When Sinn Féin first went into power-sharing with unionists, Gerry Adams warned them it would be “a battle a day.” He was wrong. The battles haven’t been on a daily basis. But over the decades, it’s been a simmering distaste served on a daily basis.
You might say “Unionists had reason and more for their distaste” and you might have a case. When people have seen family members and neighbours shot, exploded, killed on a weekly if not daily basis, it seems forgivable that they might feel antagonism towards those they see as having inflicted the pain.
But let’s consider the Irish Civil War. It was waged for less than a year, during which somewhere between 1,000 and 4,000 people were killed. Neighbour killed neighbour, brother killed brother. Those who had fought side-by-side against the British now put their former comrades to the sword. In Ballyseedy, Co Kerry, nine republicans were strapped to a landmine which was then detonated.
I grew up in the 1940s and 50s. A regular magazine in our house was a humorous magazine, The Dublin Opinion. We also bought the Sunday Independent and the Sunday Press every week. Nowhere in these publications did I detect that a Civil War had even occurred, let alone left lasting bitterness. That’s not to say that people didn’t carry deep pain; but they moved beyond it to work with their fellow-countrymen to produce a state that was largely free of the bitterness one might have expected. That was just thirty years after the Civil War ended.
Here we are on the brink of 2017 – near to fifty years since the start of the Troubles. The contrast is stark. While the brutality of the Civil War was not forgotten, people found ways to rise above it and create a better future.
And us? If we want to be honest, we have failed and failed abysmally. No one can fault us for remembering and still feeling the terrible loss that so many families endured during the Troubles. But we can be faulted for failing to put these losses in a place where they don’t continue to divide neighbours and families. We may not engage in a battle a day but we continue to simmer with rage and resentment.
And one side is as bad as the other? Sorry – it would make me a more ‘respected commentator’ if I gave the Tweedledum-Tweedledee verdict. I’m not suggesting unionism hasn’t got reason for their simmering resentment, and some nationalists/republicans too. But unlike those who had to accept the legacy of the Civil War, we have allowed the past to deform our present and, I would anticipate, our future as well.
Will 2017 bring a change of heart? Will we accept the self-interest of reconciliation? Fan agus a fheiceáil – wait and see.
“When Sinn Féin first went into power-sharing with unionists, Gerry Adams warned them it would be “a battle a day.””
That was the DUP.
At the minute, its hard to tell the difference!
“But let’s consider the Irish Civil War. It was waged for less than a year,”.
Maybe this is the key. A lot easier to.move on from a year-long war, fought conventionally by two conventional armies, than thirty years of prolonged terror, characterised by people planting bombs in shops and pubs, pitting bombs under people’s cars.
It also no doubt helped that the bad guys in the civil war accepted defeat and even admitted they were wrong.
Probably another difference between the Civil War and the Troubles was that the Troubles happened during the television age when every atrocity was televised every night on the news.
Unless you were directly involved in the Civil War you may have hardly knew it was going on.
“Maybe this is the key. A lot easier to.move on from a year-long war, fought conventionally by two conventional armies, than thirty years of prolonged terror, characterised by people planting bombs in shops and pubs, pitting bombs under people’s cars”
MT, this is a theme we often see in your tweets. You seem to think “conventional armies” aren’t capable of terror or their terror is acceptable. You seem to think the Law has a monopoly on morality. In short, you seem to cut and shape your world view just so it complies with your beliefs.
If someone gets killed by the British Army or the IRA, its still the same result MT, it doesn’t make a difference. “Terror” has been committed FAR more by “conventional armies” than by paramilitaries. Have you ever seen photos of the victims of the atomic bombing of Nagasaki? No, trying to justified it doesn’t make it any better, its still terror. Have you seen the photos of British soldiers beheading Burmese people and holding up their heads? That’s terror too. I could go on.
You may talk about people planting bombs under cars and in shops here but you only talk of that mainly when the IRA or UVF did it. You like to pretend the British Army didn’t also do similar. Indeed the British Army, one of those “conventional armies” you speak of, also had a hand in the Dublin/Monaghan Massacre, the worst atrocity here. They also effectively ran the Unionist paramilitaries, using them as cannon fodder and fall guys at the same time. Again, I could go on about the “Bravest of the Brave” as Theresa May calls them, when they committed many other atrocities in other countries.
“It also no doubt helped that the bad guys in the civil war accepted defeat and even admitted they were wrong”
Define the “Bad guys” MT…..
“MT, this is a theme we often see in your tweets. You seem to think “conventional armies” aren’t capable of terror or their terror is acceptable.”
I don’t and have never said anything to suggest that I do. Please do not misrepresent people. Unlike you, my position is consistently in opposition to terror no matter who carries it out.
“You seem to think the Law has a monopoly on morality. In short, you seem to cut and shape your world view just so it complies with your beliefs.”
