Let’s start a damp Wednesday with a few dry-as-gunpowder questions.
- Do Irish nationalists and republicans admire the various rebellions over the centuries against British rule in Ireland? Such occasions as the 1798 United Irishmen’s rebellion, the Young Irelanders’ rebellion of 1848, the Easter Rising of 1916? The reasonably safe answer to all of that is Yes.
- Do Irish nationalists and republicans admire the part played by republicans in the Troubles, starting in the late 1960s and ending some thirty years later? Um, Yes and No. There are many republicans – the late Martin McGuinness among them – who are proud of the resistance they made to British forces. Many others who’d describe themselves as nationalists would say No, that the taking of human life is too abhorrent to deserve support. Which seems contradictory, since the same people would say that 1798, 1848 etc were glorious events. My own belief is that those who reject the violence of the Troubles and feel proud of the violence in previous generations do so because previous generations are safely in the distant past. When violence is seen close-up, for some it’s unbearably ugly.
OK, let’s move swiftly on and look at the US this morning. President Trump, surprise, surprise, is in hot water again. He started by saying the Charlottesville violence in general was to be condemned, then pulled back and denounced the neo-Nazis and white supremacists for what happened, and now he’s back saying there’s much to be said on both sides. Most Americans, including his own party, are appalled. He should denounce the white supremacists.
Are those in his party right? Is his on-the-one-hand-on-the-other appalling? Many think so. But maybe if they look across the Atlantic, they should feel more grateful that Trump has arrived at this blanket condemnation of violence. So here’s your third and final question today, as brightness tries to struggle through the grey above us.
3. When did you last hear the First Minister Arlene Foster, or any senior member of her party, do other than condemn republican violence? I ask that question in an honest search for information, because I can’t recall an occasion when a leading unionist went so far as to say that there were many cruel deeds done on both sides. Queen Elizabeth has said something close to that but I don’t recall a unionist politician saying so.
So maybe Americans shouldn’t be too hard on old Donald. Yes, he’s saying there’s blame on both sides at Charlottesville. But it appears we haven’t even reached that point. In fact, that tempts me to a last last question.
4. When is the last time you heard a politician, north or south of the border, declare that Ireland is entitled to govern itself, free from outside interference, and that all armed resistance to that interference deserves understanding and respect? Correct – the answer is Never. So I’d repeat: don’t be too hard on Donald. In ways, he’s come further than our leaders.
So Jude describes the wicked PIRA campaign as ‘resistance they made to British forces’. That is appalling. The vast majority of it was unprovoked and pre-planned murderous attacks on fellow Irish people, Irish property and businesses.
And Jude thinks it’s contradictory to admire, say, the 1798 rebels but not the Provisional IRA. Assuming Jude himself does not hold such a contradictory position does this mean he admires the PIRA or that he doesn’t admire the United Irishmen?
Tam
We do not really know Jude’s opinion on the violence of the recent PIRA campaign (beyond the obvious statement that those involved in it thought they were right). and we probably never will.
I don’t think his second point is accurate in how he explains the feelings of nationalists or republicans who did not admire the PIRA.
It is not necessarily the case that such people feel “the taking of human life is too abhorrent to deserve support.”. They may simply feel that in this instance violence was unjustified but in other situations violence was justified. There is nothing contradictory about that in my view.
As for unionism I am pretty sure that loyalist violence was regularly condemned by unionist politicians during the troubles.
I suspect Jude is referring more to security force killings rather than loyalist paramilitary groups (yes virginia I know they are the same thing!) in which case I think he has a point. Unionism has always been too reluctant to criticise the activities of the RUC and UDR or for that matter the British army.
Agree with all of that giordanobruno, though unionist politicians do condemn wrongdoing by the security forces when pressed.
As for Jude yes he seems to have this view that one can only either support all violence or none. Yet he is not a pacifist. Maybe one day be will explain .
Tam
I don’t want to see our politicians having to be pressed before condemning wrongdoing, I want them to be taking the lead.
But it is a common feature here, as we saw recently with Stephen McCann on the Enniskillen bomb, John Finucane on the IRA’s violence or Nigel Dodds on UDA violence (in the same interview as Finucane, if I recall correctly).
The preferred getout is some form of words condemning all violence or all wrongdoing, while avoiding comment on any particular incident.
I get told off here for suggesting one side is as bad as the other but in this particular behaviour they are certainly similar.
