There was a gorilla in Raidio Uladh/Radio Ulster this morning, and it ambled into the Sunday Sequence studio, where it sat down and began scratching itself and eating fleas. None of the people there – presenter Audrey Carville, Chris Donelly, (Rev) Lesley Carroll, (Dr) John Kyle and (Dr) Eamon Phoenix – appeared to notice it, despite its size and noisy chewing.
The topic under discussion in the studio was how far we’ve come in acknowledging and respecting each other’s commemorations. Not surprising, I suppose, given that this is Remembrance Sunday. And no, Virginia, since this was radio, I don’t know who was and wasn’t wearing a poppy, although I’m pretty sure the gorilla wasn’t. Chris, Lesley, John and Eamon were all in agreement that we’d moved forward -and still had a way to go – in acknowledging and showing respect for each other’s commemorations. The year 1916 represented the Somme for unionists, the Easter Rising for nationalist/republicans. There were signs that respect was growing, with the presence of the Sinn Féin Deputy Lord Mayor and others at the Cenotaph ceremonies, and Chris I think it was suggested that there’d been much more coverage of the Easter Rising by the northern media than would have been the case in 1966. At one point Lesley rapped Chris’s knuckles gently for talking about ‘the North’ rather than Northern Ireland, but that aside there was a general air of harmony. The gorilla at this point was doing some heavy breathing and putting its fingers into its intimate parts but nobody seemed to notice him.
Then someone texted in and said that while republicans had acknowledged the events of importance to unionists, this hadn’t been reciprocated. Audrey Carville put this point to the panel – no, tell a lie. She somehow wrapped up the texter’s question in a way that made it something more general, less acute. At this point the gorilla stood up and began to jump up and down, making the studio floor shake. (Dr) John said that where respect was given by one tradition, it received respect in return. At this point the gorilla started to shriek but still no response.
I didn’t time the length of the discussion but I felt deep sympathy for the gorilla. Its full name is Equal Respect and it really deserved to get more attention. Take for example the attendance of republicans at the Cenotaph ceremonies. Did any unionist politician approach the deputy Lord Mayor afterwards and congratulate her on her gesture of reconciliation? I’ve got £50 that says no unionist politician did. And are there any plans by any unionist politician to attend a republican commemoration ceremony? I think you know the answer to that one too.
So why didn’t the panel and the presenter address the central question of give-and-take : participating in events of significance to each other? Because it’s an awkward one, because the reason unionist politicians don’t attend republican commemorations is because they see republicans who died in conflicts here as being In The Wrong. Whereas the men who died in the First World War “so we could enjoy freedom”, as John put it (yes, Virginia, pure poppycock indeed – WWI was about two Empires clashing and crushing millions of ordinary lives for nothing) – where was I? Right. Whereas the republican dead were, when all is said and done, a bunch of terrorists, and how could you in good conscience attend ceremonies for dead murderers and traitors?
So instead of confronting the Equal Respect gorilla, the panel tiptoed about, said positive things, accentuated the positive and yes, eliminated the negative. But tell you what: as long as that gorilla is not confronted, he’s going to stink the place out and have us all scratching and miserable.
I say all this with regret, because Sunday Sequence is a programme that in the past has addressed important social and political questions which others haven’t. But today, it concentrated on being nice. Bad decision.
Please stop trying to equate Remembrance Sunday with republican terror commemorations.
When are people going to waken up to the fact that this much ballyhooed Remembrance Sunday is a con job by successive British governments?
They talk about respect and remembrance of ‘those who died so we could have freedom’ – but how do they respect them?
When British soldiers come home from all their belligerent escapades, sent there by their government, are they looked after by that government?
Not a chance!
The government decided years ago that Joe Public should get the job of caring for the physically and mentally disabled, by setting up the British Legion.
This legion, year after year, gets volunteers to go out in the streets of the UK to beg – yes, I said, to BEG for charity to care for these unfortunates, whose sacrifices haven’t even earned the financial support of the government gangsters who sent them into harm’s way.