I don’t. On the contrary I apply my beliefs and standards to situations and then form.my view.
“If someone gets killed by the British Army or the IRA, its still the same result MT, it doesn’t make a difference. “Terror” has been committed FAR more by “conventional armies” than by paramilitaries. Have you ever seen photos of the victims of the atomic bombing of Nagasaki? No, trying to justified it doesn’t make it any better, its still terror. Have you seen the photos of British soldiers beheading Burmese people and holding up their heads? That’s terror too. I could go on.”
If you’re trying to say that the civil war involved as much terror than the troubles I’m afraid I disagree.
“You may talk about people planting bombs under cars and in shops here but you only talk of that mainly when the IRA or UVF did it. You like to pretend the British Army didn’t also do similar. Indeed the British Army, one of those “conventional armies” you speak of, also had a hand in the Dublin/Monaghan Massacre, the worst atrocity here. They also effectively ran the Unionist paramilitaries, using them as cannon fodder and fall guys at the same time. Again, I could go on about the “Bravest of the Brave” as Theresa May calls them, when they committed many other atrocities in other countries.”
The British Army wasn’t involved in the civil war.
“Define the “Bad guys” MT….”
Obviously it was the anti-Treaty side in the civil war and the various terror gangs during the Troubles.
” Define the “Bad guys” MT….”
Obviously it was the anti-Treaty side in the civil war and the various terror gangs during the Troubles. ”
Oh righty, so the side that rejected the threat of widespread terror from Britain if they didn’t accept the partition of their country is the ‘bad guys’?
The side that refused to be threatened by by a foreign terror government is the ‘bad guys’?
The side that refused to abandon the democratic wishes of the Irish people under threat of ‘terrible’ war(widespread terror and possibly genocide) is the ‘bad guys’?
Wow, you bring cowardly bullying to an all new level, congratulations.
“Oh righty, so the side that rejected the threat of widespread terror from Britain if they didn’t accept the partition of their country is the ‘bad guys’?”
The side that rejected the will of the people whom they purported to represent and decided instead to continue killing.
And the civil war wasn’t about ‘partition’.
“The side that refused to abandon the democratic wishes of the Irish people under threat of ‘terrible’ war(widespread terror and possibly genocide) is the ‘bad guys’?”
The democratic wishes of the people were to accept the Treaty.
“The democratic wishes of the people were to accept the Treaty.”
Under threat of British terror on a widespread scale if they didn’t accept a British treaty isn’t democracy is it? Maybe your kind of democracy but most civilised people would reject that idea.
“And the civil war wasn’t about ‘partition’.”
Eh yes it was. No partition no conflict. Simple really.
“Under threat of British terror on a widespread scale if they didn’t accept a British treaty isn’t democracy is it? Maybe your kind of democracy but most civilised people would reject that idea.”
The democratic decision was to accept the Treaty, taking into account the prospect of further war. Anti-Treatyites rejected that decision and sought to continue killing, this time their fellow countrymen, in opposition to that decision.
“And the civil war wasn’t about ‘partition’.”
“Eh yes it was. No partition no conflict. Simple really.”
Wrong. The civil war was fought over the failure to achieve a republic. The ‘oath’ was more of an issue than ‘partition’.
” The democratic decision was to accept the Treaty, taking into account the prospect of further war. ”
Yip, as I said, widespread terror by Britain was the alternative offer. Glad we agree. Progress.
“Yip, as I said, widespread terror by Britain was the alternative offer. Glad we agree. Progress”
I don’t think we are agreeing, unless you’re acknowledging that the anti-Treatyites disregarded the democratic will of the Dail.
Is that right Jude?
I thought they were still arguing and casting up murders more than 50 years on.
I was under the impression Sinn Fein were focussing on reconciliation to make sure we didn’t go the same route and hold on to the bitterness and resentment the way Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have.
Perhaps I have it wrong.
There weren’t able to go into government together nearly 100 years on when policy wise there is little between them and the offer to rotate positions was made by Fine Gael.
I guess not everyone has moved on.
Was it Collins who caused the civil war or Dev?
It was de Valera’s doing in my eyes.
“Was it Collins who caused the civil war or Dev?”
It was neither Jessica. The main cause of the Civil War was the split in the IRA over the terms of the treaty.
Neither Collins nor DeValera had full control of the IRA even during the War of Independence. The Dail Eirean and the IRA were separate entities and while they cooperated during the Anglo-Irish war the elected representatives in the Dail never had control of the IRA.
Collins was the closest link between them as he was (I think) the only member of both.
This is my understanding of it anyway.
