from Britain with zero preconditions.
Would you?
To be honest I would support reunification before I would support a independent NI.
Judging are political leaders they are incapable of effective government.
Also our finances are too weak for independence. The ten billion deficit is something that couldn’t be filled easily and the tax rises and cuts that would be needed would be devastating.
“Also our finances are too weak for independence. The ten billion deficit is something that couldn’t be filled easily and the tax rises and cuts that would be needed would be devastating.”
The public sector job cuts are happening anyway and the block grant will continue go down accordingly as a result to ensure they are implemented.
In the event of an agreed settlement, Ulster could be self sufficient and could have a positive GDP. We do not have to be reliant on anyone and indeed I do not want to be reliant on London or Dublin. Ulster could be the wealthiest part of Ireland if we could sort ourselves out.
Unity would also be my preference, duplication of administration on a small island is ridiculous and I would love to see full integration of all island health, education, water and road services etc.. and a unified tourism as well as becoming self sufficient in renewable energy. Division is a waste of money and what happens when England decides no longer to pay?
Points 1, 2 and 3 are the hurdles that prevent nationalists/republicans accepting Northern Ireland. Until the wrongs of the past are acknowledged, by British and Unionist as well as by Nationalist and Republican and till parity of esteem is reflected in the symbols of state, language, flags and anthem, there can be no forgiveness for the wrongs perpetrated in the past.
I have yet to hear a unionist politician admit that unionists misruled for 50 years. Likewise, unionist intransigence on language, flags and anthem indicates their absolute denial of any wrongdoing, past or present.
I, for one, can never acknowledge such a Northern Ireland as a place to which I want to belong. Although born in NI, I prefer to carry my Irish passport till I can be an equal, proud citizen of the NI statelet.
It won’t happen in my lifetime but I’d like to think my grandchildren may see it..
Unionists cannot comprehend the words “parity of esteem” Mary Jo.
Scott has proven he is no different.
If a sectarian state is what they want, that is what we should give them.
I understand your frustration Jessica – fundamental rework is required all round, but I don’t think an independent NI is the answer.
In line with returning power to the localities where it belongs a UI with four strong provincial parliaments would be an attractive proposition for a lot of people.
One for Ulster (proper Ulster – not the six counties) and and for each of the other four provinces.
A federal parliament in Dublin would still be needed for international affairs and defense, etc. but the provincial parliaments should have strong powers in things like health, education etc. including limited tax raising abilities.
Ulster would be able to preserve its own identity (including like it or not marching rights, special anthems, even maybe UK passports if desired) – while bringing in long suffering counties like Donegal from the cold
The other provinces get to take back some of the power from the seriously incompetent and often corrupt Dail who so seldom act in their interests.
Pretty radical changes – but a fleshed out proposal would make an interesting backdrop to an all Ireland referendum.
I would have no problem with any of that Jud.
But no one wants to talk about an agreed settlement.
The more this Northern Ireland entity is pushed onto me, the more I despise everyone who embraces it.
There will be families divided over this.
Jessica
As Jude often says ‘I feel your pain’.
The truth is that Sinn Feins’ duplicitous pro-British, ‘status -quo’ agenda, was put in place using the Good Friday ‘Wordcraft’ agreement.
It was a carefully choreographed exercise in self-denial, where Republican ideals were traded for the trappings of political serfdom and a ‘cushy’ pension at the end.
The treacherous Palestinian Authority have been engaged in a similar arrangement with their jewish masters in IsraHell for many years.
This is how imperialism entraps its often ‘willing’ victims, who have become tired of ‘struggle with principles’ and are worn down incrementally with attrition and the allure of ‘pieces of khazarian silver’.
In that sense they all become unwilling ‘agents of the state’.
Show me one example of one great leader in a so called ‘democracy’ who has not buckled under the power of the ‘Money-masters’.
Northern Ireland IS a ‘country’ – because Lloyd Blankfein, of Goldman Sachs says so.
Until he changes his mind -it will remain so.
Ask Gerry Adams.
Jessica…. I can see what you are getting at in that you will never support a separate Northern Ireland as completely new “Wee Country” and you you’ve said many times before that you feel abandoned by the Irish living in the Republic. My impression is that you ‘d really like to make them feel guilty for this and maybe make them have a bit of a re-think and that you’d disdain anyone in the north for choosing to be a separate country. That’s a fair enough point of view but I think we will all have to accept that here in the northern bit of Ireland, which I refer to as “Norneverland”, we really have been abandoned a very long time ago and I can’t really see that changing in any radical way. There’s no heart down there for “rescuing” us and hugging us to their bosom . When we were really in trouble in the late 1960’s and very early 1970’s they made some of the right noises and even got to the stage where it looked very much like they might take that final breath and actually intervene……but it didn’t happen.When Northern Ireland was set up by threat of armed insurrection by unionists in six heavily -loaded and manageable six counties of nine county Ulster , we were abandoned.That’s it …..and that’s all she wrote.
