The recently departed and no doubt sorely missed Theresa Villiers told us that the conditions don’t exist to allow for the triggering of a referendum on the ending of partition. I suppose that whatever conditions existed she would say that anyway. However apart from demanding such a poll what do republicans and democrats need to do now to have this mechanism go live? We are told in the Good Friday Agreement that in the event of a likely majority of the northern electorate opting for an end to partition then the British SOS has the power to call such a poll. So what is the chance of a northern election throwing up such a possibility?
The indications are not good. While there is currently a numerical majority of nationalists in the 40 years and under demographic, a large section of them choose not to exercise their franchise. In the demographic 60 years and over, where there is a clear unionist majority, they do vote. It should be acknowledged that the establishment in the north have been very successful in convincing a section of the nationalist electorate that their interests are best served by remaining in the union with Britain and the preservation of the current border. Whether and to what extent this will change in the wake of Brexit remains to be seen.
A further section of the electorate who need convinced are those soft unionists who no longer have the same affinity with the concept of the “United Kingdom”. Obviously the Brexit result will have an impact on how a lot of these people see their future and that of their children. Apart from those who’d be aghast at the very idea of a return to a Europe of many borders, with all the problems and tensions that can throw up in terms of trade and the economy and growing nationalist sentiments, the fissures with Scotland have again been prised open. If this leads to an independent Scotland within the EU there will be massive consequences for the unionist electorate here. A lot of them have more of an affinity with Scotland than with England or Westminster. The prospect of a non-partitioned Ireland with a special relationship with Scotland and both inside the EU could sway a a section of this electorate. One important aspect of future negotiations will be a willingness on all sides to overcome doctrinaire models of governance and to imagine new possibilities.
The third section of the electorate which will be crucial in our efforts to marshal the numbers required to trigger a referendum is that section of the nationalist/republican community who had previously been supportive of the strategy driven by the Republican Leadership but have lost enthusiasm and faith in the Sinn Féin stewardship of the drive to end partition. This encompasses a wide swathe of ex-comrades, former friends, enemies and political opponents. There are those within this cohort who are implacably opposed to each and every aspect of our politics and the direction of current strategy. Be that as it may, the fact that there are many unionists at least as strident in their opposition, and dare I say it, hatred of all things republican, does not in any way prevent us from reaching out, arguing and articulating our agenda and exchanging ideas instead of insults.
It is time now for an outreach initiative to look at this constituency. This will not be easy, there are all sorts of interests at work in preventing and subverting such an initiative. But sure if it was easy it would have been done long ago. As the man says, ‘Keep your eyes on the Prize’.
Out of curiosity, if it seemed not to be working out, would you be agreeable to a rerun of any Border Poll, say, 3-5 years after Unification?
The border hasn’t worked out Peter.
We have been abandoned by the two states with shared responsibility, we have endured a pointless conflict which should never have happened which was driven through the unfounded fear and mistrust which were a direct result of the border and divisions imposed within Ireland.
What more proof to you need that such division is not only not working out but has been a monumental error of judgement in allowing our country to be divided in the first place?
It will take effort on both sides to mend those divisions but you need to realise, imposing divisions has and will never work out.
“We have been abandoned by the two states with shared responsibility”
Agreed.
“we have endured a pointless conflict which should never have happened ”
Agreed.
But in the course of history it is too simplistic to say that partition caused these ills. Ireland has been divided in many ways and for many years, both before and after the Union (even if we limit our reference point to that).
And any rerun of any border poll could be on any number of terms: other counties may wish to rejoin the Union, all 32 counties may wish to rejoin the Union; we could have a Federal Union, and so on.
If that is all you mean then of course that would happen.
Do you think if England put together a new economic union with India, Australia and other members of the commonwealth and decide to do away with the UK that if Ireland would be better off economically it would not be put to the people for referendum?
Of course it will. Any country would. Ireland is a country, Scotland is a country, northern Ireland is an isolated sectarian partition within a country which means we will be the last to even know what will happen.
England will be more interested in Dublin signing up and improving their economy than they will in subsidising this shit hole.
It frustrates me that you cant even see this.
Good evening Jessica.
“England will be more interested in Dublin signing up and improving their economy than they will in subsidising this shit hole.