I cannot see how anyone can blame Dev, as Scott said there was a split in the army, Collins helped create the split. He began building a new National Army from pro-Treaty IRA units, (you have to ask why he decided to unilaterally decided to do that), then In March 1922 the IRA called a convention and the majority repudiated the right of the Dail to dissolve the Republic. This was ignored and in reply in April an anti-Treaty IRA group under Rory O’Connor occupied the Four Courts, the centre of the courts system in Dublin. This had a positive result in that it led to Collins creating a pact with De Valera, to re-unite Sinn Fein and a similar initiative with the anti-Treaty IRA, which proposed joint operations against Northern Ireland.
So far so good, things were starting to move in the right direction, however the wheels came off again in the run up to the election in June 1922. the pact between pro and anti-Treaty sides broke down over the inclusion of the British monarch in the Free State’s constitution. At the election the pro Treaty group won a majority. That still did not trigger the war, that came after a number of events which started 10 days later. In London the B Special organiseer Gen H Wilson was shot dead by two IRA men, it was never proven who gave the order however it is likely to be Collins orders, I order to outrage the British, as Wilson was also an MP, in order to give him cover to attack the Four Courts. In the 1950’s McGrath, for instance, stated that it was Collins who was behind the assassination. The ploy worked, The British blamed the IRA group in the Four Courts and threatened Collins that they would attack the Four Courts, using the 6,000 British troops still in Dublin, if he did not do it. Secondly, pro-Treaty forces arrested an anti-Treaty IRA officer Leo Henderson and in response the Four Courts garrison abducted a Free State officer, JJ Ginger O’Connell. Michael Collins and the Provisional Government gave the Four Courts garrison a final chance to surrender and hand back O’Connell or they would attack the Courts. The ultimatum ran out and pro-Treaty troops opened fire on the Courts with artillery borrowed from the British on June 28, 1922. This action caused IRA units around the country to take sides and most, especially in the south, sided with the anti-Treaty faction, now headed by Liam Lynch. Eamon de Valera initially rejoined the IRA as an ordinary volunteer but later, in October 1922, set up a clandestine republican government to oppose the Free State.
The rest is history.
Thanks for that Croiteir.
We really do not know our own history enough. My children know more about world war 2, I had to explain that Germans were not bad people and that winston churchill was not a good person such is the education our children are receiving in schools.
Irish history is so complex, our children really need to be learning the reality of what happened and not a censored version.
Any wonder so many in the south don’t believe what went on in the north.
let the do,gooders who are paid to spout reconciliation leave their leafy suburbs and come and live along the barricades(peace walls now)nobody i know living along them want them moved.homes being attacked,unreformed police,orange parades pushed through all keep the fear alive.why would reconciliation be needed,is it all part of this new agreed ireland nonsense.
“fought conventionally by two conventional armies, than thirty years of prolonged terror, characterised by people planting bombs in shops and pubs, pitting bombs under people’s cars”
All wars, regardless of how they are conducted cost lives, folk need to accept that instead of spouting nonsense as if one war is lily white and another dark and evil.
“All wars, regardless of how they are conducted cost lives”
Obviously.
” folk need to accept that instead of spouting nonsense as if one war is lily white and another dark and evil.”
The civilised world over many decades has developed a moral and legal code of how armed conflict ought to be conducted, outlawing acts of terrorism and other war crimes. It is not ‘nonsense’ to point out the distinction.
It is concerning that you do not recognise this.
War is a dirty business, no matter how you come at it .Words like “conventional” or “unconventional” in connection to war are besides the point of war. It’s a filthy performance …just like it is currently waged in Aleppo . It is fought to win. People who would rather not be in it are caught up in it. Children who should know nothing of it are damaged physically and emotionally and are killed by it.It hardly matters how it is fought , once it starts. it’s not some gentlemanly sport, even though it professes to have a set of rules like some unholy game.. People kill each other, torture each other and worse. In Ireland it is fought and has always been fought , over fear and identity.That’s the root cause of it here and why it continues to rear its head every generation of so. Nearly a generation on from the Good Friday Agreement ,when a compromise was supposedly hammered out , the stain of it still persists.It’s not as if there were ever going to be any winners anyway.How could there be? The identities will always stay the same until people realise that we are all the same people with our small individual identities intact.
Politicians here have found it too easy to use fears to hide behind their own lack of inventiveness and vision.If anything they’ve proven that not only do they lack creative thinking for our future , but they’ve shown a political incompetence beyond parallel.
So far we have been manipulated into being ruled by politicians who have immersed us us in a litany of political scandals and we appear to be have no way of redress..We have arrived in a situation where the balance of power is deemed such an important aspect of our survival before war consumes us all over again that incompetence and political chicanery are allowed to run unabated at the very top of out local government. We have collectively managed to vote in a set of politicians who are unable to develop a viable future for us.
Prior to the suspension of Stormount at the very beginning of the past Troubles the ruling Unionist Party proved unable to run the place in a fair manner.in fact they ran it into the ground until the british government had to take control away . they didn’t want to attempt the Sunningdale solution so continued a period of irresponsibility until we had the Good Friday Agreement .