I generally agree, GB. Though while we would wish unionists not to have to be pressed before they condemn security force wrongdoing, at least they do condemn it when pressed.
SF politicians however will never condemn PIRA and even make a point of commemorating and celebrating their wickedness.
Is this the wicked IRA campaign which started for no reason and had no support and lasted thirty years? Where the sectarian IRA sought out the catholic members of the British colonial forces above Protestants?
You first, Tam…
?
Do you mean the ‘wicked’ 1798 rebels,as they were described by Daniel O Connell
No.
Tam, I think modern republicanism goes something like this on a timeline of approval distaste:
United Irishmen – pretty good for a bunch of Prods
1916 – HEROES ALL!
IRA 1922-1969 – err…didn’t happen, runs contrary to the “all the Prods’ fault” troubles narrative.
Provisional IRA – Irish Patriots. the war came to them. Every bomb had a warning and all civilian deaths were a terrible accident, probably due to Brit collusion. Punishment beatings, extortion, etc. are all Brit conspiracy lies. Brave boys who never did nathin’ to no one.
Dissident Republicans – nothing like the PIRA. Traitors. Marty said so. Just criminal thugs will no mandate and remember, nothing at all like the PIRA.
Interesting, Esteeemed Blogmeister, how some words are IN and other words are Out! Out! Out!
Take the word IN itself.
Right now, or indeed, Alt-right now, the second letter is IN – N for Nationalism. While the first letter is not at all in – I for Imperialism.
Thus, when it comes to violence it is only ever Nationalist Violence which gets denounced while Imperialist Violence is treated to, erm, Silence. (Or, An Tost Fada as the pixilated Praxis Fillum Company might term it).
We are referring to the Anti-Social Media aka the Mainstream Media here; it is a different kettle of fisticuffs entirely on Social Media.
Take a detached Olympian article in yesterday’s edition of the foremost mainstream Organ of Record in the Free Southern Stateen, the (sadly) moribund Unionist Times.
-United Ireland will not be based on ‘50 per cent plus one’
Here we find the Reigning European Heavyweight Commentating Champion going through his regular routine of thumping his leathery and punchdrunk punch bag with a fetching portrait of (gulp) Gerry Adams martynturnered upon it.
Like the Praxis Fillum Company (see above) it is what FOT does; it is his, erm, Shtick.
The gymnasium of choice is, surprisingly or not, located in Thump Towers and is adjacent to Tara House, aka The Departure Lounge.
Tired of thumping the punch bag and giving the Great Satan what not on the snot, Fintan ‘Slugger’ O Toole (for it is he!) floated like a butterfly to do a spot of shadow boxking in front of his favourite full-length mirror.
Here the target was different, but only in the geographical sense. For the target this time for his rat-tat-tat Alt-left jabs was (gasp):
– The Upsurge of English Nationalism.
Hmmmmm.
Four weeks ago or so, the same Fintan ‘Slugger’ O Toole in the same doomed TUT (which has one, erm, FOT in the grave) indicated just why he is known as The Snowflake Fakir of Fake Umbrage in the outer reaches of dumb Nationalism when he employed his celebrated Rope-a-Trope routine:
-Fake Birmingham apology is part of the IRA’s twisting of history
(Brazen lie underpins republican evasions about 1974 bombings that killed 21)
It may well be a conincidence, of course, but curiously, there is not a jot or even an i dotted to do with I for Imperialism here neither. As in (gasp) English Imperialism.
Perhaps, after all, it is time to call in the Counter Tenors of the Bean Counting profession. (No use calling on Gerry A who is, in boxing terminology, a Stumblebum when it comes to the Sums).
To do the following TOT for TUT in general and FOT in particular while there is still time and Times:
Compare and contrast the numbers iced by nice English Imperialism with the numbers whacked by the Paddywhacks of hackneyed Irish Nationalism.
For ALL conflicts involving each set of unholy terrors. In the case of the former, of course, it might even include Murders at both ends of the Orient Express.
Well pointed out Jude, maybe Nolan and Crawley should do a show on that, BBC research team should be able to cobble together some information re this.
“When did you last hear the First Minister Arlene Foster, or any senior member of her party, do other than condemn republican violence? I ask that question in an honest search for information, because I can’t recall an occasion when a leading unionist went so far as to say that there were many cruel deeds done on both sides. Queen Elizabeth has said something close to that but I don’t recall a unionist politician saying so”
Once again Jude, you have done well to call them out on this.