There are many areas of life that are a treasure/burden, and social media are one of these. Social media such as Facebook and Twitter give a voice to millions who otherwise would remain largely unheard. They provide a platform for sharing good news and bad, supporting people in their pain and rejoicing with them in their moments of delight. And the burden part? They allow people to bully other people, they carry messages of hatred and arrogance, they confuse – as Donal Kennedy has demonstrated in his blog today – sentimentality with genuine feeling. Above all, and this baffles me, it provides balaclavas free and gratis for one and all.
What is it with this pseudonym thing? With a few honourable exceptions, virtually nobody posting on this site uses his/her real name. The same is pretty much the norm on Twitter. Facebook is more open in this respect – most people putting up messages or pictures or comments use their own names.
I’ve heard reasons for this anonymity that I’m partially sympathetic to, but that in turn raises other questions. Someone might say “I have to use a pseudonym because I live in an area where my views have to be kept to myself”. So what kind of views are we talking about? Is it that you believe in child-sacrifice? Bestiality? The beheading of political opponents? Hardly. Maybe your neighbours would have a different view on, say, politics? Right. So what would they do – torch your home?
I think in a small, very small number of cases this might be true. But for the most part people wear social media balaclavas because it allows them to say pretty much anything, just as a balaclava allows you to rob banks or attack people or make outrageous statements, without fear of comeback.
In the end, of course, people are entitled to use a pen-name if they wish. I’d just like to know why they do so – and if it has anything to do with cowardice.
I don’t use a pseudonym but I enjoy speculating on the people behind them. For instance.
“Billy.” Is he better known amongst his intimates as “Sweet William?”
I was enjoying a leisurely breakfast when I saw the label “Thick cut Orange Marmalade”
and Sweet William came to mind. But I wasn’t wearing my specs at the time and misread it.
You may fondly imagine that this is a friendly rural site, jude, but do not think it goes unnoticed in the hunt for mooslims, non Sinn Féin republicans and vote ‘leavers’. You could always follow the example of the Irish News where, according to the editor, it actually increased letter writers. Anyway who wants to be classed as a ‘keyboard warrior’? Are you in the telephone directory, by the way?
Unconvincing, fiosrach. Nobody’s asking for your phone number or address. And if this is a friendly rural site, give me ‘Straw Dogs’ any time.
maybe people who lived a sheltered childhood in the leafy suburbs far away from the madness an no nothing of balaclavas could be something to do with it.on the other hand theres people know the swords mightier than the pen in different places.after all there only social media balaclavas when theres migrants walking the streets peeping out of burkas now thats a real issue.
Burkas may or may not be an issue, Billy; but we’re talking about online pseudonyms right now. Is it that people fear they’ll be physically attacked? Or that people will stop being nice to them or saying hello? And what are people online saying that would so infuriate others, if that is the case? I know this question puts the spotlight on a lot of posters here – in fact the great majority – and I’m happy to have people comment with balaclava in place. But I still wonder at the convention. There are some lively exchanges on FB but there are pretty few pseudonyms there.
There is a famous photo taken of Noel Coward crossing the Halfpenny Bridge, Esteemed Blogmeister.
It was taken back in the Fabulous Fifties when he was in Dublin Town for the production of one of his plays at the Olympia.
One was reminded of it on reading your long overdue but most welcome blog of today. While one would, of course, not be into wearing a balaclava oneself – we Warbecks have never been shy of putting our ugly mugs out there. The Warbeckian theory being: the more out front, the more affront guaranteed.
Thus, the reason why our ugly mugs with our hereditary lugs which, as has been oft remarked – seem to be more appropriate on a herd of elephants – are everywhere on display: even on mugs, jugs , juggernauts – everything , in fact, from prayer rugs to designer drugs.
Yet one can thoughtfully understand why one might opt for the synonym of a pseudonym.
Sticking for now, with the stage, of which all the world is. While the theatre a half century ago wasn’t quite Liberty Hall on Liffeyside nonetheless, compared to today, the censorship was only in the, erm, halfpenny place.
Back then it was the thespians who ruled the theatrical roost. Nowadays it is the Drama Queens, for whom Bliss is not for ignoramuses, who patrol the aisles, the green rooms, the parterres, the stalls, the balconies and above all – the Goddesses . For this Big Sisterhood the only showgirl in town is Auntie Intellectualism.
The Ballybough Balaclava.
More to do, EB, one suspects, with Noel Cowardice
Behind which one can, to unpopular views, give voice
‘Some w. are so like gongs
Who deserve regular bongs’
The Master faster than a R. Royce would exit the City of Joyce.
Personally I would prefer to hear a persons true thoughts and debate with those without the constraints of public identity. If anonymity allows this to take place I welcome it.
No harm to anyone, but I would have no interest in meeting up for a social get together, I enjoy the banter on your site but if you tried to turn it into a real life meet and greet it would turn me off and I would say bye byes.
I understand you will face more flak for what is posted than us lot, but I honestly don’t think it is that bad. We are all (mostly) mature adults and reasonably well behaved are we not?
I agree with what you say, Jessica. And just to clarify: NOBODY is invited to a hooley at mine. But it doesn’t address the point: why people feel the need in so many cases, and why no over asks why…
What difference do you think it would make Jude?
How would you feel if someone like MT, sorry for picking you out MT, but say he was posting really annoying and upsetting stuff and accusing young people of being linked to terrorism and justifying their mistreatment for example, and someone took it ill and beat the living daylights out of him.
Or would he just not post and we would not know that opinion was out there and be able to discuss it.
Is it better to have such opinion out there to be faced down, or to have it supressed?
Jude,
It simply reflects the fact that in our so called ‘democracies’ – we are spoon-fed the lie of ‘freedom of speech’ – whereas in effect, no such freedom exists.
Today,there are 17 countries, mostly in Europe, where a person can be imprisoned for 5 years for ‘questioning’ the so called ‘holocaust’ narrative. No other single historical event in the history of the human race, attracts a jail sentence – for empirical evidence based scrutiny.
Perhaps this is why ‘thinking’ and in certain cases the ‘expression’ of those thoughts can be a crime.
The quote:
‘To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize’ often comes to mind.
I agree with most of that, tr. But it still doesn’t explain why people hide behind a pseudonym.
Jude
It can be explained in one word…. ‘Fear’.
Fear of recrimination in employment, social standing, family ties etc. and indeed the law. But mostly fear of misunderstanding.
Words can be misinterpreted (as you have often discovered) due to the constriction of expression in writing, or in the way in which our own limited abilities allow us to convey thoughts. They can also be twisted to destroy an honourable mans’ reputation.
As an example on that very point, – we have been socially engineered to recoil in revulsion, at the mere thought that 6 million jews could NOT scientifically have been killed in the so called ‘holocaust’ by Germany, between 1941 and the end of 1943.
Despite having even many jewish historians deduce this – with empirical evidence and scientific scrutiny, – one still becomes a ‘social pariah’. To openly question this accepted narrative is tantamount to ‘hate crime’.
Revisionist historians and academics are in jail in European countries today for that very ‘thought crime’.
So pseudonyms often provide cover and security, for legitimate scientific and social debate, at a time, when the owners of all Western governments, banks and media, fear open discussion of truth.
Because truth is the ‘bringer of change.’
Persuasive argument, TR. So are people like me and Donal at risk of all this retribution?
I wouldn’t use the word ‘retribution’ Jude.
I would say there are defined parameters of debate that one must adhere to when using ones own identity, but they can be quite flexible in the NI context,- because after all, this is simply a grubby little war between sectarian Irish tribes.
Venture outside of these parameters however- and begin to analyse the historical truth of, for example, the ‘Holocaust Industry’, or indeed enquire, as to why there is such massive over-representational influence on western geo-political world affairs by one tiny group of people……….?????