It may well be Sinn Fein’s plan to wait it out until they have a majority of republicans versus unionists and pull that same trick that unionists pulled when they originally set up the state in their own favour…but I doubt it…and by then it mightn’t matter too much what we call ourselves…..or what country and by what flag we care to name it …..or come to that …what rousing tune or football team we care to be identified by …It’ll not change the facts of our abandonment of course but we might begin to feel a little better about ourselves..when the game is more evenly matched.Something is telling me that joining up again with a partner who shunned you originally might not work out too well either.Who needs those kinds of friends anyway? On the other hand Sinn Fein, as a possible future majority party in both parts of the island, might turn to unionism and the Dublin Britons and say ….Look here …this is how you treat with equanimity…. a minority in your country …and then proceed to lay the groundwork for engaging everyone in an all -Ireland New Republic with an entirely new storyline. The whole island nation might then need an entirely new flag, national anthem and all the other gubbins which allows people to identify entirely with a state.
At the moment there are at least three ….and possibly many more “identities” on the island.If ,on the other hand, some citizens might prefer to live under a monarchial system such as in the UK , they might be happier taking that boat or plane to England as many have done before them. Many have made a great little life for themselves in the cities of Britain after all and it’s not as if there is no freedom of movement between the two islands. I’ve plenty of friends , family and various relations who made that journey and never came back.
“My impression is that you ‘d really like to make them feel guilty for this and maybe make them have a bit of a re-think and that you’d disdain anyone in the north for choosing to be a separate country. ”
Not quite, I would be open to a separate Northern Ireland if it came about from an honest debate throughout this island on what would be best for all of our people, unionists included. But what hope do you hold out for peace on this island while Britain remain and Irish aspirations are ignored, while Dublin snubs nationalism and panders to unionism, while Britain fight tooth and nail to deny collusion, while Dublin does its best to ignore collusion, while unionists snub reconciliation and maintain a never never approach to Irish identity and refuse even to facilitate debate over what our people want.
And yes, I do feel abandoned by the people in the south as do most people I know. Am I wrong to expect some effort from Dublin to promote Irish unity?
It is up to them whether or not they feel guilty about it.
“Something is telling me that joining up again with a partner who shunned you originally might not work out too well either. Who needs those kinds of friends anyway?”
I have no problem with the south building its economy and leaving the north to deal with unionism and a superior British army. I spent a lot of time there when I was younger and while there was always be grudgers who sided with the English, I always found good people who felt as passionate as I did about removing the remaining British scourge from this island. Today, such people are few and far between.
England has bought Irelands soul. We need to fight to get it back.
“The whole island nation might then need an entirely new flag, national anthem and all the other gubbins which allows people to identify entirely with a state.”
That is for another generation to decide, but while there is breath in my body I will support only the 32 county Irish nation I grew up with regardless of what states exist within it. If the Irish people do not think that is worth fighting for at the moment, then I know it is only a matter of time until England shows its true colours towards Ireland once again. And if even then they reject us, then I will die with a sad heart, but I will not support any Northern Ireland within the UK.
“Northern Ireland” like “The United Kingdom” is a misnomer.Some Unionists describe it as a
“Province”, which it is not. The self-styled “statesman” Brian Faulkner used describe it as a Country. When James Callaghan spoke of “Her Majesty’s Government” Faulkner retorted
that he himself was one of Her Majesty’s Ministers. In 1949 Attlee, through a Government of Ireland Act fraudulently vested Sovereignty over the disputed area in the “Parliament of Northern Ireland” which was blown away like a Little Pig’s house of straw by the Big Bad Wolf of Westminster.
In fact the Little Piggies live in a Statelet, and squeal how they will, they’ve been stuck with it.
As a fully signed-up pedant, I believe that both Unionists and Republicans are equally inaccurate in the terminology they use to describe this place. Ulster and “The Province” clearly have no meaning as three of the counties are part of another state. But “the North” and the “North of Ireland” are equally meaningless as at least Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal and possibly Louth and Leitrim would be included in most definitions of “The North,” but these counties lie outside the jurisdiction of the Northern executive.
Good point, Willie D.
And what does that actually say, so wrong we cant even give the place a name.