It frustrates me that you cant even see this.”
Except that I can; see below where I said:
“I don’t really know what England’s motivation in all of this is, but I suspect they want rid of us – indeed they may have more affinity with Fine Gael types in the Republic now, than Ulster’s Unionists, given recent events.”
Whatever we think of England, they are economically competent and have the bank balance to get their way in global affairs.
The worst thing that could happen to Ireland is a left wing socialist government getting into power, whether that be Sinn Fein or any other party.
If Sinn Fein truly want to unite Ireland, they need to move closer to center left and plan to build our economy before planning to bankrupt it.
The ironic thing is that pro capitalism republicans such as myself who have total confidence in Irelands ability to develop a strong global economy would require protestant/unionist support to achieve it as well as the good will of nations such as England and the EU which puts us in a precarious position.
And the other thing is this, and maybe you would like to write an article on it, Jessica?
Whatever we think of Ireland’s tax deal with Apple, the clear ramifications are, that it is now be clear that the Republic of Ireland is no longer an independent sovereign state.
From the EU today:
” “Member states cannot give tax benefits to selected companies – this is illegal under EU state aid rules,” said Commissioner Margrethe Vestager.”
Ireland (a supposedly sovereign nation) now finds itself accountable to EU law rather than its own Parliament, acting illegally according to that EU law and therefore not free to determine its own tax policy.
And I emphasise – whether you agree or disagree with Ireland’s tax policy towards Apple, it remains the case that it is now being told by the EU that it is not allowed to be in charge of its own Treasury.
In that context, my suggestion for another vote in the years following any United Ireland is reasonable.
Indeed, it may even be the case that in any Border Poll to take place now, the question asked should make reference to all available options, some of which are:
The Continuation of Partition
A United Republican Ireland (which is I suspect what most people think of as the only alternative option – but 1916 is long gone – and the RoI is not this today)
Ireland to reunite and then rejoin the United Kingdom – which I have called, ‘A United Ireland in a United Kingdom’
A Federal Union of the Isles, with the Republic of Ireland leaving the EU and becoming a sovereign nation again.
A Federal Union of the Commonwealth nations.
A Federal Ireland in a larger Federal Union outside the EU.
Feel free to add others.
I totally agree Peter.
I have said for some time now that Ireland is no longer a sovereign nation and wont be until it leaves the EU.
I am no supporter of the EU, but neither too is Ireland even nearly ready to leave and stand on our own two feet.
In fact I would say Ireland would never be ready while it is partitioned.
Bankers led Fianna Fail by the nose for many terms and the southern establishment got very corrupt and greedy with dubious side deals to say he least.
The were wheeler dealers in government and bereft of competence.
The US have promised to go after all outstanding taxes and I believe they will get them and I would support them in this endeavour.
Ireland should be treated as though these taxes were collected and made pay to the revenue to the states in question whether they took the money or not.
Not only is it money stolen from the public purse in Ireland but also from other public purses also.
You cannot allow a company to incorporate itself in your jurisdiction, and then allow it to syphon funds into offshore accounts under phantom names where there is zero tax policies in place. Whatever parties allowed this to happen should be held responsible but the money needs to be paid whether it was collected or not in my opinion.
My own preference would be for a united and sovereign Ireland in a federal union of the British isles, either in a wider economic union with India, Australia and other commonwealth nations if England can muster such a union, or as part of the same blok inside a reformed EU with immigration under the control of the British isles with a points based system as in Australia.
“My own preference would be for a united and sovereign Ireland in a federal union of the British isles, either in a wider economic union with India, Australia and other commonwealth nations if England can muster such a union, or…”
Jessica, while this does not yet put us in agreement, it does move our positions closer, and I have no major objection to discussions relating to a Federal Union of the British Isles which includes a United Ireland.
And I certainly think that strengthening links North/South and East/West is a possible way forward.
In my view, a balance of national autonomy and what we could call ‘inter-national-Isles-union’ and co-operation is worth a conversation.”
Beyond that, we are most certainly agreed on this:
“The worst thing that could happen to Ireland is a left wing socialist government getting into power,”
and on this:
“The ironic thing is that pro capitalism republicans such as myself who have total confidence in Irelands ability to develop a strong global economy would require protestant/unionist support to achieve it as well as the good will of nations such as England
You’re right, you need us.
