To quote David Dunseith once again: here, people hear what they want to hear, regardless of what you say.
I was on Nolan on BBC Radio Ulster/Raidio Uladh and the topic was the legacy of the past. As you’ll probably know, the Ballymurphy families were bitterly disappointed when they met the British Secretary of State /Proconsul yesterday. Their case wasn’t going to be funded by him, for sure
On the Nolan show, I agreed with those who said that the suffering of all families who have had loved ones killed in the conflict is equal. Whether you’re an RUC widow or a UDR widow or an IRA widow or a UDA widow – or any other relative or friend of the dead person – your pain is just as real.
So faced with the fact that there are so many people suffering pain – the Legacy Issue, as we now call it – can anything be done? I certainly think everyone should at least know how their loved one died. Some may want justice as well as truth.
I suggested that while there is no hierarchy of victims, there might be a hierarchy of aggressors. That is, it is more deplorable that a member of the ‘security’ forces – the RUC, British Army – should have killed someone than that a member of a paramilitary organization should have done so. That’s because we the taxpayers pay the RUC/British Army to protect us – that is or was their job. The fact that they killed some of the people they were supposed to protect should, I suggested, put them at the front of the queue for investigation.
It stands to sense. The civil rights movement of the 1960s finally broke down when the forces of law and order – those we pay to protect us – instead attacked the marchers. Public confidence in the police and then British army was lost. And some thirty years of civil conflict followed. Except we want more of the same, or except the British authorities release the necessary documents and tell the truth this time, we are setting ourselves up for more of the same. I don’t know how full the ranks of dissidents are, but certainly the more disdain with which families like the Ballymurphy families are treated, the more surely we’ll enter another cycle of violence. You can’t have the state kill people and then inform the relatives “Sorry, nothing to do with us”.
Needless to say, I was set upon and informed I was a joke. I was blinkered. I could see only one side of the equation. When I protested that I’d said the very opposite – I could see how all victims deserved the same respect – this was ignored.
There are people who, if you criticize in any way the British armed forces or the police, they shut down. Heard enough. You’re blinkered. A bigot. When I said we had to start looking at victims and their relatives somewhere, and I’d suggested looking at those killed by state forces, where would they start…Nothing. It’s as if I hadn’t spoken.
Maybe that should be emblazoned on our little state’s coat of arms: Dialogue of the Deaf.
quoting david dunseith,on topics like this an x r,u,c man.
True. But also an impeccably impartial broadcaster. I feel privileged to have known him.Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.
“There are people who, if you criticize in any way the British armed forces or the police, they shut down. Heard enough. You’re blinkered. A bigot”
The irony is Jude you can bet your last pretty penny that those who called you a bigot are maybe the most bigoted people around in our little failed statelet. I didn’t hear you on the Nolan show this morning, I was in Belfast City Centre doing some shopping and was in a café eating breakfast listening to Frank Mitchell (the owner of this particular café told me he cant stand Stephen Nolan).
“There are people who, if you criticize in any way the British armed forces or the police, they shut down”
Obviously these people are Unionists. The reality is Unionism always seen the British Army, the RUC, UDR, etc as “theirs”. They always stood behind the British Army regardless of what they did, whether here or abroad, just as long as they didn’t shoot dead or torture Unionists. Anyone else is OK. Like, for example, in 2013 when the Mau Mau people from Kenya won their court case for compensation for the brutal torture/murder/rape their people endured at the hands of the British Army, 11th July bonfires burnt the Kenyan flag in reference to this ruling that year. I suppose that was more “culture”…..
As I mentioned before many people reported Unionists (adult and child) cheering and being supportive of Bloody Sunday when it occurred. I’m sure they did the same when any Catholic was murdered by the British Army. It didn’t matter if they were innocent or not, the attitude was (and still is) “they didn’t get it for nothing”. Needless to say, its not surprising why this place erupted into violence, even many people worldwide could understand why Catholics resorted to civil rights protests or why republicans took up arms. We were/are living in an illegitimate state which was ruled over by deeply immoral people. Unfortunately these people still haven’t learnt any lessons from the past.