Well…. I think you know …..You, Donal and this site would be ‘toast’.
tr
Re that tiny group of people. It wouldn’t be the Jews would it?
Gio,
No, – ‘it would’t be the jews’.
Jewish people are being lied to, just as much as the rest of us.
Unconvincing,jude and I recognize you behind the balaclava.
You’re having a laff now, fiosrach. I do, though, think it’s an odd phenomenon and I’d be interested as to why people do it.
I don’t see the problem with using a pen name provided it is not used simply to throw abuse.
People surely have various reasons for doing so, some banal some maybe reflecting genuine worries.
The debate should be about the argument being put forward regardless of the identity of the person putting it, so in a way that identity should not be relevant, unless we want to indulge a bit of manplaying.
when the internet was a new thing people were posting on bum names for a sleggin match,but the do gooders brought in these mad hate laws checking ip addresses raiding houses ect most people stopped or learnt how far you can go and just kept their user names.
Swift. Tone, umpteen pamphleteers, aritists, poets used pseudonyms, as,of course do
Berks like “Billy” who seems to be scared of ladies in Burkas.
I don’t believe anyone in Ireland has been attacked by a Moslem since the Sack
of Baltimore, and that was centuries ago.
It’s the PSEUDS that annoy me, like that MEGA PHONEY, Geldof,
Farrage is a Cad from Central Casting. But Geldof is hole-full of haemorrhoids
Less abuse, please, Donal…
And right there Donal – in the tone of your post with its abuse – is why people want anonymity
Donal,
Most people oppose the Burka because it is pretty anti-social and I can understand why some would be intimidated by it. I imagine a man or a woman going down a crowded street with a balaclava on them, would you not feel intimidated? I know I would. There is no religious justification for wearing a Burka, the Hijab (which no one has issues with) is a religious requirement in Islam, not the Burka.
Somehow I get the feeling that if a group of Western men or women demanded to wear a balaclava openly the like of Donal would be the first to tell them to wise up (and rightly so) but this attitude suddenly changes when it comes to people of a different race or religion? Why? Well its my opinion its a hyper sensitivity to racism, its an overreaction by people who hold far left opinions who DO want to change Europe, who do want to destroy European identity and anyone who dares oppose it will be labelled a “racist” in the attempt to silence them. Unfortunately for them that wont silence me. I’m a Democrat and I oppose fascism.
I was talking to a Republican about Muhammad Ali and I showed him the video of Ali clearly espousing racist views and opinions. The Republican proceeded to justify this racism against White people. I replied that racism of any kind against anyone can never be justified. He disagreed…….his logic was: This racism good, but this racism bad. My logic was: all racism is bad.
“I don’t believe anyone in Ireland has been attacked by a Moslem since the Sack
of Baltimore, and that was centuries ago.”
Well the entire town of Baltimore in Ireland, men, women and children were carried off to the Slave Markets of Arabia or North Africa, Donal, much like millions of other poor souls along the coasts of Europe. I have a book, I’ve yet to read it yet, called “White Gold” by Giles Milton. From what I’ve read on the internet I just hope all those Irish people died on route to the markets because what awaited them was Hell. We often hear about the Atlantic Slave Trade (and rightly so) but we never hear about the Arab Slave Trade which was much larger and lasted much longer. Indeed Britain abolished slavery in, I think, 1803, and spent millions in gold and silver to disrupting and destroying the slave economy’s of other states. The Brits at least did something right, for once. Compare this to Saudi Arabia who abolished slavery in 1960 and where apparently slavery is still widely practiced, which I don’t find hard to believe given they still crucify and stone women for being raped…..
Irish born Canadian Philosopher Stefan Molyneux did a fact series on slavery if you want to find out more, which I highly recommend…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31E1gHowYcA
Stefan also did a factual history on the Crusades and the Islamic Conquests, also very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ilFbbk9jw4
Links to sources below the videos.
I am a civil servant and have been for over 3 years.
Back in the day it would not be to your advantage as a civil servant to espouse republican views and a certain a amount of that atmosphere remains today. That is why I do not use my real name, but come retirement while that will be a different matter. Either way I will not be spouting bile at any one.
That’s good, BD – I’m agin bile myself. But wouldn’t that be a reason why you SHOULD use your name?
Well Ryan is my real first name but I would never use my full name.
I think people use fake names online because it does allow them to pretty much say whatever they like and to share feelings/ideas on certain topics they wouldn’t usually share if it was face to face with other people. For example, Jude just a week or two ago was brought on the Nolan show to explain what he meant by his tweet about the Boy’s Brigade. If Jude had have set up a fake twitter account and tweeted that same tweet then he wouldn’t have been confronted. It does take a lot of guts to go on Live TV and explain yourself and fair play to Jude for doing that because most people wouldn’t have done in his position.
Of course many people airing their views, particularly on facebook, have lost their jobs. A few years back a Loyalist on Facebook complained that he had to help train a Catholic apprentice in, I think, Bombardier or some other engineering company. His comments were pretty sectarian and he was begrudging the fact his boss placed him with a young man who happened to be Catholic. These comments were sent to his Boss and he was sacked immediately. There was another Loyalist, a woman, who worked in a store and she was complaining about Catholic women and their kids on her facebook. Again her comments were very sectarian. She too got sacked when the comments were sent to her employer.
So there is serious consequences for airing your views online if your using your real name, photo, etc Of course many people have been arrested for racism, threats, sectarianism, etc on Social Media.
Why do I not post my photo online or use my full name? For a number reasons, the main one being I’m a very private person. There’s people who I talk to on twitter who I walk past every day and they have no idea I’m the guy they talk to lol I get a real laugh out of that one. I remember queuing in the Centra in Beechmount a few months back and Tim Brannigan was right in front of me and he had no idea I was the one he talks to every now and then lol
I don’t consider my views bad or extreme to warrant secrecy. I do disagree with mass immigration and a lot of people tend to consider being anti-immigration to be “racist” but that’s just sheer stupidity on their part but still I get the sense people do find my views a little racist due to the political culture that exists today, even though I’ve used valid points why mass immigration is bad economically and socially for Europe. Obviously I’m not racist but I wont be changing my views simply because of society’s hyper sensitivity to racism, if only society had a hyper sensitivity to poverty then there would be no child going hungry tonight. Would I air these views openly? Yes I would but I’d expect a very hostile reaction in reply, which says a lot about some peoples commitment to free speech, democracy and critical thinking.
I think we are on the same page here Ryan, first of all anti-immigration is racist.
Anti mass immigration is not though, it is common sense to have controls such as they do in Australia and dangerous not to. The EU are trying to form a single nation and that is why the floodgates are open, but it is far too diverse and ignoring the social constructs in pursuit of economical controls.
I would say it is ill advised and more likely to lead to another large scale war. Hitler would have approved of it and saw it as mass mobilisation of troops in waiting. Who controls the money controls the state.
Out yonder waits the EU foe, so sing a soldiers song.
Jessica I think you are a wee bit obsessive when it comes to migration. I notice you didn’t respond to my comment on a previous article. It might be useful to deal with the facts here. (These figures for the 26counties only, have been taken from Nevin Economic Research Centre)
• Nearly half a million people (all ages) left Ireland over the period April 2008 – April 2014 (480,000 is the estimated figure from the CSO).
• An estimated total of 338,000 came to Ireland as immigrants over the same six-year period (whether as returned Irish emigrants or as new non-Irish immigrants).
• Putting the above two numbers together we get an estimate of 141,000 net migrants who left the State. This means that the population of the State was approximately 140,000 lower in 2014 than would otherwise have been the case in the absence of migration (of course a few of these may have died and not a few would have given birth to new residents).
Jessica each to their own views but be consistent. Next time you hear an Irish person saying they are going to move to Australia or America for the year tell them they are an economic leach. Also next time you hear anyone talk about the potatoe blight that happen here, make sure you complain about the mass emigration of the Irish (reckoned to be about 1.5 million). After all they went to places like America to be economic tourists.
