On the face of it, the case was open-and-shut: Glasgow Celtic fans had displayed Palestinian flags, so the club was fined, since such flags are it seems forbidden at football matches.
But why would displaying Palestinian flags be seen as provocative? Presumably because Celtic at the time were playing an Israeli club, and the Israelis would be offended.
Which prompts the further question: why would they be offended? Because…well because it might provoke people into looking at Israeli treatment of Palestinians. You probably have a general idea but here are a few specifics from Human Rights Watch.
- In 2015, Palestinians killed at least 17 Israeli civilians and 3 Israeli soldiers. Israeli security forces killed at least 120 Palestinians and injured at least 11,000.
- In June 2015, a United Nations inquiry report on the 2014 Israel-Gaza war stated that Israeli forces committed serious laws-of-war violations, including attacking homes without any apparent military target, using artillery and high explosive weapons indiscriminately in populated areas, and targeting civilians not involved in hostilities.
It’s these kind of horror-stories that prompted the Palestinian flags to appear at Glasgow Celtic’s home game, and for which they will be fined. Very often demonstrations such as these are claimed as anti-Semitic, since they criticize the actions of Israel. In the case of Celtic, that was a little difficult, since the Celtic crowd gave a standing ovation to their Israeli mid-fielder Nir Biton, when he was substituted.
The treatment of Palestinians by Israel, especially those in the Gaza Strip, is notorious for its ruthlessness and brutality. Again and again the Israeli state has been found guilty of ignoring international injunctions and even the human rights of defenceless people. But such is the power of the Jewish lobby in the United States, nothing is ever done to curb their cruelty. On the contrary: show a flag that even hints you don’t like what they’re doing, and you’ll be fined.
It’s the kind of intransigence that would make you weep – except that we in the north of Ireland are familiar with intransigence.
For a fuller, more professional look at the Celtic-Palestinian flags matter, check out the response of the Guardian’s Kevin McKenna at https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/27/why-celtic-fans-flew-flag-for-palestine
was the smashing of jewish headstones connected,or just scroats full of glue.
“was the smashing of jewish headstones connected,or just scroats full of glue”
Full of glue Billy. As a teenager I was in the City Graveyard once, its a drinking den and has been for years. What goes unreported is that headstones get damaged in there all the time by kids off their heads. A lot of teenagers from the Whiterock area go in at the weekends for a quiet place to drink and get up to no good. I was in a taxi a few weeks ago at night passing it and I could hear shouting and rave music coming from within it. Just glad none of my family are buried there.
I condemn all headstones and graves being attacked, including Republican graves attacked by Loyalists in Milltown. But headstones getting smashed is no where near as bad as kids getting blown apart by Israeli air strikes.
I differ from the vast majority of my fellow Republicans in that I support Israel and it`s right to exist. Maybe it is a guilty conscience about the horrors inflicted on the Jews by fellow Europeans in the Thirties, or maybe it is because of the hateful, vicious, anti Jewish propaganda taught in Palestinian `schools` and other Muslim `places of education`. The answer to the Palestinian problem is very simple, both sides must accept the other sides right to exist. It is of course mainly up to Israel to sue for peace as it has more power, but the answer can not be found in launching rocket attacks. Ask yourself this question, what would the Palestinians do if they possessed the same weapons as the Israelis? I think we all know the answer to that one.
“Maybe it is a guilty conscience about the horrors inflicted on the Jews by fellow Europeans in the Thirties”
Guilty conscience?? why would you or any European today feel guilty over what happened in 1930’s Germany? Do you not feel guilty over what happened to the Poles? because far more Polish died than Jews in WW2. Over 90% of Warsaw was deliberately destroyed by the Germans and the City had to be redesigned using 16th century paintings by Italian artists the destruction was that bad. Over 20 million Russians died, do you feel guilty for them too? Or how about the 20 million Chinese that died? Or the hundreds of thousands of women raped countless times in the sex slave trade the Japanese Army ran?
