Abortion is a proverbial ‘hot potato’, an issue upon which people disagree and even, in the USA, shoot dead surgeons as a result of opposition to it. Let me start by saying I utterly condemn any such behaviour as completely unacceptable and abhorrent in a civilised society. I am an opponent of any attempts to introduce abortion ”on demand”, and could never bring myself to willingly vote for it. All of our main political parties here in the North are fairly anti-abortion and I am glad it is one thing on which there exists a consensus. But many political analysts around the world regard this to be an issue more closely associated with the Right than with the Left; given the many Christian and Evangelical groups which are virulently opposed to the act. As a left-wing Christian, I want to advance and advocate a leftist case against abortion.
Before abortion was introduced by Harold Wilson’s Labour Government in 1967, taxes on the highest earners were up to and including 95%. As a society, we used the money of the affluent to build our infrastructure, to create a National Health Service free at the point of need, to enhance educational facilities for pupils and students, and to provide social services/welfare to those who need it. Prior to its introduction, people had large families and the Government regarded this as a good thing as it meant there would be plenty of people within the labour market who would work and pay taxes which supplement revenue for state spending. This was the era of John Maynard Keynes and full employment, when running deficits to invest was seen as a good thing, before Thatcher destroyed this golden age with Monetarism. If children were unwanted or unable to be cared for, the state regarded it as its rightful and moral duty to provide them with the support they needed via well- funded social services. Nobody cared about the money required, rightfully. The same Labour Government abolished the death penalty and legislated for abortion – Myra Hindley & Ian Brady missed state execution by just three weeks, as the trial judge claimed ”Life imprisonment is the only sentence for which the law now allows.”
What does that say about priorities and values, that two people who abducted, raped and murdered children had their right to life protected while a practice was initiated with state sponsorship which deprived unborn infants of the very same right? The rates of abortion tend to increase under Conservative governments and this is the result of a simple fact: Caring for other people’s children costs money – Money which has to be raised via progressive taxation on the most wealthy. British Conservatives care nothing about the right to life for unborn infants because it hits the pockets of their ”mates” who form the Establishment-club. To have a well-regulated, Scandinavian-type social democracy, like Norway or Finland, where investment in children and young people is sufficiently high (as it should be) means a return to the post-war consensus of ”Tax & Spend” economics. Instead, the Monetarists and the Thatcherites want a ”small state”, with fewer resources and services, and for people to be discouraged from having children which the affluent have to subsidise via the welfare system. It is a morally repugnant indictment of the ”selfish society”, knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. And remember, the Tories are well aware that working and middle-class families have more children, all of whom will gain the right to vote; but not usually for them. So, less working-class voters in the big urban areas, means more Conservative seats. To put it bluntly.
I do not doubt that there are reasonable arguments which can be put forward for accessing abortion, not least that unsafe back-street clinics will be perpetuated, but the irony I always encounter with the people articulating them is that someone already preserved their right to life – after all, the pro-choice crowd have obviously been born! Edward Heath was not necessarily a tireless advocate for women’s rights, having only one woman in his Tory Government (a younger Margaret Thatcher), yet he was quite clearly pro-choice in his leanings. This was the Prime Minister who took the free pints of milk off school-children to save money – so, are these people really pro-child either? In fact, I think it’s simply a question of money to them. A ”Don’t have what you cannot afford” sort of thing. But nonetheless a rotten ethos and example for the world.
But although opposed, I’m no fundamentalist – if the mother’s life is in danger, then we have a duty to protect her life. My morality is not based around Canon law or biblical leanings, but simple empathy, that I would like for someone to stand up for my right to exist, whether I am 6 months old or 60 years old. Nor am I ever going to have to go through with the procedure myself, being a man. So unlike some men, who strongly denounce women for having abortions or the practice per se, I think the solution must lie with women. Men in Ireland, the UK and the Western World would not accept female-dominated parliaments legislating to restrict access to condoms, so why should women be forced to accept male-oriented legislatures dealing with an issue that impacts on their bodies? I fully support equal rights for women and believe women are smarter and better at most things than men, proposing strongly that we must become like Scandinavian society as a means of ending such inequalities; so no ultra-feminist can read my writings and shout chauvinism because it isn’t going to hold up in light of previous advocacy. But on this issue, women must have the right to choose, but rather in a female-only referendum throughout the island of Ireland. A referendum is necessary in the Free State, to address the ban on abortion which exists within the Constitution there. But in the North, it would give the politicians the ultimate test of public inclinations on the matter. And who knows how it will go?
