‘Thatcher & The Hunger-Strike: A Mother’s Love & A Lady’s Vengeance’ by Donal Lavery

 

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Recently I watched a favourite film from my childhood – Some Mother’s Son. Although not precisely accurate in the timing of the actual events, it’s a powerful depiction of one of the worst yet bravest episodes in Irish history. When I first saw it as a child, I suddenly knew what I wanted to do with my life. My mother had been a Personal Assistant to Belfast Catholic solicitor and former SDLP politician, Paschal O’Hare. As a result, I knew all too well at an early age that we could get into our car one morning and never get out alive; exposing me at an early age to the horrors perpetrated by the state. But the ethos of the film and Mr. O’Hare’s example motivated me to want to become a solicitor specialising in securing what justice was possible for republicans and republican prisoners, in the bygone Orange State. I had a photo, decorated with rosary, of Patrick Finucane on my bedroom wall and from a young age was climbing lampposts to help Sinn Fein get elected.

When future generations look back at those turbulent events, the majority of the world will regard Sands and his comrades as martyrs true to the end, as well as the few politicians/professionals fully willing to stand up for their rights throughout it all (like Tony Benn, Fr. Raymond Murray, Neil Blaney and Sile DeValera). When you see the love and affection depicted by the mothers and families of the prisoners, you can’t help but think that it would take a very cold person, let alone a mother, to deny them any empathy at all. They weren’t just some mother’s sons, they were ten of Ireland’s bravest sons.

So why did Margaret Hilda Thatcher show no such affection for other women’s sons, when she rushed to avoid her own son being executed for his role in an illegal coup d’etat in Africa? Surely that constituted “terrorism” most foul on his part? I think I know why and it wasn’t all political manoeuvring. After all, they got all their demands just after the strike ended. So she starved them to death deliberately.

The far right-wing spy-master and architect of “Ulsterisation”, Airey Neave, had been her spokesman on “Northern Ireland” before she took office. Some commentators and even the ‘Iron Lady’ movie have made subtle references to the possibility that Thatcher and Neave were involved in an intimate relationship with one another. He closely managed her leadership campaign to destroy the Tory moderates and she rewarded him with the portfolio he most wanted upon electoral victory – a prospective office to terrorise the Irish to the hilt, using the darkest of methods of war.

When republicans assassinated Neave, to Thatcher it became personal, not just political. There are many ironies from that dark era. One was the fact that the then Irish Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, was intransigent (under pressure from the anti-republican wing of his party) in asserting the demands of the prisoners, as a means of ending the strike – but oddly enough, he had tried to arm the IRA in the early 70s while Finance Minister. Haughey’s lack of resolve resulted in Fianna Fáil never again winning an overall majority. Another irony was that the previous UK Labour government had afforded political status to them, only to take it away when they needed the votes of a handful of Unionist MP’s (and Gerry Fitt) to stay in office.

Despite massive state censorship, intimidation and a right-wing Fine Gael/ Labour coalition coming to power, the Irish people refused, in their hearts and in the ballot boxes, to criminalise the prisoners. Against all odds, some were elected to the Dail and Sands became the MP-elect for Fermanagh and South Tyrone. It seemed for a moment as though they just might snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. But Thatcher wouldn’t have it. With ice in her blood, she was ready to remorselessly starve them all to death, quickly passing legislation to ensure another could not be elected upon the death of Bobby.

I agree with Ken Livingstone that Margaret Thatcher’s record on Ireland was a most brutal one; of systematic state murder, torture and death squads. I also agree with his advocacy of Britain coming completely clean on what really went on here. Those who pretend there was a democratic way back then aren’t fooling any right thinking person – Sunningdale was allowed to collapse because Loyalists refused to share power with Catholics. Although he idolised her in most ways, Ireland was the one policy of hers which Tony Blair wholeheartedly dismantled, beginning the process of treating the Irish people with some respect and dignity. Blair later wrote in his autobiography that Sands’s suffering was one of the most touching and emotional experiences of the whole troubled ordeal between Britain and Ireland – it’s hard to think a British Prime Minister would admit to being inspired by the writings of a so-called IRA “terrorist”. But irrespective of Bobby gaining a much larger personal mandate than her, Thatcher stuck to her guns, only giving in after each of the men had perished at her hands and later beginning secret talks with those she wanted eliminated.

The Hunger-Strike didn’t just demonstrate the extraordinary courage of the prisoners, but particularly that of their families and communities. Women in particular have carried Ireland through the darkest of hours. When I think something is bad in my life, I recall how much tougher that period would have been, particularly for the mothers involved. No matter what befalls us as a nation, nothing will ever be as tragic yet so determined as that seminal event in our history. For their example and sacrifice, we owe them big. It began the move towards politics and dialogue. It led to the peace we now enjoy. It established a precedent here and abroad which no British Government can go back on.

Now, the peace process changed the fortunes of us all in different ways – I’m now an accountant-in-training and I don’t have to worry that my children could die upon entering the family car like I once did. But that deep realisation that at times the most heart-breaking of circumstances can bring out the absolute best in people has always stuck with me. It soothes the soul. For there are those therein who don’t simply suffer throughout the experience of history, they make history.

