Your humble scribbler had an interesting day yesterday – I was down in Dublin at the ‘Towards a United Ireland’ conference held in the Mansion House by Sinn Féin, to mark the centenary of the meeting of the First Dail.
The conference consisted of two discussion panels which didn’t really discuss with each other but responded to questions from the chair person. Most of those speaking – Brian Feeney, Matt Carthy, Mary Lou McDonald and others – were either republicans or sympathetic to the republican perspective. The exception was Alex Kane, who argued that a border referendum would be decided by people’s response to the question “Who are you?” (Yes, Virginia, I’m not sure what that means either). He went on to argue that the outcome of a border poll, certainly in a few years’ time, would be decided by the 15-20% of voters who are persuadable either way.
Brian Feeney saw Irish reunification as inevitable, given the population movement towards a Catholic majority in this state (which, like it or loathe it, translates very largely into nationalist/republicans). And he compared the coming change to the time when Jimmy Carter replaced Lester Maddox as Goverenor of Georgia. That state was deeply racist, as was Maddox. Carter’ s inauguration speech essentially told the white racists that the game was up. Likewise, Feeney saw the deep entrenchment of a fearful unionism here being followed by a collapse in their position.
Given that Martin McGuinness, one of the pillars of republicanism in Ireland, had just retired from active politics, the mood at the conference was strikingly upbeat. I don’t think anyone leaving the Mansion House would have been in any doubt that republicans believe they are on the right side of history and that their day may not yet have come but it won’t be long now. Yes, they would say that, indeed, Virginia; but I’m convinced this wasn’t an act.
One final point: given my appalling record on predicting events, I’m a little hesitant to comment on the person who gave the conference’s closing address, Michelle O’Neill. But if she isn’t nominated as Martin McGuinness’s replacement this week, I will be very, very surprised.
“The exception was Alex Kane, who argued that a border referendum would be decided by people’s response to the question “Who are you?” (Yes, Virginia, I’m not sure what that means either).”
If I may be so bold…
I neither wish to speak for Mr. Kane nor did I hear his speech (although he has been publishing the welcome he received on his Twitter account), but if this question formed the basis of his argument about the outcome of any border poll then I think I can say that it is a question which resonates with me. Odd, though, Jude, that you don’t seem sure what he means.
Isn’t the whole Irish question about who we think we are? Be it our understanding of our nationality, the direction of our loyalty, our understanding of culture and nationhood, the past and heritage with which we identify.
British, Irish, Celt, Gael, Ulster, Scots, Angle – this is where we might begin; but in the present context we might add, Europhile, Unionist, United Irelander; and we might add secular, religious, liberal, conservative, or socialist, capitalist and so on.
And what is most interesting is how the mix of these identities might affect the decision in the polling booth.
Might an otherwise British voter vote for a United Ireland due to a preference for the EU; might a Irish Celt and Eurosceptic (admiring the English for their national courage) vote ‘Unionist’ in the hope of a truly independent united Ireland later down the line; might a secular Ulster-Scot admiring Scottish Nationalism seek a new relationship between Ireland and Scotland?
Who knows?
And of course it could just mean that Mr. Kane thinks that the Irish question is primarily one of cultural and national identity rather than economics or wider global movements.
So, maybe, Jude, the question at the end of all of this is, “Who are you, Mr. Collins?”, and perhaps you’d need to know the answer to that before you voted us out of the Union.
I suspect, though, you already know who you are, nationally.
Thanks for that, PF – and you can call me Dr Collins ; ) .. I think your comment makes it clear that the question ‘Who are you?’ has such a multitude of possible answers, it means really nothing. Add to which everyone has multiple identities. I am a son, a father, a grandfather, a husband, a pensioner, an Omagh man, a Tyrone man, the most sectarian journalist Nelson McCausland has ever met …And so it goes. I think maybe the question is “Would you prefer to be part of a united Ireland or to remain as part of the UK?’ That gives rise to lots of questions too, of course. Finally, I think Alex tends to underplay the role of economics in all this. If the average unionist was told and firmly believed ‘You and your family will be better off by £5,000 a year’ ( hypothetical money I know), I’d be surprised if that didn’t figure pretty large in their decision-making.
“I think Alex tends to underplay the role of economics in all this. If the average unionist was told and firmly believed ‘You and your family will be better off by £5,000 a year’ ( hypothetical money I know), I’d be surprised if that didn’t figure pretty large in their decision-making.”