Every people throughout history has been oppressed, the Jews aren’t unique. What happened in the 1930’s is no excuse whatsoever for what the Israeli’s are doing to the Palestinians. That’s the typical Zionist propaganda, making people feel “Guilty” over complete nonsense. They say 6 million Jews died in WW2 but yet figures clearly show no more than 1.5 million died but yet that figure of 6 million is still spun! But the 20 million Chinese civilians dying definitely is accurate but I guess some people are more equal than others!…
“both sides must accept the other sides right to exist”
AJ, if I barged into your house, took over all the rooms except the Living room and forced you and your family to live there, would you be saying we both have the right to exist in your house? No, I didn’t think so. So why should the Palestinians have to give up even an inch of their country for Zionists? These people are thieves. They are guilty of horrendous war crimes, even throughout history, eclipsing that even of the Soviets or the Nazis. Don’t insult Palestinians by saying they should respect the right of a state to exist when that same state murdered 500 Palestinian kids alone in the summer of 2014. That’s like asking Irish Republicans to respect the right of the British in Ireland. Its ridiculous. The British have no right to be in Ireland, nor do the Zionists have a right to carve up someone else’s country for themselves.
“because far more Polish died than Jews in WW2.”
Really?
Ever heard of Polish Jews?
ever heard of polish jews.
i remember the german jew in smithfield,bought gold and a bit of pruck.
“Every people throughout history has been oppressed, the Jews aren’t unique.”
They aren’t?
Some might say that Israel acts with restraint.
“Some might say that Israel acts with restraint.”
No one who would say that is welcome in Ireland.
And how would you enforce that?
“And how would you enforce that?”
Preferably by educating those who feel indiscriminate murder of men women and children and the appalling treatment of tens of thousands of people is under no circumstances considered showing restraint and that such comments are simply incitement of hatred which is unacceptable in Ireland. While freedom of speech is welcome, abuse of the right is not.
“Preferably by educating…”
Do you mean enforced education?
Deranged people might say they act with restraint but yeah some might say that.
“Deranged people might…”
And in absence of an argument, play the man.
“They say 6 million Jews died in WW2 but yet figures clearly show no more than 1.5 million died but yet that figure of 6 million is still spun!”
If you have a credible source for that figure, I’d be interested to read it.
“They say 6 million Jews died”
“died”?
Of all the verbs you could have chosen, you chose “died”?
Are you suggesting they didn’t, PF??
“Are you suggesting they didn’t, PF??”
Don’t be ridiculous, Jude, you’re more intelligent than that.
Then again, as the word appeared in the same sentence as figures more associated with Holocaust deniers, I suppose anything’s possible…
I see nothing wrong with ‘died’. We talk about 100,000+ people dying in Nagasaki, we talk about a million dying in An Gorta Mor. I like dying (well, not really, but you get my point) because it doesn’t get onto the bidding war of ‘murdered’ ‘done to death’ ‘slaughtered’ etc. People can choose to place ‘dying’ wherever they like on the list..
“I like dying (well, not really, but you get my point)…”
I do; your point is as clear as my point about the word “died”.
“…because it doesn’t get onto the bidding war of ‘murdered’ ‘done to death’ ‘slaughtered’ etc.”
“bidding war”?
How does that work: I see your gas chamber and raise you two?
Or maybe you mean to suggest that we get to keep moral judgements out of the discussion (it is the Holocaust we are referring to)? That’s certainly seems to be implied with your reference to a person’s choice.
But I suppose, yes, we could say that the Jewish people of Europe, along with those of the gay community, Soviet prisoners of war, those who were disabled and so on were ‘died’ by the Nazis.
Perhaps your next point will be grammatical?
Now you’re being silly, PF. If you saw a piece that talked of the millions who died in the Great Hunger, the hundreds of thousands who died in the atomic bomb attacks – would you be peeved? I doubt it. And neither would I be peeved, even though I think both events were appalling. I think the Holocaust was appalling too – even more appalling, given the millions involved. But I learnt during the Troubles to speak of people being killed or dying, rather than murdered or slaughtered. It’s not a grammatical issue in any case, it’s a semantic one. Anyway, don’t try bullying people into using your phraseology. It has the opposite effect.
I’m not being silly at all.
You know very well that to avoid the use of any other word, is to avoid mentioning the cause of a person’s death. The cause of the Holocaust deaths is not unknown – it was the result of a deliberate action aimed at the eradication of particular human beings.
“If you saw a piece that talked of the millions who died in the Great Hunger, the hundreds of thousands who died in the atomic bomb attacks – would you be peeved? I doubt it.”
Let us remember that my comment to Ryan was in the context of Ryan’s approach towards the language of Holocaust denial, something I have already flagged up, at least three times now. And in that context I have every right to be peeved. In the same way, if anyone sought to minimise the impact of the Irish Famine or the attacks on Japan, on the people of Ireland or the people of Japan by deliberately understating the number killed, I would have every right to be peeved, and would be.