The other most pertinent irony of all is that Thatcher died on the same date Sands was elected. It’s odd that the very day when life was slipping from her meant a forced empathy of circumstances with Bobby Sands, the man she helped murder. An Act of God perhaps or just sheer coincidence? With this wicked old hag, who destroyed the lives of so many of her own people, particularly in industrial/mining Britain, having to have a state-subsidised funeral, and people actually being paid to attend (like MPs), as though she was some sort of latter-day saint. I say “hag” because compared to the strong maternal figures whose sons she mercilessly killed without batting an eyelid, she certainly was no woman; not on their terms!

In her eyes, those men died as “villains” but to the world they are commemorated as heroes. Whatever her motivations, Sands and his comrades live on in their poetry, song and sacrifice, across the hearts of the globe. In the event of a real Republic being established in Ireland, they and their writings should decorate the most valuable of our bank-notes, buildings and regalia. I would raise their statue in pure gold.
As for the “Iron Lady”, well.. You don’t have to worry about coal where you are now Mrs. Thatcher!

79 Responses to ‘Thatcher & The Hunger-Strike: A Mother’s Love & A Lady’s Vengeance’ by Donal Lavery

  1. MT October 20, 2016 at 4:44 pm #

    “My mother had been a Personal Assistant to Belfast Catholic solicitor and former SDLP politician, Paschal O’Hare. As a result, I knew all too well at an early age that we could get into our car one morning and never get out alive; exposing me at an early age to the horrors perpetrated by the state. But the ethos of the film and Mr. O’Hare’s example motivated me to want to become a solicitor specialising in securing what justice was possible for republicans and republican prisoners, in the bygone Orange State. I had a photo, decorated with rosary, of Patrick Finucane on my bedroom wall and from a young age was climbing lampposts to help Sinn Fein get elected.”

    So you were aware of the danger of a terror attack on your mother, yet supported a movement that inflicted terror attacks on others. How appalling.

    And you were motivated by sectarianism, seeking justice only for republicans.

  2. MT October 20, 2016 at 4:48 pm #

    “iticians/professionals fully willing to stand up for their rights throughout it all (like Tony Benn, Fr. Raymond Murray, Neil Blaney and Sile DeValera). ”

    What rights?

    “They weren’t just some mother’s sons, they were ten of Ireland’s bravest sons.”

    They were also ten of Ireland’s most cruel and hate-filled sin, each guilty of horrendous crimes and members of barbarous organisations that destroyed the lives of two thousand souls.

  3. MT October 20, 2016 at 5:17 pm #

    “So she starved them to death deliberatel”

    They starved themselves to death. Nobody forced them to stop eating.

  4. MT October 20, 2016 at 5:20 pm #

    “Another irony was that the previous UK Labour government had afforded political status to them, only to take it away when they needed the votes of a handful of Unionist MP’s (and Gerry Fitt) to stay in office.:

    Entirely wrong.

    First, special category status was introduced by the Conservative Heath government. Second, it was ended in 1976 on the recommendation of the Gardiner report and when the Labour Government had a majority.

  5. billy October 20, 2016 at 6:03 pm #

    why after all the trauma you went through as a child at the hands of the dreaded brits do you attack people who dissent from british rule now.you seem mixed up.

    • Wolfe tone October 20, 2016 at 6:50 pm #

      Would have to agree with you Billy! It seems Donal has a lot of learning to do. I bet you he looks fondly on the Clintons…….simply cos they gave Gerry Adams a visa at one time.

  6. Mick Early October 20, 2016 at 6:04 pm #

    Go raibh maith agar a Domhnaill!

  7. MT October 20, 2016 at 6:14 pm #

    “Sunningdale was allowed to collapse because Loyalists refused to share power with Catholics.”

    Another error. Sunningdale collapses because of the UWC strike. Sunningdale was opposed primarily because of the council of Ireland rather than power-sharing.

  8. MT October 20, 2016 at 6:17 pm #

    ” It’s odd that the very day when life was slipping from her meant a forced empathy of circumstances with Bobby Sands, the man she helped murder.”

    Sands took his own life. He wasn’t murdered. He did, however, support the murder of others. Other hunger strikers took.part in murder and attempted murder and all were members of murderous gangs.

  9. James October 20, 2016 at 7:35 pm #

    Thank you Donal, for a wonderful, well-written piece. Bobby and the other nine men who followed him into eternity will never be forgotten by those who cherish their courage and sacrifice. Their names will live forever. More than can be said of Thatcher, the British publics’ reaction on hearing of her death spoke volumes.

    • MT October 20, 2016 at 7:37 pm #

      “Bobby and the other nine men who followed him into eternity will never be forgotten by those who cherish their courage and sacrifice. Their names will live forever.”

      Most of these monsters have been forgotten already. Apart from Sands most people couldn’t name any of them.

      • Wolfe tone October 20, 2016 at 8:44 pm #

        “Most of these monsters have been forgotten already. Apart from Sands most people couldn’t name any of them.”

        I bet you you can name them. I bet you can’t name all the British army/R.U.C monsters though. Never mind, just buy a poppy and that will ease your conscience.

        • PF October 20, 2016 at 9:18 pm #

          “Never mind, just buy a poppy and that will ease your conscience.”

          Isn’t the reason I contribute to the Royal British Legion Poppy Appeal.