All very focussed on convincing the average unionist Jude.
I wouldn’t question the economic sense of it all, but and you may also call me a whinger if you choose, but I am not the only nationalist who will not be forgetting 2016 in a hurry.
Dr. Collins (should I take my shoes off as well?),
“I think your comment makes it clear that the question ‘Who are you?’ has such a multitude of possible answers, it means really nothing.”
I rather think it means more than nothing.
Your academic achievements suggest that you are perfectly capable of understanding that the “multitude of answers” might reasonably connote a multitude of possible influences on the political question, which might find their focal point, for the first time, in a polling booth offering such an irrevocable outcome – but perhaps it’s the thought that an otherwise culturally Irish nationalist might vote to maintain the Union that sticks in the throat – or perhaps it’s the idea that the Union might offer greater financial security than a United Ireland (it certainly did until money from the European Empire flowed in) – and perhaps that’s why you project the question of economic loyalty onto ‘the average unionist’?
Personally, though, I wouldn’t be tempted to exchange my identity for a few pieces of Euro (interesting, isn’t it, that you used Pounds Sterling?).
And I am sure you also understand Peter that the focal point for such a decision would not be in the polling booth but during the referendum debate that would need a few years to gather sufficient information to allow everyone to make an informed choice.
As for your identity, unionists were happy to deny our identity, why should we care about yours going forward or even not simply aim to totally eradicate it over time when the numbers change?
Plenty of people gloated on this site that unionism should not even entertain a discussion on unity as it would be seen as defeat.
That about sums up the whole attitude of people with your identity to power sharing Peter.
But are you seriously under the delusion your identity is somehow safe or even valued in this pathetic little 6 county state?
Without Irish unity, unionism is guaranteed to be heading into a permanent electoral minority and thanks to the antics of the DUP that is not going to be easily reversed.
So, with the position the DUP has left you in, do you feel your identity would be more securely protected in a 32 county Ireland with a better relationship with Britain and where you could have the option of an electoral pact with people who may yet still have some respect for your identity or as a permanent minority where your identity is associated with sectarian bigotry, corruption, arrogance and anti Irish, which the DUP so eloquently taught us just how to abuse a majority to get their own way?
Jessica
“…the focal point for such a decision would not be in the polling booth but during the referendum debate…”
That wasn’t really the point I was making, but yes, it is a valid one.
“why should we care about yours going forward”
I’ve never asked you to be concerned with my identity.
“But are you seriously under the delusion your identity is somehow safe”
You should already know that I am one of those Unionists who consider the Union to be at risk – I am under no such delusion that Northern Ireland will continue – and frankly, I expect it won’t.
“even valued in this pathetic little 6 county state?”
I don’t expect that those who wish to see the end of Northern Ireland value my identity.
“thanks to the antics of the DUP that is not going to be easily reversed”
I my opinion, the DUP have done more to weaken the Union than Nationalism or Republicanism.
“do you feel your identity would be more securely protected in a 32 county Ireland with a better relationship with Britain ”
Again, you already know that my preference is a United Ireland in a United Kingdom.
And you already know that my preference would have been for a United Ireland in a reformed United Kingdom over an EU I have no love for.
Not any more though.
I saw your response in support of MTs refusal to accept unionism were equally responsible for the violence and that it was not one sided.
Well done, you have restored my view that I would never trust any unionist under any circumstances.
Whatever the future Ireland holds, must be based on the principals of the Easter proclamation, not the lies and deceit, cover ups and manipulation britain brings into the equation.
And while I know Irish unity would be better for everyone economically, especially with free trade and better relations east west. Unlike some, like you, I would not put money above having a country of my own that I can respect. That has to come first.
All ties with england must be severed and a new Ireland formed before we can even start to talk about relations between these islands.
In this decade of centenaries, Ireland is going to have some tough decisions to make to avert making the same mistakes we made in the past.
Really, is that what I said?
If we’re that fickle, we’ll never make progress.
“If we’re that fickle, we’ll never make progress.”
I think we have flogged the old progress horse to absolute death Peter.
I want nothing more to do with you, unionism, Britain or even the jokers in the Dail.
Too little, too late, if only… should be our epitaph
In answer to your opening question – YES.
Do you want to add an exclamation mark or emoji to that last comment?
I mean, it’s crying out for one?
