Phew. Whatever disasters in the shape of Donald Trump may be heading the world’s way, there is one consolation: contentious parades here have been attended to. After several years and wagon-loads of expense, the Ardoyne marching dispute has been resolved. We can now place Ardoyne on the shelf marked ‘Sorted’, alongside the other divisive issues like Garvaghy Road and the Tunnel and the various Apprentice Boys parades in Derry.
Or is that being a wee bit starry-eyed? The Ardoyne dispute has been resolved with a one-last-time march by the Orange Order. From now on, they’ll march only with the consent of the residents. The question now must be, will the Orange Order ask to get marching next year and will the residents give their consent? And if residents do grant permission, will they be seen as submissive and subservient? If they don’t grant permission, will they be seen as begrudging and stuck in the past? Tough questions. But maybe they won’t arise. Maybe the Orange Order will accept that from now on, an Ardoyne march is out.
While most hope the Ardoyne solution will be a lasting one, there are those who are disgusted by the fact that the Orangemen were allowed to march last Saturday, no matter how “dignified” (the BBC’s word, not mine) the march was.
Meanwhile the agreement on Ardoyne stands in sharp contrast with the Orange Order’s 18-year-old desire to march along the Garvaghy Road. There, the Orange Order still wants to march, and has shown some willingness to talk to the residents. In fact, it attempted to do so two years ago. Significantly, District Master Darryl Hewitt has said that in any such talks “Every thing is on the table” – although that said, their 18-year-old parade must be completed.
Is Mr Hewitt talking sense? Or is there as much chance of Orange feet on the Garvaghy Road as there is of a cat winning the 100 metres breast stroke in the next Olympic Games?
I’m not privy to what’s going on in Portadown’s Orange Order, but it sounds as if they’d settle for the one-last-time solution that has appeared to work in Ardoyne. Equally, it seems pretty clear that Portadown nationalists will not accept a deal that involves even a single march for the Orangemen.
Clearly the right to march in Ardoyne and on the Garvaghy Road is something Orangemen take very seriously. In fact, all 2,000+ marches, which tie up traffic and police resources here every year, are taken very seriously by the Order. There have been suggestions that it’d be cheaper to build them a special stadium and let them hold their marches there, within the stadium’s confines. That, or adapt Windsor Park.
I don’t think this idea has been put to the Orange Order, but I’m confident that if it were, they would decline on the grounds that marching the roads is part of their cultural heritage. A man of my acquaintance suggested a vast investment in treadmills, which would allow the Order to remain in one place and at the same time see how many miles they’d marched. There might even be a competitive element added, with different Lodges competing for the fastest time over a given distance…But hey, let’s stop dreaming, Virginia – the Order won’t be buying that either.
Like most people, I’m glad to see the Ardoyne dispute resolved, and pray that it stays that way. I’m also glad that the various disputed marches in Derry have been resolved amicably, although I’ve never quite had the manner of their resolution explained to me.
While the resolution of the Ardoyne dispute and the Garvaghy Road dispute and the disputes over Derry marches are welcome, it’s notable that there are differences in how they’ve been resolved. In Derry and Ardoyne, compromise seems to have been the watchword; in Portadown, the resolution has come from a refusal to allow Orangemen to march along the Garvaghy Road.
Few commentators, unfortunately, drill down another layer and ask if the Apprentice Boys or the Orange Order are a desirable part of our society. With their drum-thumping annual reminders of how the ancestors of one side in our society stuffed the ancestors of the other side, it’s hard to see how these organisations help a society still limping out of conflict, its wounds running and raw.
Maybe there’s a test that should be applied to all marches here. Not how acceptable are they to the area in which they take place, but how will they enhance reconciliation in a fragile society? If positive outcomes can be pointed to, then they should be allowed march, regardless of residents. If division rather than reconciliation are central to such marches, they should be refused permission to march anywhere.
If little William gets a Nazi flag and announces he’s going to carry it to school every day, you don’t solve the problem by letting him carry it on Fridays only.
