So – watch the footie last night? I mean of course the game between Northern Ireland and the Ukraine. I didn’t – no, that’s not strictly true. I watched parts of it. I saw the replay of the first NI goal, I missed the second goal, and I watched the cavorting, cart-wheeling delight at the end. So I tweeted and FBed:
“Well done the NI team – terrific goal (I missed the second) and a well-earned victory. It doesn’t get any sweeter than this, I’d say…”
The response? my tweet was noted and retweeted by a fair number of twitterers, including some who, let’s say, I wouldn’t harmonize with in political terms. On FB, I got “Fuck off, Jude!” “I can’t agree – sorry, Jude”, “Boke” and an assorted series of comments that were critical of the NI team’s existence. I did get one positive comment from a unionist I know, who thanked me for my “gracious” comment and wished the RoI equal good fortune on Saturday.
I accept the right of everyone to have a view on these things but I also accept my own right to differ. When people do something really well, I try to note it and, where possible, to congratulate the person. There are far too many begrudgers, in small things and big, who can’t bring themselves to encourage excellence. And the fact is that NI last night played very well. That first goal was a beauty, and the second was pretty tidy too. Why not say so? And the NI fans were in transports of joy – why not delight in that too? Assuming you weren’t a Ukraine supporter.
That doesn’t mean I don’t believe there should be one Irish team. (If there were, we’d have one draw and a win by now – through to the next round…Yes, I know Virginia, that’s mad talk, but still…) It doesn’t mean that I support the NI team. When the Italians played Belgium off the park, I roared them on – Perfecto! It doesn’t mean I didn’t delight in the final German goal scored by Schweinsteiger against the Ukraine – Wunderbar! Providing they’re not playing a team I support, I take great pleasure in watching the ecstasy of fans when their team does the business. And I felt a particular delight in the NI team beating the odds and taking out the Ukraine team last night.
That doesn’t mean I believe the Northern Ireland state is a really good idea, or that I like being under Mother Britain’s wing (warm but very unhygienic) or that I wouldn’t welcome a referendum on partition. But to detest the NI team – not the NI state, not some of the obnoxious NI supporters, not the playing God Save The Queen, not the sectarian chanting – to detest a team that did a stunning night’s work – that’s small-minded of some nationalists/republicans. So small-minded that I feel slightly soiled. Do they think their contempt and begrudgery moves us towards an end to partition? Maybe they should ask themselves “Besides slagging off the NI team, what have I done over the last year to further nationalist/republican aspirations?”
Footnote: my clever cousin Daniel observes that the scorer of the second NI goal, Niall McGinn, lined out with the Tyrone GAA Minors team in 2004 (won the Ulster and All-Ireland championship) and that he played for Derry City FC in 2009.
Yesterday, Esteemed Blogmeister, a new high-lily, high-lo was reached in the Fabulous History of Forelock Tugging in Bordeaux.
When it was reported, from down in Kilkenny to Penny Lane, that the Best Fans in the World, having already serenaded a nun on the train with a clap-happy chant of ‘Our Father’, to changing the tyre of a perfect French stranger (all etrangers are parfait) next rolled up their sleeveens and took it manfully upon themselves to clean up the litter-cluttered boulevards of Bordeaux.
Our Nation is all Aglow
In Bordeaux our Republic roadshow
Showed their know-how to kowtow
With big black bin bags
And fawn-coloured flags
Quietly desperate to impress, a la Thoreau.
It’s not forelock tugging Perkin. It’s an inspired and devious campaign to make the English look bad.
‘A devious campaign to make the English look bad’ – surely the English don’t need help from anybody in that endeavour!
“It’s an inspired and devious campaign to make the English look bad.”
I think the English rioting for 3 days straight, punching a French pensioner who was appealing for calm (all caught on camera) and chanting sectarian and offensive slogans about Germans, the Irish and the Russians did that, BYC……compare that to the behaviour of the Irish fans who tidied up their beer cans/rubbish, changed the wheel of a French pensioners car and had a “Love Riot” with Swedish fans…..
It doesn’t make you more British to be a supporter of English hooligans BYC…..other Unionists on twitter were foolishly trying to defend English supporters while every English football celebrity from Gary Lineker to Stan Collymore were outraged and harshly condemning the English football fans……
Holy shit. I wasn’t being serious Ryan.