” the most sectarian journalist Nelson McCausland has ever met …”
Don’t know why but I always laugh when I read that comment on Jude’s profile. It just goes to show that even Oxford University standard education has done nothing to widen the narrowness of Nelsons views…..
The same is true for the average nationalist,republican or undecided voter.
If they were sure they would be that much (£5000) better off it would undoubtedly help some decide they would settle for the status quo.
Where is that figure coming from?
“The same is true for the average nationalist,republican or undecided voter.
If they were sure they would be that much (£5000) better off it would undoubtedly help some decide they would settle for the status quo.
Where is that figure coming from?”
No ones disputing that Gio. But I’m pretty sure people who live in NI lag behind in terms of wages compared to England or the Republic. According to Economist David McWilliams the average wage in the south is almost double what it is in the North. Of course we’re bound to see a slide in wages when Brexit takes effect and even Westminster says it’s going to effect us more than any other region in the UK.
I wonder if the south had to endure a conflict over partition the way we had to in the north, would they be so adverse to unity today?
And before you say everyone there wants unity, the majority support Fine Gael and Fianna Fail who make it crystal clear what type of Ireland they want.
26 counties first, 6 county second or even third rate Irish in that bit.
Twitter conversation:
Ryan: Dont forget about us in the north Michael?
Michael: We Wont
Michael (thinks to self): for fucks sake, will you lot just piss away off and leave us alone to get on with the important business of running the country.
@ Ryan who wrote “even Westminster says it’s going to effect us more than any other region in the UK”.
England and Wales can make a unilateral decision based on numerical superiority to harm Ireland as a whole and Scotland.
Yet there appears to be no legal redress or comeback – Just ” lie down and get over it”.
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/01/21/theresa-may-and-hard-brexit-scotland-ireland-and-northern-ireland/
Perhaps he meant that a border referendum would be decided by whether or not people wanted to return to being asked “Who are you?” each time they crossed the border?
Was there any discussion Jude, on why the southern establishment weren’t doing more to reach out to everyone north of the border just in case they may allow the SOS to call a border poll in the first place?
Or what to tell the growing number of people who feel like we are being pissed on from somewhere, but are just not so sure about who it is that is doing the pissing?
Again you’re on whinging about the Free State, sorry Jessica, I myself agree wholly, in my own experience, dealing with senior Free State politicians, of more than one party, they are scared the occupied territory will upset their gravy train.
Imagine if we even got Seanad seats proportional to our numbers, not only would the unionists have a blocking capacity in the Oireachtas but, poor Free Staters would have to endure their hatred, on every legislative issue.
Perhaps UDI was not such a bad idea?
Not sure if I understood that Mark.
Are you saying I am wrong to be whinging about the free state and I don’t just mean their politicians.
Nothing you have said there makes me want to support a united Ireland or stop whinging about them
Sorry Jessica, I’m stating the fact, the ordinary people of the Free State would proudly support re-unification, the economic and political elite, with one exception, are frightened of such, threat rather than opportunity is how they view it.
One day I’ll publish what I collected, certain political leaders will have a lot of explaining to do.
One day? Why not today?
Jessica, I attended said conference and though it was tentatively touched upon, The glaring question of the south’s attitude to the North barely got a mention. Like you, I feel that the attitudes in the south to the question of a UI is the biggest obstacle to reunification for decades.
Why do you think that is the case Gearóid?
only half the people vote.whats going to convince them to vote in any border poll.
Only half the people vote in most places so that is irrelevant billy.
Only 30% vote in Wales , it doesn’t really matter if people vote or not. I would be totally against forcing people to vote.
However, your question is valid.
I know the economic benefits of unity, not because responsible government gave me the information to make an informed choice I might add, but the attitudes of Dublin in particular has left me considering even if there was an economic advantage, do I really want to be united with a people who don’t give a shit about me?
Are northerners the worthless trashcan Irish, the second rate losers who can be treated with disdain because we are so desperate for Irish unity that the south can treat us like shit and know we will still beg for acceptance in their free state.
Now brexit risks hurting their pockets, they may well under those circumstances start to show more of an interest.
The question I am asking is not who I am, but whether even if it hurts all of our pockets, why should I not just tell them to go fuck themselves. Too little too late. The harsher brexit is on the south the happier I will be.
Can someone answer me that?