Phew! I was worried we might have a whole article on the Orange Order without a mention of the Nazis, but thankfully we got it squeezed in somehow at the end.
The simple point about Orange marches is there is no political will to question their existence in our society.
Certainly not from any Unionist party and apparently not from SF or the SDLP either.
That is the reality.
Tackling contentious parades is a slow and tedious process often with not entirely satisfactory outcomes, but it seems to be the only way for now.
A resolution of some sort in Ardoyne must surely be good news even if there are questions still to be answered in future years.
We might wish there was no such thing as the Orange Order, but there they are and no-one is going to ban them, so lets try and be realistic.
Or to bring it to a more animal level. A child abuser promises that if he/she is allowed to do it just one more time then he/she will never do it again.
On a morning when the Western Media (English Language) is uniformly marching to the sound of Trump, Trump, Trump, Esteemed Blogmeister, you are to be commended for (typically) showing an independent streak on the Information Highway.
By concentrating on the Tramp, Tramp, Tramp.
It would appear as if the first T-3 is as much on the way out as the second T-3, though one would be both slothful and loath to put one’s penthouse condo on same: 90 minutes is a long time in Presidential Politics in the Land of Aunt Samantha.
At first glance, Trump, Trump, Trump and Tramp, Tramp, Tramp have z for zilch in common. Bulwarked by the fact that the first T-3 is to do with The Big Apple while the second T-3 is intertwined 4 with The Big Orange, two fruits which ought never be compared, according to the Wisdom of the Ancients.
It would be every bit as deplorable to drop a bunch of oranges into a basket of apples, and vice versa.
Nonetheless, there is the New York connection, for starters. Both the first T-3 and the second T-3 have monuments erected in their honour, though on a different scale. There is, for example, Trump Tower and then there is in nearby Central Park: a statue to Victor Herbert.
Fact-check, to coin a neo-cliché:
The Dublin-born Victor Herbert , it was, who composed the music to the hit toon ‘Tramp, Tramp, Tramp’ in 1910 for the Broadway musical which might have had The Donald in mind : ‘Naughty Marietta’.
Your older readers, EB, will recall the song being sung by Nelson Eddy (Nelson of the ever-ready Soundbite with an I is no relation, incidentally) and for the younger cohort whose ears were educated by the wireless sounds of the Fabulous Fifties,.
This was a Golden Era for the ear when music still oozed melody, and it was a head to head between Gordon McCrea and Mario Lanza:
Go, Gordon:
-Tramp, tramp, tramp along the highway
Tramp, tramp, tramp the road is free.
Your go, Mario:
-Tramp, tramp, tramp now clear the roadway
Tramp, tramp, tramp the world is free.
Fact check: the lyricists were Rida Johnson Young and Gus Kahn.
If the title of the Broadway musical (see above) seemed like a portent for The Donald then these lines tale a turn for the thirst and even begin to (gulp) sound like a harbinger (a daarlin’ word, Joxer) of the Twadellerati:
-We’re planters and Cannucks
Virginians and Kentucks.
(The latter K-word may well refer to the finger-lickin bill o’fare favourted by the Tramps of Twaddellonia)
In the immortal catchphrase of the Cookstown Lad, Jimmy Cricket:
-There’s more (1) !
-We’ve ranged o’er the North in the winter
We’ve answered the call of the wild.
-There’s more (2) !
-We’ve waded in blood to the knee
We’ve laughed at all dangers
We’re known as the Rangers
All good soldiers and fighters are we.
Contrary to widespread belief, the popular tune ‘Penny Arcade’ did not feature in ‘Naughty Marietta’ – that would be truly taking the B. Though, the confusion is comprehensible in the context of the Big Orange : it was the Big O who did score a hit with that contagious song fit for an orchestral pit itself.
Mind you, Belfast is not the only Eastcoast City on the Me Eyeland of Ireland which has had problems with Marching Bands.
