A letter sent to the IRISH POST
Irishmen in the British Forces in the First World War were fulfilling the august destiny prophesied for Irish males under Home Rule by John Redmond in a speech he made to a British audience in London on St.Patrick’s Day 1913 which seems to have escaped the notice of historians.
“We will, under Home Rule, devote our attention to education, reform of the poor law, and questions of that kind which are purely domestic, which are, if you
like, hum-drum Irish questions, and the only way in which we will attempt to interfere in any Imperial question will be by our representatives on the floor of the Imperial Parliament in Westminster doing everything in our power to increase the glory of what will then be our Empire at last; and by sending in support of the Empire the strong arms and brave hearts of Irish soldiers and Irish sailors, to maintain the traditions of Irish valour in every part of the world. That is our ambition.”
So Irishmen were to be to the fore in bearing the White Man’s Burden in the lands of darkskinned people, and to be cannon-fodder in struggles of the greater powers.
As for Redmond’s ambition for Irish women, he made that clear in an interview with C.P.Scott of the Manchester Guardian on 20th January 1913 –
“As a young man 30 years ago, when he first entered Parliament he had been in favour of women’s suffrage and had given votes for it. Then for a period he abstained. Finally about 4 years ago he began to vote against it. Ireland on the whole women’s question was about 50 years behind England. In England the demand for the franchise had arisen through the great advance in women’s education and into all kinds of public positions and activities. In Ireland nothing of the kind had happened, and there was no demand for the franchise except to a small extent in some of the great cities. Women took
no part in elections as they did here, though there was nothing in the Catholic religion which prohibited the enfranchisement of women, the whole attitude of mind inculcated by it – that of reserve, retirement, modesty – was adverse to it.”
So it’s fair to say that John Redmond’s great ambition was that Ireland’s Sons would be Imperial Cannon Fodder and that their demure Sisters would sit at home Sewing Socks For Soldiers.
Yours faithfully
Donal Kennedy
Out of all the Irish leaders (Carson, Criag, Collins and De Valera) during the Home Rule Crisis, I always felt that Redmond was the only true democrat among them. I wonder how it would have played out if the First World War hadn’t occurred.
I suppose we will never know.
He wasn’t much of a democrat when he refused to recognize the democratic will of the unionist people. Had he done how different history may have been. No Easter Rebellion. No war of independence. No civil war. A council of Ireland.
But MT he was the only one who played within the rules of a parliamentary democracy of the time. He never threatened rebellion or refused to work with the Westminister parties.
He advanced the cause of a more autonomous Ireland peacefully and had he the war not broke out he may have got it.
Hard to know how it would have went had Home Rule came in without the war. Carsons threatening of a rebellion may have been a bluff, there’s certainly evidence that suggests he felt the crisis was getting out of hand.
My own opinion is that perhaps minus the war the UK would still include Southern Ireland with the island of Ireland having a devolved goverment similar to Scotland.
Redmond would probably be considered a hero if that was the case rather than the pariah many of the more hardline Republicans seem to consider him.
Just a though, as I said we will never know.
Yeah the “democratic” will of the unionists ready to be enforced seditiously through the guns of the UVF, MT. This was in defiance of the parliamentary will and the national right of the Irish people expressed via the ballot box.
“Yeah the “democratic” will of the unionists ready to be enforced seditiously through the guns of the UVF, MT.”
I’m sure you’ll apply the same logic to nationalists, who were also ready to, *and did*, enforce their will seditiously through the guns of the Irish Volunteers and IRA?
“This was in defiance of the parliamentary will and the national right of the Irish people expressed via the ballot box.”
Irish independence was in defiance of the parliamentary will.
The unionist people expressed their right via the ballot box too.
Try some balance and objectivity.
I’m no historian but I thought that was a cheap shot.
Dominic -what was a cheap shot?.
MT. Churchill said in 1914 that Carson was leader of half Ulster.
Carson never spoke for Ulster. I don’t think he ever invoked democracy,nor that he or his party favoured the the abolition of the Lords’ Veto, the enfranchisement of women, nor the
freedom of Asians or Africans.
The 1916 Rising gave all of Ireland freedom from Conscription, and, from 1923 to the
present freedom from war. In the 31 years immediately after the Civil War there were less than 40 judicial hangings in the 26 Counties, and in the 62 years since 1954, none at all.