So how do these unfortunates feel about people having to beg on their behalf?
Is there anything more ignominious, how can they retain any self-respect for what they did in the name of queen and country?
For doing what they thought was their duty they are condemned to a life on the breadline, charity cases, dependent on handouts from the public – they are shamed forever!
“When are people going to waken up to the fact that this much ballyhooed Remembrance Sunday is a con job by successive British governments? They talk about respect and remembrance of ‘those who died so we could have freedom’ – but how do they respect them? When British soldiers come home from all their belligerent escapades, sent there by their government, are they looked after by that government? Not a chance! The government decided years ago that Joe Public should get the job of caring for the physically and mentally disabled, by setting up the British Legion.
This legion, year after year, gets volunteers to go out in the streets of the UK to beg – yes, I said, to BEG for charity to care for these unfortunates, whose sacrifices haven’t even earned the financial support of the government gangsters who sent them into harm’s way. So how do these unfortunates feel about people having to beg on their behalf? Is there anything more ignominious, how can they retain any self-respect for what they did in the name of queen and country? For doing what they thought was their duty they are condemned to a life on the breadline, charity cases, dependent on handouts from the public – they are shamed forever!”
That’s an entirely different point. And Remembrance Sunday isn’t a Government event.
“That’s an entirely different point. And Remembrance Sunday isn’t a Government event.”
Ye, and greedy Betty Windsor and her cabal have no influence whatsoever on any British government, nudge nudge wink wink. Doublespeak.
MT
That is the very simple answer. It is a false equivalence.
It would be more like asking both communities here to hold commemorations for the PIRA and the UVF/UDA.
Most people I think would have difficulty with that.
Possibly in years to come we can have some kind of commemoration day when we remember everyone who died during our troubles of the past 50 years,without any judgements being passed.
It would have to be a new and separate event unrelated to any current commemorations.
It is possible for people from all sides to commemorate the dead of the 2 world wars as they involved losses from a very different cause than internal conflict.
That is not to say it is simple and the way more recent conflicts involving British forces have also been absorbed into the commemoration is a problem certainly as regards the wearing of the poppy.
You make some good points, Gio, but seem to ignore the fact that money collected by the British Legion also goes to those ex-British soldiers who were involved in our troubles in the north, so if you wear a poppy, or contribute money to the RBL, you are de facto, supporting all their actions – something which would be very difficult or impossible for nationalists/republicans!
“You make some good points, Gio, but seem to ignore the fact that money collected by the British Legion also goes to those ex-British soldiers who were involved in our troubles in the north, so if you wear a poppy, or contribute money to the RBL, you are de facto, supporting all their actions – something which would be very difficult or impossible for nationalists/republicans!”
That’s not usually the reason given by nationalists and I don’t imagine nationalists generally wore poppies before the Troubles.
Also how does contributing to a charity that supports injured ex-servicemen mean one is supporting ‘all their actions’? Some dodgy logic in that claim.
Maybe it is you who needs to understand the word “logic”.
“Maybe it is you who needs to understand the word “logic”.”
Why do you suggest that?
Sherdy
I agree the poppy has become problematic over time and I can understand that giving to the RBL could be seen by some as tacit support for the more recent actions of the British forces.
But leaving those two issues aside I think people of all persuasions should (and do) remember the huge loss of life in the 2 world wars
Such commemoration should be a matter of personal choice and we really ought to stop using these occasions to batter each other.
“Please stop trying to equate Remembrance Sunday with republican terror commemorations”
Yet again I agree with you MT, there is no equivalence between the Poppy and Easter Lily/Republican Commemorations, the Poppy represents British Imperialism which claimed the lives (not to mention enslaved many) of millions of innocent people worldwide. The Easter Lily/Republican Commemorations represents the fight for freedom against that very same Imperialism. So, yes, there is no equivalence. One is very wrong (Poppy) and one is very moral (Easter Lily).