  10. Dominic Hendron October 20, 2016 at 7:45 pm #

    The provos robbed nationalist people of proper politics for years and cynically dragged us into a conflict we couldn’t win, giving excuses to our opponents and alienating us from the rest of the Island. That is the context of the hunger strikes. We’re still in recovery and will be for a long time yet. And that doesn’t even begin to tell the story of community division within the north. The real heroes are the mothers and fathers who tried to keep their children out of the paramillitaries and give them a good life and that’s not taking away from the mothers and fathers who knew nothing of their children’s activities until they got their doors battered in and their sons dragged away. Thatcher made things worse but she made things worse for her own people too.

    • MT October 20, 2016 at 7:50 pm #

      Well said, Dominic. We should be reverie the victims not the perpetrators, the peaceful majority not the violent minority.

    • PF October 20, 2016 at 8:02 pm #

      “The real heroes are the mothers and fathers who tried to keep their children out of the paramillitaries and give them a good life…”

      Exactly.

      And for each of our traditions this moral truth has been overlooked time and time again over the last 20 years or so.

      The simple moral facts are that some are more guilty than others, some are not guilty at all, some were victims and some were victim makers.

      And to discriminate in that way is the right kind of discrimination.

      • MT October 20, 2016 at 8:04 pm #

        Hear hear.

        The most pernicious aspect of the veneration of the hunger strikers is the attempt to portray perpetrators as victims.

    • Wolfe tone October 20, 2016 at 8:38 pm #

      “The provos robbed nationalist people of proper politics for years and cynically dragged us into a conflict we couldn’t win,”

      Another créatúr bocht suffering from that Scandinavian syndrome. When you say ‘we couldn’t win’ it suggests you are very much confused.

      • PF October 20, 2016 at 9:14 pm #

        “Win”.

        Winning is an interesting concept when applied to the indiscriminate murder of civilians carried out by paramilitaries.

        But I agree with you, Wolfetone, the paramilitaries did win something – although the defeat of truth and innocence is not a victory I’d wish to claim.

      • Dominic Hendron October 20, 2016 at 9:31 pm #

        You’re going to have to explain that one WT

  11. Michael Campbell October 21, 2016 at 2:25 am #

    Thatcher was heartless she took the decision to sink the General Belgrano with the loss of nearly 2000 souls. She destroyed industry buying in cheap coal from Poland.She destroyed the unions .She gave the securocrats carte blanche to attack nationalist and republicans in Ireland and when I ionised cheered she double crossed them by signing the Anglo Irish Agreement. She started a phoney war with Argentina about a group of Islands that most people hadn’t heard of that cost hundreds of lives. She even denied the existence of society? It was poetic justice thst she was politically stabbed in the back by those she aspired to be part of .She was never totally accepted as she was simple grocers daughter. A near do well despised by those she to a died up too. Ireland has always had a turbulent history and there gave always been villains if the piece and Thatcher will be dispatched to the always anulls of history with all the rest of the despots. Ireland will survive.

    • MT October 21, 2016 at 6:08 am #

      “she took the decision to sink the General Belgrano with the loss of nearly 2000 souls.”

      About 300 lives were lost. Why lie?

      “She started a phoney war with Argentina about a group of Islands that most people hadn’t heard of that cost hundreds of lives.”

      Phoney war?? And it was Argentina that started it.

      “Ireland will survive.”

      Strange comment.

  12. joe bloggs October 21, 2016 at 8:14 am #

    Have to agree with MT’s points here but would only add a couple myself: Sunningdale was also rejected by SF (only to agree to basically the same deal nearly 30 years later….slow learners etc). Also, the hunger strikers did not die in vain….sure, Raymond even got a couple a couple of swings and a slide named after him in Newry!

  13. Jim Neeson October 21, 2016 at 9:54 am #

    Great article Donal. I am 76 years old and for most of that, I have wondered at the bigotry and hate of Loyalists. How can a section of our community be so gulled by the Unionists, Orange Order and their lust for power.Not one iota of that “Orange Supremacy” ever gained anything for the Loyalist people. Yet here we have MT still showing hate and bigotry of everything Irish. He is apparantly aided and abetted by one Joe Bloggs. Can they not see that in the main Republican/Nationalist politics forced the Brits into a situation of there never being an Orange State Supremacy here in the Six Counties again. The future of all the citizens on this Island is a United Ireland. The late David Ervine said that “a United Ireland was inevitable and his job was to attain the best deal for his people” Perhaps MT and Joe Bloggs should pay attention to this late Loyalist Icon.

    • billy October 21, 2016 at 11:33 am #

      loyalist icon…jesus wept

    • MT October 21, 2016 at 5:08 pm #

      “Yet here we have MT still showing hate and bigotry of everything Irish.”

      I haven’t shown hate and bigotry of anything Irish let alone everything. What a silly statement.

      It is this who commit and support terror who show hate and bigotry.

  14. fiosrach October 21, 2016 at 10:12 am #

    Are MT and PF doppelgängers?

    • PF October 21, 2016 at 5:15 pm #

      In so much as we value objective moral truth, perhaps we are.

  15. joe bloggs October 21, 2016 at 10:50 am #

    what hate and bigotry did I show exactly?

    • Jim Neeson October 21, 2016 at 11:38 am #

      Shall I call it sarcastic bigotry ref; Raymond McCreesh and swings and SF being slow learners?
      If there are slow learners they are mostly in the Leadership of Loyalism

  16. joe bloggs October 21, 2016 at 12:25 pm #

    Ref slow learners: I am quoting Seamus Mallon….he must be the bigot. Re Raymond – hatred, maybe, but accurate info. It isn’t bigoted to hate sectarian terrorists (or failed ones).