So far within this latest experiment , far from being able to make a shape of self-governance, there has been a growing list of scandals in which ministers appear to be unfit for purpose and yet still survive in power because we are unable , somehow to replace them.
1.We have the biggest piece of financial wizardry in the latest “Cash for Ash ” scandal which has our First Minister immersed in a potential £400,000000.00 loss to the tax-payer. Instead of immediate suspension as the person ultimately responsible for the debacle , we are forced to witness a drama of buck-passing as she gropes for someone else to scape-goat and blame .The fact is that the buck actually stops with her and she screwed- up..
2. Slightly below that in scale, we have the NAMA financial scandal which is still ongoing and which has already been the death- knell of at least one political career in Sinn Fein.It remains to be seen how the DUP come out of that one too.
3.We’ve had the last First Minister, Peter Robinson’s “muslim” scandal, where he insulted an entire community.
4.We are also currently experiencing the “Cash for the UDA” Dee Stitt scandal which has the current First Minister and the DUP in bed with terrorism and millions of pounds of our money. That has yet to be resolved.
5. Before that we had the Iris Robinson (First Minister’s wife) scandal which involved sex and money with a side order of attempts to “cure” gays of their birthright.
6. Then there was the the “Red Sky” scandal involving the DUP’s Stephen Brimstone ( who’s name may possibly pop up again in relation to other scandals although he has since gone to ground and has apparently left the DUP’s team.) That scandal has never been properly addressed.
There are other scandals to yet appear and some which have slipped my mind , but the bottom line is the incompetancy of our government in either the criminal creation of this series of scandals or their inability to properly cover their tracks when the situations are created . Is it criminal or is it simple incompetence? I’m not sure it matters what the answer is because the result is the same. .
So how are we doing so far?…Well not so well obviously …and then there’s that question of “reconciliation ” to muddy the waters. It’s difficult to be reconciled with seeming idiots who have caused so much hatred in the first palce , but who are also charging us a fortune for their incompetancy. People like that are always going to be hard to love , but we’ll have to try somehow.
John Hume consistently made this same point but in relation to a more terrible conflict in Europe. We are poor students
As a child of the 50’s, I do not remember much talk of the 2nd WW, yes I remember hearing of the American soldiers and their supply of stockings, saw the occasional army truck but that was about it. I did not hear about the Holocaust until I was in my 20’s. This was 25 years after the end of that war. Here in the southern part of this isle the media play a large and sinister part in assisting some politicians in using the victims of the troubles, for political ends and some “journalists” have made careers out of continual and on-going attacks against the very people who are trying to enable reconciliation.
The Beatles played in Berlin in 1960, 15 years after the end of the WW2. Is there anything to be learned from that, I wonder.
Sorry also heard about blackout curtains, rations & butter coming over the border.
(Fan go bhfeice muid a Jude)
It is high-time Sinn Féin brought their focus away from the troubles. It is enough to remember all those lost in the various conflicts at Bodenstown and on Easter Sunday. The fact of the matter is that anyone under 22 years of age were born after the first ceasefire and anyone under 30 were 8 or younger at the time. These are the people Sinn Féin need to get to vote for them if the party is to grow in the north. And for most of these people the Troubles are just a series of stories that they have heard about from older relatives. They are far-removed from the Troubles.
Sinn Féin and all pro-United Ireland parties need to speak in a tone that resonates with the youth of today. And they need to select candidates that young people are likely to vote for. What are the problems facing the youth today and how are our representatives tackling these issues? And how will a United Ireland agenda solve these issues? These are the messages we need to get out there.
I’m inclined to agree , Colman. For a lot of young people growing up ,there was not that same experience at all , unless it’s been kept alive by tales of terror and assorted myths and half-truths, within families.I know that my own children never sat down and asked me any questions about what life was like ” back in the day”. They may have picked up bits and pieces but in the end , they grew up with a very assorted selection of friends and new influences. from all kinds of cultural directions.They never seemed too interested in politics until recently , and a lot of that is to do with the current crazyness of Brexit and the likes of Trump which appear to have completely bamboozled a generation. It certainly makes them look afresh atever seem much invigorated by any talk of politics. what these politicians are actually doing and how it is affecting their future lives.Any friends they might have from the “protestant ” community or the multi-racial community, never seemed much interested in the divisions that others experienced.
They never had the radicalising and focusing experiences that some of us had in the 1960s or 1970s to make them stop and think until now. They were more interested in fashion and the like and their own little worlds. For example, they already have that semi-romanticised version of life back in the 1960s or even the 1970s where all the grimey bits about real-life have been edited out and only the shiny colourful clothes and music remains.Each generation does that and they do it to their parents’ story anyway. I wish now that I’d asked my parents more questions when they were alive about the small details of their lives , but relationships are never really like that . We remember bits and pieces and only the big events instead.