“Jessica each to their own views but be consistent. Next time you hear an Irish person saying they are going to move to Australia or America for the year tell them they are an economic leach.”
Eamon, I may have missed your comment, but you talk about facts but you are also only expressing an opinion as there are many more factors that should be considered.
I am not anti immigration, I am anti open immigration within the EU.
We need immigration, but we need it open to the whole planet and you mention Irish going to Australia. Only Irish who meet criteria will be allowed in so they wont be leeches and.it is a disgusting comment to make and says more about you.
How many of those Irish leaving the country would we be better off if they remained?
Why are they leaving in the first place?
The Irish people did not go anywhere to be economic tourists, they left and worked hard and earned their way,
Many other nations do also, Polish, Indian, Pakistan, Philippines, and many other nationalities outside of the EU provide essential services here also.
Most of the immigration we don’t want who would not be allowed into somewhere like Australia are from eastern Europe.
Those are also facts so wind your neck in and try getting your own facts right before insulting others.
So Jessica you are saying that the Irish can go anywhere in any amount of numbers and can add value but at the same time immigrants coming here is bad. Do you not see the flaws in your argument? Tell me why you think immigration is bad. Also those figures I gave you are not just my opinion, they are facts.
Tell me, was it wrong for the Irish to leave Ireland during the famine? Can you not see that that British and American governments foreign policy has been the catalyst for migration across Europe?
” Next time you hear an Irish person saying they are going to move to Australia or America for the year tell them they are an economic leach”
Well emigration is a major sore on the Irish economy Eamon and no where near enough is being done by the Irish Government or Irish society in general to stop this culture of emigration because it is literally destroying our country. So Yes, I disagree with people leaving Ireland to go to another country at the first sign of economic turmoil. A new culture of a people wedded to their country in good times and bad needs to be fostered. My own Brother in Laws brother is in Canada, he has a degree in Electrical Engineering and I urged him to stay. My two cousins (two brothers) are in Australia and run their own Company. Again I urged them to return and work for the betterment of our economy instead of Australia’s, I didn’t say those words but I urged them to return none the less.
This logic of: “You cant complain about immigration because our people emigrate” is the height of stupidity, it really is. Every single country on this planet has people who emigrate, it isn’t just Ireland. The reality is certain people are ignoring the social and economic problems that mass immigration cause, if its controlled and sustainable immigration then that’s fine but its not controlled or sustainable. We see the centuries old social issues here in Ireland, that use to exist in Europe too, between Protestants and Catholics but hey, I have a great idea! lets throw in thousands Hindu’s, Muslims and Buddhists into the mix as well! I’m sure every one get along great!…..its this blunt ignorance and arrogance that is very disturbing. I wonder how many countries the people who support multiculturalism have actually lived in? Because I’ve lived in North Africa for a few weeks around 12 years ago and trust me North African cultures and Irish culture wont mix lol (I was in Tunis, btw) I wonder how many multiculturalists will need to do a google search to find out what the Capital of Nepal or Saudi Arabia or Mongolia is? Most of them are just pure arrogant.
“After all they went to places like America to be economic tourists.”
No they didn’t go to the USA to be economic tourists, they went because it was either stay in Ireland and starve to death or try to build a new life in a country whose culture was broadly similar to theirs. The Irish emigrants during the “Famine” went to the first country they came to, its not comparable to Syrian migrants today who are bypassing completely safe countries like Turkey, Greece, Croatia, etc to get to far Northern European countries like Germany and Sweden. Why are they heading to those countries for? has it got anything to do with the fact they offer the highest benefits? Of course that may sound like a shallow argument, I use to think so too but its true. And no Eamon, the Irish migrants that landed in the USA (if they were lucky to survive the journey) didn’t have benefits and social housing waiting for them when they turned up. Your also forgetting the fact that poverty in Ireland in the 1800’s was described by one French Journalist as “by far the worst in Europe I have ever seen, comparable to that of Calcutta, in one small town there was just 2 beds….”. But yet the vast majority of Ireland’s population stayed until the “famine” came….
I think issues like immigration are so sensitive too thanks to racists (real racists) in the likes of the BNP, National Front, etc hijacking legitimate concerns. Of course I distance myself completely from scumbags like that but the concerns are legitimate. I think that’s why most people (and there is a silent majority but they wont be silent for much longer) are afraid to speak out due to a fear of being associated with the likes of far right thugs and I completely understand that. But just as its wrong to say all Muslims support ISIS or all Protestants support the UVF, its also wrong to call someone a racist for highlighting obvious and legitimate concerns. I have no issue with any persons skin or religion, the issue I have is numbers and the cultures of Europe no longer being dominant (as they should be) in their own country of origin.
Ryan and Jessica
I understand, although I disagree, with your objection to migrants on the grounds of wether or not it is of economic benefit to the people of the country. The pros and cons of this are well aired so I won’t go over them again but I’m also sensing that yous are possibly against immigration on the grounds of it spreading multi culturalism into our society.
I could be completely wrong, but if this is the case why?
“This logic of: “You cant complain about immigration because our people emigrate” is the height of stupidity, it really is. We see the centuries old social issues here in Ireland, that use to exist in Europe too, between Protestants and Catholics but hey, I have a great idea! lets throw in thousands Hindu’s, Muslims and Buddhists into the mix as well! I’m sure every one get along great!…..its this blunt ignorance and arrogance that is very disturbing. “
Ok Ryan, would you prefer that we have even more segregation in our society? Perhaps we could even have parts of cafes designated to certain groups, a bit like how the USA use to make black people only seat in certain parts. That we Irish people won’t need to mix. Ryan it is this attitude I find quite disturbing.
“No they didn’t go to the USA to be economic tourists, they went because it was either stay in Ireland and starve to death or try to build a new life in a country whose culture was broadly similar to theirs.”
I agree entirely with this point, I was being flippant with Jessica when I made it earlier. Of course the Irish added clear value to the economy. You don’t make a dangerous journey like that and survive without having a clear drive within you. This is very similar to immigration from Syrian etc migrants today.
Your also forgetting the fact that poverty in Ireland in the 1800’s was described by one French Journalist as “by far the worst in Europe I have ever seen, comparable to that of Calcutta, in one small town there was just 2 beds….”
Im not forgetting that at all, in fact that was the crux of my argument. The vast majority of migrants to any country move because they want to make a better life or themselves. Or maybe you thought the migrants were coming to Ireland for the weather?
“I have no issue with any persons skin or religion, the issue I have is numbers and the cultures of Europe no longer being dominant (as they should be) in their own country of origin.”
Are you saying you think that white Christians are under threat number wise in Ireland? By your logic then the Irish should not be allowed into England as the state religion there is Church of England. Maybe that is not a problem for you as because for the most part you are talking about white people. You argument sounds very much like ‘I’m not a racist but……..’
Ryan I would be interested to hear the actual reasons why you think immigration is such as huge problem for Ireland today.
why you think immigration is such a huge problem for ireland today…………the north is to small to end up over run like cities in england can you picture whole areas like te east end of london,leeds,bradford ect and all the problems they bring ending up here.points system might work bringing them in as needed then returned home.
Maybe mention that to the immigrant doctor who treats you and the immigrant nurses who look after you, billy, next time (a long time off, I hope) you’re in hospital…
Very well put Jude.
Thanks Eamon…
yea in my opinion it would apply to doctors and nurses as well.once they retire they go home and another batch brought in,we have our own elderly people to look after first medical care nursing home places ect.ime sure with the money they have earned they could build a mansion wherever they come from.
Billy if I went through your family tree history , is it possible I would find someone not native to this island. Did they not go back home to build a mansion with the profits they made!