None of the mainstream political parties on this island can come up with anything which avoids controversy surrounding the issue, with any proposal being acceptable to one group of voters but isolating to another. However, the closest thing that exists to a silver-bullet is to let women decide the issue directly, once and for all. I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I recognise the necessity and value of democracy: So let’s have the referendum and campaign accordingly. To all the men out there, yes we should not have a vote but we do have a voice and the task must be to persuade voters to do what they think is right for society in Ireland and set an example that we care.


..i fully support equal rights for women..
but you want to deny them civil rights,after the court case about the girl buying the pills online its over for the antis,a few costly court cases to the court of human rights will not be long pulling it in to line with england,no call for referendums.
What about equal rights for babies,billy?
what about the equal rights for babies…..like the rights official ireland gave them,if they couldnt sell them to rich yanks they were post aborted and dumped in concrete tombs by the hundreds in round tuam galway,cork,and elsewhere.are these the same people the blogger wants to call referendums,these days women think for themselves and rightly so.
I repeat,billy, what about civil rights for babies. I’m not interested in what the churches and others did in the past. What about the here and now? Do the babies have a vote?
“let women decide the issue directly, once and for all.”
“let women and their doctors ( and their partners if they are around) decide the issue directly, once and for all.”
There you are – fixed that for you.
In my view neither State nor Church has the right to decide what women do with their own bodies.
If a woman is totally against abortion for moral, ethical or religious reasons, she will never have one.
But neither she nor anyone else has the right to make that decision on behalf of anyone else.
here’s a quick overview of abortion though the ages from Roman times onwards and the consequences of Ireland not providing laws to cover minority(?) views on this issue.
PS Why shouldn’t the Govt legislate to suit all its citizens?
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/abortion-on-demand-now/
“In my view neither State nor Church has the right to decide what women do with their own bodies”
Ben in all due respect, an unborn child is ‘not’ part of a woman’s body.
An unborn child has it’s own distinct genetic code.
In many cases it has a different blood type than the mother.
Human bodies can not function with two different blood types.
To claim that an unborn child is part of the mother’s body would be to say, she has four arms, four legs, two hearts etc,etc. and more amazingly one penis, if the unborn child is a male!
the matter should be decided by the doctor and the woman – up to 8- 12 weeks (embryo/early fetus) is commonly accepted as the cut-off time (except in case of serious deformities when a late abortion may be advised).
The woman is free to choose at any time
It may never be your choice Jim,
You may never approve.
I accept that.
Remember – No one is forcing your wife/partner/daughter to have an abortion.
You have every right to your views but you have no right to impose your views on anyone else.
But, Ben, it’s not a matter of Jim imposing his views on anyone; in situations like this it is a matter of law, and the law tends to impose its view on everyone, and should do so equally.
The question which arises from that is, how do we determine the law, and in the particular instance of abortion, the question we are all concerned with is: what is the unborn child? Is it a human being; does it have rights; is a human being different from a person; are human rights different from person rights?, and so on.
So, while your are entitled to your view too, it would be much better if you made and argument based on the problem we face, and answered some of those questions.
here we go PF
“the law tends to impose its view on everyone, and should do so equally.”
Why shouldn’t the Govt legislate to suit all its citizens?
To take this argument to extremes if even one person in the country wanted to be a jew/Muslim/Hindu/Sikh, shouldn’t s/he have the right to profess that faith?
Equally if only woman in the country wants to have an abortion, shouldn’t she have that right?
“The question which arises from that is, how do we determine the law,”
see above
“and in the particular instance of abortion, the question we are all concerned with is: what is the unborn child? Is it a human being; does it have rights; is a human being different from a person; are human rights different from person rights?,”
See best practice from other EU countries, the UK, USA etc
All these countries provide answers to your questions. In Italy for example, with the vatican in the heart of Rome, abortions are available on the NHS for up to 12 weeks, after 2 consultations with gynaecologist with at least 7 days interval for the woman to think things over.
Later abortions are available in case of gross fetal abnormalities. Doctors and women consult, discuss and come to a decision.
