Are you a Christian? If that question sounds like one of the Saved Brethren on your doorstep, I apologise – few enjoy having their East Enders interrupted. No, it’s a question I had to ask myself after listening to the Orange Order’s Grand Chaplain, Reverend Mervyn Gibson.
Mervyn was on BBC Radio Ulster/Raidio Uladh’s Talk Back a whileback, and William Crawley had touched delicately on whether the Grand Chaplain would feel comfortable getting together with Catholic clergymen as fellow-Christians in an act of worship. For a big man, the Grand Master is remarkably nimble: he danced around that question with an agility that’d make a man half his age and half his weight green with envy. But why didn’t he just answer the question?
It’s a mystery to many, what thoughts wander and collide in the brain of the Grand Chaplain. I suspect that his answer might have been “No, we in the Orange Order don’t consider Catholics Christians”. Something to do with the Mass, I think. As you probably know, Orangemen are not permitted to attend Catholic acts of worship.
But to give Mervyn his due, he did tell William Crawley that he’d like to see that rule keeping Orangemen out of Catholic churches changed.
Alas, not all Orangemen are as liberal in their thinking as the Grand Chaplain (do be quiet, Virginia).
When Ballymoney councillor John Finlay got to hear about it, he wasn’t a bit pleased. “Some Protestants accept that the mass (sic) is blasphemous, but they justify attendance at a funeral by asserting that they are only there to pay their respects and do not participate in any way in the mass (sic) itself. But to my mind, that is a bridge too far. Surely, out of respect for our Saviour, we must never willingly be present at any such act of blasphemy”.
Right. You can see what the Grand Chaplain is up against. He’s also up against some pretty stern stuff in the Orange Order’s rule-book. Like this, for example:
“’I do declare that I am not, nor ever was, a Roman-Catholic or Papist; that I was not, am not, or ever will be, a member of the society called “United Irishmen” , nor any other society or body of men, who are enemies to his Majesty, or the glorious constitution of these realms; and that I never took the oath to that or any other treasonable society.”
I’d venture even Councillor Finlay would be unperturbed if the Order snipped out the bit about the United Irishmen, since such men appear to be thin on the ground for over two hundred years now. But I’d suspect that he and the Grand Chaplain would be as one in their commitment to the am-not-and-never-was-a-Roman-Catholic-or-Papist bit.
There are high hopes that as we’ve (presumably) seen the last of the Drumcree stand-off, we will now have seen the back of the Ardoyne stand-off. So you could say that the few Orange marches that were contentious have now be resolved.
You could, but you’d still be left with this question: does the Orange Order serve to bring our divided community together, or does it prefer to separate the sheep from the goats? I think it’s safe to say that it’s the latter rather than the former. The Orange Order yearly provides marches that bring colour and music and general excitement into lives which are otherwise starved of these things. Unfortunately, it does so while glorying in a history littered with sectarianism, has rules which clearly aim to present Catholicism as close-as-bedamned to the Devil’s empire, and which celebrates a 300 years + battle in which Protestantism in the form of William of Orange triumphed over Catholicism in the form of James II.
But but but, you say. That’s to misunderstand the benevolent nature of Orangeism. Really?
In that case, let’s enrich society further by creating an organisation that refuses admission to Protestants, that declares Protestant worship to be idolatry. With our new organisation established, let’s be considerate of others and march just one thousand times a year.
What’s more, our new organisation would promise not to march through or beside Protestant areas, wouldn’t march in circles outside Protestant churches playing anti-Protestant tunes, and would see to it that only a few of its followers got legless on lager and from time to time urinated against a Protestant church wall. So would the creation of such an organisation be OK? Mervyn? John? Anyone?
Orange men are a joke jude i just laughed at them
One feels, Esteemed Blogmeister, that the Reverend Mervyn Gibson might do well to get out a wee bit more.
Out of Norneverland, that is and come south of the Black Sow’s Dyke. Where he could find a political anomaly which is chock a block with the most pleasant of cultural shocks. And whose de facto anthem is:
-Aberration once Again !
There he will find that the Free Southern Stateen is a a very warm house indeed, its cultural central heating thermostatted to the Rev’s own precise and personal preference, according to all trending reports emanating from the Central Stats Office.