  17. Freddie mallins October 21, 2016 at 2:58 pm #

    The hunger striker phenomenon has always been a tricky one for unionism. They know perfectly well that there is a vast difference between a common criminal and an individual fighting for a cause ( whether same cause is deemed just or otherwise). They know that common murderers do not give up their lives by way of self-imposed starvation. It just doesn’t happen. Therefore, if unionism is going to argue the wheres and wherefores of this subject, they at least need to concede certain unarguable points, or else they will just appear silly and uneducated.
    It is obvious to me for instance that the reason why the Maze interpretive centre etc did not proceed was because unionism feared the world seeing what really went on. Now they were perfectly at liberty to tell the story as they saw it ( presumably from the prison officers perspective), but still wouldn’t allow the world to see and hear both sides and make up their own minds. Sadly what does that tell you?

    • Willie D. October 21, 2016 at 3:54 pm #

      The hunger strikers had a choice, they choose to starve themselves to death, unfortunately they didn’t give the same choice to others. McElwee, for example, was part of a gang which planted fire bombs in my home town, burning a young woman to death in her shop. Some hero! There seems to be a thesis promoted by some contributors to this site that unless you give unquestioning support to physical force Irish Republicans and the savage, cruel and pointless violence they perpetrated, that you can’t really be Irish, or even more absurdly are “anti-Irish.”

      • giordanobruno October 21, 2016 at 6:16 pm #

        Willie
        That is a point I have tried to make on many occasions..
        Many people support a United Ireland but view what the IRA did as contemptible and cowardly..
        There is something immature in this reverence of violent men, and they seem to garner greater respect than those who chose to stand their ground peacefully.

        Sinn Fein do not own republicanism, indeed some might question whether they are republicans at all, and indeed lazy attacks, typically laden with personal abuse, by their supporters on anyone who disagrees, are more reminiscent of fascism than republicanism.

        • Wolfe tone October 21, 2016 at 6:56 pm #

          “There is something immature in this reverence of violent men, and they seem to garner greater respect than those who chose to stand their ground peacefully.”

          Yes Gio we have heard it all before. Could you give me a few examples whereby people peacefully asked for their freedom from a foreign occupier and it was granted peacefully?And before you say Ghandi/India I’d caution you to check again whether there’s was no violence in that struggle to rid themselves of British rule.
          I sometimes wonder if Irish people who condemned others for taking up arms against British rule, be it in the Easter rising, the north or even further back were doing so to mask their cowardice. Deep down they knew the Brits would never grant freedom to the Irish people without armed struggle but they convince themselves they would to mask their own inadequacies. I.e ‘I would’ve agreed to war too with Britain if I thought they were never gonna grant us our freedom but you see the British were going to give it to us anyway so all those who took up arms were stupid and I was smart’ lmao.

          Make no bones about it, without militant/Irish republicanism(despite all its failings) interfering in British rule in Ireland, this country would be a right little England, that is for sure. No amount of sophistry from Gio,M.T or whoever can disguise that fact.

          • PF October 21, 2016 at 7:00 pm #

            Which part of petrol bombing a restaurant fits with “armed struggle”?

          • MT October 21, 2016 at 7:08 pm #

            “Could you give me a few examples whereby people peacefully asked for their freedom from a foreign occupier and it was granted peacefully?”

            The question is irrelevant as Northern Ireland didn’t have a “foreign occupier”. However, although not “occupations” many colonies were granted independence from the 1950s in the absence of violence.

            “I sometimes wonder if Irish people who condemned others for taking up arms against British rule, be it in the Easter rising, the north or even further back were doing so to mask their cowardice.”

            Why do you sometimes wonder that? Strange.

            “Deep down they knew the Brits would never grant freedom to the Irish people without armed struggle but they convince themselves they would to mask their own inadequacies. I.e ‘I would’ve agreed to war too with Britain if I thought they were never gonna grant us our freedom but you see the British were going to give it to us anyway so all those who took up arms were stupid and I was smart’ lmao.”

            I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say. Had the anti-democratic Easter “rising” not taken place, most likely Southern Ireland would have evolved peacefully into a republic and the absence of.violence and bitterness may well have reconciled NI to some form of unity with the South.

            “Make no bones about it, without militant/Irish republicanism(despite all its failings) interfering in British rule in Ireland, this country would be a right little England, that is for sure.”

            It’s not for sure at all. In fact what you say seems to me to be an unlikely outcome.

            “No amount of sophistry from Gio,M.T or whoever can disguise that fact.”

            Neither Gio nor I have engaged in sophistry.

          • Wolfe tone October 21, 2016 at 7:25 pm #

            M.T, no examples from you either? I rest my case.

            P.F, as you will undoubtedly know, the IRA took upon a campaign to make the occupied six counties unworkable for the British state. Alas that indeed meant everyday life. Alas that meant targeting the economy as well as the military. It may have been misguided/right/wrong but they should be forgiven for engaging in such policies after all their enemy engaged in such tactics albeit at a greater scale. In fact they still engage in such tactics to this day but I guess you havnt noticed. Could you explain to me why Britain/NATO bombed schools,hospitals,power stations and water dams when it invades countries to overthrow a govt?