“Jessica, while this does not yet put us in agreement, it does move our positions closer, and I have no major objection to discussions relating to a Federal Union of the British Isles which includes a United Ireland.”
Where we disagree is that I would welcome discussions on any reasonable options without any preconditions.
I accept there will be difficulties to be overcome, but we can hardly do that without discussing them and they aren’t going to go away until we do.
“You’re right, you need us.”
I of course accept this since it was me suggested it, but I would also like to think of it as we need each other. Our society will never prosper until we can work together.
LOL/.
So the Artificial Northern Statelet has been a failure since 1922 some 94 years..But a United ireland gets 3- 5 years to prove it’s mettle?
Ya gotta love unionists.
Gotta love ’em.
“LOL”
Didn’t know you were a member. What number?
Another outreach initiative ? Why not, it’s been a run away success so far…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nC_abUffrcE
Séanna, I have lost all faith that unionism is capable of reason or compromise. It is self serving and belligerent and will not change right to the edge of the abyss, even on the precipice of its own demise, it will go over the edge and do as much damage as it can on the way down.
I hope I am wrong, but after 18 months debating on this blog, I have seen very little in way of compromise suggested. Even the leadership of unionism talking about ending the border is considered surrender.
Personally, I am finished with Stormont and I don’t believe it is capable of anything other than humiliation. We will therefore need another means of triggering a border poll than British elections.
If we extend the right to vote for who leads the Irish nation the way the US offer their citizens, then I would happily vote in Irish elections and hopefully that will be acceptable.
Alternatively, if Sinn Fein make it clearer a vote for them in the next election is a vote for an end of partition and therefore a border poll in itself, then I would also vote for that.
“Alternatively, if Sinn Fein make it clearer a vote for them in the next election is a vote for an end of partition and therefore a border poll in itself, then I would also vote for that.”
Can Sinn Fein guarantee an end to partition? No. Can they guarantee a border poll? No.
Have Sinn Fein not been doing this, as a “republican party” aspiring to end British rule in Ireland and reunify the country, namely ending partition? In the Assembly election one of their pledges was to build momentum towards Irish Unity – was this not enough for you to vote them, as I recall, you binned your voting card?
Thing is, Jessica, if Sinn Fein say it or not, do you actually believe they will achieve it? Thus far, how have Sinn Fein furthered the cause of Irish unity through their engagement in electoral politics? Conor Murphy was asked a question by Nolan prior to the Assembly elections on how Sinn Fein was promoting a United Ireland and all he could answer was that Sinn Fein was doing “roadshows” and “workshops” – is that enough? I feel Sinn Fein are more a hindrance to Irish Unity than a solution to it – do they actually know how to end partition?
“Can Sinn Fein guarantee an end to partition? No. Can they guarantee a border poll? No. ”
No political party here can comrade. But if they make it clearer that this is what a vote for them means then they will have mine all the same. Would you lend your vote to them under those terms, to force a border poll? Remember they can bring down the assembly and force such a vote at any time they choose.
“In the Assembly election one of their pledges was to build momentum towards Irish Unity – was this not enough for you to vote them, as I recall, you binned your voting card? ”
No, it was not enough for me to vote for Stormont. Irish unity must supersede all election pledges and I have no interest in Stormont’s existence as an assembly.
You are correct, I could not go through with it and binned it at the school door and left.
“Thing is, Jessica, if Sinn Fein say it or not, do you actually believe they will achieve it? ”
Yes I do, with all my heart I do.
I believe the original strategy is in tatters and unless Jeremy Corbyn manages the unthinkable and leads Labour back into power in the near future then there is no reviving it.
What is required is a new strategy and there are too many changes going on at the moment with brexit and a reform of the UK being discussed. All there is at the moment is the expressed will of the majority here to remain in the EU – but our people are being let down the longer we are left in limbo.
But on the positive side, Sinn Fein have more friends in the Scottish parliament and in Westminster than unionism has. They have more friends in the US and in the EU. They have more friends in businesses throughout Ireland, they have global connections and the support of the majority of the Irish people throughout this planet. They have faced down the most bitter and biased media campaign of vilification I have ever witnessed and came out the other side as the largest political party on the island of Ireland having stood in less constituencies.