Only the other week, Dublin City Councillor Mannix Flynn was all over the radio studios of DOBlin like a skin rash from Rush bellyaching about a marching band which is synonymous with Crow Park (so called because of its less than melodic rendering of the National Tantrum) :
-The Artane Boyz Band.
Or, rather,
-The Artane Band.
The reason for the semantic antics of Mannix F. was to do with his spell of incarceration in the hell of an Industrial School at Letterfrack in the Wild West of Connemara. Where he suffered, by all accounts, especially his own, the equivalent of human fracking, peculiar, since time began, to the Christian Brothers.
He no longer wanted the Artane Band to be called the Artane Band because it reminded him (shudder) of his tough times as a teenager. Btw, he later served time for arson (fact).
The reason Mannix Flynn was given the Freedom of the Microphone in Medialand-sur-Liffey on the run up to the GAA All-Ireland Bogball Final was, possibly, on account of the toxic mix of GAA and Christian Bros.
In other words, the Southern echo of the Orange Order. Hence, the absence (near total) of any finger wagging at the Foot Fall of the Fife and Drummers from the Free Southern Stateen monominded media. Too busy dealing with our own brand of Big Time Bigotry to do with the Bogball.
.
Just as well, with their little Latin and less Leprechaun, the same Hawk-eye media did not look too closely at the crest on the green and red ganseys of the Mayo team:
-Criost Linn.
Now, there’s a slow burner. Conscientious objectors to contentious marches around before GAA games, please note.
–
–
Gio is right there is certainly not the political will in political unionism to question the ethical existence of the Orange Order or it’s antiquated belief systems.
Most Orangemen would not even accept that some of the beliefs and actions which they take because of their membership of the Order are bigoted.
If they find that difficult to accept how are they ever to accept that their father, grandfather and perhaps great grandfather were bigots too and come to acknowledge that the Orange Order has caused deep hurt to their fellow countrymen and women and caused a deep seated sense of division and unfairness that still pervades in our society today.
” After several years and wagon-loads of expense, the Ardoyne marching dispute has been resolved”
GARC and the Ardoyne residents may disagree with you there Jude. According to GARC they still want the evening and morning parades banned and I support them in that. GARC has been painted as the bad guys recently, despite the fact there’s an openly sectarian, protestant fundamentalist organisation demanding for sectarian reasons to march by a Catholic area, but that’s described as “culture”. Unfortunately some republicans (I’m using that term more and more loosely for them as time goes by) were even eager to portray the Orange Order in a good light on that day, despite claims they played the Famine Song when they reached a certain point. 99% of the times these claims tend to be true.
“And if residents do grant permission, will they be seen as submissive and subservient? If they don’t grant permission, will they be seen as begrudging and stuck in the past? ”
The Orange Order will certainly see them as submissive, which is the reason why they choose and demand to march by Catholic areas, to give the aura they are, as one senior Orange man put it: “Master”. Could you honestly describe a people as “begrudging and stuck in the past” for refusing to let their community by harassed by bands and orange men who ARE begrudging and stuck in the past?…..
“Or is there as much chance of Orange feet on the Garvaghy Road as there is of a cat winning the 100 metres breast stroke in the next Olympic Games?”
I spoke to some people online who live on Garvaghy Road and all of them said “over our dead bodies” when I mentioned the possibility of the Orange men marching at Drumcree, even for a final march. Indeed I couldn’t blame them. What those residents went through was horrific and if there was any respect for the victims who were murdered by the supporters of the Orange men then all decent people would oppose even a final orange march at Drumcree. You can bet your house if there was a final march at Drumcree it would be full of parade commission violations and a loud chorus of the Famine Song would ring out, even it would be the final parade. Indeed, Drumcree taught the Orange Order a lesson, a lesson that needed taught. Its important for progress that lesson isn’t washed away, even for a final parade. If the shinners in CARA gave permission for a return parade at any time in the future at Ardoyne, all it will do is appease sectarian bigots and in the long run lead to Ardoyne residents pushing CARA out. As commentator Chris Donnelly said about Ardoyne: “That has to be the final return parade, that’s the resolution”. Donnelly is no supporter of GARC, btw.
