They say politics and sport do not mix, but can the two really be separated? A sporting event should be a contest between dedicated individuals who have worked long and hard to hone their abilities and wish to put their prowess to the test against other similarly matched individuals hopefully to experience the satisfaction of knowing their efforts have paid off and they are the best in their field. Competitiveness is part of human nature. But so too is the social construct.
Individuals who choose to live in isolation outside of what is common whether for sub-human reasons or because they are so self-sufficient they do not need to and for whatever reason have chosen not to, are not the norm. Establishing social networks could therefore be considered a primal instinct in our race, often matched by class in the modern world where we group ourselves with people of similar commonalities. Not surprising then that this leads to a sense of national identity, recognizing commonalities such as having common descent and common destiny, people identify with beliefs, values, assumptions and expectations leading to a self-categorization and acceptance of belonging to a particular group.
This sense of identity can be a good thing, engendering positive emotions such as pride and love to one’s nation, as well as feeling of obligations toward other citizens. But what about other aspects of human nature, such as our competitiveness. Once a social network has been established, other networks may have a lot in common or may differ greatly which can lead to a them and us syndrome. Within that overarching national identity, there are also various sub identities or communities with similar traits.
When a community comes under threat or has a common enemy, it often unites the people within that community and enhances feelings of national identity.
The people of Ireland have been divided for many centuries since the conquest by England who created a ruling class with the wealthier land owners living a different existence to the poor having quite often confiscated land rather than earned it or purchased it. Societies rely on politics and laws to prevent this abuse of power, to establish democracy and a semblance of equality for society. Failure to do so can result in a community feeling under threat and the perception of a common enemy can result in that community coming together in a common cause, where the introduction of violence into the mix as we well know can lead to conflict and war.
Unionism has always provided that division within Ireland, and on every occasion when democracy and social demographics have threatened that supremacy and divisions continued existence, unionism has always reacted violently. Always. But conflict has polarised our communities, and while the conflict has since ended, it will take time for the hurt caused to heal. I suppose the ability to keep politics out of sport is in many ways a barometer of how far we have gone in healing political hurts.
For many, the peace process is very slow and unionism struggles to move away from its not an inch policies of the past, though declining numbers and aging population have left it much more impotent than it was in the virile days of Paisley’s puppet master control over the mobs in calling unionists to the streets to oppose civil rights for Catholics.
I think Northern Ireland’s humiliating loss against Poland softened many nationalists including myself and I found myself (internally) cheering their goals against Ukraine if a camera veer to the crowds revealing the union jack flags and loyalist rags put the shields back up on full.
While it is indeed commendable for the IFA to try and stamp out sectarianism to encourage more Catholics to Windsor Park, it is in fact politicising Northern Ireland team. Traditionally, the Catholic community has supported the ROI team so while they are perfectly entitled to try to reach out to us, it is political.
But is it fair to remove GSTQ as the anthem or to produce a new flag? Would it still represent unionists British identity if we did? I also don’t like the Rugby team refusing to play their anthem. My preference would be to leave two Irish teams, one representing the British community and the other the Irish community. Keep things as they are and eventually, when our political leaders can treat one another with respect, we will respect both teams place.
But try to tell me the Northern Ireland team represents me and the ROI team doesn’t, that is completely political and will make me reject the Northern Ireland and the NI team outright which is unfair to the players.
That is the real politicisation of sport: using it to enforce an identity on people who do not want it.
“I think Northern Ireland’s humiliating loss against Poland …”
Why do you think it was humiliating?
“Why do you think it was humiliating?”
I am not a regular follower of soccer but I just don’t think they tried in the first game.
They won the next match because they played with passion and worked together as a team.
That is all we can ask for in my opinion.
Fair enough Jessica. But in most sports (all other team sports?) we are one nation. For me NI goes in the same slot as Ulster Rugby and ROI just stands for Rest of Ireland. Partitioned football’s the price we pay to see something like top flight football in Belfast.
I can certainly see why a nationalist who wasn’t within a drive of Belfast wouldn’t see any benefit at all in an NI team.
If there were a Belfast based team in the English Premiership or Championship Cardiff/Swansea style I think you’d see a more open consideration of a single Irish team.
“Partitioned football’s the price we pay to see something like top flight football in Belfast. ”
Not sure I follow that, surely the top teams which are Derry, Dundalk and St Pats playing in Belfast would raise standards would it not? It would increase gate revenue also.