            Btw could you explain how dropping thousands of incendiary bombs on dozens of German cities during ww2 was just and burning alive hundreds of thousands of people was just? Or perhaps that was a mistake and ‘shouldn’t have happened’?

          • MT October 21, 2016 at 7:28 pm #

            “M.T, no examples from you either? I rest my case.”

            What case are you trying to make?

            “P.F, as you will undoubtedly know, the IRA took upon a campaign to make the occupied six counties unworkable for the British state. Alas that indeed meant everyday life. Alas that meant targeting the economy as well as the military. It may have been misguided/right/wrong but they should be forgiven for engaging in such policies after all their enemy engaged in such tactics albeit at a greater scale. In fact they still engage in such tactics to this day but I guess you havnt noticed. Could you explain to me why Britain/NATO bombed schools,hospitals,power stations and water dams when it invades countries to overthrow a govt?”

            No terror gangs or murderers should be forgiven. Certainly not in the absence of contrition.

            “Btw could you explain how dropping thousands of incendiary bombs on dozens of German cities during ww2 was just and burning alive hundreds of thousands of people was just? Or perhaps that was a mistake and ‘shouldn’t have happened’?”

            Who has claimed it was just and what has it got to do with PIRA terror?

          • PF October 21, 2016 at 7:52 pm #

            The bombing of civilians during WW2 was wrong. I’ve never sought to justify that.

            Your reference to economic targets comes nowhere close to justifying the IRA or UVF murder campaigns – innocent people died when the economy was targeted.

            Those campaigns were murder campaigns, it’s that simple, and civilians were targeted and killed; and no attempt to justify that by use of semantics is honourable in any way.

            If you are tempting to defend the IRA then do that. As I’m not attempting to justify loyalist paramilitaries I don’t need to try and compare their murderous actions to any other historical events in order to sanatise them.

            If you want to justify the IRA then do so on the basis of their actions, not anyone else’s.

            I wish you well with that, though.

          • Wolfe tone October 21, 2016 at 8:52 pm #

            “Your reference to economic targets comes nowhere close to justifying the IRA or UVF murder campaigns – innocent people died when the economy was targeted.”

            Why are you defecting by mentioning loyalist violence? Deal with British army violence if you will.

          • Wolfe tone October 21, 2016 at 8:59 pm #

            ‘“Btw could you explain how dropping thousands of incendiary bombs on dozens of German cities during ww2 was just and burning alive hundreds of thousands of people was just? Or perhaps that was a mistake and ‘shouldn’t have happened’?”

            Who has claimed it was just and what has it got to do with PIRA terror?’

            So you agree that is was unjust murdering hundreds of thousands of Germans? Did ‘great briton’ Churchill offer contrition? If not should you (well you are British after all) lobby the Brit establishment for continuing to laud such a coward up to the present day?

          • MT October 21, 2016 at 9:41 pm #

            “So you agree that is was unjust murdering hundreds of thousands of Germans? Did ‘great briton’ Churchill offer contrition? If not should you (well you are British after all) lobby the Brit establishment for continuing to laud such a coward up to the present day?”

            Stop deflecting. Nobody is trying to justify the deliberate bombing of civilians except you.

          • giordanobruno October 21, 2016 at 9:03 pm #

            wolfie
            You are a bit vague on the success of violent republicanism there.
            They prevented this country becoming a little England?
            Was perfidious Albion planning to invade Dublin in 1969?
            News to me.
            The North is still under a UK government with no end to that in sight.
            Little better than Sunningdale.
            By your logic what is needed is therefore another 20 or 30 years of bombing and shooting,if you really think it was so effective.
            One more push lads.
            Don’t you realise it was Irish men women and children being killed, injured, scarred and traumatised by these heroes?
            All for nothing.
            Certainly no revolution could be totally bloodless, but the changes that took place in Eastern Europe in Czechoslovakia and elsewhere were brought about by peaceful large scale resistance, not prolonged slaughter of civilians.

          • Scott Rutherford October 21, 2016 at 9:53 pm #

            The greatest Irony of the PIRA terror campaign WT is that it probably done the greatest damage to the aspiration of a UI. Killing people is not way to convince a majority of the people that they should support your political cause.

            If the IRA’s goal was a UI then they probably done more harm to that cause than help by there alienation of people from the Protestant/Unionist.

          • PF October 21, 2016 at 10:05 pm #

            “Why are you defecting by mentioning loyalist violence?”

            That wasn’t a deflection; both were unlawful paramilitary and murderous organisations.

            Neither do I see a justification of the IRA from you – I suppose we should be thankful for small mercies.

            As for WW2, as MT has already pointed out, neither he nor I are attempting to justify the murder of civilians. For the record, though, as far as bombing such as those of Dresden are concerned, they were wrong, and unjustified by whatever else Hitler had done and ought to be apologised for. As should any act carried out by any nation’s army which is against the law.

            I’m perfectly clear about all of that.

            But I do understand why justifying the IRA murder campaign must be a difficult moral ask… unless you have a persuasive suggestion.

          • Wolfe tone October 21, 2016 at 10:48 pm #

            “of the PIRA terror campaign WT is that it probably done the greatest damage to the aspiration of a UI. Killing people is not way to convince a majority of the people that they should support your political cause.

            If the IRA’s goal was a UI then they probably done more harm to that cause than help by there alienation of people from the Protestant/Unionist.”