‘ Should Northern Ireland be a Country?’ by Jessica McGann
Jessica, you could have saved yourself a lot of time, and my failing eyesight (too many bright screens theses days), if you’d just written, “No!”
Contrary to you, and your views (I’ll use your own words):
“I want to make my feelings very clear about this. I will not support a Northern Ireland country. I will reject our young people who do and be ashamed of them.”
This Unionist respects the right of the Republic of Ireland to exist; he respects the right of Sinn Fein, and anyone else to argue for it; he respects the right of others to oppose the British at every turn; and even their right to use pejorative language such as, “loyalist rag”, and the pathetic ‘you started it’ (“have never acknowledged their role in starting the conflict”); I respect your right to your views and your right to express them; and I do not reject any of ‘my own’ community, nor am I ashamed of any who seek a United Republican Ireland.
Odd, isn’t it?
PF, all very nice but would you support an official appraisal and review joint paid for by Dublin and Stormont, to establish whether or not unification would lead to all of our people being better off financially, would offer better growth opportunity throughout this island, would reduce operational costs, energy costs, provide a better health service and at the same time improve the relationship between these two islands and on this one?
I would accept this, and also accept the will of the people in the north if afforded such an informed choice to choose what future they want even if a northern Ireland within the UK was the outcome.
Would you?
All, very nice indeed, Jessica. As is your improved tone – one never knows where the change from making assertions to asking questions might lead.
But why must I accept your suggestion?
Nothing wrong, of course, with making the suggestion you have made, there might be some merit in it (a kind of mini-Brexit – us leaving Britain, that is), but other suggestions could be made. It would be an interesting exercise, but must I accept yours to be deemed acceptable?
I might, for example, suggest a similar “official appraisal and review”, one paid for by London, Dublin and Stormont, to establish whether or not the continuation of the UK, and the Republic’s inclusion in it, would lead to all of our people being better off financially, would offer better growth opportunity throughout this island, would reduce operational costs, energy costs, provide a better health service and at the same time improve the relationship between these two islands and on this one?
We could have a New Eire: A United Ireland in a United Kingdom. I’d accept that.
Why not put all the options on the table?
Would you accept that?
Why not call into question the continuation of the Republic of Ireland as much as that of Northern Ireland? After all, a United Ireland would significantly change the political dynamic of the Republic – do they really want any of us?
And as for all these choices and the will of the people and whether or not Northern Ireland should ever have come into being in the first place, well, I seem to recall that the most recent voice exercised by all of the people of Ireland, and that which relates to the political identity of the whole island, occurred in 1998, and the result in Northern Ireland – 71.1% in favour, while the simultaneous referendum held in the Republic of Ireland was 94.4%… in favour of the current political agreement. Not that I like it, and I accept it reluctantly – I never was much in favour of promoting terrorists (Republican or Loyalist) to government – but it was the will of Ireland.
So what’s all this about accepting the will of the Irish people?
“We could have a New Eire: A United Ireland in a United Kingdom. I’d accept that. Why not put all the options on the table? Would you accept that?”
Yes of course I would, I would welcome it and I agree with you that all options should be on the table.
That would be perfectly acceptable to a majority on this island.
“Why not call into question the continuation of the Republic of Ireland as much as that of Northern Ireland? After all, a United Ireland would significantly change the political dynamic of the Republic – do they really want any of us?”
It would have to be a new Ireland PF. An agreed Ireland that everyone is comfortable with.
No one could describe it until we talk about it, but it has to be fully inclusive. Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will always be divided otherwise.
“Not that I like it, and I accept it reluctantly – I never was much in favour of promoting terrorists (Republican or Loyalist) to government – but it was the will of Ireland.”
I consider the British state and unionism to be terrorists, I consider working class loyalists who were sucked into doing the will of the unionist leaders as victims.
There is more than one point of view on this island. There must be compromise.
“So what’s all this about accepting the will of the Irish people?”
The GFA was a vote for peace and an end of the killing. It was the first step in the process, but there are more steps to take.
All such steps need to have the backing of the whole island just as the GFA did. Why stop the process when it isn’t complete and there would be more benefits we could gain? Look at the difference it has made already, why stop now?
Jessica
First of all thank you for your comments.
Following that, you are the first Nationalist? Republican? I have encountered who is at least willing to recognise that a United Ireland in a United Kingdom is an option. Why my fellow Unionists, particularly Unionist politicians, don’t pursue this line of thinking is beyond me. Perhaps there is too much ‘Northern Ireland Nationalism’ around – I care little for it. You may find it interesting that identifying as British and Unionist is one of the reasons I refuse to vote DUP; it is also one of the reasons I am opposed to the various forms of devolution around the UK.