They have met unionist bigotry and intolerance with respect and compromise. They have shown no ill will towards those who berate them and they are increasing their electoral coverage into every single part of Ireland, with the most talented politically motivated young people on this Ireland joining their ranks.
Fianna Fail are propping up the current regime and will face their first test in 5 weeks with the next budget. I believe the government will survive it but I do not expect it to survive for more then 3 years.
By extending into new areas their vote will already increase.
The last all island democratic expression of independence was won by Sinn Fein who created the first Dail. By bringing down Stormont at the same time as the next Dail election, Sinn Fein could if they choose create the circumstances of another all Island election standing once again on an independence platform as they did in 1918. They are the only party that can do this but it has to be timed to the mood of the nation. Unionism can only go one direction from here and that is down.
I think Sinn Fein have made mistakes, but they have far more pieces in place than anyone else by a long way.
“do they actually know how to end partition”
Yes, so do I, it can only happen through cooperation between both states in its implementation.
And that can only happen when a majority vote for it as per the terms in the GFA
And that will only happen after reasonable and televised debate with all parties putting forward their views and the people making an informed choice much like the Scottish referendum
And that will only happen when the British secretary of state decides it which actually takes the pressure off Sinn Fein
And that will only happen when the timing is right and an event takes place which transforms opinion in that direction
The next such planned event will be the 2021 census which will change opinions here utterly
Another will be the next assembly elections which will see the first rapid and substantial overall decline in the unionist vote which will continue in rapid decline and will trigger movement of people over to britain when they sense the change is inevitable
Other possible options could be the collapse of the Dail or Stormont
The breakup of the UK post brexit or any number of possibilities
PF do you really think once mother England gets rid of us she’d be open to a reversal and take the north back? I think mot my friend.
Ciarán
I don’t really know what England’s motivation in all of this is, but I suspect they want rid of us – indeed they may have more affinity with Fine Gael types in the Republic now, than Ulster’s Unionists, given recent events.
But I suppose I’m wondering if it would be possible to revisit the Nation question from time to time – you know, self determination and all that.
This may be off topic but can someone please give me the name of the Susan MacKay book on the north of Ireland’s Protestants?
I would like to understand more of her view , on her own people.
I found one called ‘ Northern Protestants, An Unsettled People.’ Would that be the one recommended?
Thank you.
Jim Lynch
I’m pretty sure that’s the book in question, Jim..
Thank you Jude, much appreciated.
Currently reading this book and can’t believe the level of deeply ingrained animosity towards the Catholics in the north. So sad really…..
Yes, animosity towards Catholics is deeply ingrained, and it is wrong.
There are also many who have no animosity towards Catholics.
“There are also many who have no animosity towards Catholics.”
So long as we know our place, eh Peter.
Jessica
No. Not at all. I’ve very clearly said:
“Yes, animosity towards Catholics is deeply ingrained, and it is wrong.”
followed up by
“There are also many who have no animosity towards Catholics.”
There is no hint, at all, in what I have said about anyone knowing their place, and none is intended.
My position is clear: animosity towards Catholics is wrong. (note the full stop!) 🙂
“The recently departed and no doubt sorely missed Theresa Villiers told us that the conditions don’t exist to allow for the triggering of a referendum on the ending of partition. I suppose that whatever conditions existed she would say that anyway.” So was Theresa Villiers wrong? James Brokenshire has reiterated Villiers sentiments – is he wrong ? In your opinion, Do the conditions exist for the triggering of a referendum? How have Sinn Fein, Seanna, facilitated the conditions that would allow for the triggering of a referendum? What if a referendum was triggered and it failed, which in the short term it probably would? You cite a number of groupings throughout whom are a concern – how do Sinn Fein aim to convince them of the merits of a border poll?
“It should be acknowledged that the establishment in the north have been very successful in convincing a section of the nationalist electorate that their interests are best served by remaining in the union with Britain” – where’s your evidence to suggest this? What percentage of Nationalism would fall into this category? Is this because those favouring and aspiring to a United Ireland have failed to convince the nationalist community that their interests are best serve in same?