            In your humble opinion Scott. But like Gio,M.T and PF, you continue to ignore the elephant in the room.

            Btw, I hope you and the rest of the British gatekeepers of sophistry on here are leading the charge in calling for the demand that the British state halts bringing violence upon a people, eg Syrians? After all if you are true to your word violence is never justified. Or perhaps the ‘majority’ of Syrians want the British state to bring violence to their country?

            Simply put, Irish republicans won’t take lectures about the rights and wrongs of warfare, from those who evidently support terrorism on a massive scale, albeit from a ‘legitimate’ regime such as a UK government.

          • MT October 21, 2016 at 11:30 pm #

            “Btw, I hope you and the rest of the British gatekeepers of sophistry on here are leading the charge in calling for the demand that the British state halts bringing violence upon a people, eg Syrians? After all if you are true to your word violence is never justified. Or perhaps the ‘majority’ of Syrians want the British state to bring violence to their country?

            Simply put, Irish republicans won’t take lectures about the rights and wrongs of warfare, from those who evidently support terrorism on a massive scale, albeit from a ‘legitimate’ regime such as a UK government.”

            Deflection.

            It would be less painful if you just admitted that you are unable to justify PIRA terror. Your support for it is based simply on ethnic hatred.

          • Wolfe tone October 21, 2016 at 10:58 pm #

            “As should any act carried out by any nation’s army which is against the law.”

            Lol. Whose ‘law’? Britains? Ffs the British, in the present day, are contriving to bend the ‘law’ to excuse British army terrorists for murdering their enemy due to PTST or indeed due to ‘mercy’ killings. Pathetic I know, but just another example how an occupier bends the rules(laws) to suit its own narrative. Yip there is simply no talking to or peaceful demonstration, to such deceitful creatures, I am sure you will agree?

          • MT October 21, 2016 at 11:32 pm #

            “Whose ‘law’? Britains? Ffs the British, in the present day, are contriving to bend the ‘law’ to excuse British army terrorists for murdering.”

            He’s referring to international law.

          • Wolfe tone October 21, 2016 at 11:03 pm #

            “The question is irrelevant as Northern Ireland didn’t have a “foreign occupier”. ”

            It did and does.

          • MT October 21, 2016 at 11:33 pm #

            “It did and does”

            It doesn’t. You’re being very silly.

          • Wolfe tone October 22, 2016 at 9:14 am #

            “Certainly no revolution could be totally bloodless, but the changes that took place in Eastern Europe in Czechoslovakia and elsewhere were brought about by peaceful large scale resistance, not prolonged slaughter of civilians”

            Gio, do you think the Soviet Union rulers were brow beaten into granting freedom to other countries they controlled, simply by people peacefully taking to the streets? Or was it more the case that the soviets knew they hadn’t the capability to maintain Russia never mind other countries under its domain? The entire Soviet Union was in dire straits so a blind man could see that wasn’t sustainable. Added to that the most powerful countries in the world, western countries, were solidly behind those who were demanding their freedom from soviet rule. I am sure by their very backing,it gave those peaceful protesters some kind of assurance and protection from any soviet crackdown. Not only the west and NATO were behind the peaceful protesters but of course we had the Vatican agitating too. With such powerful allies against them the Russians knew their goose was cooked. If only Ireland had the support of such allies we may too have achieved our freedom.

            The British empire never left any country peacefully. When they reluctantly withdrew from some countries they withdrew safe in the knowledge that their interests were to continue in the said countries. It certainly wasn’t out of a keenness to grant democracy or indeed freedom to them.

            Just like the Soviet Union, the British knew they couldn’t sustain the British empire, especially in far flung places in Africa eg. A long drawn out war with Zimbabweans would be logistically too hard to sustain. Ireland on the other hand was far handier for them for obvious reasons. Ironically enough, even when they ‘left’ the free state region they made sure their interests were to continue hence why to demanded and took control of free state ports. Yes even when they agree to leave they endeavour to remain.

          • MT October 22, 2016 at 9:19 am #

            “The British empire never left any country peacefully.”

            Yes it did. Probably most of them.

          • Wolfe tone October 22, 2016 at 9:25 am #

            “It would be less painful if you just admitted that you are unable to justify PIRA terror. Your support for it is based simply on ethnic hatred.”

            Why do you make up lies simply to deflect and further your own agenda? Do you know allastair Campbell by any chance? Don’t answer that as it’s blatantly clear you are a liar anyway.

          • MT October 22, 2016 at 9:27 am #

            “Why do you make up lies simply to deflect and further your own agenda?”

            I don’t.

            “Do you know allastair Campbell by any chance? Don’t answer that as it’s blatantly clear you are a liar anyway.”

            I’m not a liar. On the contrary, I tell the truth.

            You’re deflecting again. If your support for PIRA terror isn’t based on ethnic hatred, then presumably you’d be able to present an argument in its favour instead of trying to deflect the discussion on to Dresden or India.

          • Wolfe tone October 22, 2016 at 10:14 am #

            “I’m not a liar. On the contrary, I tell the truth.”

            Liar and comedian.

          • MT October 22, 2016 at 1:15 pm #

            “Liar and comedian.”

            If you think I’ve lied, feel free to point it out and challenge it. Otherwise, quit deflecting.

          • PF October 22, 2016 at 11:04 am #

            “Lol. Whose ‘law’?”

            It’s no laughing matter.