“I don’t know how full the ranks of dissidents are, but certainly the more disdain with which families like the Ballymurphy families are treated, the more surely we’ll enter another cycle of violence”
Yes, that’s the danger and its very understandable. It also reinforces how failed this state is. Its constantly on a knife edge. That’s why I and many others consider Irish Unity inevitable because this state simply doesn’t work. It cant limp along forever.
The current tactic by the British Government to prevent Justice/Truth is to underfund investigations and to delay them where ever possible. Everyone can see this is what they are trying to do and not just to cases involving Nationalists but Unionists too. The Ballymurphy Families should consider a protest in London and Dublin to raise awareness of what they are going through.
The Truth always comes out, I really believe that. But when it comes to our little failed sectarian statelet, the combined forces of Westminster and Unionism will do all in their power to prevent that, along with the help of the media. We just need to have the same courage those Men and Women had in the 1960’s, when they stood up against anti-Catholic sectarianism and discrimination and said: Enough is Enough. It is time for Nationalism/Republicanism to come together and fight (non violently) for what is right. There’s no need for violence but there does seem to be a case for a lot of protests.
I can’t help but agree, Jude . Most people do not listen to anything that might shake their own hard and fast ideas.It’s a if there’s a baffle right there , editing out unpalatable truths. It’s no different from the abuse Galileo was handed out when he dared mention that the earth was not the centre of the universe or when Darwin postulated that there was much evidence that we were not divine beings at all , but just another branch of the animal kingdom. People don’t like to hear stuff like that when it firstly confuses them and then shakes up their very belief systems.They’d rather not think about it at all, so they don’t.
On a localised scale , there was so much input into the security forces by the unionist community that they regarded them as their very own….and for the most part they were their very own .Fathers , sons , daughters , cousins , uncles aunts….these all made up the security forces for them.They just do not want to countenance that they did anything wrong. It’s a sad fact that some of them did, but it is the nature of things that the wagons will be circled and their own protected.
They simply don’t get it that they were the first line of defence as far as “Society’s Law” was concerned …and that if they broke that law it was a crime against the whole of society.That’s really what you have to contend with.Those protecting the laws have to be whiter than white. They are the difference between society tipping into anarchy or steering an even course ,so they have to be beyond reproach.They have to be morally upstanding and if they fall down on our payroll they should be the first to be reprimanded. They have a privileged position in that they are being paid by us to look after all our needs…and not just the unionist community’s needs ,so if they fall down on that score they should expect the utmost scrutiny.This has little to do with bigotry , but has everything to do with good sense.The army and the police force cannot simply kill its citizens while being paid by them.
I listened and heard that part of the show Jude and the same recalcitrant rhetoric churned out from the mouths of those who do not listen. Yes we all know that paramilitaries, on both sides, were responsible for more deaths than state forces. But I have to agree that a state is supposed to protect not assassinate its people. How many times has Britain been at the forefront of criticism of so called pariah states that have been responsible for exactly the same thing they have perpetrated here? The British establishment’s hypocrisy knows no bounds and continues to see themselves through rose-tinted glasses. They have a machinery that infiltrates the mindsets of those who do not want to hear the truth and it skillfully moulds a general apathy until it transforms into skillfully moulded apologists. No Jude, your starting point will never be accepted because there is no acceptance on their part.
The problem you have Jude is your reputation goes before you and you would never be regarded as being impartial and fair. You are the person who can win that argument.
Even though this is abuse I’ll put this one up, Robert. But I’m not sure it can last…
And a very decent reputation it is too Robert. You are falling foul of the very thing we have spoken of on this particular blog, you have not listened, nor, it seems to me, will you ever. I suppose I could say your reputation precedes you!
Where do you get this stuff , Robert.I know Jude can look after himself and he’s fair game on most things. He’ll argue the toss …. but this topic has very little to do with Jude’s partiality or fairness…even though I believe his arguments are usually couched in logic.Sure..he has his own point of view …he has his own political bent …as have we all. This has to do with something that is ,or was supposed to be “impartial and fair” ….something that simply has to be above politics or personal bias …and we all paid the wages for the pleasure of that “impartiality and Fairness” ,but found it wanting on occasion. That’s how you get a situation in which a community is attacked by policemen or soldiers…and several people are killed without going through any legal action. That’s an observation based on some facts whether or not you might be a nationalist…a unionist …or neither. What we are actually talking about here is the very fact that wrongful actions can be supported because of partiality.We deserve and indeed ….we all deserved better. None of that is Jude’s fault.