Sinn Fein will begin to lose potential voters if they cannot draw a line under the past and draw up hard designs and timetables for the future that doesn’t include a litany of past deaths from either side . Young people don’t care about the “struggle” in the past.They want to talk about what kind of future they might have.Also, if Sinn Fein continue to be joined at the hip to the dubious schemes of the ultra conservative DUP they will be coloured by that too. I think they already are. It’s a two-headed monster that needs to be sparated . One head is currently supporting the nonsense that the other is speaking. They’ll have to do better and in a more forceful way, even if this current project falls victim.All that anti-gay, anti muslim stuff doesn’t go unnoticed either….and then there are the scandals and the anti-culture “culture “aspects of the whole thing. The young people who are bright , notice that kind of thing and take note.If there was another party to vote for that’s where they’ll put down their X.
It is hard to see a way out of the coalition with the DUP however save taking a place on the opposition benches.
theres always the front door.tell them to knock the lights out on their way out.
Maybe they will have to knock the lights out in order to afford the £400,000,000 heating bill, Billy!
What I would like to see them do, is show they have the capacity to run a country and accept the mess the DUP have got us in and raise taxes significantly to sort it and ensure public services, infrastructure investment and social needs are as protected as possible but you simply cant make a screw up such as this and not be austere at the end of it.
It is the right of the electorate if they choose to take their vote elsewhere as a result for either or both parties. Sinn Fein may well be contaminated by their partners in government either way but that is politics. Running away could be even more disastrous.
so make the public pay twice for their mistakes,give social investment another 13million for community workers on top of the 60million,and thats not the half of whats going on,when the sdlp are in front calling for arlene to go whats that tell you.i think you could be right about the electorate taking their vote elsewhere.
I do think Arlene should go and the DUP grilled, along with Sinn Fein if need be.
There could be another election needed this is so serious.
But in the end, no matter what happens, the money has to be found somewhere and I doubt the DUP or their supporters will be handing over their wages so yes, tax rises are inevitable.
If either or both parties lose votes so be it. It is time the games stopped and politicians took their responsibilities more seriously and the electorate also. Perhaps this is a wake up call.
We can talk about forcing people to vote, what about forcing people we vote for to take their responsibilities seriously?
I don’t care if Sinn Fein lose votes, so long as it is over doing the right thing and not being implicated in what the DUP have been up to. If they are involved in this they are finished and I will give up on this shit hole country.
Distance lends detachment, Esteemed Blogmeister, a plain fact of perspective which left us down here in the Free Southern Stateen in a much more advantageous position to form a balanced opinion of the Dirty Thirty Years ‘War’.
Both Poilitically and above all Morally. That would be, hot under the collary Morally.
While youse north of the Black Sow’s Dyke had your Nordie noses plunged deep into the (cough) Trough of the Troubles.
One is not apportioning (a daarlin’ word, Joxer) blame here, EB, merely stating a factoid born of geography.
Perhaps the most vivid way to express both our Political and Moral Superiority is to do so through the medium of the movies.
We Southies are, are we not, uber- literate in the crafty art of the Silver Screen, having maintained one L or a continuous supply to the Motion Picture Industry from Leo the Lion of the Dublin Zoological Gardens to growl his way to glory as the MGM mascot all the way up to (gulp) The Lobster . The latter was shot in County Kerry as late year, which was possibly not half soon enough.
As recently as last week the exciting news broke that our premier/ only fillum studios, Ardmore Studios in Bray, County Wicklow and in whose heart our artistically-aware Government has a meaningful stake, is to be flogged in the open market-place. Reputable property developers have already expressed a high interest rate.
It is not known what sort of properties will be erected there in an imaginative move to alleviate the housing crisis. But The Perkin’s moola is on a, erm, Trailer Park.
The Handbook of Cinema Clichés is as good a way, and better than most, to illustrate our Morally and Politically (MAP) superior take on the Troubles. While we may have been (gasp) Standing Idly By (SIB) while our (gulp) Siblings were engaged in ‘War’ our inner selves were simultaneously a hectic back lot of barking director, dolly grips, best boys, stuntmen and figure-eight production assistants with clapperboards barking:
-Action ! Take Six and stick it.
Consider, f’rinstance, Cinema Cliché Number 255:
-An unarmed British policeman will always be able to persuade an armed criminal to put his gun down by telling him to ‘stop being silly.
The reality that it was essentially a ‘Police Operation’ rather than a ‘War’ game played by ‘silly buggers’ is what we have long known down here in the Rarefied Morally Superior Air of Eireland.
And which will go a long, long way from Castlereagh to here on our Peace Trainy way to, erm, Political and Moral Maturity.