Because for centuries we have fought and died been starved, subjugated, slaughtered, sent to penal colonies, starved again, by the most evil regime the world has ever seen. We are, (still) a proud and undefeated people. Irish unification is just over the next hill, it’s so close I can smell it. And because you know in your heart of hearts it’s what you want, still.
“Because for centuries we have fought and died been starved, subjugated, slaughtered, sent to penal colonies, starved again, by the most evil regime the world has ever seen.”
My goodness, Britain was ‘evil’ and more evil than the Nazis, Pol Pot, the Spanish, Mao, Genghis Khan, apartheid South Africa or any other regime you care to name.
Competitive victimhood by association again.
It’d a wonder you’ve managed to survive and access the Internet.
Britain has caused more damage around the world than all of those put together MT.
I might not like the EU or want to be part of it, but it is warming on me thanks to people like you.
It is time Ireland made a choice, back the UK or back the EU and take the gloves off.
The easier options are not always the best.
The appeal of seeing Britain falling flat on its arse is becoming more and more attractive to me whatever the consequences.
“Britain has caused more damage around the world than all of those put together MT.’
How do you define and measure damage?
What percentage voted in the gfa referendum?
Thanks for that Jude, and, in response, two points.
1) from the perspective of Constitutional law, one goes up to the Capital, though from Omagh you should simply have stopped in Armagh.
2) Honest Abe, the man who sought to end slavery in the United States, or, prevent it’s spread to the newer western State’s, was of course a Republican, not a Democrat, racism was, and is, evident in Georgia but, Carter’s party maintained it.
My own hope for the DFM replacement would be, continuum, an ex solider to keep dissent in check, for now, can you think of one?
A United Ireland is inevitable, the question is when. Well I certainly cant be specific as to when but if I had to give my own, modest, prediction then it would be within the next 7-15 years. If Brexit had not have happened then I would’ve said at least 15-20 years, maybe a little longer but that’s just my estimate, it could be sooner or later.
I know many Unionists ask why is Irish Unity inevitable. Some are genuinely interested as to why republicans say its inevitable, while some are deliberately sceptical because it goes against their politics. Well its quite simple why Irish Unity is inevitable:
1. The Northern state has failed. The discrimination, the sectarianism, the violence, the constant political difficulties, etc have all made this state a failure. Its not sustainable.
2. The Northern state makes absolutely no economic sense. The North’s economy is a basket case. Its went through decades upon decades of neglect by Westminster, being described as “Sovietized” due to its dependence on public sector jobs (again, due to Westminster neglect). Economist David McWilliams points out that in 1917 just four counties of Ireland (Antrim, Armagh, Tyrone and Down) accounted for 80% of all of Ireland’s exports. Today that’s dramatically different. The 6 counties of the North account for less than 10% of all of Ireland’s exports. The South exports around £100 billion worth of goods per year and growing. The North just exports around £6 billion. The average wage in the South is almost DOUBLE what it is in the North today. McWilliams says the Union has been a “disaster” for the North. He then says that the Good Friday Agreement was meant to produce a “peace dividend” for the North but in reality that dividend has went to the South.
3. A shrinking Unionist population and a growing Nationalist population. It doesn’t take Einstein to work out which way each group is going to vote. I think Unionist newspapers have done a lot to deceive Unionists into believing there is little support for Irish Unity. The polls they run are akin to the poll done by Unionist political parties on the flying of the flag at Belfast City Hall just before the Flag Protests. The DUP/UUP ran a poll and asked the opinion of participants at the, wait for it, “Ulster Day” Celebrations. Yes they asked the opinion of people, Unionists, celebrating Ulster Day in Belfast City Centre on the flying of the flag and then tried to claim it was a “balanced” poll lol
But lets just say there was no Untied Ireland, lets just say in a vote the South rejected Irish Unity (recent poll showed 65% of the South support Irish Unity, 20% opposed it, 15% undecided) and it couldn’t happen. Despite no Irish Unity, the Northern state would still then fall into Nationalist control. Extremely few Catholics vote Unionist, indeed in a BBC poll done in 2013, which Noel Thompson presented to UUP MLA Danny Kennedy, 0% of Catholics would vote UUP (yes 0%) and 1%, just 1%, would vote DUP. That 1%, by the way, doesn’t account for margin of error, so that could be 0% for the DUP as well lol.