Before you get yourself into a tizzy I should point out that your family has every right to be here the same as me but the put is they would have come here to forge a better life for themselves yet you would deny fellow humans the same rights.
“I should point out that your family has every right to be here the same as me but the put is they would have come here to forge a better life for themselves yet you would deny fellow humans the same rights.”
Are you against controls on non EU citizens coming in to the country Eamon?
Surely non EU citizens could come here to forge a better life for themselves also?
Why don’t we just let everyone who wants to come in?
“Are you saying you think that white Christians are under threat number wise in Ireland? By your logic then the Irish should not be allowed into England as the state religion there is Church of England. Maybe that is not a problem for you as because for the most part you are talking about white people. You argument sounds very much like ‘I’m not a racist but……..”
I never took what Ryan said as having anything to do with religion. I took it more that he would prefer the cultural borders within Europe to remain, rather than embrace a one nation European identity. I feel likewise, I am not a European and have no wish for Ireland to be part of it.
I would actually prefer to be part of a British isles union than a European union.
“Ok Ryan, would you prefer that we have even more segregation in our society? Perhaps we could even have parts of cafes designated to certain groups, a bit like how the USA use to make black people only seat in certain parts. That we Irish people won’t need to mix. Ryan it is this attitude I find quite disturbing.”
I think most people would find that disturbing, but it came from your head, no one else’s and it is not realistically going to happen.
What you and your ilk are attempting is to browbeat everyone to thinking the way you do rather than listen to other points of view and take them on board..
The reason the far right is on the rise all across Europe is because of people like you who wont listen, but are quite prepared to label everyone who disagrees with them a racist.
Calling people a racist when they are not, will not change their views, it will make them doubt yours more.
no rights are being denied,theres no room for them the place is to small.would you want towns say the size of antrim just immigrants and spreading yearly with all the crime,heroin,ect they bring with them.now anybody i know doesnt give two fiddlers what happens in england but they should look at towns there for examples of entire towns being over run i bet they wish they had of listened to ole enoch all them years ago.
“I would actually prefer to be part of a British isles union”
Jessica migrants coming here to work will have no ill effect on what you regard as your British identity.
“What you and your ilk are attempting is to browbeat everyone to thinking the way you do rather than listen to other points of view and take them on board.”
Jessica look through the comments. I have literally said to you on three occasions that I would like to hear why you think immigration is so bad. It is you who is unable to articulate your right wing views. I will say again, Jessica I would like to know your opinion on why you think immigration is so bad for Ireland.
“The reason the far right is on the rise all across Europe is because of people like you who wont listen, but are quite prepared to label everyone who disagrees with them a racist.”
OK Jessica. You think that by treating our fellow humans like we expect to be treated is feeding the right wing? So I suppose your ‘Keep anyone that does not look and sound like us out’ approach is the best thing for mankind. Next you will be wanting to do a Trump and build a wall to keep all those bad people out.
“Jessica migrants coming here to work will have no ill effect on what you regard as your British identity.”
I don’t doubt it, but I have to say your observance is astounding.
“Jessica look through the comments. I have literally said to you on three occasions that I would like to hear why you think immigration is so bad. It is you who is unable to articulate your right wing views. I will say again, Jessica I would like to know your opinion on why you think immigration is so bad for Ireland.”
Well, it is rather difficult to articulate views I don’t have.
As I have already said, if it weren’t for immigration I would be dead so I am hardly going to consider it a bad thing.
In fact I am all for immigration, but not uncontrolled immigration within the EU.
I just don’t like the EU. I am against an open border with EU countries and am against forming a single European nation.
I am more interested in Ireland being a sovereign nation.
So while I don’t think immigration is bad for Ireland, I do think the EU is heading for one almighty breakup and that both Britain and Ireland should get the hell out of it and sort out our own differences together instead.
“OK Jessica. You think that by treating our fellow humans like we expect to be treated is feeding the right wing? So I suppose your ‘Keep anyone that does not look and sound like us out’ approach is the best thing for mankind. Next you will be wanting to do a Trump and build a wall to keep all those bad people out.”
Well, if your interest in your fellow human beings is judged on your ability to listen to what your fellow human beings on this site are saying and to take on board what they have said in a respectful manner, I would say you and Mr Trump have something in common.
I agree with much of what you say Jessica but out of curiosity (I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you BTW) but WHY is it racist to oppose immigration, not mass immigration but just immigration? Immigration doesn’t always have something to do with race. For example many Polish travel to many parts of the EU to find work and they receive hostility from many people for doing that but the vast majority of Poles are White, light haired and blue eyed….
In 2012 the Japanese Prime Minister openly declared that Japan was, I quote, “a one race nation”. By today’s Western political logic the whole Nation of Japan (and China, Korea, etc) must be a nation of racists because they do restrict immigration mostly on the basis of Race.
Israel is another example. I read very recently (and I haven’t been able to confirm this so I’m open to correction) that Israel openly discourages the marriage between Jews and Non Jews and by “Jews” I’m referring to the Jewish race. That would explain why many Black Jews in Ethiopia cant get into Israel.
At the minute I’m in no doubt it’ll end in a Civil War in Europe Jessica. The media and Governments are engaged in a large amount of cover up’s. Like for example the Rotherham abuse of over 1,000 children by mostly Asian gangs over a 10 year period, the Police refused to stop it because they were afraid of being called “racists”. The New Year attacks in Germany by mostly Asian men on German women. German swimming pools having signs telling migrants not to touch or harass women. The fact that 1 in 7 prisoners in UK prisons are Muslim men but yet Muslims are just a tiny but growing percentage of the UK population. The fact many major cities like London or Rotterdam having immigrant majorities. The fact ISIS said they are flooding Europe with 100,000 fighters disguised as Syrian migrants. I could go on.
When it comes to immigration I believe that we should only accept people whose skills we NEED if we cant get them no other way. The last time I looked in Ireland there is thousands of people jobless, they should be retrained for jobs that need filled. There is no excuse at all for bringing in immigrants to do Labour jobs because as I said there’s plenty of our own people who are jobless. Of course we have absolutely no control over our borders whilst in the EU.
“WHY is it racist to oppose immigration”
If an experienced doctor from Nigeria or Pakistan wanted to come here and his skills are needed here, what other reason would there be for saying no?
The problem with the EU, is they are trying to create a one nation state which is why borders are open and uncontrolled.
I am against this, perhaps this is what you mean.
I don’t know about you, but I certainly don’t want to be part of a one nation Europe state. How long before we all start having to learn Esperanto?
“Israel is another example. I read very recently (and I haven’t been able to confirm this so I’m open to correction) that Israel openly discourages the marriage between Jews and Non Jews and by “Jews” I’m referring to the Jewish race. That would explain why many Black Jews in Ethiopia cant get into Israel.”
Israel makes me sick. The EU will continue to expand until Israel is part of the EU. Turkey will be a key factor in this plan.
I despise the Israeli Jews, they are modern day Nazis.
“When it comes to immigration I believe that we should only accept people whose skills we NEED if we cant get them no other way. The last time I looked in Ireland there is thousands of people jobless, they should be retrained for jobs that need filled. There is no excuse at all for bringing in immigrants to do Labour jobs because as I said there’s plenty of our own people who are jobless. Of course we have absolutely no control over our borders whilst in the EU.”
That seems to work well for Australia Ryan.
We will eventually lose control over a lot more than our borders and yes, not every country is going to be happy with this.
Jessica think of the type of jobs most of these migrants end up doing. Take a look at Dungannon in the meat factories. The MD of Moy Park is on record saying that he can’t get local people to work in the factories on a long-term basis. They even started putting on buses running from Magherafelt and Cookstown to try and secure steady employment to no avail. Look at another big area such as nursing. The medical profession has been actively recruiting for years to try and fill the gap and haven’t. Would you rather our hospitals have fewer nurses?