Seanna, tell me – what is Sinn Fein’s strategy to achieve a United Ireland? Do Sinn Fein have a strategy? Where is their blueprint? Their road map? What would a United Ireland look like? Health, education, economy, welfare et al? Martin McGuinness, stated, I think in 2001, that a United Ireland would be achieved by 2016 – Why did this endeavour fail? Not only fail, it failed miserably – in my opinion we are no closer to a United Ireland than we were in 2001. This rhetoric that a United Ireland will eventually happen is completely and utterly without foundation – as you cited in your article, demographics that Sinn Fein were dependent upon in their argument for many years are not as simplistic as once thought. A lot of groundwork needs done before a border poll is even a consideration – in Sinn Fein last Assmebly manifesto, priority number 9 was to build momentum for a United Ireland – what’s Sinn Fein been doing on the national question for all these years, if in 2016, they are only aiming to “build momentum” – is this prove, that to day, Sinn Fein have failed on this issue?
“section of the nationalist/republican community who had previously been supportive of the strategy driven by the Republican Leadership but have lost enthusiasm and faith in the Sinn Féin stewardship of the drive to end partition.” What strategy? Can you inform me further of this “strategy” that Sinn Fein have propagated in an attempt to “end partition”?
“There are those within this cohort who are implacably opposed to each and every aspect of our politics and the direction of current strategy.” Yes your right – and what’s wrong with that? Do Sin Fein ever ask themselves why this “cohort” oppose the politics of Sinn Fein and their current strategy – whatever that strategy is. Do you not feel that many supporters of the party felt let down by Sinn Fein’s commitment on welfare Reform to renege? Their commitment to austerity to renege – don’t play the victim, Seanna, a lot of ex Sinn Fein voters now oppose the party for a variety of reasons and maybe it would serve Sinn Fein better to engage with these people and listen to their concerns – I stood with a SF MLA before the Assembly election and because I questioned the party on a number of issues / policies, I got the evil eye and he walked away from me, failing to address any of the questions I posed. Don’t forget, the cohort you allude too include those who Sinn Fein demonise daily and question their republican and even socialist credentials – in my opinion credentials Sinn Fein need not question anyone on.
“What if a referendum was triggered and it failed, which in the short term it probably would?”
Do you seriously believe that comrade?
I would bet my life that it would pass easily.
“It should be acknowledged that the establishment in the north have been very successful in convincing a section of the nationalist electorate that their interests are best served by remaining in the union with Britain” – where’s your evidence to suggest this? ”
You have just proven it comrade, you just said you think a referendum would fail. Why should one be called while nationalists don’t believe it will work.
Are we that institutionalised just like Scotland, the closer we get to independence, are we going to bottle it at the last step?
“Is this because those favouring and aspiring to a United Ireland have failed to convince the nationalist community that their interests are best serve in same?”
Such convincing is only the gift of those who are in power and the Good Friday Agreement prevents them from interfering one way or another.
“what is Sinn Fein’s strategy to achieve a United Ireland? ”
The strategy was based around Labour being in power. That is not going to happen now and there is no plan B.
“who Sinn Fein demonise daily”
Who does Sinn Fein demonise daily?
Jessica – what makes you think “it would pass easily” – do you seriously believe this? where’s the evidence it would “pass easily”? Not even pass, pass easily? If Sinn Fein believed this, they would be singing for a border poll from the high heavens. With your certainty, why aren’t the SDLP, FG, FF filled with the confidence to push the SOS into allowing for the provision of a border poll? Why aren’t they presenting the SOs with this “evidence” you must somewhat have? Interestingly in today’s Irish News, Deaglan De Breadun, dosent share your optimism and believes a border poll soon “would be resoundingly defeated.”
Sinn Fein have found themselves in the current predicament, calls from the sidelines for a border poll, because of BREXIT not because of their “strategy” or their momentum and drive for Irish unity – and as far as I can see, it’s out of their depth – they are in a state of confusion as to where to next? I attended a Sinn Fein post Brexit meeting in Belfast and being honest the question around Irish Unity was met with complete disillusionment – they don’t know how to get there, yet you believe a border poll would “pass easily”.