“That, or adapt Windsor Park.”
Well we know one thing for sure, if there’s anymore “Lap of Legends” at Windsor Park, those in charge will make sure only Unionist minded individuals are invited, as Michael McKillop/Jason Smyth found…..http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37605083
“Few commentators, unfortunately, drill down another layer and ask if the Apprentice Boys or the Orange Order are a desirable part of our society”
The media here deliberately turn a blind eye to the whole reason the Orange Order exists and to the actions of the Orange men and their supporters. The equivalence would be CNN and the American media portraying the KKK as a cultural organisation but most of the American public/society has long disowned any sign of bigotry and hatred, thankfully. Will the Orange Order ever progress and become anti-sectarian? I wouldn’t bet on it, personally. Even to this day, as SpotlightNI revealed last year, they have a fund, the “Ulster Land Fund”, which sole purpose is to buy land to keep it from falling into Catholic hands. That was exposed in 2015, not 1915. It has the full backing by political Unionism, of course.
Some people may think I’m taking a harsh stance, I’m not, I’m taking the right one. Its not unreasonable to say a sectarian, anti-Catholic organisation has no right to march by Catholic areas and no tolerance should be shown to them. If any racist loyalist group like Combat 18 (Loyalist band “Pride of Ardoyne” has members who are literally Nazis and are in Combat 18) demanded to march down a street in South Belfast where immigrant workers live it would be rightly banned, the PSNI would stop it without consideration, why don’t they do this here with the Orange Order? Well as George Orwell said: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others”.
Unfortunately some Catholics/Nationalists are either stupid or submissive and don’t realize they’re playing to the inequality agenda pursued by Unionism, they think “tolerance” is right in every sense. Its not. Unfortunately for Unionism, these nationalists are a minority.
Ryan,
“but most of the American public/society has long disowned any sign of bigotry and hatred, thankfully. ”
No. They really haven’t. It is far worse here in the states than NI. In fact the police here are more like a blend of the b-specials & UDR pre-troubles. This country is a rancid, racist shitehole that Unionism of the 1922-1969 variety would be eminently jealous.
Well gen. I have to take exception with your conclusions. Yes there is much to abhor and yes there remain vigorous strains of bigotry and racism throughout American society and many of its police departments but you are painting an entire people with the same brush . ALL police too.
Which is rediculous.
At least the Americans recognize there are issues and confront them headon , offering solutions . Not something you will ever see from the OO .
When was the last time you were the subject of a baton charge by masked police accompanied by vicious , barking Alsatian dogs for the offense of standing watching an orange march?
100%? Of course not. That is patently ridiculous.
Just the 45% that support Trump, for starters. Various police departments in California just murdered 4 unarmed minorities, in 4 separate shootings in 5 days. San Francisco and Oakland police departments are riddled with racists as the recent years investigations have proven. Prince George’s county, MD. Milwaukee, WI. LA Ramparts scandal(s). Sheriff Arpaio.
Look at the Guardians website tracking police involved shootings and normalise them to NI.
Look at police dealing with protestors in Charlotte, Ferguson, OWS. The Standing Rock Sioux tribe protest has videos of the dogs you requested.
I still back my Marching Stadium idea . Jude. You have to envision a future of traffic-clogged roads…bumper to bumper all the time …traffic crawling along and four cars at every home . A citizenry so fat and near-immobile that they can barely walk and drive everywhere from the door to the door.. Where would there be even space for marchers to march and walker to walk?Never mind the politics and the community relations . , nobody… …businesses, , people going about their days quickly ,will have any thought or patience for a bunch of oddly dressed men who want to take over the roads thousands of times every year .It’s bad enough the roads being ceaselessly dug up .i know of one man who had to close down his successful car-wash business recently because roadworks screwed up his customers getting to him…He literally moved away to another town before his family starved.No …….best scenario is a self-sustaining marching stadium which would be run like any other concert or sports venue. …self-contained, insured and no hassle for anyone. if the enthusiasm for marching continues into the 21st century something like that is inevitable.This isn’t 1906 anymore. and people generally haven’t time to think about such nonsense….