I don’t see anything positive in partition
Anybody who claims there’s no politics in sport should take a look at how UEFA and the Olympic committee is keen to bash Russia at any opportunity. To somehow select Russia above all other countries where athletes cheat is blatant politics.
Look, WT – Lord Coe is in charge. He is of course a saint. So relax – all will be well.
wolfie
By all accounts there was a lot of foot dragging with regard to allegations about Russian state sponsored drugging.
Are you suggesting there is evidence of similar state sponsored activities by other countries?
Are the Russian Ultras part of the western imperialist conspiracy against Russia too?
While not a regular follower of soccer, I find that having both of divided Ireland’s teams in the Euro Championship allows me to observe my own internalised, and thoroughly irrational, partitionism. Today, I am just as gleeful at ROI’s defeat by Belgium as I was at NI’s defeat, a few days ago, by Poland.
On the other hand, I was delighted with each of their victories (assuming that ROI draw was some sort of victory). Perhaps because NI’s scores have been more conclusive, I find myself identifying with NI fans more than I want to do with those smugly “well behaved” ROI fans. Somehow, those NI fans, flags, anthems and all, look and sound more like my own people.
Is it likely that soccer will be the force that eventually unifies the hearts, if not the politics, of the Wee Six?
Really Mary Jo?
I was gutted. I thought they played rally well and should have had a penalty when the other team took advantage of a lapse in concentration, I believe a few were expecting a penalty to be called.
The first half took hours off my life and was nail biting stuff but we were holding out well up to the goal.
I don’t see the ROI team as the republic, they play under my flag and my anthem so they are my team and my people.
The NI team represents the unionist population of Ireland and they are not my people.
The GAA, politics and sport all on the same side.
“But is it fair to remove GSTQ as the anthem or to produce a new flag? Would it still represent unionists British identity if we did?”
The Scottish flag doesn’t cater for the British identity of Scots and the Welsh flag doesn’t cater for the British identity of Wales (well, unless you’re pedantic and see Welsh people/Cymry as the true British).
But that’s the point of having regional teams, it’s not about the UK.
If you want UK anthems and UK flags then form a UK team.
Simples.
“My preference would be to leave two Irish teams, one representing the British community and the other the Irish community.”
So, what’s the difference then? I’m Irish but a unionist, where do people like me go to in your opinion?
And don’t kop out by saying ‘it’s your choice’, actually define the difference between a Northern Irish ‘Irish’ person and a Northern Irish ‘British’ person? Which was Paisley? Which are people with both passports?
One of my best friends over here shares many qualities, views and characteristics as me (including name), the only difference is that he is an agnostic of a Catholic background and I’m an agnostic of a Protestant background, so, according to your logic which is Irish and which is British (if any)? (again, none of the ‘it’s your choice’ easy-way-out please).
“So, what’s the difference then? I’m Irish but a unionist, where do people like me go to in your opinion?
And don’t kop out by saying ‘it’s your choice’, actually define the difference between a Northern Irish ‘Irish’ person and a Northern Irish ‘British’ person? Which was Paisley? Which are people with both passports? ”
First of all, you are free to go wherever you want.
But there are two main identities on this island, Irish and British. There may be various political opinions within each group, but you don’t need a team for every opinion and regional difference otherwise you could easily call for a northern England team separate from a southern England team..
As for which you should choose to support. If you are asking me to choose for you, then I would say if you consider yourself Irish then you should support the Irish team.
“One of my best friends over here shares many qualities, views and characteristics as me (including name), the only difference is that he is an agnostic of a Catholic background and I’m an agnostic of a Protestant background, so, according to your logic which is Irish and which is British (if any)? (again, none of the ‘it’s your choice’ easy-way-out please).”
Being Irish has nothing to do with religion. If you were born here and live here, you are Irish and entitled to be Irish by birth right. Through occupation we are also a colony of the UK, so only for as long as Britain permit it, those in the occupied territory will also be entitled to claim a British identity, but be sure of one thing, it is not a birth right and is not inalienable whereas no one can take away the fact you are both Irish except of course yourselves.
Does that answer your question AG?
To further clarify, you have absolutely nothing to prove, do or think to qualify to be Irish. You have and should have total freedom of choices, you are Irish by birth right or from living among Irish people until you become one and are equal in every way.