This is only one example which has been available since the mid-1970s.
Germany, the UK, Spain etc probably have slightly different laws. Al these scruples were no doubt extensively discussed in each country at the time.
I am confident ireland North and South could choose one, maybe after a review of the parliamentary debates of the time, opting for whichever seems best for the country, maybe with slight modifications.
There is really no need to tie ourselves up in knots over the issue.
It’s been widely debated from the early 1970s elsewhere in the developed world. We can read what MPs in different countries, particularly the EU, thought then and how their govts legislated at the time and apply one option.
Ben
“Equally if only woman in the country wants to have an abortion, shouldn’t she have that right?”
Only if you have established that by law. The point is that the law, whatever it is, should apply equally to everyone. If it grants or denies a right to one, it does so to all – that is what the law does. If you think one person should have the right to an abortion, that is something which should be established by law, and you’d need to make that case, you haven’t.
I agree that if a law exists people should have the right to act on the basis of the law, I’m asking you a different question.
“See best practice from other EU countries, the UK, USA etc”
I’m not asking what other countries do, I already know some of the variations; but against you miss my point. If they offer abortions they will have reasons for doing so, usually based on the non-person status of the unborn child. Rather I’m asks you what you think the status of the unborn child is and why you think that.
“There is really no need to tie ourselves up in knots over the issue.”
Actually there is, if you think the child has rights. You haven’t established they have no rights. I’m not asking you to parrot others, I’m asking you to explain why you think this is so, otherwise you let others do your thinking for you.
In short you have asserted the right to abortion and the non-rights of the unborn, and you don’t appear to know why you think this.
Simple question: What is the unborn child?
Human being?
Not a human being?
Person?
Not a person?
Child with rights?
Human with no rights?
If you are going to support terminations you really ought to be able to answer that question.
“You have every right to your views but you have no right to impose your views on anyone else.”
Ben, your above statement baffled me because I did not impose my view on anyone. I mealy stated facts. Please point out where I impose my view on anyone.
Maybe what you are trying to say in a convoluted way is:
Everyone has a point of view as long as everyone else’s view agrees with Bens.
“The matter should be decided by the doctor and the woman – up to 8- 12 weeks (embryo/early fetus) is commonly accepted as the cut-off time (except in case of serious deformities when a late abortion may be advised). The woman is free to choose at any time”
Unfortunately, the one most effected, the unborn child, has no one to speak for him/her.
And what about the father Ben, he is left out of the equation completely.
Many scientists have concluded life begins at conception.
However, others now question when personhood begins.
This play on words is a scam to hide the fact that terminating the life of an unborn child is OK.
I am surprised to learn Ted Heath was pro choice? Perhaps his visits to the Haut de la Grenne care home in Jersey made up his mind for him?
Donal, you have basically opted for a ‘right to choose’ model, commonly called pro choice, which is fine, except that that position tends to the view that the unborn child is not a person (at least not up to the current abortion limit); but wouldn’t we need to be clear what the unborn child was, before we chose to terminate its life?
And there’s a perfectly good humanist argument for saying that the unborn child is a human being with a human life and deserving of human rights.
I am a conservative Protestant Christian, but I don’t need to make a religious argument in order to defend the human rights of the unborn child – humanism is sufficient in this case.
Something that is so objectively wrong as abortion can never be accepted by any right-thinking person or civilized society. It is as fundamental as that and no wittering about faux “rights” can ever overturn that fact.
Gearoid
Unfortunately it is not objectively wrong,,it is highly subjective, which is why it is such a difficult issue.
There are differences of opinion in the scientific community,medicine, philosophy,even in religious groups.How does that add up to an objective wrong?
Is it clear to you that an abortion the morning after conception is objectively wrong?
If so, how and why?
Giordanobruno
As Jessica has pretty comprehensively written below, and I broadly agree with her, the ‘objectivity’ of it all comes down to what we think the unborn child/embryo/foetus/ is.
If it is a human life, in whatever form, and possessing all of the information required to be a human life in another form ie someone like you or me, then that is an objective fact. And I don’t see any way around that: religious, scientific or philosophical.
Applying the philosophy of personhood is an unnecessary layer of reasoning in this case.