Paddy, I think you can forget about the stadium idea.
I remember, some years ago at the time of one of the Ormeau Road contentious marches, an Orangeman was asked why they don’t just parade in their own area.
He answered: ‘Sure there’s no point in that’!
So unless they’re being deliberately objectionable they wouldn’t bother marching.
Oh, well; but long before we got the the Nazis, the article had already succeeded in demonstrating how little our tribes know of one another.
Some examples:
“And if residents do grant permission, will they be seen as submissive and subservient?”
If they grant permission, then by definition we cannot assume subservience.
“If they don’t grant permission, will they be seen as begrudging and stuck in the past?”
Again, why so, if permission is their’s to grant?
“Maybe the Orange Order will accept that from now on, an Ardoyne march is out.”
But, again, why would they if they can seek permission?
“There have been suggestions that it’d be cheaper to build them a special stadium and let them hold their marches there, within the stadium’s confines. That, or adapt Windsor Park.”
This has been mentioned on this site before (although to Jude’s credit he recognises the problem); however, the general suggestion demonstrates, on the part of those who make it, a complete lack of understanding of the organisation. ‘Marches’ are not ‘events’ like sporting occasions.
“A man of my acquaintance suggested a vast investment in treadmills, which would allow the Order to remain in one place and at the same time see how many miles they’d marched. There might even be a competitive element added, with different Lodges competing for the fastest time over a given distance”
Really? I can’t imagine this was a well informed suggestion.
“in Portadown, the resolution has come from a refusal to allow Orangemen to march along the Garvaghy Road.”
Wouldn’t ‘resolution’ suggest that there was agreement? Refusal does not equate to resolution.
“With their drum-thumping annual reminders of how the ancestors of one side in our society stuffed the ancestors of the other side, it’s hard to see how these organisations help a society still limping out of conflict, its wounds running and raw.”
Poor argument. All (and if not all, then practically all) National Celebrations celebrate some kind of ‘victory’. Even St. Patrick’s Day in our secular society is now mostly culture stained with politics.
“Not how acceptable are they to the area in which they take place, but how will they enhance reconciliation in a fragile society?”
If that test is applied, then we should all brace ourselves for a ‘bonfire of cultures’.
“If little William gets a Nazi flag and announces he’s going to carry it to school every day, you don’t solve the problem by letting him carry it on Fridays only.”
And the reference to the Nazi’s succeeds only is disrespecting all those murdered under Hitler.
As to my own view, if the AOH wish to parade through Coleraine, Ballymena or Portadown on 15th August, I have no problem with that.
I find myself breaking a fresh agreement with myself not to respond to comments, PF. Actually I just read the last two paragraphs (it’s quicker) and they are gob-smacking in their inaccuracy. (i) Referring to “the Nazi’s” (sic) means I’m disrespecting all Hitler’s victims. Really? If you don’t see how daft that statement is, I suggest you find a quiet place and lie down. (ii) I’ve no doubt you’re a reasonable man/woman and would permit the AOH to march through your living-room if necessary. The point is, other people in Coleraine, Ballymena and/or Portadown would have a seizure at the very thought. And you know that. At least, I hope you know it…
Jude
Good evening.
(sic) if you must – you, as much as anyone else, will know the danger of a typo – or was it predictive text? I haven’t a clue, and I don’t care – but point it out if you must.
As to my last two paragraphs, disagree with my opinions, by all means, but all you have is a disagreement, not an inaccuracy.
But let’s delve into the detail:
“(i) Referring to “the Nazi’s” (sic) means I’m disrespecting all Hitler’s victims. Really?”