No Government anywhere has ushered in the Kingdom of Heaven.But the electoral burial
of John Redmond’s party was an enlightened popular choice.
“MT. Churchill said in 1914 that Carson was leader of half Ulster.”
He was leader of the unionist people.
“The 1916 Rising gave all of Ireland freedom from Conscription, and, from 1923 to the
present freedom from war. In the 31 years immediately after the Civil War there were less than 40 judicial hangings in the 26 Counties, and in the 62 years since 1954, none at all.”
Not sure I follow the apparent logic that there would have been more criminality in a home rule Ireland. Bizarre.
As for opting out of the fight against Nazism..That was not something to be proud of.
Picking out one or two things a political leader of a hundred years ago said and passing judgement on it is not good historical analysis, especially if it is used as propaganda for a different political view. That is why it is a cheap shot, your last sentence in your original post confirms it.
“But MT he was the only one who played within the rules of a parliamentary democracy of the time. He never threatened rebellion or refused to work with the Westminister parties.”
True, but parliamentary democracy was seeking to subvert democracy for unionists and Redmond supported that.
“He advanced the cause of a more autonomous Ireland peacefully and had he the war not broke out he may have got it.”
He would have got it for the 26 at least.
“My own opinion is that perhaps minus the war the UK would still include Southern Ireland with the island of Ireland having a devolved goverment similar to Scotland.”
Certainly possible. Also possible that the South would have moved peacefully to a republic with no bloodshed albeit in slower time.
To Dominic Hendron
Redmond’s St Patrick’s Day speech in London 1913 was an unambiguous declaration of his
ambition for Ireland.
It might be contrasted with Parnell’s del;aration that no man can put a limit to the march of a nation. Irishmen in Redmond’s vision were to march in Britain’s Khaki.
It might be contrasted with the Easter Week Proclamation endorsed in by-Elections in 1917
and the General Election of 1918, local elections in 1920 and subsequent General Elections.
All governing parties for most of Ireland since traced their origins to the 1916 Rising and
the elections of in the years immediately following it.
In January 1913 Redmond was very specific about excluding women from the franchise and
from public life. John Dillon, Redmond’s successor, in a separate interview with C P Scott
also declared that he had come round to the view that women should not have the vote.
Both Sinn Fein and the Irish Labour Party campaigned for female suffrage from their
inception. The Easter Week Proclamation incorporated that demand.
I have not twisted the words of either Redmond or Dillon. I believe they meant what they
said in the passages quoted. Hardly “a cheap shot!”
I wonder is it that simple. De Valera and Collins didn’t fare so well dealing with Loyd George et. al. when they had exhausted all other methods of change. It seems to me that Redmond and Kettle and many more get a raw deal from the “winners” in our history and their torchbearers. But as I said, I’m no historian.
Dominic : Redmond in 1913 had jettisoned the position he had during the Boer War and
after, when Tom Kettle raising funds for his party in New York had been glad to have on his
platform the unrepentant Fenian “terrrorist” O’Donovan Rossa, and another terrorist who
helped smash the van in Manchester when Constable?/Sergeant Brett was shot dead.
In 1913 Redmond stood for Empire as he did in 1914 on terms never put to the electorate.
In March 1916 Redmond made representations for the expansion of a munitions factory in
Dublin’s Parkgate St to give full-time employment to 1,400 people,some of whom might have spent their off-duty hours sewing socks for soldiers, or even playing catch-as-catch- can with a tight-breeched British British Artilleryman?
The insurgents promised the setting up of a government based on adult suffrage of both genders, and at the earliest opportunity the voters took them at their word.
Raw force, and the promised renewal of raw force on a merciless scale as used on the
Boers were employed by the Imperial power to negate the will of the Irish people.
De Valera and Collins and other good men and womendid their best to persuade the British to leave Ireland – A Brexit Before Its Time.
The EU are not waging a war on Britain, nor threatening an Immediate and Terrible War
on them if they act in accordance with the recent referendum, but I suppose you think
the EU has that right.
Perhaps you have a more nuanced appreciation of history to counter my simple arguments,
and you will ask Jude to host a Blog of your own.
I find your remarks silly and tiresome.