To take the life of an innocent human being is objectively wrong, Gio, and this has been recognized among human societies across the globe for practically 2 millennia. The major religions on our globe, Christianity, Islam and Judaism(in it’s Orthodox form) thus teach that abortion is a grave sin and cannot be justified as it is intrinsically evil whatever the motivations or circumstances. Enlightened humanists, scientists and philosophers also have come to the same conclusions, possibly more from a anthropological basis than a religious one in many cases. But they all have felt intuitively that the willful destruction of the unborn child in the womb goes against the most fundamental principles and laws in human nature.
Abortion is the termination of pregnancy.
But are there no circumstances where that would be the right thing to do?
I would be pro life and totally against pro choice for the reason that pro choice allows the ending of human life based on personal choice.
But there are circumstances where doctors have to make decisions where turning off life support systems may be considered the right thing to do.
If a person has an accident resulting in brain death but they are being kept alive by life support, with the family’s approval, this can be turned off and the person allowed to pass on with dignity.
The first question has to be, are we prepared to trust our doctors to make the assessment that a persons injury’s are beyond recovery?
If the answer is no, then we have much bigger problems than abortion.
So assuming the answer is yes, then the next question will be, do you support the family being allowed to make the decision to turn off life support when a loved one is declared dead but still has a beating heart thanks to being on life support?
That call should be totally down to the family and their decision respected.
So lets apply the same logic to abortion.
The question when legislating for abortion should be, are we legalising the ending of human life?
To answer, we need to know when human life begins.
Is an embryo a human life?
I would find it hard to accept that a human foetus is not a human life so would not even be prepared to ask the question.
A human embryo undeniably has the potential for human life so how can this be ignored?
I would say at this point, pro choice without a doctors consent is wrong in all circumstances, even where abortion would have been the doctors conclusion.
So in terms of legislation, the first requirement in all cases has to be proper medical assessment.
As with fully grown humans, if the doctors assessment is that life is no longer viable and it is simply the attached life support system keeping the heart beating, then the decision should likewise go with the family as to when to allow the person to pass on.
In the case of an unborn child, this would be the parents, mother and father.
Where the impact of carrying a dead foetus full term would be detrimental to the mothers health, I would legislate that the mothers health should overrule the fathers opinion.
At this point we should consider, that in Ireland a woman in these circumstances was denied an abortion because while the child was diagnosed as dead or incompatible with human life, the umbilical code is a life support which can sustain life and a heart beat remained.
The child’s dead body deteriorated and poisoned the blood of the woman killing a healthy human adult.
I think this proves beyond any doubt that there are circumstances where an abortion should be compulsory and the doctors initial assessment cannot be muddled over political indecision which is more about garnering votes.
So we are left with cases where there are no health issues.
Are there any circumstances where the ending of human life or the potential for human life should be accepted?
I would actually say there is.
Some acts committed by humans I believe are just too evil to be tolerated or suffered.
At the very least life should mean life behind bars.
But an unborn child cannot be so judged so not to deviate.
In general therefore I would say no.
Now to extenuating circumstances where the mothers health may be deemed at risk.
The question is now whether or not we should be allow a doctor to make an assessment that will result in the ending of potential or foetal human life in the interests of saving the life of the mother.
Personally, I would consider it immoral to deny this option as we know it can lead to suicide.
So what does this mean.
In circumstances where an unborn child is brain dead according to accepted medical opinion, we simply cannot deny a mother the same right afforded to the family of a full grown person with the same diagnosis to end that life in a dignified fashion.
It is not only immoral but has already cost a healthy woman her life through failure to implement medical opinion over fear of prosecution.
Beyond possibly a morning after pill, abortion should never be considered a means of contraception.
Under no circumstances should legislation allow a person to make the choice to end a human life.
In a small number of cases, I think we should accept a medical assessment to allow termination when the mothers health is at stake.
The key element for legislators in my opinion would be ensuring this does not result in a loophole where doctors can be tempted into approving abortion on demand and their assessments should be scrutinised with consequences for failure for such decisions to meet strict assessment criteria.
There will of course be those for whom this would still not be sufficient compromise, and as well as religious zeal, there have been good reasons given on a class level.
The class level should be ignored and the religious zeal should consider where to draw the line. I recall a sketch in the Monty Python film meaning of life, every sperm is sacred.
For some zealots, condoms should not be tolerated either.