            And you are obviously very poorly informed.

            But if you can find an international law which permits the kidnapping and murder of its own people, permits the murder of innocents by indiscriminate bombing, and permits the torture of its own community, I’d be interested to read about it.

            Why don’t you just present a case to justify the IRA murder campaign?

            The rest of us here have made clear moral statements.

          • giordanobruno October 22, 2016 at 11:31 am #

            wolfie
            Of course external factors play a part in change and no mass protest here would have happened in a vacuum. There would have been plenty of pressure from the U.S. and elsewhere especially given the seismic events in Eastern Europe.
            How can you argue that at the very least we could not have got as far as we have now, and without all the deaths?
            And possibly we would not have become so toxic that half the people in the South don’t want to touch us with a barge pole.
            The PIRA campaign was wrong morally, it had no chance of achieving its aim, it chose easy targets rather than strategic targets, it left us with a legacy of sectarian fear and hatred we are still trying to get past.
            If you really believe the British will not leave without violence then after 20 years of peace, what are we wasting our time for. Surely it is time for another campaign?
            It is no wonder you have only deflection and whataboutery to offer.
            And really calling people liars is pointless and I would have thought, not acceptable here.

          • PF October 22, 2016 at 11:47 am #

            Gio

            “How can you argue that at the very least we could not have got as far as we have now, and without all the deaths?”

            Both yourself and Scott have drawn our attention to something important.

            There is no reason why, in time, that two Home Rule Parliaments (for that is essentially what they were from the 1920’s) could not and would not have grown closer.

            I said months ago on this site that SF remain to greatest obstacle to a United Ireland.

            That remains my position. The defeat of any one side in the Irish question and the justification of terrorism will not resolve the problem.

          • MT October 22, 2016 at 1:14 pm #

            “Both yourself and Scott have drawn our attention to something important.”

            It was me, not Scott.

          • Wolfe tone October 22, 2016 at 2:27 pm #

            “And possibly we would not have become so toxic that half the people in the South don’t want to touch us with a barge pole.”

            In your opinion.

            It could be argued that they don’t want to touch us because the north continues to be a cold house for Irish people who refuse to doff the cap to British superiority.

            “The PIRA campaign was wrong morally, it had no chance of achieving its aim, it chose easy targets rather than strategic targets, it left us with a legacy of sectarian fear and hatred we are still trying to get past.”

            Hindsight is wonderful. So if it had chosen more strategic targets would it have been successful? Btw, who introduced sectarianism into Ireland? That’s right the very same people we must doff our cap to.

            “It is no wonder you have only deflection and whataboutery to offer.
            And really calling people liars is pointless and I would have thought, not acceptable here.”

            Dry your eyes. Unlike you and others on here I do believe the Irish people have the right to demand their independence and freedom from a foreign invader. Btw, if you and the other defenders of British terrorism on here really want us all to just get along then why do yous keep banging on about what the IRA and other militant Irish republicans did?

            P.s before you complain to Jude, I will apologise for calling British state terror apologist MT a liar, although it could be argued it’s the same thing.

          • MT October 22, 2016 at 5:15 pm #

            “Dry your eyes. Unlike you and others on here I do believe the Irish people have the right to demand their independence and freedom from a foreign invader”

            There was no “foreign invader” and the discussion in any case isn’t about “demanding independence and freedo” it’d about terror.

            “Btw, if you and the other defenders of British terrorism on here really want us all to just get along then why do yous keep banging on about what the IRA and other militant Irish republicans did?”

            Nobody here is defending Briton terror. Yorkshire are defending PIRA terror. And we don’t keep banging on about militant Irish republicans We’re responding to a blog that somebody wrote in support of then.

            “P.s before you complain to Jude, I will apologise for calling British state terror apologist MT a liar, although it could be argued it’s the same thing.”

            I’m not a British state terror apologist. Unloke you, I’m opposed to terror.

          • giordanobruno October 22, 2016 at 7:26 pm #

            PF
            Unfortunately we can only speculate now as to what night have been,

            It seems to me very unlikely that the modest gains made by those who want a United Ireland (including me) could not have been attained through 30 years of non violent protest,or passive resistance or just persistently making a racket.

            For all the death and ruined lives there is still no United Ireland.
            That is the simple bald undeniable fact.

            I think that is why we now have the attempted rewriting of history where we are told the PIRA campaign was not really about Brits Out but actually was all about civil rights.
            It is important that those of us who remember should keep resisting this revisionism.

          • PF October 22, 2016 at 10:03 pm #

            Gio

            Speculate, yes, and perhaps more.

            What I do know, and from first hand experience, is that Unionist people used the term ‘Irish’ to describe themselves much more frequently in the past than now; that even through the ‘Troubles’ there was friendship between many ordinary Protestants/Catholics/Unionists/Nationalists; and that 30 or so years of violence polarised things.

            My feeling is that if there ever is to be a United Ireland, it will be achieved incrementally by cooperation in matters of mutual benefit, and by friendship; but those who think that Unionists respond well to being told what to do (and at the point of a gun) have forgotten that by name, tradition and culture we ‘protest’ and ‘dissent’.

            MT

            Not that it really matters, but, you may well have made a similar point to those made by Scott and Gio, but for one reason or another I didn’t notice it. I haven’t read everything here; and my relevant comments above were prompted by Gio and Scott.

            Bottom line, SF are the greatest hurdle to a United Ireland.