But of course we both know your trying (in vain) to reject equality MT. I’m sure you’ll be just as successful as political Unionism has been since the 1960’s in your attempt……
“Yet again I agree with you MT, there is no equivalence between the Poppy and Easter Lily/Republican Commemorations, the Poppy represents British Imperialism which claimed the lives (not to mention enslaved many) of millions of innocent people worldwide.”
The poppy doesn’t represent British Imperialism.
“The Easter Lily/Republican Commemorations represents the fight for freedom against that very same Imperialism. So, yes, there is no equivalence. One is very wrong (Poppy) and one is very moral (Easter Lily).”
They represent unrepresentative and anti-democratic nationalist death squads that had no.involvement in fighting against imperialism, restricting themselves to Ireland and continuing long after the Empire had ended.
“The poppy doesn’t represent British Imperialism”
Yes it does.
“They represent unrepresentative and anti-democratic nationalist death squads that had no.involvement in fighting against imperialism, restricting themselves to Ireland and continuing long after the Empire had ended”
Wrong again MT. This is becoming a habit of yours.
“Yes it does.”
It doesn’t.
“Wrong again MT.”
I wasn’t wrong previously so it’s not possible for me to be wrong again. On the contrary, I’m right.
Dia duit ar maidin Jude, a point I made several years ago, to a republican audience was, I live in northern Ireland, the northern half commences at Swords, so, all above is northern Ireland, I have no problem with that, why should those Donal cannot understand? Sorry Donal.
ORANGES and CHAPELS
To, erm, err is human, to forgive divine
This ER is inhuman,whose Ulster is nine
A poppy is accord
E-lily equals disord
One is silk chord, the other bailing twine.
Im afraid Perkin’s poetry goes over my head. For me Remembrance is a one-sided affair and in Ireland always will be as long as it is used to glorify past British wars.
Don’t worry, Joe. I think you’ll find Perkin agrees.
Funnily enough, there’s been a similar gorilla hopping all over this website for ages now – perhaps it’s a cousin.
mcgregor the poppy wearing boxer had plenty of irish support last night.
meanwhile gregory had his life ruined,when mcclean the non poppy wearer scored the winning goal for ireland.lol
“mcgregor the poppy wearing boxer had plenty of irish support last night”
McGregor hasn’t worn a poppy since, I believe. He knew how badly his core fans reacted to it and responded with a “F*ck you and f*ck the Queen”. Its important to understand many Irish people, me included, did have relatives who died in WW1 whilst in the British Army. To say they served out of “Loyalty” would be false, it was more for a wage and to see the World. Would I ever wear a poppy? Not in a million years. I remember my relatives with an Easter Lily, they didn’t fight for any foreign king, they fought for their own reasons.
“when mcclean the non poppy wearer scored the winning goal for ireland.lol”
And what a goal it was too, sent Ireland right to the top of Group D. Beating a strong team like Austria in Vienna, Ireland beating the All Blacks (not to mention thrashing Canada), Paddy Barnes and Jamie Conlan winning in boxing, Ireland U18 winning the coveted Victory Shield last week and McGregor making History at UFC, what a week for Irish sport!
And don’t forget Mark Downey (from Co Down) winning the gold medal in the points race in the European track cycling championships!
I also have a great grandfather who died in WW1 Ryan.
He didn’t fight out of loyalty or to see the world, but in the misguided belief that it would help achieve home rule and allow the Irish people to control their own destiny in return for fighting against fascism in europe and the Irish nationalist dream of finally having democracy.
The story of Thomas Kettle and his poem the gift of god sums up the feelings of most Irish who fought in WW1.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/inside-first-world-war/part-four/10484565/first-world-war-poetry-kettle.html
My grandfather fought and died along side unionists in the Ulster 36th, which contrary to popular opinion, the composition of which followed the male population in the north with over 30% being catholic.
As you know and as Tom Kettle realised before he died, they were fooled.
My great grandmother binned his medals which are lost forever and he was never spoken about in our family until recently when a cousin researched him.
I believe he was wrong to fight in WW1 and should instead have fought for Ireland.