“But I learnt during the Troubles to speak of people being killed or dying,”
“Killed” implies cause in a way that “died” does not.
“It’s not a grammatical issue in any case, it’s a semantic one.”
If you must be pedantic, it’s both.
“Anyway, don’t try bullying people into using your phraseology.”
You can always delete my comments.
Either way, my point about the use of words to imply a relative morality, and how objectionable that is in relation to the Holocaust, stands.
And we are still in want of a source for the stated 1.5 million.
“It’s the kind of intransigence that would make you weep – except that we in the north of Ireland are familiar with intransigence”
Indeed, hence why the Palestinians have a lot of sympathy in the North, along with other oppressed peoples around the world.
“But such is the power of the Jewish lobby in the United States, nothing is ever done to curb their cruelty”
The Zionists own America and most Western countries. Not all Zionists are Jews though, the WASP’s (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) in the USA pander to Zionist Jews. Indeed many American Bible Belt raised Protestants are more hardcore Zionist than most Jews are. Every US President is surrounded by Zionists, including Barack Obama. Every US President hopeful must get the backing of the Zionists, hence the unlimited support for Israel from Donald Trump and Hilary Clinton. Only Bernie Sanders (a Jew, btw) criticized Israel and spoke out in favour of the Palestinians, and as we see now he’s out of the race to be President.
“Very often demonstrations such as these are claimed as anti-Semitic”
Just buzzwords. The author of “The Holocaust Industry” – Norman G. Finkelstein was accused of being an anti-Semite despite the fact that he is Jewish and his mother and father were both in Auschwitz lol Its ridiculous. Finkelstein’s crime? Sticking up for Palestinians. Such buzzwords are there to silence people. Words like “Racist” (invented by Communist Leon Trotsky) and “Homophobia” are used to not challenge arguments but to silence people from making them. Its a form of fascism. Its a form of Psychological Warfare too. For example, someone says: “I don’t support immigration” then your a “racist!”. Someone says “I don’t believe in same sex marriage” then your a “homophobic bigot!”. And so on. The message is “Don’t you dare speak out against the far left agenda, if you do? You’ll be smeared”.
The Zionists use the buzzword “Anti-Semitism” to try to silence critics of their horrendous crimes too.
You summed it up,perfectly Ryan. Unfortunately folk only think they know the full facts of ww2 etc. For example the 27+million Russians that gave their lives to defeat the Nazis is not really considered. You would be forgiven for thinking that there’s a degree of racism when folk ignore the deaths of others. To hear some who should know better you would think the US and britland suffered the most to ‘free us from Hitler’. But sure why let the facts get in the way…….
“For example the 27+million Russians that gave their lives to defeat the Nazis is not really considered.”
Oh, I suspect it is.
The problem with the Holocaust, however (which included Soviet prisoners of war, Soviet civilians, Polish civilians, Yugoslav civilians, those with disabilities, and others), is that in terms of the Jewish people the Nazi policy was one of the deliberate and indefatigable extermination of an entire ethnic identity.
A bit like the English adventurers ,then?
fiosrach
Clarity, man, clarity. Gird up your loins and make your accusation clear.
You’re just trying to minimize the significance of the holocaust by introducing other unrelated tragedies which is a common tactic of holocaust revisionists, Wolfe Tone. In perspective, the holocaust is nowadays seen as a culmination of thousands of years of persecution and genocide of the Jewish people which is absolutely the correct way it should be seen imho. No-one is saying that during the holocaust and WW2 the Nazis did not persecute and murder other groups of people too so please stop trying to infer that they are.
“Indeed, hence why the Palestinians have a lot of sympathy in the North, along with other oppressed peoples around the world.”
Actually, the North of Ireland is one of the most bigoted places on earth when it comes to LGBT rights. Shame on you.
Except, of course, that a Palestinian flag has nothing to do with Celtic, nothing to do with football and there wasn’t a Palestinian team playing; but sure…
“Except, of course, that a Palestinian flag has nothing to do with Celtic, nothing to do with football and there wasn’t a Palestinian team playing; but sure…”
It doesn’t have to be….. Celtic fans stood up for what is right and stood up for the oppressed people of Gaza. If you have an issue with that then you should really take a long hard look in the mirror, PF.