Irish Unity is going to happen because it makes social and economic sense. Unionists have nothing to fear from it as Catholics had to fear from the state of Northern Ireland. Indeed I wouldn’t be surprised if Unionists just linked up with Fine Gael anyway.
PS: I like Michelle O’Neill but I don’t think she would be my first choice to replace McGuinness. I really like the idea of Gerry Adams coming back up North or Pearse Doherty.
Does the Army Council – sorry Ard Comhairle – vote on McGuinness’ successor? Is it a simple majority? How do you get your name on the ballot paper? Or is it just confirmed by the laying on of hands by Il Presidente?
Irish unity is certainly much more inevitable now than it was forty/fifty years ago when the so called Troubles got under way.Unionists actually made the idea of re-unification wholly viable and continue to do so in their current political outworkings.Had they had the whit to make life a little more bearable for everyone and not taken the simple demand for civil rights for everyone not as an appeal for fairness but an attack, they might gave had the savvy to stave off the inevitable .That wasn’t going to happen when you declare outright war on half your population and begin to intern them for asking hard questions too loudly .We’ve all had enough of that. now we’ve tried to have a go at a shared /joint government . Man ….was it ever tried ? That didn’t work with them either so there’s really nothing left to prove .Government with unionism is a sticky , deceitful, scandalous affair. They seem incapable of change or fairness even twenty years after the last conflict.
They will gradually become the minority so it will simply be a case of gradually outvoting them and explaining the economic possibilities . Ryan has some interesting figures right there and if they are even partly true , the future of current unionism would be better served united with the rest of Ireland.if they remain a homogeneous group (and that could easily change within a united Ireland), they would have a sizeable voting bloc in any new goverment…especially if it was some kind of federal set-up.They’d be well made-up.
As to Alex’s question of “Who are you?”….well that is very open ended isn’t it ?Who is the man living across the street in that house with the green door? Who are any of us , anyway? There’s not one of us the very same as the man next door. .We are all different with different interests, different ideals. There are even some current republicans down south who might love to have a bit of Irish royalty ….a nice wee queen sitting on a throne ….just like Her Maj in England . Do you think that’s crazy? I’ll bet you it is the truth, though.
So who are you? Let’s get this straight again .We live on an island called Ireland , so we are therefore Irish…no matter what else we might want to cobble on that blueprint.The question should be ,do we want to solve an intractable problem and if the majority thinks the answer lies in re-uniting Ireland, then that is the decision that should be made.We’d probably all make it work and finally end all the nationalist/unionist recriminations for good.Ireland is not the same place as it was 100 years ago after all.there should be plenty of room for diversity as long as we do not leave the world of logic behind.I’ll leave thatone for the flat earthers to sort out.
As for the new proposed Joint First Minister …if we ever have such a thing again…and that’s not a certainty…I would go for the lady in question although she’d need to slow down her speech for these ageing ears .
Maybe a fast talker is not the best thing for slow learners! If there was a peaceful transition to a united country tomorrow, we would still have the problem of greed, corruption, incompetence and poverty. So that’s why I say the battles start then. And Jessica, we are not joining the Free State. They will be joining us in a new Ireland. Then when the shackles of party politics are removed from our estranged brethren we shall have a new fairer society. It will be the gombeens,the sleeveens and the Seaneens who will get their marching orders.
Does the GFA allow for a new Ireland fiosrach?
I would all up for a new Ireland, but I wouldn’t be in any rush to join the 26 county one we have now.
We are not being assimilated by the 26 counties. We are going forward together to form a new Ireland. You join the Free State if you want. The GFA will disappear after unity.
Well fiosrach, you let me know when the push to form this new Ireland begins, as I am up for it.
But the GFA is already in the bin as far as I am concerned.
Stormont has proven itself yet again to be a joke and the southern establishment and their media make me sick.
I’m not certain the Goid Friday Agreement will disappear to quickly. In effect, my interpretation at the time was, it was a learning vehicle for unionists, to ease them into the idea of Fenians having a role in government.
The fall of ten years if such shows they need another vehicle as what was provided had loose wheels, perhaps boats are better, no wheels.
I suppose the same could be said for Gerry Adams moving south to get the southerners used to having northern Fenians having a role in THEIR government
Neither worked out too well though did they?
” The GFA will disappear after unity.”
Judging by Gerry Adams recent words Fiosrach, I wouldn’t be surprised if the GFA disappeared BEFORE Unity…..