Yes, really. You chose to link the Nazis to Orange parades (and you were, otherwise you wouldn’t have dropped it in at the end. The piece worked perfectly well without it.) – that was your choice, you didn’t have to do it. Having done it, however, having used the Nazi reference in a loose and casual way to connect to an altogether unrelated organisation, then step up and defend your use of it rather than calling me names. I’d then, at least, have more respect for you rhetoric. As it is, and without that, the Nazi reference is not only disrespectful to Holocaust victims, it’s impotent.
“(ii) I’ve no doubt you’re a reasonable man/woman and would permit the AOH to march through your living-room if necessary.|”
Reasonable? Moi? I’m a Unionist, remember.
“The point is, other people in Coleraine, Ballymena and/or Portadown would have a seizure at the very thought.”
Other people? It would be interesting if you cared to put a % on the unreasonableness of the good people of those towns.
But, of course, arguing that “other” citizens of those towns might not be reasonable in refusing an AOH march, does rather imply that “others”, in refusing OO parades are being… I’ll let “other” readers apply the relevant logic to the comparison.
As for reading the last two paragraphs. I must admit to a similar guilt at times myself – but it’s a pity how much else we miss. And I did say other things – some of them were even accurate.
And, Jude, stop making agreements with yourself – everyone here loves it when you respond to them!
Perhaps from now on I’ll write in single paragraphs!
I agree with PF about the reference to Nazis.
It is insulting to the vast majority of Orangemen who practice their traditions without doing harm to anyone, beyond a bit of a traffic jam getting through The Moy or wherever it is.
But it is also complete hyperbole as a description of what is happening.
If you compare a group of elderly farmers ambling along a country road to the Nazis who killed millions, what language have you left to describe really horrendous acts?
If the Orange Order is the equivalent of the worst mass murderers in modern history how can we begin to describe those guilty of anything worse than parading where they are not welcome?
Yes certain Lodges have been involved in very unpleasant events and should have been disciplined by the organisation as well as the law.
Yes the deaths of the Quinn children are laid at the door of the OO by some,and they may well be responsible at least in part.
Yes the organisation badly needs reformed, or even better should wither away and die.
None of that is remotely akin to what the Nazis did, and such language is just hysteria.
Oh spare me the purer-than-pure PC people, God – anything but that. Don’t you recognise a metaphor when you see one? A parallel? No , I don’t think the OO are Nazis (or Nazi’s), any more than I think little Jimmy would be a Nazi if he took the flag to school. But it would still be distasteful and stupid to allow him to take it. Likewise the one-last-time notion with the OO. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong and shouldn’t happen even once. If it’s right, it’s right and should happen at will. Sin é. And pleeeeeease, gio ….You know what I want/don’t want…
“Don’t you recognise a metaphor when you see one?”
Emm…
Remind me how that works? Oh, yes.
One thing is compared with another without using the word ‘like’ or ‘as’.
Now children, using your imagination complete this sentence: ‘The sun is a _______ in the sky.’ And I’d appreciate words which seek to capture the essence of the sun, at least as you perceive it.
“The sun is a fiery beast, Miss.” Good boy, Jimmy (sorry, William; I keep getting you two mixed up – you’re so alike), that’s the kind of thing I’m thinking of. “Fiery beast”. Doesn’t that catch the ferocity, heat and ire of the thing?
And now to today’s citizenship lesson, metaphors at the ready: The Orange Order is a ________ , and Orangemen are _______ . (But don’t use the word ‘Nazi’, or especially anything belonging to them, cause then you’d need an apostrophe, and we’re *doing* punctuation another day.)
And remember, boys and girls (not boy’s and girl’s or even boys’ and girls’ for that matter) this doesn’t mean that the OO *are* Nazis, it just means that when we want to describe them using a metaphor…
Aren’t metaphors powerful things? Borrowing the characteristics of one, whatever, and associating them with another, whatever – heady stuff!
As for “parallels, have any particular similarities or equivalences in mind?
“And, William, please put that flag back into your schoolbag; we’re studying WW2 on Fridays this term, and today is only Monday.”