For here he will find in the sniffy monominded media on Liffeyside that The Gibson Girl (of both genders) has undergone a not unremarkable revival.
The original Gibson Girl was the creation of the social satirist and artist Charles D. Gibson at the turn of the 19th and 20th Centuries in The Land of Uncle Sam. His precise pen-and-ink drawings featured in the fashionable magazines and newspapers of the era.
And sketched how the USA was morphing into the Land of Aunt Samantha long, long time before the m-word had even a chance of being conceived, much less aborted.
Gibson depicted The Gibson Girl as the dominant sex, literally examining comical little men with a magnifying glass, and in a breezy manner, crushing them under foot. Next to the spotless beauty of the Gibson Girl, mere men often appeared as simpletons and bumblers.
Not that any of this need perturb the manly MerVyn one iota: the Gibson Girls of Doll Eireann have already crushed their all male church of choice – the one ruled from Rome by he who favours toxic Red Sox over the Orange same-socks as prescribed by the one with moxy, Dr Comfort.
There now exists a vacuum for a State Religion in the post RC region south of the Dyke of the Black Sow. And nature being a Gibson Girl, of course, is naturally on the look out for a larger than wife substitute who will be suitably dutiful and equipped with a dogcollar.
Which obsequious lapdog they can then take for a stroll in the environs of Doll Eireann when the TV cameras are in bloom, while whistling this toon du jour:.
-Who’s afraid of wolf whistles now, Virginia?.
SOUTHERN COMFORT WITH A SPLASH OF ORANGE SASH
In a FSS where a Papist Priest is syn for Perve
An orthodoxy from which no body dare swerve
So let him put to bed
His dread that ‘Fr. Ted’
Is a hors d’ouevre for a series called ‘Rev. Merv’.
You’re quite a nimble man yourself Jude with that last paragraph. Seek and you shall find should be our approach to these matters rather than looking through Belfast centric glasses. The point was made during that interview that there is a dichotomy between the country and the town where farming communities are much more accommodating to their neighbours.
I have heard Orangemen from the country on radio programmes making this very point.
Seamus Mallon made this very point many years ago and there are many anecdotal stories of ordinary people accepting each others differences and getting on with life.
The plague of sectarianism is often down to individuals rather than communities, at least anytime I’ve seen it I could point to the person who was carrying it. The only antidote to the poison is accommodation and acceptance. Not an organisation such as you suggest. Even if the light is but a flicker, walk towards it and leave the darkness behind.
Those Orangemen from the country are so accomdating to their neighbours they’ll even club together and buy land to make sure it doesn’t fall into the hands of any Catholic neighbours.
How thoughtful?
” buy land to make sure it doesn’t fall into the hands of any Catholic neighbours.”
Yep, the Ulster Land Fund. Backed and supported by the main Unionist political parties as well.
Some have suggested drawing up list of Orange owned businesses in order for Catholics to boycott because its profits are being streamed into this fund.
Reminds me of a song: Down Down Deeper and Down, that’s alliteration.
I hope the likes of Jarlath Burns – in loco parentis – and the rest of the letsgetalongerists read your blog ,jude, before they hold out the hand of friendship to the 17th century bigots in our country. The orangemen can proudly claim to be non sectarian. Sure don’t catholic schools come to visit us.
fiosrach
Christ taught that we should hold out the hand of friendship to anyone including our enemies and thus including the Orange Order.
Christ would have been a letsgetalongerist.
Like me.
That’s ok for you Christians but what about the rest?
fiosrach
I am not a Christian.
There are many ideas in Christianity that are worth considering even without the whole God business.
Would you not agree that for those who belong to any version of Christian faith they are indeed urged to hold out the hand of friendship (or charity) to the Orange Order or indeed to anyone who might seek to harm them?
Brilliant piece,i was brought up as catholic in west Belfast.I gave up on Christianity because I lost the will to live in and around it.What I mean is……..the fear, the hate,the mistrust,the intimidation,the sectarianism,the discrimination…..just a few of the things so-called Christians cunjure up (all of you) to prove how loyal they are to their saviour………no gays, no catholics,no nothing no-one………Brilliant question Jude,……….Are you a Christian?……Thank GOD i’m not…….haha see what I did there?