What exactly would people be voting for if they voted yes? What does unity mean for the common man and woman? Is the a guarantee that in the event of a “certain” yes vote, that our lives will be better? Please tell me, as of yet, I’ve never had an answer from anyone to this question.
I think, Jessica, any rational thinking individual with any understanding of the political scene would believe a border poll in the “short term” would fail. That’s perhaps a realistic view, not from the heart, but from the head. A border poll now, I believe, is the horse before the cart – caution not to derail the Irish unity aspiration must not happen – I fully agree with Chris Donnelly when he states the priority for Irish Nationalists is to “create the conditions, north and south, in which a unity vote can be won and a new political dispensation developed which involves sovereignty transferring from a UK context to an all-Ireland one.” As things stand the conditions are not there. The ground work needs to be undertaken – support needs to be garnered, an all-Ireland model of health, education,
Welfare, housing etc needs agreed and sold to the people. There needs to be a measured approach. De Breadun further states “anyone who is serious about ultimate unity and has given the matter some thought must be aware that a vast amount of groundwork needs to be done.” I totally concur with him.
“Why should one be called while nationalists don’t believe it will work.” Why should one be called when the groundwork I talk about above needs to be undertaken? Why are you in such a rush? Do the people calling for a border poll believe it would work? How would it work? This is a long term project – not something that should be jeopardised as a short term rush of blood.
“Are we that institutionalised just like Scotland, the closer we get to independence, are we going to bottle it at the last step?” How close are we to independence? Should we not be taking the first step, never mind the last step? Your running before you are walking, Jessica. As I’ve pointed out there’s needs to be a strategy -we’ve witnessed the confusion around BREXIT because of lack of strategy – would you be happy with the confusion around a border poll?
“The strategy was based around Labour being in power. That is not going to happen now and there is no plan B.” Was there a Plan A as your not convincing me? What strategy? What difference would Labour have made? The detail is is in the GFA, regardless – were Labour going to override the agreement this help negotiate and generate?
De Breadun finishes “if, after all that, only a narrow majority was achieved, that would be a recipe for instability and possibly violence. The pro unity side would need to win big.” This in itself is a major challenge … History and all that …
If you are asking for guarantees comrade, that is not how democracy works.
I am confident it will pass because I have total confidence that it is the most economically viable option and that in the absence of conflict it is inevitable.
I also have the luxury of not being connected to any political party and therefore not having the same responsibility or pressures that they would have.
Having said that, I would still bet my life on it.
A border poll where the people are not given a clear and informed choice will quite likely result in an err on caution.
This did not happen in brexit as the English are a more confident nation who see themselves worthy of their place at the top table in world affairs.
Ireland in contrast is led by parties who are comparatively weak and lack confidence in their own ability and the ability of the Irish people.
They have grown accustomed to their place on the coat tails of England and do not have the vision or competence to lead Ireland into a sovereign nation.
In that regard I would concur with Deaglan that a border poll that does not offer a genuine attempt at building a new nation would fail and would be little more than a publicity stunt. Any border poll must be based on genuine proposals and include a financial incentive reflective of the long term savings and benefits to both states and therefore these must be discussed with sincerity by both states.
The current Sinn Fein strategy is to lead Ireland firstly from Dublin as the largest party in the Dail. Only the party that leads from Dublin can unite Ireland.
If you are expecting them to provide proof they can unite this country before that, then you need a reality check.
The ground work for Irish unity started years ago. For the GFA to be accepted by London, they had first to remove all restrictions on giving this part of Ireland up. That would have been the most vital and difficult step to pass (almost an impossibility to conceive at one point) and it has already been approved.
De Breadun fails to mention this so bear that in mind when considering the comprehensiveness of his views.
The rest is just down to timing and political maturity.
The energy infrastructure will be in an all island basis by 2019 with the introduction of the new interconnector and all of the pieces will be in place by then.
Any border poll should be allowed a 2 year minimum period to discuss the details just as Scotland were afforded and that is why I believe now is the time to start discussing this in a more serious fashion.
This will and must be the starting point for the ground work towards what unification will actually look like.
As with Brexit, you cannot have a detailed strategy before you have the permission from the people to produce it, at least not officially.
It is not me who has the cart before the horse on this issue.