Oh I’m always serious BYC, always……I’d stick out like a sore thumb if I was in Paris amongst those Irish fans, both from the South and the North…..
Well said Jude. Sometimes we can delight in being human and not just Irish.
And yes, two cracking goals that any team would be proud of.
Glad to see you growing up a wee bit!
As regards sectarianism in the GAWA: I was at the game in Nice. (Calm DOWN Jessica, some of us support our wee country!). There were lots of Ulster banners, although they were in a minority compared to flags of the IFA badge. (You know the one: big Celtic cross covered in shamrocks that Irishmen have played for since 1880 – formed at the behest of the Cliftonville Club and representing all Ireland until the bigotry of republicans formed a separate team). As for sectarian singing, over the course of three days, (and a lot of singing) the only evidence of this was a lad from Ballymena who tried to sing “the sash”. He got two lines in before the crowd told him to “shut the F up” and that we “weren’t at a F-ing parade”.
I would be tempted at this point to point to the singing of sectarian songs at ROI games, but there is enough whataboutery on this site.
I also got to meet Pat Jennings! I think he is from Newry? One of my heroes anyway – along with Gerry Armstrong, Martin O’Neill, Michael O’Neill and the current hero, Niall McGiinn. I know Jessica would see them as “traitors”, (the kind of hate speech I find depressing), but I just see them as fellow Ulstermen. It’s the advantage of not being a great big bigot.
Anyway – it’s on to Germany next! My grandfather lost his father at the Somme and his brother was killed in the Belfast Blitz. I am sure I won’t blame the Germans I meet next week in Paris for it: it’s all part of being a grown up.
Jude has taken the first steps, maybe it is time for the others to try?
“I also got to meet Pat Jennings! I think he is from Newry? One of my heroes anyway – along with Gerry Armstrong, Martin O’Neill, Michael O’Neill and the current hero, Niall McGiinn. I know Jessica would see them as “traitors”, ”
I honestly don’t see any of them as traitors Joe
I don’t really think of anyone as a traitor. We all have points of view which usually change throughout our lives as they are based on our experiences.
None of us are always right, so I choose to speak my mind on this site as I would not get away with it in day to day life.
Consider it an exchange of views. We do need to hear the bad things also, either to admit we were wrong or so others can see it is wrong.
I am not trying to be perfect, just honest, I know I have issues, I have always said I consider myself damaged goods but I will take what comes from it. That’s how I learn.
Sometimes I get emotional back flashes and I get mad, most of the time I am in quite good form, honest. 🙂
The majority of people are moving towards accepting one another and apart from a few, most accept some compromise is needed on both sides.
JB “I would be tempted at this point to point to the singing of sectarian songs at ROI games, but there is enough whataboutery on this site.”
You just added to to the whataboutery, JB – out of genuine interest, could you enlighten me to the sectarian songs sang at ROI games?
It’s not just the team Jude – it’s the association and the whole sport that’s doing us all proud. Just thinking about representation of the sport in NI; Oonagh Reilly who does sales and marketing for the IFA and the new stadium is an ex Co Down Gaelic player. Lisa Fallon who does opposition analysis and motivational videos played Camogie for Clondalkin. As everyone knows Michael’s last coaching role before NI was in the League of Ireland.
Whatever increases participation and the development of football (and any sport) as a career and an industry, north or south, is good for all sport across the Island.
Our amateur sports and rugby work because we have provincial leagues and teams – including an Ulster team. I’m not sure how we’d fill the gap that the NI team would leave if we had a united Irish team.
We’ve seven premiership players on the NI squad. Perhaps on paper they could be swapped in for Championship players in the ROI squad but what’s making the NI journey so special is the showcasing of the Scottish premiership, League One and League Two players.
I don’t know how we give that up or if it’s a price worth paying for a united team. I’ll just support both for now; both the team with the Irish born players that looks like the integrated community I want to see and also the other one with Irish people’s English cousins in it.
I don’t like seeing Michael McGovern have to bow his head during the anthem though. The IFA needs to sort that out.
BYC
Wow !
Thanks IFA for giving us ‘croppy lie down’ ‘taigs’ a few ‘token’ jobs in your ‘unionist orange’ football association.
Maybe we can come to your bonfires next..