“If you have an issue with that…”
Oh I do , I absolutely do.
Do you also have an issue with Ajax fans flying the Israeli flag to which UEFA deems not punishable by fines etc?
How about Barca fans flying the Basque flag which again is not punishable?
Is it just the Palestinian flag?
I’d rather all politics was kept out of sport. I’d have thought that was obvious enough from my comments.
Strange how UEFA don’t deem the flying of those flags punishable eh?
You should check your facts.
JUST ANOTHER LIMERICK*
It does not feature, Palestine
On the International State Line
Locked out and banned
From the Promised Land
Welcome in Paradise of Jock Stein.
• Home of the Official Irish Pogrom.
Thoughtful as always, Jude but there has been no fine as yet. The hearing in UEFAs «Control, Ethics and Disciplinary Body» is on September 22nd and no doubt they will come down on Celtic like the proverbial ton of bricks. It so not the first time Celtic fans have shown solidarity with the Palestinians. The question needs to be put. Why is the national flag of Palestine defined by UEFA as an “illicit banner”? What other national flags are defined as such. Maybe I will send you a blog on just that 😉
Please do, Eddie…
I also support Israel’s right to exist. I do not support Israel’s illegal annexation, occupation and colonisation of land that does not belong to it. I do not support their disprotionate military actions nor their continued refusal to countenance the creation of a Palestinian State.
I agree Cal
The only way to resolve the Middle East question is through a two state solution.
The Palestinian territorial sovereignty in the West Bank needs to be respected by Israel and Israels right to exist and to live free from the fear of terrorism needs to be respected by the Palestinians.
I imagine the Palestinian people would love to live free from the fear of Israeli terrorism and for Israel to stop expanding its borders into their lands.
I agree Jessica but Israels right to exist must not be constantly threatened also.
There is no one in the middle east even remotely capable of threatening Israel’s right to exist Scott. To even suggest it is simply making excuses for indiscriminate murder and sectarian conflict.
No Jessica I think you’ll find that Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey all have the power to threaten Israel and some hardline Palestinians talk of driving the Jews into the sea.
Israel lives everyday knowing that it can win 100 wars against its Arab neighbors and still it will never be safe. It only has to lose one war and it is finished. We see in the Syrian civil war the level of sectarianism in the Middle East and if that’s what they do to there fellow Muslims imagine what they would do to the Jews if they defeated them.
This is not a justification for indiscriminate attacks by Israel btw just a honest appraisal of Israels position in the Middle East.
Do you think the Israeli state has a right to exist Jessica? Minus the West Bank and Gaza of course, as I said I feel there needs to be a two state solution.
After the hammering they gave Egypt last time they tried I doubt they will ever consider trying it again. The US has armed them to the teeth
Yes, I think Israel has a right to exist and Palestine have wanted an agreed border to cement this for a long time. I also think there should be economic sanctions enforced by the UN against them for their war crimes against Palestine.
This:
“There is no one in the middle east even remotely capable of threatening Israel’s right to exist…”
does not follow that:
“The US has armed them to the teeth.”
Israel has a clear military superiority over any nation in the middle east, by a long way thanks to the US
America has armed them both to the teeth Jessica.
Egypt has 220 US made F-16 fighter jets
Israel has around 300 F-16’s
The USA also sells its M1 Abrams battle tank to Egypt. 2000 odd of the I think.
“Israel has a clear military superiority over any nation in the middle east, by a long way thanks to the US”
Sorry Jessica but your factually just wrong here. Here’s a few figures for you
Israeli Defence force-
active personal 133,000
Main battle tanks 1440
Attack aircraft 426
Saudi Arabia-
Active personal 300,000
MBT 892
Aircraft 308
Turkey-
Active personal 325,000
MBT 2440
Aircraft 240
Egypt-
Active personal 310,000
MBT 2830
Aircraft 220
Israeli has often had to face 2 or 3 of there neighbors at once in war before also. On a one on one basis Israel only has the edge in air power, however during the Yom Kippur war Egypt negated this advance with surface to air missiles.
Israel constantly stands on the edge of a cliff and must always remain vigilant. Remember after the Holocaust they swore they would never be meekly driven to extermination again.
We Unionists may have a siege mentality, but it’s nothing compared to the Jews.
Just to note I’ve only counted relatively modern equipment and discounted any antiqued equipment they use
“We Unionists may have a siege mentality, but it’s nothing compared to the Jews.”