Remember, the GFA is only viable for as long as Republicans support it, and many republicans have made the point that both Unionism and the British Government are cherry picking the agreement and refusing to implement the rest. For example the British Government just today said the GFA “secured NI in the Union”. That’s not true at all, a border poll is a key part of the GFA and the GFA also acknowledges the North is contested territory. Its not only the DUP’s arrogance that needs checked but also that of the British Government.
If the GFA were scrapped and new talks began, Republicans would get a better agreement given in 1998 we weren’t in as strong position as we are today.
I think there is no question that the GFA has been defaulted upon Ryan and it must be scrapped.
Stormont cannot be allowed to come up again before a new agreement replaces it.
The GFA and indeed the whole peace process which it was the foundation off has reached the end of the road.
Are you going to accept being treated like a second rate peace of shit by a bunch of unionist wankers in the DUP, the southern establishment or their biased media.
“For example the British Government just today said the GFA “secured NI in the Union”. That’s not true at all, a border poll is a key part of the GFA and the GFA also acknowledges the North is contested territory.”
This is untrue. The GFA does the opposite : it restates and affirms NI as part of the UK. And, for the first time, the Southern government committed to removing its constitutional claim.
When I first read the GFA, it sounded very much to me that it did indeed not only give up Irelands territorial claim on the north and also the birth right of every person born here after 1998. It brought Irelands constitution in line with that of the UK where nationality was no longer bound by territory.
Some have argued with me that I am wrong but it is certainly how the southern establishment have acted since and the southern media are in absolutely in no doubt about it whatsoever. We in the north are not Irish but british.
The majority of people I hear on the RTE radio over the past 12 months have also not been behind the door in letting us know Sinn Fein types are not welcome and that they don’t want us as part of a united Ireland.
I don’t recall it affirming anywhere that NI was part of the UK, only that it legitimised the right for Ireland to be united into the 26 county state by a referendum which could not be held more than once in a 7 year period, and that the current situation would remain until a majority vote was achieved. In other words, it wont happen before the south are happy we are worthy to be nice little Irish citizens and play by their rules.
Now, that can be construed as affirmation that NI is part of the UK, but certainly doesn’t inspire a valued part.
The GFA simply got rid of the hassle for both London and Dublin and made us all under valued second rate citizens with no opportunity to pursue prosperity in a country of our own. It made us totally dependant on hand outs from another state in return for an experimental devolution designed as with all british experiments in Ireland to subdue the desire for freedom while actually giving us none.
Once more we find ourselves doing the same thing over and over, still expecting a different result. Only this time, it isn’t only England who is jerking our chain, but the Dublin led new Irish state, now joined at the hip with britain.
“I don’t recall it affirming anywhere that NI was part of the UK”
You missed the bit where it says ‘It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom’?
I am surprised unionism didn’t have more respect for it then
Who knows how that would have panned out.
I would have not been adverse to a united Ireland inside some form of UK
You can go to hell now though.
MT you seem to have overlooked the part where it says that the majority of the people of Ireland and a large minority in the North (as of 1998) wished for Irish Unity and that this was legitimate and acknowledged, hence contested territory.
It only affirms NI’s place in the UK for the time being, until a border poll is called. That’s not secure within the Union. It would only be secure within the Union if there was no border poll in the GFA and no acknowledgment of the legitimacy of pursuing Irish Unity.
To be exact, the South changed its constitutional claim, they want to aspire to Irish Unity. Westminster also dropped the Government of Ireland Act (1920) and both governments are bound, legally, to implement any result of a border poll. Again, that’s not securing NI’s place within the Union. Republicans would NEVER have agreed to the North being secured in the Union.
David Trimble tried to paint the South’s constitutional change as more than what it was. He said that the South will be opening a foreign embassy in Belfast after the GFA. The Irish Government responded to this claim by saying they never agreed nor planned to open a foreign embassy in Belfast. Of course, they never did either.
I don’t think an Irish foreign embassy in Belfast would survive too long, do you?
I also don’t doubt they envisage Irish unity, but more the type of unity they gave to MI5 who now monitor 100% of Dublin’s airwaves, recording every call to a Gardai station and possibly every phone in Ireland.
Whatever the intent Ryan, the south has been behaving like republicans are the problem to be disposed off, not occupation, not british cover ups and not even unionism and I will not accept Irish unity on those terms.
Irish unity is no longer an attractive proposition to me, and that is the problem we need to address before there can be any border poll.