The point is it’s not my IFA. It’s MIchael O’Neill’s, Oonagh O’Reilly’s, Lisa Fallon’s and everybody or anybody else who wants to get involved’s IFA. You’re clutching at straws something desperate now.
“Maybe we can come to your bonfires next”
We’ll just have to pretend not to see the Irish flags and the stolen Virgin Mary statues amongst the burning tyres and rotten wood, TR…..
Also BYC, Ricky McCann, from UUJ who is a GAA man and handballer who is involved in first team coaching – I genuinely believe the IFA have made very positive change to alter to negative perceptions surrounding NI football – credit where credit is due.
Says a lot about the GAA that’s it churns out all these great community focused coaches too Hist. The Ulster branch (does GAA have branches?) could do a bit of PR with that.
I actually thought the did well also.
I actually felt tweaks of support when they were doing well, but when the camera veered into the supporters and I saw the union jacks and loyalist rags, my emotions dropped though I couldn’t help but feel a spike of delight when the second goal went in.
Confusing!!
At the same time, when they were playing crap against Poland I found myself cheering the Polish goals and attempts. Although it may have been because I was also in the company of a pub full of polskis who were in buoyant form
I suppose that is the confusion you get in a post conflict divided society that rejects a truth and reconciliation process.
That’s Oonagh O’Reilly.
Well said Jude, I wouldn’t worry to much about the detractors on Twitter. They are the sort of people who see everything through the the us versus them mentality.
Thank you, Scott. Given that I’ve learned not to worry what some people say on this site, I can handle just about anything…
Maybe you should ask yourself,jude, what has the 6 county team done over the last 100 years to further nationalist/republican aspirations? They are as relevant as Azerbaijan Rangers even if some of them did play for Raonairí Sinn Féin.
Like charity, fiosrach, I always think activism begins at home, starting with self. I’m not mad about people who think it makes them more Irish or that they’ve done their bit for Ireland when they begrudge the NI team a really good win.
“Maybe you should ask yourself,jude, what has the 6 county team done over the last 100 years to further nationalist/republican aspirations? They are as relevant as Azerbaijan Rangers even if some of them did play for Raonairí Sinn Féin.”
Why should a football team do anything but play football?
Then again, I don’t even know what a republican is according to you. And I probably don’t.
A Christian puts Christ first. A republican puts a republic first. Who knows what a ‘constitutional’ nationalist puts first? I’m only saying, jessica, that you confuse me with a new manifesto every day. That said, I agree with most of what you say – except on a Tuesday (hah).
I do consider myself a Christian fiosrach , but I rarely think about Christ at all never mind putting him first.
I wouldn’t even know how to put him first. What must you think of me?
I consider myself a republican, because I supported the IRA and those who fought to defend my community, I owe no allegiance to any republic or monarchy.
I am not a political movement, I do not have a manifesto. I have like most on this site, an interest in a political solution here but also enjoy the banter and debate. I want a peaceful and agreed future no this island but will not support it at the expense of good republican people just because it is easy for the media and states to demonise them. It is up to the ordinary people to reject this.
Other than that I am quite flexible on the solutions
I don’t think anybody is referring to the footballing skills of the players just as I can acknowledge a good pipe band when I hear one leading an Orange lodge. But I can see behind the Givan speak of the whole “country” coming in behind the team. How would the allies have felt if Germany had played ,say, Poland or Israel during the war? Admired their football skills or hated the whole connection? These people and their whole state apparatus wish that we were like the native Americans – a few pretending to be white men and the rest alcoholics. If I am waving a sectarian banner and singing GSTQ I don’t really care who I offend.
I take your point about the unctuous Mr Givan and ‘the whole country’ – wrong on the whole and wrong on the country
Agus tá mé in amhras ort go bhfuil tú ag meascadh an phota – mi-oiriúnach don pháirt go hiomlán.
Well said Jude.
Jude, a few points. If Northern Ireland were sh1te, there would be pressure for 1 team and certainly more players would opt to play for the Republic – so it is entilely logical to want them to do badly if you support a future singleIrish team.
Also we (as in ROI or Ireland) will be in competition with NI for the 3rd place spot and NI may well tale ‘our place’ in the next round.
Further, I think like the UK we should be allowed 4 teams – one per province – with one overlapping with NI.