Can I ask you something AG?
I once used the term northern Gael and you then assumed I was excluding you.
Do you feel you are not acceptable as Irish by a section of our people?
I would like to know as if it is something I or people form my community are doing, it is something we need to address.
At the moment I do not understand why you feel this way.
“As for which you should choose to support. If you are asking me to choose for you, then I would say if you consider yourself Irish then you should support the Irish team.”
But that doesn’t make sense. There are two Irish teams.
“But that doesn’t make sense. There are two Irish teams.”
Not to me there isn’t, there is only one.
Why should we have 2 Irish teams if both teams want to be Irish, we would be better off with one?
Partition doesn’t make any sense to me either MT, the only reason for a border is for a separate British identity within Ireland. If you don’t want that anymore then lets get rid of the border once and for all.
Unionism seems to want its cake and eat it.
“Not to me there isn’t, there is only one.”
I think that’s called being in denial.
“Why should we have 2 Irish teams if both teams want to be Irish, we would be better off with one?”
Rather obviously because there are two Irish states.
You still haven’t explained the difference, you quite clearly stated that you’d like to see a team for ‘Irish’ and a team for ‘British’, I’m baffled as to how that would work as many people like to see themselves as both and what you’re doing is forcing them into an ultimatum.
You then said that you don’t need a team for every political opinion, but that’s pretty much what you’re suggesting.
I’m Irish, from Northern Ireland.
That’s no more mutually exclusive from being British than being Scottish & British or Welsh & British so I find your impractical suggestion of a ‘British’ team and an ‘Irish’ team somewhat scary as we already have two teams on the island whom players can play for if they have the necessary skill, no further cajoling or choice making is necessary.
“Does that answer your question AG?”
No. I want to know what exactly your two teams would look like e.g. who is Irish and who is British and how different would they be in outlook to the two teams we have now.
“Do you feel you are not acceptable as Irish by a section of our people?”
Yup.
I feel this dividing people into British OR Irish as opposed to British AND Irish is a way of eventually disenfranchising unionists of a say in Ireland as ‘British’ tends to mean ‘English’ to most of the world and such a portrayal would have us seem as foreigners in our own land as Ali G pointed out to Sammy Wilson.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2016/06/19/irish-and-loyalist/#disqus_thread
“You still haven’t explained the difference, you quite clearly stated that you’d like to see a team for ‘Irish’ and a team for ‘British’, I’m baffled as to how that would work as many people like to see themselves as both and what you’re doing is forcing them into an ultimatum.”
I am not forcing anyone into an ultimatum AG, I am trying to accommodate a British identity in Ireland rather than simply say there shouldn’t be one which is also a perfectly reasonable opinion.
“I’m Irish, from Northern Ireland.”
You are not Irish because you are from Northern Ireland, you are Irish because Northern Ireland is part of Ireland.
“No. I want to know what exactly your two teams would look like e.g. who is Irish and who is British and how different would they be in outlook to the two teams we have now.”
The Irish team is the one who plays under the Irish flag and Irish anthem. The British team is the one that plays under British flags and the English anthem.
“Do you feel you are not acceptable as Irish by a section of our people?”
Yup.
I feel this dividing people into British OR Irish as opposed to British AND Irish is a way of eventually disenfranchising unionists of a say in Ireland as ‘British’ tends to mean ‘English’ to most of the world and such a portrayal would have us seem as foreigners in our own land as Ali G pointed out to Sammy Wilson.”
Then this is the problem we desperately need a solution to.
Northern Ireland has already been disenfranchised from a say in Ireland, it upsets me greatly that our people are still divided over England’s presence in my country.
What you want is for Ireland to be an integral part of Britain as Scotland, England and Wales are.
Britain is the other island and it always will be. No part of Ireland will ever be in Britain and English rule is foreign to many of us.
The reality is, we are all Irish on this island, but we are only British through occupation.
Do you accept that as MT doesn’t.
No part of Ireland is within Britain, we are a province of the UK outside of Britain hence the UK is called the union of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.
How do you plan to convince Irish people that they are in fact British? It simply wont happen. There are those who will accept the status quo while it offers economic stability, but in terms of identity, everyone on our island is Irish and that is the way the demographics will go.