The first step should be the details of what the border poll will be to vote on and this must have sufficient detail to allow an informed choice.
That should also not be in the ownership of any one political party.
I remain totally confident because I can imagine what will come out of such debate.
What I will do is produce a ground map of what I envisage and post it here so others can comment and propose other suggestions. Perhaps Judes site can actually produce this blueprint so many are calling for prior to a border poll being actually initiated.
I am shirking work at the moment but will do this this evening.
Comrade Magee
Good luck with hoping to get a response from Seanna to your questions!Sounds more like a Connolly House production facilitated by this blogspot.Maybe you’ll get lucky.
I just started to re read Mc Kay’s book . It is well worthwhile and I wonder how much , if anything , has changed in the Protestand community.
“I just started to re read Mc Kay’s book . It is well worthwhile and I wonder how much , if anything , has changed in the Protestand community.”
A dreadful book premised on a range of interviews disproportionately with extremists and entirely unrepresentative, yet passed off as such.
A dangerous book as it reinforces the sectarian prejudices of people.like Ryan from whom the book represents his only insight into his neighbours.
I suppose Susan Mac Kay is a journalist of low standing and without any credentials and not of the protestant community who has shown herself to be a Lundy by writing this book? MT, whoever you are, please realise that it did not take this book to show us what many already knew. Rather, it merely highlights the fact that a large majority of protestant people harbour these views of Catholics and Catholicism in general. While your indignation towards the book must be given space, it also demonstrates your inability to take an introverted look at yourself and the deep biases that emanate from your community. Yes there also biases from within the nationalist community but what is needed id duality and reciprocation. Sadly, this is lacking greatly in the unionist community who continue to see the recent troubles as one sided. Northern protestants is a very well written book, easily accessible to all and in the words of David Ervine, true, frightening and painful.
“I suppose Susan Mac Kay is a journalist of low standing and without any credentials and not of the protestant community who has shown herself to be a Lundy by writing this book?”
If you think so.
“MT, whoever you are, please realise that it did not take this book to show us what many already knew. Rather, it merely highlights the fact that a large majority of protestant people harbour these views of Catholics and Catholicism in general.”
Well you’re proving my point already, because McKay’s book didn’t show that at all. It showed only that a large number (possibly a majority, I can’t remember) of the people she interviewed had such views. And it is not the case either that ‘a large majority’ of Protestant people harbour extreme anti-Catholic views such as those articulated in the book.
What you have just said demonstrates the danger of the book in reinforcing prejudices in readers such as yourself and Ryan, for whom, because of their social isolation, it is their only window into the Protestant community.
“While your indignation towards the book must be given space, it also demonstrates your inability to take an introverted look at yourself and the deep biases that emanate from your community.”
It doesn’t, because I don’t have such an inability. In fact I do look at myself and community with a critical mind.
‘And it is not the case either that ‘a large majority’ of Protestant people harbour extreme anti-Catholic views such as those articulated in the book.’ How do you know that?
“And it is not the case either that ‘a large majority’ of Protestant people harbour extreme anti-Catholic views such as those articulated in the book.’ How do you know that?”
I suggest the onus is on those making the charge to prove it.
However, I know it from living within the community so charged for most of my life, and continuing to mix and engage within that community today.
“I suggest the onus is on those making the charge to prove it. ”
Yet you asked me to prove Roger Casement was not a paedophile when I am not aware of an evidence that suggests he was. Words in a black diary that defines no ages that could well have been doctored as his sister suggested would not be sufficient evidence in a trial today.
Let MT cast the first stone for he is the all knowing one.
“Yet you asked me to prove Roger Casement was not a paedophile when I am not aware of an evidence that suggests he was.”
I didn’t. I asked how you knew he wasn’t a paedophile *in the face of* evidence that he was.
“Words in a black diary that defines no ages that could well have been doctored as his sister suggested would not be sufficient evidence in a trial today.”
Of course they could be used in evidence in a trial. But how is a trial relevant?
Incidentally on reflection I do not believe that he was likely to have been a paedophile. Pederast is a better description as his predatory instincts were more than likely towards young teenage boys rather than prepubescent boys.
Regardless, hardly suitable for a statue.
You are entitled to your opinion MT.