Having said all that, NI is Irish, the FAI and the NI fans have done a great job in stamping out sectarianism and they played excellently and as part of our own country (in my definition anyway) I almost found myself cheering them on – but under no circumstances at the expense of the ROI.
ps As a separate point Derry had 4 players in the extended squad before the final squad was picked – possibly a higher per-capita representation than Dublin?
“Jude, a few points. If Northern Ireland were sh1te, there would be pressure for 1 team and certainly more players would opt to play for the Republic”
But Northern Ireland is sh1te Sammy, and so is the Republic’s team to a lesser extent lol I say lesser extent because the Republic has beaten Northern Ireland 6 nil the last time they played each other in 2011 and the Republic has beaten more higher ranked teams than NI has. I’m not just talking about the recent wins over Bosnia and Germany but further back.
It can be reasoned fairly that Northern Ireland only qualified because they had a very easy group. I think Romania was their toughest opponent, the Greek team didn’t even have a manager. Compare that with the Republic’s group which had Germany, Poland and a tough Scotland side. Republic had to beat Bosnia (a good side) in order to qualify.
I’m not putting down anyones team here but the facts speak for themselves. Take a look at NI’s group for the World Cup 2018, do you think they will be there? Of course they could be but I wont be betting on it and many of their fans wont be either. The last time NI was at a tournament was 30 years ago, I wouldn’t be surprised if its another 30 years until they see another one after the Euros.
NI is a “struggling” team. There were NI fans talking yesterday about how they will never forget beating Ukraine. Yes, Ukraine, not Spain or Italy. I’d understand if it was the final of the Euros but that shows that beating a weak team like Ukraine is an achievement….it shows that the NI team, much like the state itself, wont ever be successful. Compare this attitude to what Martin O’Neill said about the Republic’s wins in the qualifying stages “Its the past, move on” and I 100% agree. Many NI supporters still talk about their win over England 12 years ago….I also include the ROI in this too, its very unlikely we will ever win silverware with our current format, we might beat a lot of giants of the sport sometimes but that means nothing. The only way we will ever be in with a chance of actually WINNING is with an All Ireland soccer team.
How exactly could there be an All Ireland team? Does it have to be by referendum or something? The vast majority in the North already support an All Ireland soccer team, including almost 50% of Protestants according to one poll. So the support is there, its just pushing it to make it happen.
Perhaps if some of you ‘gushing’, ‘ecumenical’ ‘inclusive’ sport loving nationalists had been driving down the Shankill road last night after the match, as I was, you would have seen our loving neighbours, ouside their pubs clad in orange regalia, drums under arm (yes drums at a football match) – cheering on their team.
Watch how much they want you to be part of their ‘Northern Ireland team’ – this time next month.
Suckers !
tr
That’s the best you could come up with?
They were beating drums…the horror!!
Gio
Orange Order drums.
The same ones they’ll be playing outside St. Patricks’ Church in a few weeks.
tr
If that happens it will be very wrong.
In the meantime you are judging people for something that hasn’t happened.
All you have reported is people celebrating their football team. Just as will happen on the Falls Rd tomorrow should the result go the same way.
You do seem to be struggling to find something to be offended about.
“In the meantime you are judging people for something that hasn’t happened.”
How many times has it not happened now?
Gio
You can be well assured, that living in North Belfast as a nationalist, I have never had to ‘struggle’ to find something to be ‘offended’ about.
‘Offensive orangeism’ is everywhere!
tr
Yes there is plenty to get upset about I agree.
But people on the Shankill celebrating their football team is hardly one of them.
Good point TR.
I worked in a factory in portadown for 11 years. We got on great most of the year, come the summer especially around the garvaghy road years, it was like Jekyll and Hyde.
I vowed once I would never trust a unionist ever. That would still be my baseline instinct.
Their true colours come out sooner or later and they are always red white and blue.
Jessica
Impeccable judgement.
Now we also have our ‘fifth column’ nationalist NI supporters, to help them hoist their Orange flags.
Pathetic!!
tr and jessica
Yes what with all those nationalists looking to getalong we should clearly never trust a unionist or a nationalist.
Which leaves… errrr…..Eamonn McCann?
You are the one tells us what we should or should not do gio.
Based on my own experiences when so called friends from a unionist background set me up to be killed, I will choose for myself whether or not I will ever trust a unionist again. I doubt very much it would be possible for me even if I tried, hence damaged goods.