Do you think the siege mentality within unionism is justified or why do you think that is?
Nationalism could just as easily have a siege mentality having faced far more visually oppressive behaviour from the British state forces. We don’t and are far more open to reconciliation and trust than unionism.
I would love to know why this is, especially since it was unionism that brought violence onto the streets in the first place and the fears which led to this in the 60s have been discredited.
Awk Jessica it was nice to talk about something other than this little corner of the world for a change. I know I used the comparison first but do we have to drag the conservation from the Middle East to Ulster?
When I say Unionism I mean political Unionism has a siege mentality. Largely due to the feeling that are position in the Union is precarious.
There’s a deep set feeling among some Unionists that we will be driven into a UI against are will. This feeling was deepened during the troubles when the IRA tried to drive through a UI through violence. The scars of that conflict still linger and remember many of our politicians were formed by those events. Just as your views by your own acknowledgement were formed then also.
There is also a feeling, among some, that we are somehow on our own in the struggle to stay in the Union. Many Unionists distrust the Uk government and feel that given half a chance they would jettison us.
Funny enough I was talking to my dad about this. I never knew the troubles and my dad was a adult in the 70’s and 80’s. I asked him why did Unionists vote for the Ian Paisley as the things he was saying were very controversial and hateful. My dad explained that he felt that although many saw Paisley for what he was a,hate filled man, there was a general feeling that someone like him was needed because Unionists felt they would be sold up the river by Westminster.
Much of that siege mentality belongs to the older generations though. I don’t share your pessimism or hatred for NI and the state of cross community relations.
The NI I live in and experience everyday is a lovely place were people get on no matter what there religion or political persuasion is. I see very little hatred to our fellow countrymen and don’t have as gloomy outlook as many on here do.
I don’t feel the picture painted by many people on this blog about what life in NI is like is a accurate one.
These are all just my own musings and thoughts though and I don’t pretend that they are the gospel truths. Just my own rambling thoughts.
Scott I could respond to some of your very interesting points but all I want to say /have time to say is, the tone of your post is a model of courtesy and friendliness. Maith thú – Good for you.
A very honest answer from your Dad Scott.
I have total respect for that and understand completely where he is coming from.
It is a pity our politicians did not have the same honesty and integrity.
I love Ireland, every part of it Scott. I see NI as a straight jacket that needs to be removed and the intransigence of unionism as shackles around the ankles of economic growth and political maturity. I hate the political institutions and the whole political situation here, but not the people. I hate those who would even consider a return to violence but not those like your dad who has the courage to stand up for what he believes in no matter what.
Sinn Fein are maturing as a political entity in the republic but have a lot of baggage still in the north.
It is too early to say what is gong to happen to your union. A lot will be down to whether or not England can get the new trade deals it is working on with India, Australia and so on. The EU would not survive that if it did, and may instead accept major reforms which could see Britain back in but on different terms with the individual nations representing themselves independently or as a new blok of independent nations.
I think Ireland should be working together with Britain to get the best for these islands as a group, but I also believe that Ireland should do so as a single country within that group.
Thank you Jude
“They say 6 million Jews died in WW2 but yet figures clearly show no more than 1.5 million died but yet that figure of 6 million is still spun! ”
Goodness. What are these figures of which you speak?
Are you a holocaust revisionist?
“…Games, along with military adventures and royal fecundity, have remained the favoured way of keeping the minds and bodies of the punters occupied while they are being cheated and exploited…”
Well said, Mr McKenna.
So, I got to wondering were we were after a day of flegs, and Celtic fleggers.
The assertion that UEFA only take action against the Palestinian flag – rebutted.
The assertion that only 1.5 million rather than 6 million Jews were deliberately annihilated – rebutted.
The assertion that Israel faces no credible threat in the Middle East – rebutted.
The assertion that more Poles than Jews were murdered by the Nazis – rebutted.
The assertion that to use morally weighted language is to enter a bidding war in relation to the Holocaust – rebutted.
The assertion that people ignored the killing of others during the Holocaust – rebutted.
All in all, it’s a thread long on unsubstantiated assertions and short on facts.
That is a horrible and morbid conversation Peter.
It may well be, Jessica; but it is an accurate account of false information and relative language used against the Jewish people on this thread.
For that reason I thought it important to summarise the attitudes I have encountered and have had to reply to. I too find it horrible and morbid, and for that reason could not let it pass.