I think it is shameful that he does not have a memorial and is fully deserving of one.
It appears we are easily manipulated over matters of pride.
I suppose a historic Irish weakness.
“You are entitled to your opinion MT.”
Obviously.
“I think it is shameful that he does not have a memorial and is fully deserving of one.
It appears we are easily manipulated over matters of pride.”
Not sure how pride is relevant, but I do see that his history of being a predatory pederast is quite a stain on his character such that makes him unsuitable for a statue.
You will never change MT 🙂
MT, i resent the fact that you feel i harbour prejudices against the protestant community and that this book is my only window into that community. I drove school buses for ten years for a living and serviced a protestant estate in Derry’s nWaterside for eight of those years. I never had any problem with any of the mothers and fathers in that area which would be regarded in Derry as exclusively loyalist. What i have been trying to say is exactly what the book has said, that many Protestants have views of the nature I previously described. Given that I was Catholic in their area, politics was never introduced into any discourse I may have had with them, it does not remove the possibility that those with whom I conversed did not hold biased views of my community. I await your dissection of my comment through your narrow prism of thought.
“MT, i resent the fact that you feel i harbour prejudices against the protestant community ”
I’m afraid you’ve only yourself to blame, as I’m responding to your words, viz “a large majority of protestant people harbour these views of Catholics and Catholicism in general.”
“and that this book is my only window into that community. I drove school buses for ten years for a living and serviced a protestant estate in Derry’s nWaterside for eight of those years. I never had any problem with any of the mothers and fathers in that area which would be regarded in Derry as exclusively loyalist.”
So despite your personal experience of Protestants being largely positive (or at least not negative) you still believe that “a large majority of protestant people harbour these views of Catholics and Catholicism in general.” That seems to me to indicate prejudice.
“What i have been trying to say is exactly what the book has said, that many Protestants have views of the nature I previously described.”
Nobody has disputed that, but that’s not what you said.
“Given that I was Catholic in their area, politics was never introduced into any discourse I may have had with them, it does not remove the possibility that those with whom I conversed did not hold biased views of my community.”
Yet despite acknowledging this “possibility” (how magnanimous of yiu), you still choose to believe that the majority are bigots.
“I await your dissection of my comment through your narrow prism of thought.”
I don’t have a narrow prism of thought.
Séanna not only does the GFA stipulate that a border poll already needs to look like a foregone conclusion, it also clearly states that a majority of unionists have to agree to the poll being held. Therefore a necessary prerequisite for such a poll being held is scrapping the very thing the Shinners state is the path to unification.
“Séanna not only does the GFA stipulate that a border poll already needs to look like a foregone conclusion, it also clearly states that a majority of unionists have to agree to the poll being held. ”
It stipulates neither of those things.
It should be acknowledged that the establishment in the north have been very successful in convincing a section of the nationalist electorate that their interests are best served by remaining in the union with Britain and the preservation of the current border.
I would have to say the ‘establishment’ has been successful in this due to very fact nationalist school teachers have been doing the ‘convincing’ for them for some time now Or rather I should say nationalist teachers are not permitted to veer from the standard narrative I.e northernirelandism.
The lack of informing students about their history on this Ireland, in schools in my town is startling. They’d rather inform them of British history. The British and unionists are not stupid. They gave probably the most important ministerial portfolio(if you want to preserve and protect the interest of a state), education, to SF. They not only got nationalists schools to oversee the future indoctrination of northernirelandisation upon its pupils, they also got SF ministers to oversee the whole operation.
How does anyone get a grasp of Irish history if they are only taught about 1969 up to1981, and a snippet about Easter week in 1916? How on earth will future generations(whom I assume will be confronted with this border poll) attach or feel any bond with their Irish history whilst being taught more about English history and US history?
When teachers state ‘I would like a United ireland but the timing isn’t right cos we couldn’t afford this couldn’t afford that’, what chance has a kid even contemplating it? It’s a farce and republicans blinded by power are complicit in this farce knowingly or unknowingly.
‘Keep your eyes on the prize’….? The British and unionists have never took their eyes of it.
Ask not what a United Ireland can do for you, but what you can do for a United Ireland. You’ll not hear that in being said in a classroom that’s for sure anytime soon.