Consider now, Cinema Cliché Number 119:
-Any police officer investigating a crime at a house will find a next door neighbour clipping her hedge who will be able to tell him everything he needs to know.
Nationalist Nordies of a Narky Nature, we Southies of Both Genders are that next door neighour clipping her hedge.
And now for Cinema Cliché 380:
-All rough neighbourhoods in the USA have three black vagrants warming their hands around a brazier in the street.
(For USA and ‘black vagrants’ substitute ‘Norneverland’ and ‘ vertical croppies’).
The term ‘keyboard warriors’ is a relatively recent coinage and is universally (i.e in the monochrome media) viewed as a debased currency. It wasn’t always thus.
Long before the term had actually been hatched the Free Southern Stateen was heaving with ‘keyboard warriors’ (oddly enough, in the dutiful employ of the monochrome media) who upchucked on the Chuckyheads. Or as they say in Motion Picture terminology: technicolour yawned..
Consider now Cinema Cliché 389:
-No struggling writer ever removes a sheet of paper from a typewriter by turning the rollers. Instead, he must simply rip the paper out and scrunch it into a ball. He also never uses a wastepaper basket but instead drops the paper on the floor.
Although that was then, and this is now, still, it can be difficult to leave old habits, not least, the old habit of heaving.
Take The Excitable Boy of The Unionist Times, as a random example. When his latest critically acclaimed tome ‘Modern Ireland in a 100 Artworks’ was shortlisted for Puke, oops, Buke of the Year it was universally tipped as the hot fav. As one disinterested reviewer aptly put it:
-Art is one of the best tools to oppose racist and homophobic arguments.
Quite.
Sadly (1) , and in an astounding turn up for the, erm, bukes, ‘Modern Ireland in a 100 Artworks’ by Fintan O Toole (for it is he!) failed to sweep the boards or even, indeed, win the Biggie.
Sadly (2) , if the Bookies and Punters alike had troubled themselves to consult with The Perkin’s inner Troubleshooter, they would have known before it was too late than NO buke with the title ‘Modern Ireland in 100 Artworks’ which did not include a particular pair of defining artifacts of the Modern Island of Ireland had a snowflake’s chance in Connacht of winning the Biggie:
-Frank McGuigan’s groundbreaking pair of white football boots.
So, why then where these Sine Qua Nons not included? Could it be – whisper it ! – that The Excitable Boy of The Unionist Times is still ripping out any reference to Nordie, even of the Non-pareil variety, scrunching it into a, erm, ball and dropping it on the floor ? Twenty, even Thirty years on !
One is but floundering in the realm of idle speculation here or hereabouts.
But, if there even a graineen of truthiness in the speculation, then, sadly (4), it is but another dismal example of collateral damage which we Downunder have suffered from the contamination of the Thirty Years Police Operation in Norneverland.
To conclude with Cinema Cliché Number 414:
-Real life soldiers simply say ‘sir’ when replyng in the affirmative to an officer. Movie soldiers shout ‘sir yes sir !’.
….and there’s me forgetting, Mighty Perk , that the original “Leo” was a resident of Dublin Zoo….ahhh memory…the oul trickster! Apparently some seven different “Leo” stand-ins acted the part over the years since 1924…but the Dub was the original MGM mascot.
It must have been an intolerable inconvenience having fellow Irishmen in the north of the country rise up against an apartheid Unionist state that considered them no more than second class citizens.
I am sure like most of your compatriots you must still be suffering from post traumatic stress down in the leafy burbs of Malahide or Howth. The daily news of death and destruction up north would definitely have kept you under the blankets for weeks,meanwhile your fellow citizens,Nordies soldiered on,the children constantly under stress while literally under attack even on their daily route to school endured it stoically but spare a thought for the “downunders” embarrassed by it all,whatever it was,I’m sure unless you lived it you would never truly understand it,like trying to write fiction from a bedroom you have never had the courage to leave.
It is very easy to say we should all move on.
But it has to be on an even playing field
Many in the north KNOW that the british state murdered, terrorised and assisted loyalists to murder and we cannot move on until this truth is out there and the cover up is gone.
I want nothing to do with any united Ireland until this happens.
Society here will not move on until this truth is out there. That is a reality.
“It must have been an intolerable inconvenience having fellow Irishmen in the north of the country rise up against an apartheid Unionist state that considered them no more than second class citizens.”
If there was apartheid it was caused mainly by the RC Church and its adherents who established their own separate social pillar, with segregated schools, sports, youth organisations etc
Stormont provides gainful employment for many people and is a great revenue stream for the party.
Letting the DUP be the DUP seems to result in one embarrassing cockup after another scandal.
It is also funding the establishment of essential trade relationships with global decision makers and world leaders.