The only reason I suggested 2 teams was to show I was not trying to take this British affinity away from you or force you to support one Irish team which would be the majority preference.
But you likewise have no right to impose a British identity on me which I reject outright.
Do you accept that AG?
There has to be compromise so what do you suggest that be?
“The Irish team is the one who plays under the Irish flag and Irish anthem.”
There is no single Irish flag and anthem. The Southern Irish team plays “under” the Southern flag and anthem.
“The British team is the one that plays under British flags and the English anthem.”
If you’re referring to the NI football team it doesn’t play “under” the English anthem and it plays “under” the NI flag.
“The reality is, we are all Irish on this island, but we are only British through occupation.”
We’re not occupied.
“No part of Ireland is within Britain, we are a province of the UK outside of Britain hence the UK is called the union of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.”
We’re not a province of the UK. We’re part of the UK.
“But you likewise have no right to impose a British identity on me which I reject outright.”
Nobody’s imposing an identity on anyone.
The compromise I suggest Jessica is to have a team for NI and a team for the Republic.
Anyone who wants to support one or both teams is welcome to.
Simples.
“The compromise I suggest Jessica is to have a team for NI and a team for the Republic.
Anyone who wants to support one or both teams is welcome to. Simples.”
That is indeed a prefect example of the unionist interpretation of compromise AG.
“What you want is for Ireland to be an integral part of Britain as Scotland, England and Wales are.”
Nope. That’s incorrect.
“How do you plan to convince Irish people that they are in fact British?”
I don’t.
“Then this is the problem we desperately need a solution to.”
The solution is simple; don’t refer to people as either ‘Irish OR British’ when you fine and well they could be both.
If you’re not sure which to use then use another identifier.
“The solution is simple; don’t refer to people as either ‘Irish OR British’ when you fine and well they could be both. If you’re not sure which to use then use another identifier.”
So I have to give up being Irish because you have issues wanting to be both?
No thanks
Your Irish then
Whatever Britshnesss is all in your head, it is your problem, deal with it yourself but keep me out of it. I am quite content being Irish thank you very much.
“Through occupation we are also a colony of the UK”
We’re not occupied and we’re not a colony of the UK: we are part of the UK.
” so only for as long as Britain permit it, those in the occupied territory will also be entitled to claim a British identity,”
People can have whatever identity they want. They don’t need to “claim”anything.
“but be sure of one thing, it is not a birth right and is not inalienable”
What does this mean?
” whereas no one can take away the fact you are both Irish except of course yourselves.”
Nobody can take anyone’s identity away from them.
“Nobody can take anyone’s identity away from them.”
They why did the British add into the GFA the guarantee that when reunification happens, you will be allowed to keep your British passports and identity?
I think you will find England can indeed take your British identity from you MT and there are protocols in place to manage it.
If Dublin decided to no longer give anyone in the 6 counties an Irish passport, we would still be Irish.
If London decided to no longer give anyone in the 6 counties a British passport, how would you be British?
“They why did the British add into the GFA the guarantee that when reunification happens, you will be allowed to keep your British passports and identity?”
The GFA was agreed by the parties and the UK and Southern Irish governments. There’s no mention of passports in it, and if there were it would be irrelevant as a person’s identity is not dependent on what government travel document they possess . And whatever is said about identity in it is also irrelevant: we are free to choose whatever identity we wish; we always were and we always will be; and words in the GFA can’t and won’t change that.
“I think you will find England can indeed take your British identity from you MT and there are protocols in place to manage it.”
Nobody can take anyone’s identity away.
“If Dublin decided to no longer give anyone in the 6 counties an Irish passport, we would still be Irish.”
Obviously.
“If London decided to no longer give anyone in the 6 counties a British passport, how would you be British?”
Not sure what your obsession with passports is buy a person’s identity isn’t determined by a passport.
“The people of Ireland have been divided for many centuries since the conquest by England who created a ruling class with the wealthier land owners living a different existence to the poor having quite often confiscated land rather than earned it or purchased it.”
Just a small point I’d like to make on this one Jessica. The people of Ireland were never United even before the Norman conquest began. Ireland was divided into various kingdoms (Ulster, Munster, Leinster etc). From time to time a high king might emerge but it was a largely ceremonial title. The irony is the only time in its history Ireland has been united into one single political entity is under British rule.
That’s my understanding of history anyway but I’m far from an expert.