“The problem you have Jude is your reputation goes before you and you would never be regarded as being impartial and fair. You are the person who can win that argument”
Are you “impartial and fair” Robert? I have never seen one fair and impartial comment from you nor was I expecting such because your not impartial or fair. I cant speak for Jude but who said he has to be “impartial”? He is a nationalist, he doesn’t need to drop that in order to express his opinion or state a fact. He is definitely fair, to say he is unfair is ridiculous and I would like to see examples of when he was “unfair”. Every day he allows Unionists to have a voice on his blog, even though some of the comments typed are bigoted and blinkered. Try being a nationalist on Nelson McCauslands blog or a Loyalist facebook page and you’ll see what unfairness is. As for Jude’s “reputation”: no offence Robert but if Jude is being attacked by the likes of you then that can only be a good thing. He must be doing something right.
The reality is Robert all this is hypocritical from you. I’m not attacking you or being abusive but we both know you (and a lot of other Unionists) are not in the slightest interested in fairness or impartiality. Lets not beat about the bush, lets be open. Your just as interested in fairness as Unionist Stormont was. You didn’t address any of Judes points because you cant, so instead you attack the person stating the facts. But attack all you want, it wont make the truth go away…..
Maybe you and some other Unionists should try fairness and impartiality some time, Robert, it would be a welcome change….
Like Ciaran above I heard this this morning, the problem is historical in more than one respect.
Where you have one side which, historically, as well as contemporanously is told they’re always right because they control, the other side can neverbe right.
On Kingsmills you were right.
And so it continues –
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/16/british-troops-soldiers-condemned-drowning-iraqi-boy-forced-canal-invasion-judge-inquest-style-hearing
Four adults (fine upstanding British soldiers all) kill a child, and an MoD spokesman says –
“This was a grave incident for which we are extremely sorry. We are committed to investigating allegations of wrongdoing by UK forces and will use Sir George’s findings to learn lessons to help ensure nothing like this happens again.”
Until the next time, of course.
When the four soldiers are tried (in a British court, natch) they are acquitted – but that’s ok because a British judge condemns them and the MoD say sorry. Good old British justice, there. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.
You are a Nationalist Jude, like myself and thousands of others, presumably the BBC knew this. Were they expecting you to say something different? What was the point of you being allowed to say your piece? Maybe we should all just convert to unionism?
Impartial no – fair yes. Wasting your time – yes. As long as our colonial masters hold the ring no solution will be accepted. When 80% of the planters/settlers were living high of the hog they used to mutter about fighting the terrorists with their hands tied behind their back and what did they mean by that, I wonder? They said it often enough that those few who weren’t in the yeomanry (and some who were) took it on themselves to ‘help’ the ‘security forces’ deal with the problem as they had done in all the colonies across the world. As Robert says, your reputation has come before you. A taig and an educated taig at that and uppity to boot. Don’t waste your time on the deaf and blind.
Ciaran says we all know the paramilitaries killed more than the State forces.
The State and bigots think this is alright!!
” Our lads were not too bad” is the attitude.
The Brits still think we are only Paddies and dont really matter.
The greatest tragedy of war, is the Truth
That’s what I mean Jim, they hide behind this type of shit everyday. Britain paints a picture of benign and peaceful endeavour yet they stink like the shit they hide behind
Ciarán – ease up on the abuse, please…
Imagine the USA refusing to hold an inquest into the killing of an unarmed civilian by a police man on the basis that the night before a police man was shot dead by a gang member and that gang member had not been brought to justice.
This is the hub of unionism’ argument. Mrs A didn’t get justice so neither should Mrs B…it’s a completely nonsensical stand point.
Even as you were being berated as a Non-U by the Us on the Nolan Show this morning , Esteemed Blogmeister, down here in the Free Southern Stateen the same kind of U-rated berating was to be heard, simultaneously.
From the mouth of the Minister of Finance who berated Pearse Doherty for his predecessors in Sinn Fein having done their level best to destroy not one but two economies. While this is only half the number of Courts which the predecessors in the Minister’s own party actually did destroy (in 1923) nonetheless it was clear from the admiring tone of the Minister that he was enormously impressed.