Something the SDLP haven’t twigged onto yet with Colum Eastwoods vow to never set foot in the Whitehouse while Trump is in it.
Interesting to see of he snubs an invitation for St Patricks day or sends someone else instead, either of which is hardly going to go down well.
So in many ways, Stormont is also a training ground. Young column will learn to think before making such boastful and rash declarations and the DUP will eventually be given the red card by the electorate for treating devolved government within the UK, which unionism wanted, with such consistent contempt and perhaps that lining supporters money through corrupt schemes doesn’t pay in the long run.
It is also giving the people here an essential education in what it is going to cost to maintain partition and run a 6 county state. Tax rises where inevitable anyway, we are 2 billion in debt already to cover wages for public sector which has run out or is about to, so while the softly softly approach of voluntary exit is reducing costs, we will need to borrow yet more for this.
The DUP will have been given an ultimatum by Sinn Fein, to get this amount down as far as possible or we go back to the polls.
Once they get it reduced which will be ironically through EU legislation which protects from such foo-pahs by allowing reasonable thresholds be set, so it can be cashed in at reduced levels to the applicants will still be covered but will not profit from it – and this final value will play a factor in what tax increases will be required. I don’t see how they can be avoided though. It has already started with rates increases and changes to business parks where small businesses could pay rates within their rent being scrapped and now will be paying rent and rates.
On the positive side, many people on both sides of the border will be getting a great insight into governance and administration. something essential if Sinn Fein are to lead a new Ireland and replace Fine Gael and Fianna Fail as Ireland main political party. Where we should have been if democracy had not been denied and partition implemented instead.
I have no issue with Sinn Fein using wages or money directed to the party that is legitimate, being used to fund research or all island manifestos or whatever.
What I would consider to be unforgivable is corruption such as allowing businesses to benefit from public money, legitimate or not if it is harmful to the people.
That would make them no better then Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and set a new Ireland back decades.
“I have no issue with Sinn Fein using wages or money directed to the party that is legitimate, being used to fund research or all island manifestos or whatever.
What I would consider to be unforgivable is corruption such as allowing businesses to benefit from public money, legitimate or not if it is harmful to the people.”
What about using public money to fund a phantom rsearch company that never did any research? Any issue with that?
“What about using public money to fund a phantom research company that never did any research? Any issue with that?”
If it was abuse of power then yes, it should be reported to the police or PPS and they should decide if there was wrong doing going on and if so action taken.
Just as I believe if there was wrong doing now, the police should decide if fraud or criminality has taken place.
Such things cannot be swept under the carpet and police scrutiny has to be involved.
Northern Ireland will never change if the one side that exercised total power over an oppressed minority for so long still holds on to their apartheid halcyon dream of supremacy ,subjugation and Britishness exhibited from every town hall,police station,government building including the street sweepers hut etc,etc.
The world has moved on,there are clashes of civilisations,possible European disintegration,revolutions sprouting up everywhere but the Unionists desperately cling on by their finger nails to days of Empire and entitlement.The grey steeples might still be there but the demographic has changed so much as to make the status quo unthinkable,undesirable and totally unacceptable.
“Northern Ireland will never change if the one side that exercised total power over an oppressed minority for so long still holds on to their apartheid halcyon dream of supremacy ,subjugation and Britishness exhibited from every town hall,police station,government building including the street sweepers hut etc,etc.
The world has moved on,there are clashes of civilisations,possible European disintegration,revolutions sprouting up everywhere but the Unionists desperately cling on by their finger nails to days of Empire and entitlement.The grey steeples might still be there but the demographic has changed so much as to make the status quo unthinkable,undesirable and totally unacceptable.”
Eh?
MT, do you believe that Britain has a moral or legal right to interfere in any part of this island? If you do, then justify it. If you don’t how can you condemn those who struggle against it? A simple,one word answer will do, if that is the best you can manage.
“MT, do you believe that Britain has a moral or legal right to interfere in any part of this island? If you do, then justify it. If you don’t how can you condemn those who struggle against it? A simple,one word answer will do, if that is the best you can manage.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “Britain” “interfering in any part of this island”. If you mean Great Britain, it is an island – an inanimate object incapable of “interference”. If you mean the UK, Northern Ireland is part of the UK so by definition the UK cannot be interfering in itself.
Can I point out the troubles started 50 years ago with the killings by the UVF, it took a lot of provocation and outrages by both the unionist state and unionist paramilitaries before the nationalists started to firstly defend their homes and then take the war to the unionists and the British supporters.
“Can I point out the troubles started 50 years ago with the killings by the UVF, it took a lot of provocation and outrages by both the unionist state and unionist paramilitaries before the nationalists started to firstly defend their homes and then take the war to the unionists and the British supporters.”
The consensus among historians is that the Troubles began in August 1969. The UVF murders in 1966 were unrelated.