There is still some pride left in me for Irelands traditional values.
“MT you seem to have overlooked the part where it says that the majority of the people of Ireland and a large minority in the North (as of 1998) wished for Irish Unity and that this was legitimate and acknowledged, hence contested territory.”
That doesn’t make NI contested territory. A contrsfed territory is one whose sovereignty is not recognised by another state or states.
(And even if it did, it was already the case become the GFA so the GFA made no difference.)
“It only affirms NI’s place in the UK for the time being, until a border poll is called. That’s not secure within the Union. It would only be secure within the Union if there was no border poll in the GFA and no acknowledgment of the legitimacy of pursuing Irish Unity.”
I never said it was secure. But the provisions of the GFA, which were merely restatement of the acknowledged reality, didn’t make it less secure. There was already provision for a border poll before the GFA.
Arguably the opportunity for political stability and the end of the constitutional claim made it more secure.
“To be exact, the South changed its constitutional claim, they want to aspire to Irish Unity. Westminster also dropped the Government of Ireland Act (1920) and both governments are bound, legally, to implement any result of a border poll.”
I’m not sure how the South removing its constitutional claim means the GFA didn’t affirm NI’s place in the UK. As for ‘dropping’ (as you describe it) the 1920 Act, that made no legal or constitutional difference, given that ‘partition’ remained unchanged. And both governments were already legally bound to implement the result of a border poll before the GFA.
“Again, that’s not securing NI’s place within the Union.”
I never said it was.
“David Trimble tried to paint the South’s constitutional change as more than what it was. He said that the South will be opening a foreign embassy in Belfast after the GFA.”
No he didn’t.
PS. What happened to your list of ‘facts’ you claimed I have got wrong?
God forgive me MT, but I love to see you squirming.
The plaudits are really flooding in for Sinn Féin, Esteemed Blogmeister, and from the most unexpected of sources too: RTE Radio 1.
Yesterday, on the Dame Dosh Finucane Show, a Fianna Failure with a surname which has a familiar ring to it, accused, oops, lauded the Shinners for being Stalinist. On account of their appointing rather than electing their replacement for Martin McGuinness.
That was Jim O’Call-Again, FF MP for Dublin Dort South, yes, indeed, a bro of the better known Mimsy who, of course, rivals Dame Dosh F. in the starlet stakes in the studios at Donybrookeborough, oops, Donybrook, Dublin 4. Curiously, both bro and sis are in electioneering mode at the mo: the bro, for obvious reasons and the sis…..well, now.
Take a look at the divarsity of the recent line up in her Sunday Morning Cosy Cheek to Cheek Chat Show : from Joe Brolly to the the Dud-Edwards Duet of Bro and Sis, from Laurence McKeown to Biran Hayes etc etc: this is called covering all bases and is only to be expected from one whose modest designs are on (gasp) The Vice Regal Lodge, for which she is undergoing grind lessons in the Leprechaun pronunciation.
-Our House am Hooked Upon.
This is just a sample of the sacrifices she is happy to endure, bigly, in her determination to do her patriotic duty: selflessness is in her very marrow.. And this is not even to mention the precipitous, Cliffs of Moher like drop in dosh she would have her staff wheelbarrow home, on her behalf..
Who’d be unwise enough not to bet Mimsy’s inner sis won’t have have her bro ( see above) on as her guest some time soon? McCall-Again by name, McCall-Again by nature.
And then, yesterday we had the Shinners being accused, oops, lauded for being Nazi collaborators during the internecine German squabble, called the Churchill War. This praise was heaped during a re-enactment of a scene from the long-running comedy series The Castlereagh Cabaret in which a head from the Shinners, in the instance, oddly enough, Fear na Féasoige / The Bearded One was the chosen volunteer.
This involved his agreeing to allow himself be pommeled verbally till his face resembled a mask made of papier mache (which is, mon ami, French for ‘chewed paper’). .
Sadly, it did not quite work out that way. And so the Bearded One by interrogation’s end was still as nonchalant as the proverbial chewer of gum. And still staring at the proverbial spot on the wall, though that may well have been, erm, the gom in the opposite chair.
Memo to Management, RTE: a lot done, but a lot more to do if the interrogation team is to get a better shot at giving the Shinners what-not on the snot.
How many political parties get to be lauded for being Stalinist and Nazi both simultaneously and concurrently in the same weekend, on the same wireless station, and on back to back days?