“…..just a few of the things so-called Christians cunjure up (all of you) to prove how loyal they are to their saviour”
Basqueceltic, that’s not Christianity. That’s like saying Islam is what the Taliban or ISIS does.
Last time I looked Christ said Love Thy Neighbour. Not something the Orange Order does. Christianity is not hatred.
Glad to see a reply……in my opinion….christianity.is irony personified……too many people ready to hate in the name of it…..tell me i’m wrong.
Jude???????!!!!!!!! What have I done wrong???Ive got two names…….wtfrig???
Oops – sorry, BASQUECELTIC . My mistake – tá bron orm…
“too many people ready to hate in the name of it…..tell me i’m wrong”
Your wrong Tomas. Everything/body can be used and abused. Religion is the most common thing that has been used and abused in human history, all religions, not just Christianity. If there was no religion, then some people would just turn to something else to use and abuse for the sake of hating others, whether it be race, politics, etc.
Many Muslims and Hindu’s hated each other in India before partition. But yet many other Muslims and Hindu’s were working towards peace too.
In the North many Protestants and Catholics hated each other but yet we know many Catholic and Protestant clergy were working together to bring peace and still are. The like of Paisley used and twisted Christianity for his own agenda.
The issue in the North specifically was never about religion (though there was/are religious fundamentalists, like the Orange Order), it was mostly about politics, history and money.
People are trying to make out that country Orangemen are much nicer and more accommodating than their Belfast brethren.
Think of the number of years the Drumcree nonsense has been running, and after the ‘apparent’ settlement of the Ardoyne crisis, they are thinking of an early morning completion of their march – after all, they haven’t been able to get home for the past ten years or so!
So much for Jude’s hope that the Ardoyne ‘solution’ could be a template for a Drumcree solution – like hell it will.
“Think of the number of years the Drumcree nonsense has been running, and after the ‘apparent’ settlement of the Ardoyne crisis”
Drumcree is over. I spoke to a few residents of Gravaghy Road and they said they wont ever accept Orange men on their road again. Its not up to the Orange men (or media) if Drumcree is over or not, its up to the residents. If the Orange men want to keep protesting then let them protest for another 20 years or 200 years if need be.
They cant have a return parade in Ardoyne again unless the residents agree. But who do they mean by “residents”? We all know if there was a vote in Ardoyne the vast majority would vote to oppose the morning and evening parade. But its being portrayed as if CARA represents all the residents, which isn’t the case. I don’t know why but I just don’t trust CARA. Dee Fennell and GARC has been painted as the bad guys over the past few weeks. Its ironic that members of CARA and Sinn Fein are behind this, given that SF use to be demonized by the media in a similar way for so long, aided by the SDLP.
As commentator Chris Donnelly (a supporter of CARA) said after the last return parade: “That should be the return parade over for good. That’s the resolution”. If members of CARA had any common sense they would agree with him. No talks, the return parade is over for good.
” which celebrates a 300 years + battle in which Protestantism in the form of William of Orange triumphed over Catholicism in the form of James II.”
That’s what the Orange Order preaches in order to divide this society along religious lines. The reality was very different, which is often the case when it comes to Orangeism/Unionism. There were Protestants and Catholics in both Williams and James armies. There were Dutch, French, Irish and English in both armies. King William even carried the Papal Banner before going to the Battle of the Boyne. He and his army were blessed by Catholic monks before the Battle too. After the Battle was won, the Pope even held a Mass in celebration of the victory.
After the Siege of Derry, King William rewarded very few of the Protestant besieged. He had promised to reward their loyalty and compensate them for losses. Very few were ever compensated. Indeed one of the heroes of the siege died in a debtors prison. Robert Lundy, the notorious “Lundy”, was even pardoned by William for trying to surrender the city. He continued to work for William in Europe, I believe…..