There is no consensus that the killings in 1966 were unrelated, quite the opposite.
That is a lie or mistruth which you like to point out.
How can the UVF killings in 1966 have had no bearing? In fact, these killings were inspired by Paisleys forming paramilitary groups and hard line approach causing tensions in the UUP who saw him getting gradually closer in the elections to taking their place which he succeeded in in January1970.
UVF links to the UUP surely helped form catholic opposition through civil rights movements and even the BBC believe events in October 1968 in Derry played a major part in the start of the conflict. Do you think the 1966 killings by the UVF had no bearing on the minds of Catholics who tool part in 1968?
It was unionism that started the troubles before there was an IRA MT. Accept the truth. Johnny Bell would be proud of you.
“There is no consensus that the killings in 1966 were unrelated, quite the opposite.”
There is a consensus among historians that the Troubles began in August 1969.
“That is a lie or mistruth which you like to point out.”
It’s neither a lie nor a mistruth.
“How can the UVF killings in 1966 have had no bearing?”
Because they were shortlived and had no direct bearing on later events. The Troubles began as a result of civil unrest caused by the response and counter-reaponse to the civil rights protests.
“In fact, these killings were inspired by Paisleys forming paramilitary groups and hard line approach causing tensions in the UUP who saw him getting gradually closer in the elections to taking their place which he succeeded in in January1970.”
No they weren’t. Paisley didn’t stand for election until 1969.
“UVF links to the UUP surely helped form catholic opposition through civil rights movements and even the BBC believe events in October 1968 in Derry played a major part in the start of the conflict. Do you think the 1966 killings by the UVF had no bearing on the minds of Catholics who tool part in 1968?”
I see you point out that the BBC doesn’t regard the UVF murders as the start of the Troubles.
“It was unionism that started the troubles before there was an IRA MT. Accept the truth. Johnny Bell would be proud of you.”
The IRA existed from 1919. The Troubles began in 1969.
Samuel Devenny was murdered by the RUC in April 1969, was this not part of the troubles either?
“Samuel Devenny was murdered by the RUC in April 1969, was this not part of the troubles either?”
As I said, most historians consider the Troubles to have begun in August, therefore most would say no.
However, there are some historians who consider that they began in October 1968, so those would say yes.
But most relevant to this is that the killing of Devenny was nothing to do with the UVF 1966 murders.
Also, it is very unlikely that Devenney was murdered.
“Do you think the 1966 killings by the UVF had no bearing on the minds of Catholics who tool part in 1968?”
Something ‘being in the minds’ of people doesn’t mean it was the start of the Troubles. The IRA 1956-62 was in the minds of Protestants who thought the civil rights movement was an IRA front. That doesn’t mean the Troubles began in 1956.
The troubles began when the British government put a gun to the head of the Irish people and threatened terrible war on all the people of Ireland if they didn’t agree to their demands to reject democracy and to partition their country. Going by past actions the British government was threatening widespread murder and starvation culminating in genocide of Irish people.
This British terror ultimatum was the catalyst for everything that occurred afterwards. No British state interference in Ireland then there would be no violent response from Irish people. It’s really that simple.
“The troubles began when the British government put a gun to the head of the Irish people and threatened terrible war on all the people of Ireland if they didn’t agree to their demands to reject democracy and to partition their country.”
No they didn’t.
“No they didn’t.”
Yes they did put a gun to the head of the Irish people and threaten terrible war on all the people of Ireland. Lest we forget.
“Yes they did put a gun to the head of the Irish people and threaten terrible war on all the people of Ireland. Lest we forget.”
I think you’re referring to 1921. We’re discussing the recent Troubles.
“As I said, most historians consider the Troubles to have begun in August, therefore most would say no.”
“Most historians” – What historians have said this? And provide me with where they said this, please.
A fair question. To hand I have Tom Hennessey’s HIstory of Northern Ireland.
I may try and cite some others if I get time later.
But the point could equally be made by saying that few historians consider the Troubles to have begun in 1966.
As well as Hennessey
Paul Dixon, Northern Ireland since 1969
Keith Jeffery, The Divided Province
Daniel Williamson, Anglo-Irish Relations in the Early Troubles 1969-72
David McKittrick and David McVea, Making Sense of the Troubles
Caroline Kennedy-Pipe, The Origins of the Present Troubles in Northern Ireland
” Yes they did put a gun to the head of the Irish people and threaten terrible war on all the people of Ireland. Lest we forget.”
I think you’re referring to 1921. We’re discussing the recent Troubles. ”
Eh, in case you haven’t noticed they are inextricably linked. Lest we forget.
“Eh, in case you haven’t noticed they are inextricably linked. Lest we forget.”
Untrue. The one didn’t necessarily or directly follow from my the other.
” Untrue. The one didn’t necessarily or directly follow from my the other. ”
Eh?