    • PF October 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm #

      “an individual fighting for a cause”, doesn’t necessarily make the cause or the methods just.

      So if we’re going to argue about the where’s and wherefores of the subject we might begin with places like La Mon.

  18. Dominic Hendron October 21, 2016 at 8:21 pm #

    Violence produces bad leaders

  19. Freddie mallins October 22, 2016 at 8:52 am #

    La mon ( horrible as it was) could I suppose be compared to the bombing of Dresden in miniature. Did the bombing of Dresden nullify the validity of the whole war?

    • MT October 22, 2016 at 8:54 am #

      “La mon ( horrible as it was) could I suppose be compared to the bombing of Dresden in miniature. Did the bombing of Dresden nullify the validity of the whole war?”

      Of course not. Unlike the Provo campaign, the Second World War was a just war.

    • PF October 22, 2016 at 11:08 am #

      Freddie

      First of all, I’ve already made a comment about that, here it is repeated:

      “For the record, though, as far as bombing such as those of Dresden are concerned, they were wrong, and unjustified by whatever else Hitler had done and ought to be apologised for.”

      And as I have also said, I’m not attempting to justify the IRA, the UVF or the Dresden bombing, some people, apparently, are attempting to justify the IRA.

      And if you are seriously trying to compare the Nazi Holocaust to Northern Ireland, you have my pity.

      If you’re trying to justify the IRA (including, the kidnapping and murder of its own people, the murder of innocents by indiscriminate bombing, and the torture of its own community), then please do so, I’d be interested to read the attempt.

    • Dominic Hendron October 23, 2016 at 9:01 pm #

      Have a beer Freddie

  20. Freddie mallins October 22, 2016 at 12:04 pm #

    I’ve no intention of defending the IRA, merely endeavouring to put things into perspective. But unionism’s constant refrain would have us all believe that violence erupted from a vacuum. Surely there were the dual injustices of English rule over Irish people and unionist mistreatment of Catholic people. Every man has his breaking point I suppose.

    • MT October 22, 2016 at 1:18 pm #

      “I’ve no intention of defending the IRA, merely endeavouring to put things into perspective. But unionism’s constant refrain would have us all believe that violence erupted from a vacuum. Surely there were the dual injustices of English rule over Irish people and unionist mistreatment of Catholic people. Every man has his breaking point I suppose.”

      If, by “English rule over Irish people” you mean NI’s membership of the UK, that wasn’t and isn’t an injustice. Unionist mistreatment of Catholic people doesn’t justify one murder let alone 2000 murders.

      • ceannaire October 22, 2016 at 1:33 pm #

        “If, by “English rule over Irish people” you mean NI’s membership of the UK, that wasn’t and isn’t an injustice.”

        That’s your opinion. If you don’t see that as an opinion then I suggest you reread your history. NI was created against the wishes of the vast majority of people on this island. In fact, that were threatened with terrible and immediate war if they didn’t comply.

        Membership of the UK wasn’t voted on either whether we are talking about an all Ireland context or even with the NI statelet itself.

        • MT October 22, 2016 at 1:38 pm #

          “That’s your opinion. If you don’t see that as an opinion then I suggest you reread your history. NI was created against the wishes of the vast majority of people on this island. In fact, that were threatened with terrible and immediate war if they didn’t comply.”

          It was created in supportof the wishes of the vast majority of people.living there, which is what matters.

          “Membership of the UK wasn’t voted on either whether we are talking about an all Ireland context or even with the NI statelet itself.”

          Every election is effectively a referendum on the matter.

          • ceannaire October 22, 2016 at 2:25 pm #

            “It was created in supportof the wishes of the vast majority of people.living there, which is what matters.”

            You can direct me to the results of the vote? Three counties were jettisoned because it wouldn’t have added up to “the wishes of the vast majority of people living there”. It was all contrived.

            “Every election is effectively a referendum on the matter.”

            I don’t agree at all with this. People vote for a wide range of reasons and your explanation is far too simplistic.

            If only it were all so simple, MT.

          • MT October 22, 2016 at 5:10 pm #

            “You can direct me to the results of the vote?”

            A simple Google search should work for you.

            “Three counties were jettisoned because it wouldn’t have added up to “the wishes of the vast majority of people living there”. It was all contrived.”

            I was referring to the six counties. Excluding areas that didn’t want to remain in the UK was a good thing. You say ‘contrived’ as though people’s wishes shouldn’t have been respected.

            “I don’t agree at all with this. People vote for a wide range of reasons and your explanation is far too simplistic.”

            If you want to believe that most people don’t want to stay in the UK despite voting regularly for parties advocating such a policy, feel free.

  21. Dominic Hendron October 23, 2016 at 5:52 am #

    The Provo campaign exposed the rawness of nationalism and unionism’s position since the partition of Ireland. It showed the failure of the Govt. of Ireland act. The GFA addressed that failure but mindsets are harder to change as the above exchanges exhibit. Brexit has further complicated things with the growth of English nationalism seeking to dominate all other parts of the UK and Unionism’s bizarre acquiescence against their own interests. Every step towards greater engagement and co-operation on the Island which we all love seems to be cruelly thwarted, from Lemass to Brexit, and it opens up long held enmities with the usual arguments immortalised in, “the dreary steeples..”. No great expectations here, is it any wonder our children leave and don’t come home again.