The basic laws of supply and demand mean that when people live here they need to consume food and pay for accommodation. All of this increases the rate of consumption in the economy which increases economic growth. Basically it means that because they are here it creates employment for others. On another note, if the migrants were not here then businesses such as Moy Park would close down which would mean not only job losses there but also for their suppliers. Therefore immigration does lower the unemployment rate.
I understand this very well Eamon, and at the start bringing in immigrants to fill dead end jobs was a quick fix.
How about making such jobs not dead end, but since the minimum wage is now increasing, what more could the employers do to encourage local people to fill these positions. I know for a fact they have treated such workers poorly, and taking in immigrants not only continued this unfair treatment, but has led to inferior quality work. Those are also facts.
Is there not a potential case of the wrong solution for the right problem do you think?
Making it more attractive for local people to fill these jobs would take some of the additional pressures off public services, it would bring down the unemployment rate and there would be no need to stop immigration at the same time. We may even stop some of our children leaving.
“On another note, if the migrants were not here then businesses such as Moy Park would close down which would mean not only job losses there but also for their suppliers. Therefore immigration does lower the unemployment rate.”
Eamon, I work with Moy Park and the Marfig global HQ is in Craigavon, do you think they would take such a step if there was a risk of closing.
How can anyone take you seriously when you resort to scare tactics?
Jessica, I don’t see why you would consider a nursing job as a ‘dead end’. I reckon those that do the job see it as a vocation. Also if it is a ‘fact’ that immigrants produce inferior work then show us your evidence. Seriously if it is a fact then you will have evidence. I suspect it may just be nothing more right wing nonsense, but I am open to persuasion.
You realise of course that there are people in America and Australia coming off with the same nonsense about the Irish working there. Let’s think about Australia for a minute. They now have the highest unemployment rate since 2002, just over 6%. Using your logic the Irish should not be allowed to enter the country as it should just be jobs for Australians. So let me ask you, do you think the Irish should be stopped from working in these countries? Lets be honest, there are very few jobs the Irish are doing in these countries that the locals couldn’t do now/ or be trained up to do. A lot of the right wing over there are coming off with the same points as you Jessica.
“Since the minimum wage is now increasing, what more could the employers do to encourage local people to fill these positions”.
Personally I think that businesses and the government could be doing a lot more to protect workers’ rights but this is yet another area where your argument falls down. If by your own admission the local businesses cannot get local people to do some of the jobs, would you rather the firm closed down therefore all jobs are lost or would you rather that we get people who are willing to do the job and therefore making a positive economic contribution to the economy both in terms of paying tax and also spending their disposable income in the local economy.
Also Jessica it is not a scare tactic to quote the MD of Moy Park about their problems with recruitment.
Jessica I’m sure if we were ever to meet in person I would easily deduce that you are a very caring person towards your fellow human beings. However I find that in an issue such as immigration, some people tend to see these sometimes vulnerable individuals as stats and not humans. It is all part of the ‘little England’ approach that Cameron and his cronies are pushing.
Again I would ask you, what is your main problem with immigration? Is it as Scott asked multiculturalism?
I have no problem with migrants coming to these shores to increase their standard of living or to escape conflict areas in which some EU member states played a part in fomenting eg Syria. In fact the people of former colonies or even present day colonies of European countries should be facilitated in moving to those countries that exploited their lands. However we can’t escape the fact that big business in cahoots with he EU has played the ‘humanitarian’ immigrant issue to simply disempower the local worker/trade unions. Unskilled workers for an example would earn more or less the same money they earned 20 yrs ago. That doesn’t sound right if you take into account rising costs of the standard of living/inflation etc. When this happens it normally meant unions would threaten industrial action in an attempt to force the hand of the employer to share some of his profit with his employee I.e pay rise. So with the increase in the workforce it empowers the employer to dismiss and ignore the union.
About ten yrs ago I worked for a free state company that paid just over the minimum wage rate. However it dangled a carrot of promised bonuses etc to balance the low wages they paid. Unfortunately when we signed up they began to change the rules concerning the carrot they had offered. We worked our socks off for two years but no bonuses were forthcoming. Despite lots of promises it became apparent they were foisting us off and giving us the run around. Alas our only option was to refuse to do overtime for them. This certainly got their attention and annoyed them so much that within two weeks they’d flew 10 people from another country into our workplace. They paid for their flights(which the migrant had to refund out of his wages) and put them up in accomodation that belonged to the firm and thus the migrant had to pay the rent to the firm as well. Anyways, shortly after their arrival, the boss stopped me and asked smugly for my opinion on ‘the foreigners’. I told him I had no problem with them whatsoever and that I wished them all the luck. I also said I hoped the firm wouldn’t treat them like wee slaves that they could order through hoops. His response to me was ‘you see, yous are just a number to me; it doesn’t matter who I get to do the work just as long as it was done’.
So in conclusion I have sympathy for those who ‘fear’ the influx of migrant workers. It isn’t necessarily racist. If the EU rulers were genuinely concerned about all EU citizens etc and the impact of immigration then they should be ordering all EU states to implement a proper minimum wage. That would end the immigration debate in a flash. But alas it’s all about the divide and control and counting the profits.
That is a more realistic and honest appraisal WT.
Nursing is most definitely not a dead end job Eamon.
Shortage of Doctors and nurses is why I think we MUST have immigration.
The vast majority of these some from outside of the EU and immigration from outside of the EU is more important to us than immigration from within the EU.
I would prefer we opened our borders to the whole planet than to keep them open only to borders the EU decides and beyond our control.
And before you start calling me a racist again, it was a Nigerian doctor who saved my life. I would chase billy out of the country before I would chase such admirable human beings. The colour of their skin means nothing to me. Both houses on either side of my own are coloured and I have no issue with it either.
I will say it one more time, I am not anti immigration, I am anti EU control.
And I still don’t like Europe and you are doing little to convince me otherwise.
What is so good about being controlled from the EU? We will have less control than we had being ruled from London.
It is a pity such focus and determination was not aimed at righting wrongs against Irish people in our own country than defending the less well off in the rest of Europe.
I suppose just like gay marriage, this will be a more popular cause for young people to chase instead.
where do you think your living n/korea..you would chase people out of countrys.lolol.and that was a lol.i near choked.
“where do you think your living n/korea..you would chase people out of countrys.lolol.and that was a lol.i near choked.”
exactly billy lol 🙂
Jessica, I’m glad to see you now realise the importance of immigration. Not every individual would change their opinion even when presented with the facts.
“Jessica, I’m glad to see you now realise the importance of immigration. Not every individual would change their opinion even when presented with the facts.”
But I haven’t changed my opinions on immigration Eamon.
Open uncontrolled borders throughout the EU is wrong.
Perhaps you could answer my question
Should immigration be opened up uncontrolled to the whole world rather than just limiting it to Europe?
Jessica from this:
“If these migrant workers had not come, I wonder how many of these jobs would not have been filled otherwise?
“Local children have had families split up into different schools over the sheer numbers of ethnic minority children flooding into the system”
“ 81.5% of migrants in the UK are employed How is that impacting on the unemployment rate for nationals, positively or negatively? I take it the English are not simply against this for spite?”
“At the start bringing in immigrants to fill dead end jobs was a quick fix. Taking in immigrants has led to inferior quality work.”
“Most of the immigration WE DON’T WANT who would not be allowed into somewhere like Australia are from eastern Europe.”
To this:
“Shortage of Doctors and nurses is why I think we MUST have immigration”.
Only you know if you have really changed your mind, however the points you try to articulate are not always consistent.
“Should immigration be opened up uncontrolled to the whole world rather than just limiting it to Europe?”
Jessica before you start into a rant about these people aren’t our problem etc, consider the following figures as people. Consider them like men, woman and children that you know.