“I also have a great grandfather who died in WW1 Ryan. He didn’t fight out of loyalty or to see the world, but in the misguided belief that it would help achieve home rule and allow the Irish people to control their own destiny in return for fighting against fascism in europe and the Irish nationalist dream of finally having democracy.”
And it would have done if it hadn’t been for Pearse and his clique and then SF.
“My grandfather fought and died along side unionists in the Ulster 36th, which contrary to popular opinion, the composition of which followed the male population in the north with over 30% being catholic.”
No it wasn’t.
“As you know and as Tom Kettle realised before he died, they were fooled.”
It’s unlikely that they were fooled. If Pearse and his clique hadn’t launched their anti-democratic rebellion, there would have been home rule.
“My great grandmother binned his medals which are lost forever and he was never spoken about in our family until recently when a cousin researched him.”
Shameful.
“At one point Lesley rapped Chris’s knuckles gently for talking about ‘the North’ rather than Northern Ireland”
Its important for Republicans not to take any “raps” on the knuckles, instead they should continue to say “the North” to make a point. Moving on doesn’t mean Nationalists have to change terminology or accept the illegitimacy of this failed state. The current Agreements are nothing more then stepping stones for Republicans, they aren’t even final agreements for the British Government, they know its simply buying relative “peace” for a few years. You cant make a success out of a failure like Narnia.
The media is largely ignoring the non-reciprocation from Unionism but they also tried to ignore Collusion too for a time but you can only ignore a big, smelly elephant in the room for a limited amount of time before the stink overwhelms everyone. Many media outlets and Unionists try to preach the lie that “both sides are as bad as each other”. This is not only in regard to “Moving Forward” but also in regard to sectarianism too. But of course this is nonsense. The bulk of sectarianism does come from the Unionist camp and the vast bulk of opposition to reciprocation, equality and moving forward comes from Unionism too. Just reading a few of MT’s comments alone gives you a general idea of the Unionist mentality, its backward, unintelligent, close minded and foolish. You can also sense a hatred too.
So what can Nationalism do? Nothing really. You cant have genuine peace and equality with a people who doesn’t want it with you, whether its because they hate our politics or our religion or our Irish heritage/background. I think we’re already seeing the cracks forming in SF’s patience with the DUP. Martin McGuinness came out and said that the DUP “Hate anything Irish” in regard to the Education Departments stance on Irish, which is clearly discrimination. God knows what the DUP is doing behind the scenes…..still nothing has been done about the allegations that Nelson McCausland and other senior DUP members met in an Orange Hall with a Housing Association in order to stop housing for Catholics in North Belfast…..
I personally think this outreach to Unionism is a waste of time, its been proven to be, that’s not just my opinion. I don’t oppose the fact SF/SDLP reached out to Unionism but I oppose pandering. That wont form genuine reciprocation. Indeed, I find engaging with most Unionists (not all) such a waste of time I don’t even bother replying to many of their replies on this blog, many are just so stuck in the past that they are incapable of change unless they have no other choice. SF/SDLP, I hope, are starting to learn that…..
PS: I think Nationalism itself should be co-operating more and building bridges, at least something positive would come from that. SF, SDLP, PBP and Independents all share a very close ideology. Outreaches to the Alliance Party/Greens could be positive too.
“Its important for Republicans not to take any “raps” on the knuckles, instead they should continue to say “the North” to make a point. Moving on doesn’t mean Nationalists have to change terminology or accept the illegitimacy of this failed state.”
But they have accepted its legitimacy.
“But they have accepted its legitimacy.”
I haven’t
No they haven’t. We do not accept the British colony established in six counties of Ireland as legitimate not to mention democratic.
“No they haven’t. We do not accept the British colony established in six counties of Ireland as legitimate not to mention democratic.”
You’re confusing the matter by writing in both the third and first persons.
For clarity I’m not referring to you, I’m referring to PSF.
Not really, just helping it through it’s death throes.
Maybe the Sunday sequence team could take some normal people into the studio sometime and leave the ‘experts’ to one side.