But I only speak for myself.
Jude,
On a separate point, I have emailed you a few times on other matters – just wondering if you have received them.
Sammy
I’ll check and get back, Sammy
For those who support the “OWC” team fair play to them to those who don’t (like me) tomorrows the day.
I sincerely hope and pray they lose. The bigger the loss the better. You cannot isolate the existence of this team from the existence of our wee country. In fact that is how it is pitched on the BBC. The British broadcasting company supporting a British team.
If you want to support an irish team then support the Republic of Ireland which is a true community team as it has support from all sections of Ireland and is not a partitionist team which tries it’s best to stop people playing for their country.
Shame to see the likes of Niall McGinn standing to God Save the Queen while the Union flag and other loyalist rags flutter in the wind. You can’t divorce sport from politics in a divided society like ours. Nor can you expect both sides of the community to give allegiance to a team that clearly from it’s emblems and anthem only represents unionism/Britishness. How can I reject the legitimacy of the state and at the same time support a team representing that same state? It wouldn’t make sense.
“You can’t divorce sport from politics in a divided society like ours”
You cant divorce sport from politics in any society lol That’s why international tournaments exist in the first place, its all politics.
It was in the news yesterday again about “Doping” in sports, specifically the Olympics. This time (and not for the first time) the finger of accusation was being pointed at Russian Athletes. The reality is all major countries like the USA, China, Russia, etc are involved in doping their Athletes. Why? Well the main reason is because they cant afford to look bad on the World stage, so they are willing to cheat in order to stop that. Doping is rampant in sport. As I said before about Leicester, don’t be surprised if revelations are exposed in years to come. What’s the odd’s of Jamie Vardy just suddenly having a huge spurt of goal scoring talent?…..the odds were literally 1 in 5000 of Leicester winning the League and they did…..my ears pricked up and eye’s narrowed when Leicester started playing so well.
The both NI and ROI fans seem to be separating sport and politics successfully Ryan.
No politics in sight from what I can see Just football, beer and craic.
It’s all down to wether you choose to bring politics into it. It’s a choice my friend
“The both NI and ROI fans seem to be separating sport and politics successfully”
If you don’t consider the loyalist rags and butchers apron political I suppose.
They turn my stomach though
That’s your hang up Jessica, the fans certainly don’t seem to mind.
“That’s your hang up Jessica, the fans certainly don’t seem to mind.”
Yep, must be just me then Scott.
We wouldn’t want there to be a problem that unionism might have to address now would we?
“The both NI and ROI fans seem to be separating sport and politics successfully Ryan.”
I think your milking it a little there Scott. I would agree with you that ROI and NI fans have been getting along quite well in France and I was genuinely worried about the reaction if both came into contact with each other but thankfully all is well.
We’re talking about an international tournament here where countries play against each other, so its very political. If you shared a pint with Ukrainian fans whilst Russia was playing I’m sure they would be backing whoever Russia was playing against due to the political difficulties between Russia and Ukraine over the past few years. I could give other countless examples.
Its just my opinion Sport and Politics is inseparable, certainly when it comes to International tournaments. Doesn’t the rivalry between Celtic and Rangers have its roots in politics?
” It’s a choice my friend”
You may have a point but some Philosophers argue that “Choice” is an illusion…..
Irish fans typically are well behaved no matter what part of the island they are from.
Even on summer holidays, we have always got on together. It isn’t until we return to the contaminated 6 that divisions are invoked once more.
You can certainly find political connections if you CHOOSE to look hard enough, but it’s certainly doesn’t seem to be the primary motivating factor of the supporters Ryan.
As for the whole philosophers saying there’s no such thing as choice………… It’s a little beyond me mate.
“As for the whole philosophers saying there’s no such thing as choice………… It’s a little beyond me mate.”
Choice is usually made based on experiences which can be influenced and therefore how do we know our choice is truly our own and has not been influenced by others.
Sort of thing.
That’s all little heady for my tastes Jessica.
Kinda like if a tree falls in the woods and no ones around to hear it does it make a sound???
It’s all a little abstract for me, possibly it’s just my simplistic mind.
Don’t put yourself down Scott, the answer is there if you think about it.