Personally I think there is much merit in the idea of a United Ireland in a United Kingdom – there is much more to unite the peoples of these islands than to divide them, and there is no reason why the diversity of the islands could not be reflected in a new national parliament and regional government based on county councils and to the economic benefit of the Irish, Scots, Welsh and English. That kind of (British and Irish) Western European Union makes more cultural sense to me than the current, and undemocratic European Superstate being promoted across the continent.
On the issue of terrorism, it may be best if we say little – I suspect there will be scant agreement between us, but I will say this: clearly the IRA, UVF (and other Loyalist terror organisations) committed murder. Beyond that if any of the State forces of these Isles (British or Irish) were involved in criminal acts they should be held accountable to the law and judged accordingly. I have no hesitation is saying that. What, however, I think profits us little, is an endless round of ‘official enquires’ in which we seek to tell a version of events which can only ever please some. In any civilised society, truth must be based on evidence, law and justice – that protects us all.
You may have your United Ireland some day, Jessica, I suspect it may even be in my lifetime – as a Unionist, I trust that it is one in which all the peoples of these British Isles will be reunited.
A re-United Kingdom! It has a certain ring to it, don’t you think!
There is not much point in talking if we rule something out before we begin PF.
“Perhaps there is too much ‘Northern Ireland Nationalism’ around – I care little for it. ”
I respect that and understand that completely PF.
We grew up on opposite sides in a conflict and all have our own experiences and baggage over it.
I think nationalism, republicanism, unionism and loyalism all need to end. We are either Irish or British and that should be enough.
I keep getting told on this site I am not a republican and am starting to believe it.
On a new UK.
A respectful union between all of the nations on these two islands would be to all our advantages.
It may not be called the UK, I heard they were considering renaming the British isles. Perhaps a new union of these islands would have a new name and a new identity for all.
I would actually like it to be an alternative version of the EU with 4 independent nations, each electing to an overall council which lets face it will sit in London. I would like it to be outside of the EU which I consider a bad thing.
What if instead of being in the EU, the nations of the commonwealth formed a new federal union, Canada, Australia, we may even persuade the US to join and there would be one trade agreement between the EU and the others which we would be part off.
What I do know, is I hate living in a sectarian state separate from the rest of my country and relying on hand outs from the state that oppressed my community growing up. I want Ireland to be a prosperous and fair nation and I want to be part of it.
At the moment, I don’t feel a part of any country.
As for terrorism, we will not agree on it until there is an end to disclosure over national security. How can you believe nationalists who lived through state terror when the state inflicting it denies it outright?
Through peace there is opportunity, but it will require the British state to make more effort on closing this gap. There should be no need for a single inquiry.
If we could complete the truth and reconciliation process we would have such a future together on these islands.
Without full disclosure on all sides, that future cannot be realised.
I think that is what Sinn Fein have decided. To allow unionism to come to terms with it in its own time and to still have the hand of friendship there for when they do.
I am a weaker soul unfortunately and have my moments. It is unusually just rants to get it out of my system.
“You may have your United Ireland some day, Jessica, I suspect it may even be in my lifetime – as a Unionist, I trust that it is one in which all the peoples of these British Isles will be reunited. A re-United Kingdom! It has a certain ring to it, don’t you think!”
I think it is heading that way anyway. The train will be in the station and we in the north will still be arguing over whether or not to get on.
I would prefer to see a closer relationship with the UK than with the EU.
“Full disclosure on all sides”.
I doubt we’re getting that.
“I keep getting told on this site I am not a republican and am starting to believe it.”
Given what you have said to me, I’m not surprised you are told this. I would have thought that even using the word, ‘Commonwealth’, never mind positively, would put you outside the camp.
And I had never thought that what I have said about a United Ireland and a United Kingdom would be considered acceptable by anyone in the nationalist community – I learned something new this week.
Thank you.
“Given what you have said to me, I’m not surprised you are told this. I would have thought that even using the word, ‘Commonwealth’, never mind positively, would put you outside the camp.”
Don’t need to worry about me PF. I wear my heart on my sleeve.
But on the commonwealth when the queen steps down, it could well contract. The union between England and Scotland is breaking down and the north will likely split first.
England will always put its own economic needs first. A union with other nations would keep these islands together and rival the EU as an economic superpower.
“And I had never thought that what I have said about a United Ireland and a United Kingdom would be considered acceptable by anyone in the nationalist community – I learned something new this week. Thank you.”
See where talking gets us.
There should be no preconditions to any talks.