“Don’t you recognise a metaphor when you see one? A parallel? No , I don’t think the OO are Nazis (or Nazi’s), any more than I think little Jimmy would be a Nazi if he took the flag to school. But it would still be distasteful and stupid to allow him to take it. Likewise the one-last-time notion with the OO. If it’s wrong, it’s wrong and shouldn’t happen even once. If it’s right, it’s right and should happen at will.'”
If I understand what you’re saying it’s that if an Orange parade past Ardoyne shops is unacceptable, then such a parade should be unacceptable anywhere. In other words the context is irrelevant. And on the other hand you concede the converse of this, namely if Orange parades are acceptable.on the Shankill then they are acceptable anywhere. They’re either acceptable or they’re not.
While this is a major departure from the recent and current discourse I do have some.sympathy with the argument because – as you’ve said in your main piece – it forces is to critically examine whether or not the Orange Order per se is acceptable.
Now we get to a philosophical crossroads. A liberal position is that people are entitled to organise themselves and parade and whatever as they wish unless there are very particular reasons why not. This is what our human rights lawn is based on. An authoritarian position would be that people must seek.permission. first. A question of whether the balance of power lies with individual people on with a higher authority.
Assuming you taken the view that the Orange Order per se is unacceptable, on what do you base this? What criteria would you apply for an organisation to exist and express itself publicly that is such that the Orange Order do not qualify?
Jude
“Oh spare me the purer-than-pure PC people, God – anything but that.”
(Since that is the level of debate!)
Spare me the lazy arrogant people who label things ‘PC’ when it is just a matter of trying to respect other people
The sort of attitude more often found in the Daily Mail.
And yours in Dublin 4. I think it’s a very sensible level of debate to point out that people who run off with a word between their teeth crying ‘The sky is falling!’ are not really engaging with what is said. And to think I once believed you were an intelligent person, gio…You disappoint me.
Come off it Jude.
If you start labelling people purer than pure and PC then the conversation quickly deteriorates. Now you are questioning my intelligence. Not very nice.
I never said the sky is falling or anything remotely like it.
But you know that.
Jude, does that include people who only read the last two paragraphs of a comment?
The wider point, as you admit yourself, is not that you used a ‘word’ that we all could “run off with”, the point is that you constructed a metaphor – it was that to which we made a response.
Oh Jude,
you know now that Unionists don’t seek a genuine debate (they don’t have a leg to stand on) so they seek to take umbrage and troll you into wasting your time. Brer Rabbit & the tar baby. Best thing to do is nod, smile, ignore them and wait for the border poll to stick it to them.
I see Gio, you have progressed now to being an apologist for the orange order. Again it’s what you don’t say that speaks volumes. Lest we forget.
wolfie
Good man. The list of things I did not say grows ever longer.
Am I an apologist for the Orange Order?
I am not sure how but I am very sure you will not tell me.
I did say they should not be talked about in the same breath as the Nazis though and I stand by that.
It’s a bit like comparing the Boys Brigade to …I dunno..say a paramilitary group.
Ok that’s a bit too silly but you get the idea.
“I am not sure how but I am very sure you will not tell me.”
There’s no point explaining to a unionist, masquerading as a letsgetalongerist, on here. After all their agenda is clear.
wolfie
Come on now. Jude has taken the pre-moderation off so we have to up our game.
Maybe you could answer one question though.
What could I possibly have to gain as an anonymous commenter by pretending to be a letsgetalongerist? It makes no sense.
The OO are a hate filled bigoted organization who, in any other country, would be banned, fact!
“The OO are a hate filled bigoted organisation …”
Now, Gearoid, metaphors, please. That’s a statement, and we’re covering statements later in the week, after we do punctuation.
Gio,
If I were you, I’d ignore the insults cast in your direction. Never mind metaphors, some contributors seemed to miss that you said, “Yes the organisation badly needs reformed, or even better should wither away and die.”
But you know what? I admire your position – you’re obviously no fan of the Order, and there are aspects of it I don’t like either, but you create room for conversation. And that’s always a help.
PF
Thanks.