In 2014 alone, Israel’s activities in the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem resulted in the deaths of 2,314 Palestinians and 17,125 injuries. More than 11,000 people were injured and about 500,000 Palestinians were internally displaced at the height of the conflict.
The people of Palestine are being butchered on a weekly basis by an extremely powerful state.
Take the case of Omar Yousef Madi al-Jawabreh who was only 16 years old. The Israeli forces shot him in the southern occupied West Bank district of Hebron’s al-‘Arrub refugee camp in February.
If his family wanted to move to Ireland before this happened then under your potential laws they wouldn’t be allowed in.
I honestly see no justifiable reason to keep them out.
Eamon, I was not planning to rant about how anyone is not our problem and you will not change my views by branding me a racist or accusing me of ranting about something before I do it. I personally don’t give a damn if you think I am racist.
Just because I have the common sense to know that immigration is not only needed but a human right, I also have the common sense to know the importance of social constructs and the impact that mass movement of socially diverse peoples can have which is why I fully support border controls.
You still haven’t had the decency to answer my questions I note.
Should there be any controls over immigration whatsoever or should as many people as want to be allowed to go wherever they want?
There are truck loads of people trying to get across the channel into both these islands and some are dying over efforts to stop them.
Do you think it is wrong we are not allowing every single one of them in?
“I also have the common sense to know the importance of social constructs and the impact that mass movement of socially diverse peoples can have which is why I fully support border controls.”
Spoken like a true Nigel Farage follower.
“You still haven’t had the decency to answer my questions I note.”
Jessica , pot kettle black springs to mind. The following is only a few of the questions you failed to answer. Why don’t you try now?
– “So Jessica you are saying that the Irish can go anywhere in any amount of numbers and can add value but at the same time immigrants coming here is bad. Do you not see the flaws in your argument? “
– “Tell me, was it wrong for the Irish to leave Ireland during the famine? Can you not see that that British and American governments foreign policy has been the catalyst for migration across Europe?”
– “ Also if it is a ‘fact’ that immigrants produce inferior work then show us your evidence. What is your evidence? Seriously if it is a fact then you will have evidence. I suspect it may just be nothing more right wing nonsense, but I am open to persuasion.”
– Again I would ask you, what is your main problem with immigration? Is it as Scott asked multiculturalism?
– If by your own admission the local businesses cannot get local people to do some of the jobs, would you rather the firm closed down therefore all jobs are lost or would you rather that we get people who are willing to do the job and therefore making a positive economic contribution to the economy both in terms of paying tax and also spending their disposable income in the local economy
– You realise of course that there are people in America and Australia coming off with the same nonsense about the Irish working there. Let’s think about Australia for a minute. They now have the highest unemployment rate since 2002, just over 6%. Using your logic the Irish should not be allowed to enter the country as it should just be jobs for Australians. So let me ask you, do you think the Irish should be stopped from working in these countries?
“Should there be any controls over immigration whatsoever or should as many people as want to be allowed to go wherever they want? There are truck loads of people trying to get across the channel into both these islands and some are dying over efforts to stop them. Do you think it is wrong we are not allowing every single one of them in?”
Jessica I believe that all those men woman and children risking their lives to get to Europe should be let in. I think that the EU has more than enough space and resources to help set them up. Think about why they are literally dying to get in here. Surely your basic humanity desires to help these people.
Again I would say that this ‘little England’ mentality of Nigel Farage that you have bought into costs lives. When that wee 3 year old boy washed up onto the beach in Turkey my heart sank. Surely you see that it is just wrong to stop these people coming in. If it is simply just money in the economy that motivates you then think of this, the reason why Germany has taken in a higher than proportion refugees is that they know their economy will thrive off it. If it completed backfired from an economic point of view then these so called ‘economic tourists’ will move on.
Jessica you are pointing your anger in the wrong direction. If you want to vent against anyone don’t do it against sometimes vulnerable refugees, instead vent against big corporations such as Sports Direct who exploit their workers, bankers for wrecking our economy, the tory party for their austerity policy.
“Spoken like a true Nigel Farage follower.”
Yes, I am a true Nigel Farage follower Eamon.
“Jessica , pot kettle black springs to mind. The following is only a few of the questions you failed to answer. Why don’t you try now?”
No problem Eamon.
“So Jessica you are saying that the Irish can go anywhere in any amount of numbers and can add value but at the same time immigrants coming here is bad. Do you not see the flaws in your argument? ”
Where can the Irish go in any more numbers than any other nation?
I am aware Ireland has a common travel arrangement with the UK which I do support but I would not support the Irish being able to travel anywhere in any more numbers than any other nation is entitled to. I also don’t think being Irish should make it harder to get in anywhere.
I do think it perfectly reasonable however for a doctor or bricklayer to gain entry to Australia ahead of someone who has been unemployed for 40 years with a criminal record and on a sex offenders register, something which the EU arrangement does not differentiate from.
“Tell me, was it wrong for the Irish to leave Ireland during the famine? Can you not see that that British and American governments foreign policy has been the catalyst for migration across Europe?”
No, it was not wrong for people to leave to pursue a future elsewhere, and it still isn’t..
No, I do not see how the British and American governments foreign policy has been the catalyst for migration across Europe, perhaps you can explain that one for me.
” Also if it is a ‘fact’ that immigrants produce inferior work then show us your evidence. What is your evidence? Seriously if it is a fact then you will have evidence. I suspect it may just be nothing more right wing nonsense, but I am open to persuasion.”
I am only a small employer but yes I can talk from first hand experience for what it is worth.
First of all the language barrier is prohibitive. I have had 2 attempts at legal action both of which were unjustified, never got beyond a solicitors letter, but I was told in no uncertain terms by the solicitor that this was normal practice. Many of these EU migrants are well aware of the employment legislation which means employers have zero rights in the UK and it means they will jump on the slightest opportunity to claim.
We had one EU employee who was a good enough worker, but actually tried starting up on his own in competition and was while working for me, putting out flyers for his own business and changed his own uniform to his own company name. And then tried to sue me for sacking him.
Don’t start me.
“Again I would ask you, what is your main problem with immigration? Is it as Scott asked multiculturalism?”
I have no problem with immigration, I have a problem with discriminative immigration. An open border controlled by the EU means less quality immigrants from outside of the EU getting in. There should be 4 or 5 times more people coming in from outside the EU than from within it.
Do you have a problem with multiculturalism outside of the EU?
“If by your own admission the local businesses cannot get local people to do some of the jobs, would you rather the firm closed down therefore all jobs are lost or would you rather that we get people who are willing to do the job and therefore making a positive economic contribution to the economy both in terms of paying tax and also spending their disposable income in the local economy”
We still have many businesses who treat their workers like crap, that is why they cannot get local people to do some of the jobs. Taking in cheap untrained labour from eastern EU means they can continue treating their workers like crap. Yes, the work gets done and tax is raised, but I do not in any way support that solution to the problem. The first step would be to enforce employers to treating workers better, then stop paying people not to do the jobs when there is no longer any justification for refusing them.
Immigration will still be needed for skills shortages and I would even support exceptions for helping more people in need from other parts of the world.
“You realise of course that there are people in America and Australia coming off with the same nonsense about the Irish working there. Let’s think about Australia for a minute. They now have the highest unemployment rate since 2002, just over 6%. Using your logic the Irish should not be allowed to enter the country as it should just be jobs for Australians. So let me ask you, do you think the Irish should be stopped from working in these countries?”
The Irish are stopped from going to these countries unless they qualify for entry. I think Australia has the right idea.
“Jessica I believe that all those men woman and children risking their lives to get to Europe should be let in. I think that the EU has more than enough space and resources to help set them up. Think about why they are literally dying to get in here. Surely your basic humanity desires to help these people.”
I agree, so would you agree with me that the EU is racist and discriminative towards its own citizens and doesn’t give damn about non EU peoples suffering?