If the pro life argument is not capable of compromise and would risk a mothers life then it should be over ruled by a confident society. Passing the responsibility on to women to face the wrath of the zealots alone is hardly a desirable solution especially since a child should be the responsibility of two parents not one.
“In short you have asserted the right to abortion and the non-rights of the unborn, and you don’t appear to know why you think this.
@ PF who asked:
Simple question: What is the unborn child?
Human being?
Not a human being?
Person?
Not a person?
Child with rights?
Human with no rights?
If you are going to support terminations you really ought to be able to answer that question”.
I don’t actually.
And in fact, I won’t on principle.
Those are questions that each woman deciding on an abortion has to wrestle with.
Each individual will provide her own answers according to her moral and religious background, her individual conscience, physical and mental health status, her current circumstances, and so on and so forth etc.
My whole point is: what you or I or any other person answers to these questions is of absolutely no relevance as we will not be involved in any way in the decision the woman has to make. Neither will anyone else who objects to or supports abortion.
The state does not need to be involved either – and in my view should not be. It can make a law based on best practice in other EU countries and each woman can make her individual choice after consulting with her doctor and her partner if he’s around.
Ben
“I don’t actually”
So you have a point of view on abortion, but won’t say why… except you did, further on in your post.
Your position is that the unborn can be anything anyone (primarily, if not exclusively, women) determine it to be.
Here is the evidence for that, you said:
“Those are questions that each woman deciding on an abortion has to wrestle with. Each individual will provide her own answers according to her moral and religious background, her individual conscience, physical and mental health status, her current circumstances, and so on and so forth etc.”
In short you have already decided that the unborn child is a non-person unless someone grants it the rights of a person.
But how did you arrive at that conclusion, if you are not answering any questions?
The unborn child is something, and adopting a position on that ‘something’s’ fate without considering what it is, is a weak position. And all the more weak for basing a law upon.
“My whole point is: what you or I or any other person answers to these questions is of absolutely no relevance as we will not be involved in any way in the decision the woman has to make.”
Except that you also say that a doctor or partner might be consulted. Apparently their view is relevant.
And why is this your “whole point” valid anyway? You have given no reason
And you follow this with further contradiction:
“The state does not need to be involved either – and in my view should not be.”
Except that:
“It can make a law based on best practice in other EU countries”
Are they not States? Do not States makes laws?
And how are laws to be made?
Unfortunately you assume your conclusion and then seek to establish your conclusion by your assumption, without recognising your assumption.
And I’d be interested on the ‘principle’ which drives your point of view; surely you can answer that.
Your views are shaping the future of a nation; you really ought to be able why they are your views.
You flatter me PJ – you really do! My views are shaping the future of a nation? Come on ! let’s get real and get things into perspective here! This is simply an exchange of views among people on a blog!
I’ll work backwards with your points
Obviously a doctor needs to be consulted – I don’t think anyone can dispute any woman faced with a pregnancy and this decision is entitled to medical advice, counselling etc. For example a not uncommon occurrence – the woman has an underlying medical problem which means she will most probably miscarry at the 4-5th month. The doctor rightly says a miscarriage at that stage is much more traumatic than an early abortion. What to do?
Obviously the partner should be involved – though his opinion does not over-ride the woman’s. This works both ways – whether the woman decides on a termination or to proceed with the pregnancy against the man’s wishes. (And we’re not talking about extreme situations here – like rape or incest)
“Your position is that the unborn can be anything anyone (primarily, if not exclusively, women) determine it to be.The unborn child is something, and adopting a position on that ‘something’s’ fate without considering what it is, is a weak position. And all the more weak for basing a law upon.”
I don’t know how you managed to deduce all this!
My (weak according to you) position is that i have no right to interfere in any matter that should be decided between a woman and her doctor.And neither has anyone else.
“And you follow this with further contradiction:
“The state does not need to be involved either – and in my view should not be.”
Once the law is passed (and i suggest it should/could well be based on best practice on other EU states) – the state is no longer involved as there will be no more discussion about the matter.
Each individual woman can decide in accordance with her personal circumstances, beliefs etc.
No one will force her to undergo a termination if she doesn’t want one.
No one will prevent her from having one if she does want one.
To be quite honest in ireland north and south no one will prevent her from having one even today as long as she has the money to go to the Uk or an EU country and pay for it. So why not put a stop to enforced expenditure, travel, etc?