Since we know the physical requirements for sound which travels in waves requiring an atmosphere, and we know that both tree and person to hear it also require an atmosphere, we can be certain that the tree falling did indeed make multiple sounds while falling in the woods.
What we wont know is the intensity of the sounds made as additional data would be required.
jessica
I have to disagree. Sound only becomes sound when it is received, so if there is no ear in the forest to hear it there is no sound.
Of course any squirrels nearby would hear it I suppose.
In mathematics that is known as the ‘squirrel route of tree.’
“In mathematics that is known as the ‘squirrel route of tree.’”
That is just nuts gio
Gio and Jessica this has gone beyond bizarre.
Although it did give a proper laugh.lol.
Diarmaid
You are overthinking it.
Wishing the team well won’t somehow turn you into a unionist’
Even standing still for GSTQ cannot actually infect you with the orange gene.
Lighten up maybe.
No thinking is required gio but you wouldn’t understand.
jessica
I prefer to think a bit, but that’s just me
You would not understand.
Oh I do, all head no heart
jessica
I will have you know I cry over ‘It’s a Wonderful Life’ every Christmas.
Awk, God bless your cotton socks gio.
I missed the start but I can only imagine how humiliating its must feel, but as you say, it is a unionist/British team so he knew what he was getting into.
I suppose it wont do his career any harm though, perhaps that is his priority.
“How can I reject the legitimacy of the state and at the same time support a team representing that same state? ”
I agree, I find it almost impossible. Any wonder the south consider the north to be a British only state.
Sorry Jude I’ll have to disagree.while you’re correct in that they were good goals the simple fact is that they’re mainly representative of one side of our still divided community.Waving n Ireland flags and inserting Ulster(only 6 counties) into their songs does little to endear their support to me.I simply can’t accept that these 6 counties are a country
Nor me, MC – I’m simply saying they played a bloody good game and deserve congratulations for that.
I watched the game and NI’s performance definitely improved. I felt Ukraine didn’t show up on the day, they played better when playing against the Germans despite losing 2 nil then too. Their terrible defending and a lack of taking chances cost them the game. NI definitely had a more attacking style and that’s the way they should’ve played against Poland though I still think Poland would’ve won that one but who knows? things could’ve been different. If NI play like they did yesterday then they could be in with a chance against the Germans, if the ROI did it during the qualifiers then maybe NI can do the same or at least get a draw.
Does this mean I now support the NI team because they won? No, nothing has changed. As I said before the Euros even started I wished the team well, I’m really indifferent to the outcomes of their games, win, lose or draw. I’m firmly behind my own team and that is the Republic of Ireland. Is this “bitterness” or “sad”? No. Putting aside the history of sectarianism of the NI Team/supporters and all that stuff, I just don’t identify with the NI Team and most likely never will. I understand that others DO identify with the NI Team and I respect that but I also expect reciprocation in return and I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
The ROI play Belgium tomorrow and NI is up against the Germans next week. Both teams are definitely the under dog in those two games. But I wonder how much the odds would be slashed if we had one Irish team playing against Germany or Belgium?…..
A question for BBC Radio Ulster.
Why are all big games in soccer and rugby transmitted on good quality
FM but Gaelic matches , such as Tyrone v Cavan this Sunday , transmitted
on poorer quality medium wave ?
I dont think there should be any criticism of individual players because they are standing to an anthem.
Unionist players in Ireland’s rugby team have to listen to a ‘foreign’ anthem as far as they are concerned. Irish rugby should drop the anthem and flags etc and I think it is only a matter of time before NI get themselves their own anthem.
Jude, did you realise NI progress may be at ROI’s expense when you tweeted – I’m guessing you didn’t or else deep shame on you(lol).
That doesn’t mean I don’t believe there should be one Irish team. (If there were, we’d have one draw and a win by now – through to the next round…Yes, I know Virginia, that’s mad talk, but still…)
Jude, you do know that the Republic of Ireland team are ranked lower than Northern Ireland team? 1 defeat and 1 draw is what is say. 😉
If there was to be a united Irish team, the cupboard would be considerably less bare when it comes to silverware and they would not have to wait in 20-30 year cycles before they pull off convincing victories against the major world teams.
“Jude, you do know that the Republic of Ireland team are ranked lower than Northern Ireland team? 1 defeat and 1 draw is what is say. ;-)”
United we stand, divided we fall.