I think people tend to see what they want to see.
As an aside sometimes the way people converse is as interesting as what they actually say.
You are right I am not a fan of the OO but equally I am not in favour of them being banned.
More importantly there is no political will to attempt such a thing. Not just from Unionists, as I have never seen any intent in any SF manifesto to ban the Orange Order.
So in the real world we should be talking about how to resolve the problems caused by parades (and the answer won’t be paddys wondrous stadium!).
“The OO are a hate filled bigoted organization who, in any other country, would be banned, fact!”
Since they’re not banned in any other country that’s clearly not a fact.
“I don’t think the Orange Order are Nazis”-Jude Collins
They should really put that on one of their banners! Perhaps with a picture of the man himself,with a wee speech bubble.
Anyway only joking Jude.
Don’t respond. I know you want me to leave you alone and I am trying.
It seems to me that few have any issue with a group of gentlemen walking to a church service accompanied by a band concentrating on playing moderate music.
Its when the march is preceded by a large number of known paramilitaries that residents become angered. It’s when the the march contains kick the pope bands playing offensive music, pounding on lambeg drums , crarrying banners glorifying murderers and with the band members shouting offensive language at residents that the locals become angered.
It’s when bands breach parade commission restrictions by blasting loud music as they go past local churches with the sole purpose of interrupting services that people become angered.
It’s when the return marches are populated by nasty, offensive, arrogant, bellicose inebriated individuals spoiling for a fight that onlookers become angered.
It’s these bigoted, sectarian , supremacist marches that are the cause of all the problems.
If the LOL would own up and admit that many such offensive parades continue to exist and if they would assume responsibility for cleaning these disgraceful displays up then this monstrosity of the marching season would disappear.
But it’s all about keeping the croppies in their place and reminding them of who’s boss.
It’s really as simple as that.
“It seems to me that few have any issue with a group of gentlemen walking to a church service accompanied by a band concentrating on playing moderate music.”
It only takes a few, though, and you’ve immediately got a ‘contentious parade’.
“Its when the march is preceded by a large number of known paramilitaries that residents become angered. It’s when the the march contains kick the pope bands playing offensive music, pounding on lambeg drums , crarrying banners glorifying murderers and with the band members shouting offensive language at residents that the locals become angered.”
Yet when these elements are removed, ‘-residents’ still object, so the objection is clearly not merely about behaviour but more profoundly about the organisation itself.
“It’s these bigoted, sectarian , supremacist marches that are the cause of all the problems.”
I think that is rather a simplistic view. The problems have only really arisen since the ‘residents’ groups’ were engineered. Ardoyne passed peacefully before CARA and GARC.
“If the LOL would own up and admit that many such offensive parades continue to exist and if they would assume responsibility for cleaning these disgraceful displays up then this monstrosity of the marching season would disappear.”
I agree that they should, in particular ban pro-terror lodges and bands. But I fear that even if they did it wouldn’t stop the campaign against them.
Besides what Gearoid said, the Orange Order per se is unacceptable because it piggy-backs on unionist parties to acquire and mis-use political power.
It seems the Nazi reference has caused the baby to be thrown out with the bath water again. Godwin’s law prevails once more. Would it not be more accurate to compare the OO NI to the Order of America. Sadly the similarities are all too real and thankfully the latter have started to fade away, forced into near oblivion by weight of public decency. We have a bit to go in Norneverland.
That’s the Orange Order of America.
There was ( maybe still is) a sign outside a place where a band prctices on the Newtonards Road that says IF YOU LIKE OUR MUSIC WE’LL PLAY IT LOUD. IF YOU DONT LIKE OUR MUSIC WE’LL PLAY IT LOUDER
Now this band can march theselves quite easily up to St Matthews where they routinely breach determinations by playing loud music and will I suppose play it louder if there are sufficient complaints.
I’ve heard that some of the bands arrive by coach . They disembark a short distance before the chapel, march past it blasting banned tunes then reboard the vehicle to take them to their destination.
Need I say more?