Variety being that which adds a tincture of spice to life, what are the odds that in the fullness of time, and Michelle and Mary Lou are, respectively, the Queen B, North and Queen B, South, they will be branded by RTE as (gulp) The Nice Girls?
(As in: what are Nice Girls like you doing in a male-dominated Stalinist-Nazi outfit like the Shinners?)
In the meantime, the corgis on the streets of Dublin are barking under the outstretched arms of the pacifist Jim Larkin that RTE will soon have a chance to Up their I-Game in the not too d. future, bigly.. (I for Interrogation).
When they will be afforded an opportunity go grill the Gal who is, indubitably, the Empress of the Galiphate.
Consider the following; on (gasp) back to back days in the very recent past two Presidents left office, albeit by only slightly different routes.
On Friday, the President of the land of Aunt Samantha somewhat reluctantly asked for directions to Civvy Street while on Saturday President Yayha Jammeh, aka The Gombeen Man of The Gambia finally agreed to amble into the Republic of Obscurity . But not before he had to have his attention drawn to the D section of the Dictionary where the Defeat word was to be found. (Sound familiar?).
Now, here’s a thing:
On 18 February 2014, Jammeh called homosexuals “vermins” by saying that: “We will fight these vermins [sic] called homosexuals or gays the same way we are fighting malaria-causing mosquitoes, if not more aggressively”. He also went on to disparage the LGBT by saying that:
“As far as I am concerned, LGBT can only stand for Leprosy, Gonorrhoea, Bacteria and Tuberculosis, all of which are detrimental to human existence’.
Fast forward now to August 2014, but not before fastening all seat-belts: bigly. No going to Teach an Asail, neither.
Consider now this Kodak moment, at the following address, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington DC, involving an illuminated quartet tsnapped in a tsunami of tsmiles: the President of the USA, Michelle Obama, stunning in high heels and an even higher hair-style with the First Gentleman, Barack, faithfully by her side and their distinguished guests from The Gambia: (gulp) President and Mrs. Yayha Jammeh.
-Focus on the camera and say: Yahoo !
All leave has now been cancelled for the immediate future as RTE’s crack interrogation team go into strict. monastic training at a secret address North of the Black Sow’s Dyke. Though the corgis on the street of an unspecified barrack (small b) town are already barking to the following effect:
The barrack (alleged) is actually a disused Papier Mache factory which is patrolled on a 24/ 7 basis by a Causeway giant, basalt of chin and menacing of grin, who looks very smooth yet very grim, as seven blood-hounds follow him.
Book your seats now: tickets to the relevant RTE studio are on a first come, first self-serving basis.
Glancing at the posters being carried in the photo, I see “I dtreo Éire aontaithe”. As a pedant I think that should be genitive ” I dtreo Éireann aontaithe “. Could any poster/ blogger support or correct me?
Comhghairdeas Fiosrach! Sin úsáid is fearr comhréire feicthe agam i nGaeilge. A Unified Ireland which must wipe away 26+6 into a New Ireland
Perhaps Hugh, we should put less effort into calls for a border poll, and more into debate as to why there should be a new Ireland.
I mean, if the majority of Irish people in the 26 are as happy with how things are as the popularity of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail suggests, I want nothing to do with them.
A 6 county border poll is utterly irrelevant, I couldn’t even vote in it any more than I could for the GFA which is totally dead in the water by the way.
I have to agree with you on that Jessica , after Mr Poots dismissed any agreement ,such as the St Andrews piece of chaff ,as a pick- and- mix affair anyway and Peter Hain also said that agreements were not worth the paper they were written on. They were just for the optics.as a pretence that something was actually happening at all. The problem is that without agreements how are politics to be done at all? Who is actually going to respect any kind of future contract now…and why should they?
You couldn’t make it up Harry.
And RTE tells us we are the Nazis!
Well, if that is the way they want it to be.
A closing down of the british, irish council would be an extremely popular move with me at the moment Hugh.
“Humble scribbler “?!!–As Privatel Eye might say -“Shurely shome mistake”!!.I’m surprised that a distinguished commentator like yourself wasn’t on one of the discussion panels or at least chairing !
I do feel there’s a great deal of cognitive dissonance from unionism when it comes to the changing demographics of the north.
The vast majority of Catholics in my view will vote for reunification.