And not just with himself, for once.
As this was an edited excerpt of his contribution to the (gulp) Dahl Budgetary Oversight Committee one is happy to report that the reference to the ‘two economies’ which SF strove manfully to dismantle turned out to be just a potpourri of the ills and ailments which the Provos were responsible for.
The complete alphabet which ran from A (for Alzheimers) to Z (for Zika) included on its scenic detour such various disasters as the Famine, the San Francisco Earthquake, the Krakatoa Eruption, Ebola, the Wall Street Crash, the Ethiopian Famine, the Flu Pandemic, and perhaps, the deadliest of all, (gasp) the Derivatives Bubble.
To hear that alphabet of shame delivered in the uniquely smug rumble of Michael Noonan (for it is he !) was truly a treat for Saorstat ears.
As he had graduated in the Arts it hit the commentariat somewhat on its blindside when he was appointed Minister of Finance.
-The sums of his Arts will not be up to the jab !
(Jab being the received Noonan pronoonciation of job).
The back passage of time, happily , has shown the inaccuracy of this judgement. As the Budget is the. erm, summit of the Minister of Finance’s year Michael Noonan’s inner budgerigar has enabled him to pull off a wheeze and a half. For he is eminently equipped to parrot the figures supplied to him by his bureaucratic acolytes in such a calculated way that he invariably comes across as someone who actually (gulp) knows his Arrears from his Liabilities.
To conclude, with a Limerick for this TD from the Treaty Tone City. Focused on his Southern appreciation of a Nine-county Ulster Saint with a Scottish dimension. And even if his appreciation is diluted with an elixir of ambiguity, nonetheless, credit where debit is due.
THE PATRON SAINT OF MISPRONUNCIATIONS
He truly has a thing about St. Eunan
Does the F. Minister Michael Noonan
Trade Eunans: driftwood
Eunanists : just as good
As cooling one’s bunions in Ballybunion.
“I suggested that while there is no hierarchy of victims, there might be a hierarchy of aggressors. That is, it is more deplorable that a member of the ‘security’ forces – the RUC, British Army – should have killed someone than that a member of a paramilitary organization should have done so.”
What an appalling thing to say. Members of illegal terror gangs are never allowed to kill, whereas society vests in our security forces the rightto use reasonable force, including killing if necessary, to.protect life. To.imply that it was more deplorable for the security forces, in prptection of life, to kill the attackers at Loughgall, for example, than it was for the attackers to launch the murderous attack, is a shocking perversion of conventional morality.
“That’s because we the taxpayers pay the RUC/British Army to protect us – that is or was their job. The fact that they killed some of the people they were supposed to protect should, I suggested, put them at the front of the queue for investigation.”
If you’re referring to unlawful killings by the security forces then they are, of course, to be deplored.
I’d only say this in reply, MT.
In acknowledging the role of the security forces to protect, and in demanding a higher level of morality from them, it is then impossible to claim that the IRA or UVF were anything other than terrorist gangs.
Beyond that, unlawful killings by the security forces are to be deplored, and should be investigated; as should all terrorist atrocities (but that horse has bolted).
I had another thought about this on my way up the road this AM, am I the only one who can discern a difference in approach to brit state murders committed here, by their thinking, a part of their country, and one must presume, peopled by their subject’s, and their approach to murders, by their forces, in Iraq and Afghanistan?
It has long struck me, their broadcasters, BBC in particular, give substantially more coverage to murders ‘abroad’ than murders at ‘home’.
Donaldson’s murder happened when Sinn Fein were part of the executive. IF Gerry (I was never in the IRA) Adams did order that killing, then it was state sanctioned murder, no less. Should this allegation then be investigated in the top tier of investigation for aggressors you outline above?
Let’s see who has his listening ears on!
I think all violent deaths, particularly where relatives request it, should be fully investigated. At the top of the queue, with not a moment’s hesitation, I would put those killings involving the ‘security forces’. Since we pay these people to protect us, and since a state where the guardians of the law aren’t trusted is on the path to chaos, their contribution to illegal killings should be investigated first.