The Battle of the Boyne was very political, not religious. The Orange Order have twisted it to suit their own fundamentalist protestant extremism. The Orange Orders venom is chiefly reserved for Catholics but sometimes you hear/see a hint of hatred towards the Church of Ireland/Anglicanism because of its close similarity to Catholicism. Of course, if there was a large Muslim/Hindu population here, I’m sure we would see some venom shot in their direction too.
“When Ballymoney councillor John Finlay got to hear about it, he wasn’t a bit pleased”
There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing with something. But there is a difference between disagreeing with something and attacking something. What we see coming from many Unionists is disagreement and attacking. I don’t agree with Protestantism but I don’t preach a hatred of it or its practices/values. Terminology is very important. One senior Orange man at Twaddell is recorded in front of a baying crowd referring to Catholics as “Papists”. With words like these and the preaching of hatred by the Orange Order over the years, is it any wonder so many sectarian psychopaths were members of the Orange Order? Indeed one of the Shankill Butchers is a member of the Orange Lodge that parades by St Patricks Chapel.
I feel the Orange Order has as much to contribute to our society as the KKK does to easing racial tension in the United States. But the Orange Order itself is in decline. Its membership since the 1960’s has been declining and it now has just 1/3 of the members it had in 1960.
What the Orange Order could’ve did a long time ago to help our society was to stop contentious parades, especially the one at Drumcree and a few others. If they had have done that many lives would’ve been saved, many families would’ve been spared being destroyed and a torrent of hatred wouldn’t have flowed into young protestants. But I guess that was the whole point…..
I too listened to the reverend on talkback and would therefore beg to differ that he truly wants to see this ban removed. In case anybody thinks he went onto talkback solely to start a debate on this subject then you would be very much mistaken. He was primarily on to discuss the recent ardoyne parade deal. Whilst on the programme he was endeavouring to paint a picture that the orange order had demonstrated how mature and willing it was not to offend anyone but rather the ardoyne dispute was mainly down to a power struggle between GARC and SF. I.e this whole dispute was not really about orange folk marching down a road and that actually they don’t offend anyone as they are a peaceful Christian organisation.
Now during this PR stunt William Crawley ambushed him by asking him would he call on the removal of orange order ban on members attending Catholic Church services. He tactfully and diplomatically suggested that he would ‘agree to whatever the orange membership decided’ in the event of them taking a vote on removing the ban. Reading between the lines or not, by the end of the interview I don’t think anyone genuinely believed the reverend was seriously going to put this topic at the top of agenda at the next orange order meeting. PR was all it was.
I agree generally with Ryans comments above.I remember clearly Orange Parades being escorted through catholic areas,,while the residents and protestors were battered off the roads,,who could forget the last time they went down Garvahy Road,which resulted in years of Drumcree standoff,,sectarianism is alive and well,,loyalist paramilitaries have not disbanded and are recruiting with the knowlege of PSNI..worth a mention is their chant “this is our country,youse are second class citizens” not much in the line of accomadation there,or mutual respect,,we live in hope
“while the residents and protestors were battered off the roads”
Yep, countless videos on youtube showing the brutality by the RUC. Many residents were even knocked out cold, blood streaming into their faces.
“,,loyalist paramilitaries have not disbanded and are recruiting with the knowlege of PSNI”
Yep and they are being allowed to. Remember, the UDA was legal for 20 years whilst committing numerous sectarian murders under the name of the UFF. Yes, 20 years. What more evidence do people/media need to show the UDA/UVF are being run by MI5/Downing Street? Danny Morrison said the British Government fear the truth about Pat Finuncane’s murder being exposed because the paper trail leads right back to No.10 Downing Street.
“worth a mention is their chant “this is our country,youse are second class citizens””
That’s the point of their parades, especially contentious parades, its to instil sectarianism and a sense of superiority into protestants/unionists. The media turn a blind eye to all this and the British Government refuses to clamp down on them, they would never tolerate such parades in England but they do here because they want to keep a foot hold on this island.
I believe that the reverend merv was in a very special branch of the police at one time in his life.
Giving all the negativities surrounding the practice of Christianity here’s a positive that I think is sadly waning. I grew up in a generation whose parents had faith, especially mothers who would bombard heaven on their children’s behalf in what Paul called, “tears and silent entreaty”. In this faithless generation how many will be lost?