“Again I would say that this ‘little England’ mentality of Nigel Farage that you have bought into costs lives. When that wee 3 year old boy washed up onto the beach in Turkey my heart sank. Surely you see that it is just wrong to stop these people coming in. If it is simply just money in the economy that motivates you then think of this, the reason why Germany has taken in a higher than proportion refugees is that they know their economy will thrive off it. If it completed backfired from an economic point of view then these so called ‘economic tourists’ will move on.”
Eamon, I would like to see Ireland as a united independent nation, outside if the EU, similar to Iceland. How that makes me a little Englander I do not know but continually comparing me to Nigel Farage suggests to me you are too focussed on British politics and might be happier on the other island.
As for Germany taking in a million immigrants. It is a ready made army in waiting of the EU which it controls. Go figure.
“Jessica you are pointing your anger in the wrong direction. If you want to vent against anyone don’t do it against sometimes vulnerable refugees, instead vent against big corporations such as Sports Direct who exploit their workers, bankers for wrecking our economy, the tory party for their austerity policy.”
Those most in favour of EU only free movement are big corporations and they do it so they can continue to exploit workers and replace local workers who demand better treatment. The same people predicting economic turmoil from leaving the EU, is the same people who failed to spot over inflating the housing market and creating a culture of millionaire level debt would crash the banks.
“Yes, I am a true Nigel Farage follower Eamon”
Well I suppose he has to get support from somewhere.
“I do think it perfectly reasonable however for a doctor or bricklayer to gain entry to Australia”. Just no one coming the other way! Try to be consistent.
“No, I do not see how the British and American governments foreign policy has been the catalyst for migration across Europe, perhaps you can explain that one for me.”.
Jesscia look at the devastation left in Syria by the bombardment there.
” Also if it is a ‘fact’ that immigrants produce inferior work then show us your evidence. What is your evidence? Seriously if it is a fact then you will have evidence. I suspect it may just be nothing more right wing nonsense, but I am open to persuasion.” .
“We had one EU employee who was a good enough worker, but actually tried starting up on his own in competition and was while working for me, putting out flyers for his own business and changed his own uniform to his own company name. And then tried to sue me for sacking him”.
So then just lump everyone in the same boat. Was he or she black, if the answer is yes then you can say that anyone black is also lazy and unemployable. Jessica this is not what evidence is. This is just racist.
“We still have many businesses who treat their workers like crap, that is why they cannot get local people to do some of the jobs. Taking in cheap untrained labour from eastern EU means they can continue treating their workers like crap. Yes, the work gets done and tax is raised, but I do not in any way support that solution to the problem. The first step would be to enforce employers to treating workers better, then stop paying people not to do the jobs when there is no longer any justification for refusing them.” So Irish can go to Australia no problem but its completely different the other way around.
“Again I would say that this ‘little England’ mentality of Nigel Farage that you have bought into costs lives. When that wee 3 year old boy washed up onto the beach in Turkey my heart sank. I would like to see Ireland as a united independent nation, outside if the EU, similar to Iceland.” So let the children die then is your solution.
“How that makes me a little Englander I do not know but continually comparing me to Nigel Farage suggests to me you are too focused on British politics and might be happier on the other island.” Not sure how you would make that assumption, in fact it was you who said earlier that you “would actually prefer to be part of a British isles union”
Jessica we are not going to agree here, we just have different levels of moral values.
“I do think it perfectly reasonable however for a doctor or bricklayer to gain entry to Australia”. Just no one coming the other way! Try to be consistent.
Eamon, when someone deliberately takes a part sentence to make a false and disparaging remark, it not only shows you are unable to response to the point being made, but have a more nefarious motive.
Here is the complete sentence:
“I do think it perfectly reasonable however for a doctor or bricklayer to gain entry to Australia ahead of someone who has been unemployed for 40 years with a criminal record and on a sex offenders register, something which the EU arrangement does not differentiate from.”
To not want child molesters, rapists and so on coming in from other countries, does not mean you are anti immigration.
The EU means we are due to restrictions on viability of numbers, potentially rejecting skilled people from outside the EU to allow in rapists and child molesters.
That is a fact as free movement within the EU is open to everyone. And it does impact on the numbers we can take in from outside the EU.
“No, I do not see how the British and American governments foreign policy has been the catalyst for migration across Europe, perhaps you can explain that one for me.”.Jessica look at the devastation left in Syria by the bombardment there.”
I never considered refugees feeling for survival as migration but perhaps you should focus more on getting them to stop the bombing and start building than calling everyone else racists.
But so you understand, your ideals of immigration will prevent more of those people coming here for relief than mine.
“So then just lump everyone in the same boat. Was he or she black, if the answer is yes then you can say that anyone black is also lazy and unemployable. Jessica this is not what evidence is. This is just racist.”
No, they were white eastern European but it would not have made any difference had they been black, white, orange or green. And yes, I consider Polish to be good hard workers but have identified traits with certain countries more likely to produce people I would not want to employ. I don’t really care if you think I am racist Eamon. I make decisions based on my own experience which I consider is the most accurate evidence.
“So Irish can go to Australia no problem but its completely different the other way around.”
I am against an open border within the EU and always will be. I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU.
As I said, we should be bringing in 4 or 5 times more people from outside the EU than within.
The EU is a discriminatory entity in favour of internal EU citizens. I am against that.
“So let the children die then is your solution. ”
Yes, let the children die Eamon.
“Jessica we are not going to agree here, we just have different levels of moral values.”
Plus your head is too far up your own arse to hear what anyone else is saying.
“I never considered Syrian refugees feeling for survival as migration”.
Well at least you are aware now. These people need our help. In the same way if families wanted to come here from Palestine due to the brutality of American backed Israel, then I say they should be allowed.
“But so you understand, your ideals of immigration will prevent more of those people coming here for relief than mine.”
You want to keep desperate families like these out and I want them in. I’m not following your logic at all.
Jessica you claimed that it was a ‘fact’ that migrants produce poorer quality work. When I asked you for evidence of this you said you worked with 1 person at a point in your life that wasn’t up to scratch with native workers. You claim that this anecdotal event is ‘evidence’. Can you not see how silly this is? Imagine an Irish person is out in America and that exact same scenario happens. Using your logic the every Irish person working in a foreign country in the world should be sent back to Ireland because it is ‘evidence’ and ‘fact’ that the Irish produce inferior quality work. Do you not think this seems ridiculous?
“I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU” .
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist. I don’t know why you would have a problem with someone from Romania or Slovakia etc coming and working here. This is actually worse than not wanting anyone at all. Jessica this is racist, you can try to deny it but if you are denying jobs etc to someone based solely on where they are from then you are being racist.
“Yes, let the children die Eamon”. Jessica it might be easy for you to say this from the comfort of your room on a computer, but what if these children were people you know. Treat them as humans, not as stats.
“Plus your head is too far up your own arse to hear what anyone else is saying.”
A wee word of advice to you Jessica, I know you are getting frustrated as your beliefs are getting holes poked all through them, but if you arguments results in you using derogatory comments to simply insult someone then you have well and truly lost the debate.
Good luck to you Jessica
My beliefs are just fine Eamon, I consider your arguments to be little more than drivel and it is not a topic that I would get that worked up over.
You still have not responded to any of my questions so you can hardly call it a debate.
You seem to be focussed more on winning the argument as if it were some competition and I imagine this drives you more than any real concern for actual human beings.
But, if it makes you feel good.
“My beliefs are just fine Eamon, I consider your arguments to be little more than drivel and it is not a topic that I would get that worked up over.”
Each to their own Jessica but anti-racism is a very important topic to me, I wouldn’t consider it drivel. In the same way I wouldn’t consider the plight of individuals such as the 3 year old boy who washed up dead on a Turkey beach as drivel.