Except that:
“It can make a law based on best practice in other EU countries”
Are they not States? Do not States makes laws?
And how are laws to be made?
I have already suggested looking at parliamentary debates in other EU states which date back to the 1970s, seeing what led those legislators to decide and how they decided and selecting/modifying one of the several options as suitable for ireland.
There’s nothing wrong from learning from people who trod this path before us. Ireland does not need to invent the wheel! And it certainly doesn’t need to waste time and energy tying itself up in knots over an easily resolved issue.
Good evening, Ben.
”You flatter me PJ – you really do! My views are shaping the future of a nation? Come on !”
I should be more precise – I meant ‘your’ plural. Your personal views, and many others like them, as they become the accepted norm, are shaping the view of a nation, and do so with very little actual argument behind them. It is evidence of a poverty in our society.
“let’s get real and get things into perspective here!”
Indeed, let’s.
“This is simply an exchange of views among people on a blog!”
And? That neither means that other people do not read them, nor does it mean we are excused the need to provide reasons for our views. Furthermore, blogs influence people.
“Obviously a doctor needs to be consulted. I don’t think anyone can dispute any woman faced with a pregnancy and this decision is entitled to medical advice, counselling etc.”
I know, I was just pointing out that contrary to your initial statement other people have to be involved, and that they, therefore, have to have a view on the subject.
”Obviously the partner should be involved – though his opinion does not over-ride the woman’s.”
Why not? You are making another assumption without an argument. And might not the partner be a woman?
“Your position is that the unborn can be anything anyone (primarily, if not exclusively, women) determine it to be.The unborn child is something, and adopting a position on that ‘something’s’ fate without considering what it is, is a weak position. And all the more weak for basing a law upon.”
”I don’t know how you managed to deduce all this!”
By reading your words; it was a logical inference.
”My (weak according to you) position is that i have no right to interfere in any matter that should be decided between a woman and her doctor.And neither has anyone else.”
But you still have to give a reason for this position. And if I am wrong, and you really have no view on the status of the unborn child, there is really no way you can be so categoric about who has the right to decide what.
Otherwise if your view is that it is the woman’s decision then your view on the unborn child is ambivalent, at best; and, yes, weak.
”Once the law is passed the state is no longer involved as there will be no more discussion about the matter.”
Unless the law is broken. States are very much involved in enforcing the laws they make. Beyond that, can’t we change laws back?
”Each individual woman can decide in accordance with her personal circumstances, beliefs etc.”
Yes, I know this is your opinion, you have yet to defend it.
”No one will force her to undergo a termination if she doesn’t want one.”
I should think not, that would be assault.
”So why not put a stop to enforced expenditure, travel, etc?”
Well, the answer to that would depend on the status of the unborn child, which is the basic point I have to keep making.
People need to know what they are, or are not terminating.
“And it certainly doesn’t need to waste time and energy tying itself up in knots over an easily resolved issue.”
That you think the matter easily resolved tells me all I probably need to know.
‘ Furthermore, blogs influence people’ – while I’d love to think that’s true, posts here suggest the opposite…
I don’t know Jude, your blog on the BB certainly influenced more than a few people.
The written word will never hold the same influence as television but it can stick in the brain longer.
‘certainly influenced more than a few people’ – or deepened them in their initial viewpoint?
Jude,
I wouldn’t necessarily measure influence or the lack of it by the replies and comments posted. Not only will most be unprepared to admit to a change of mind, many others who read do not comment.
And influence might also mean confirming people in their opinion, perhaps not what we might want, but influence none the less.
Harold Wilson’s Government did not pass the 1967 Abortion Act but facilitated a FREE VOTE
on it.
Neither Wilson nor Tory leader Edward Heath commented on the issue nor voted on it.
Nonetheless Wilson later suggested that if the Irish Republic legalised abortion it might speed a united Ireland. All Ulster Unionist MPs when Wilson said that were anti-abortion.
The 1967 Act has about 3 paragraphs which could be printed on half an A4 sheet.
It appears to restrict abortion severely and requires the recommendation of 2 doctors.None
of the MPs supporting the Act advocated Abortion on Demand.
But now everybody accepts that that is what it achieved without any amendment to the ACT.