“You still have not responded to any of my questions so you can hardly call it a debate.”
I am honestly not sure what question I have not responded to never mind not responding to all of them. You have a flair for being over dramatic Jessica. The main question you asked over and over is should we open our boarders. I will say again that I think we should.
Let me ask you again some of the questions you have not responded to
– Jessica you claimed that it was a ‘fact’ that migrants produce poorer quality work. When I asked you for evidence of this you said you worked with 1 person at a point in your life that wasn’t up to scratch with native workers. You claim that this anecdotal event is ‘evidence’. Can you not see how silly this is? Imagine an Irish person is out in America and that exact same scenario happens. Using your logic the every Irish person working in a foreign country in the world should be sent back to Ireland because it is ‘evidence’ and ‘fact’ that the Irish produce inferior quality work. Do you not think this seems ridiculous?
– “I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU”
.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist. I don’t know why you would have a problem with someone from Romania or Slovakia etc coming and working here. This is actually worse than not wanting anyone at all. If you are denying jobs etc to someone based solely on where they are from then you are being racist. Do you not see how this is racist?
– You have clearly said here that we should train up our own workers here and then we will not need migration. You went on to say that the Irish go to Australia because they are needed as natives can’t do the job. Are you not being inconsistent here? If you were being consistent then Australia should not have any migration and just train up the natives.
“You seem to be focused more on winning the argument as if it were some competition and I imagine this drives you more than any real concern for actual human beings.”
Jessica if you make a point or false claim then I will respond. If I see racist views being purported under the guise ‘concern for social cohesion’ then I will comment on it. If I see ignorance on a topic such as migration then I will comment on it. I accept the fact that you have blinkers on and you are not open to reasoning and therefore will not change your mind. However as Jude pointed out on a separate post, this site gets 9000 hits a week and therefore can reach a lot of people. Therefore Jessica even though I may not be able to convince you on topic of migration, I won’t let you make racist comments and not challenge them
“Each to their own Jessica but anti-racism is a very important topic to me, I wouldn’t consider it drivel. In the same way I wouldn’t consider the plight of individuals such as the 3 year old boy who washed up dead on a Turkey beach as drivel.”
Well, if you are prepared to brand people racists so you can attack them rather than take on board what they are actually saying and use emotive talk to push insulting opinions they don’t have onto them, then well, what do you think of that?
“I am honestly not sure what question I have not responded to never mind not responding to all of them.”
I am not anti immigration, I am anti EU and do not support a totally EU wide open border. It is to the determinant of non EU immigration which I think should outnumber EU immigration by 4 or 5 times. At the moment EU immigration is more or less equal with the rest of the planet.
I am not saying anyone should not get in, I am saying since there are limits, then lets be sensible and not prioritise corporates getting cheap labour over the benefits to our health service for example from a wider immigration net.
Does this make sense to you and try to think about it before assuming I am simply a racist trying to keep coloured people out? As I said, it was a Nigerian doctor who saved my life.
“You have clearly said here that we should train up our own workers here and then we will not need migration. ”
No I didn’t. I said that corporates were treating local people poorly in work and have the option to bring in cheap labour from the EU and hence are trading local workers even worse over it. An open EU wide border is a poor solution in my opinion.
I won’t let you make racist comments and not challenge them”
I have not made any racists comments, I was being sarcastic about letting children die or supporting nigel farage because it was not worthy or taking serious.
I love children and don’t give a toss about nigel farage.
The point I was trying to make, is you are not listening to what I cam actually saying and only seeing what you want to.
Slow down, keep an open mind and you might find you can actually learn something from even the strangest of people.
– Jessica you claimed that it was a ‘fact’ that migrants produce poorer quality work. When I asked you for evidence of this you said you worked with 1 person at a point in your life that wasn’t up to scratch with native workers. You claim that this anecdotal event is ‘evidence’. Can you not see how silly this is? Imagine an Irish person is out in America and that exact same scenario happens. Using your logic the every Irish person working in a foreign country in the world should be sent back to Ireland because it is ‘evidence’ and ‘fact’ that the Irish produce inferior quality work. Do you not think this seems ridiculous?
– “I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU”
.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist. I don’t know why you would have a problem with someone from Romania or Slovakia etc coming and working here. This is actually worse than not wanting anyone at all. If you are denying jobs etc to someone based solely on where they are from then you are being racist. Do you not see how this is racist?
Still attacking me for being racist Eamon?
I see you still haven’t answered my questions.
I did not say I worked with any 1 person Eamon, I said I would no longer employ people from certain parts ot the EU because due to bad experiences. I gave 1 example of 1 employee to show you the insight. I also said I have had multiple sue attempts where they were out of line and that a solicitor told me this was common with EU imports. Take it or leave it.
And I don’t give a shit if you think it is racist.
“I would no longer employ people from certain parts of the EU”.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist.
When there were a lot of Irish moving to England to work in the 1980’s they were met with signs saying
‘No blacks, no dogs, no Irish’.
Using your logic this is ok and in no way racist towards the Irish. I’m sure there were a lot of people with the same mindset like you that said they didn’t mind people from other countries coming to work there, just not the Irish or blacks. They would have followed this up with your similar statement ‘But I’m not racist’.
– “I would rather bring in people from Asia and Africa (or Australia) in far greater numbers than from the EU”.
To discriminate against someone on the sole basis of where they were born is racist. Would it be OK for the Australians to yes ‘we do need migrant workers but not the Irish as they are lazy and will try to scam you’. Using your logic this is not racist.
“they were out of line and that a solicitor told me this was common with EU imports”.
A migrant worker is not your commodity.
Jessica you claimed that it was a ‘fact’ that migrants produce poorer quality work. Imagine an Irish person is out in America and that exact same scenario happens. Using your logic the every Irish person working in a foreign country in the world should be sent back to Ireland because it is ‘evidence’ and ‘fact’ that the Irish produce inferior quality work. Do you not think this seems ridiculous?
‘And I don’t give a shit if you think it is racist’. Again Jessica I will remind you that when you need to use foul language or insults you have well and truly lost the argument. I know you don’t care what I think and I know you are not trying to set up a local branch of the KKK, however my point is racism is wrong whether it is the lower end of the scale or the top. When views like yours go unchallenged in our society then it lets racism get a stronger grip on our communities.
Jude, as a Republican who lives in a unionist area and works in an environment which would be considered unionist, I tend not to give my full name online.
I for one work in an industry where my real name is scattered on the Internet with customer reviews. Indeed, I often use the review service to encourage prospective clients to read what others say about me on a professional basis. I would therefore let others make an informed decision to allow me to act on their behalf from genuine clients and on my ability to do the job requested
If I used my real name, why, I am sure my reviews on is site would come up and sure it only introduces the prospect of bias or blinkered opinions
That’s my reason anyway
Jude it’s all fine and dandy to be able to speak out when one is on the side of, say, the government, or indeed the media. If you are sounding like the state or those who have their hands on power you can rest easy. The tools of the state will not be used against you. If however you are opposing and even whistleblowing if you like corrupt and criminal acts of those in power then you can be assured that the tools of the state will be used on you.
In the early noughties it was revealed that the British state security forces blacklisted people of a trade unionist persuasion, with employers in Britain. They also approached employers and urged them not to hire people of a irish republican background in the construction industry in Britain.
The state will use the media etc to demonise and blacken anyone who doesn’t toe the line. An individual on their own has no protection from such bullying. Now we may get to an age were we don’t care what the state does or can do but what if they decide to blacken and bully your family as well? And maybe even their families after them?
Btw, mi5 etc are probably cursing themselves that Facebook wasn’t around in the 80’s and 90’s…..they could’ve avoided themselves being further implicated in collusion by handing out photo montages to unionist terrorists; they could’ve simply blamed social media for how the UDA obtained the profiles of republicans.