I have always found that unionists don’t really get irony. It seems to sail right over their head for some reason. Okay, I know we shouldn’t generalise in this way but you know what I mean. Anyway this being so it is a safe bet to say that they will not appreciate how ironic it is that their actions have made the border as big an issue as it has ever been.
Unionists voting for Brexit never made sense anyway – a bit like the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas – but vote they did and now they are stuck with it.
Over the last weeks we have heard numerous proposals from hard borders to frictionless borders to technological borders and everything in between. Last week we had the British government’s semi-proposals – semi because there was not all that much in them as to how the border question can be resolved.
But the longer the debate goes on and the more proposals put forward there is an inescapable logic forcing its way to the surface and that is that the only real viable solution to the border in the event of Brexit is no border at all.
This is not to suggest some sort of instant united Ireland, welcome and all as that would be, but instead it is difficult to envisage any sort of solution to the question of the border that will not create major problems on this island. So that being so perhaps the British government will follow the logic and have their hard border across the Irish sea,
Now this would not be popular with unionists but it would be a solution to a beleaguered British government who don’t seem to have any plan to deal with the question of the island of Ireland.
So back to the irony. Here we have the champions of Brexit in this part of the world, the DUP, creating a situation where they may find that administratively at last Ireland is treated as a single entity. This would make sense for a whole pile of reasons not least in that it would reflect the wishes of the majority here as opposed to the majority across the water.
We don’t want Brexit and we didn’t vote for Brexit but if the DUP have their way we are going to suffer from Brexit anyway. So there is a certain ironic justice in the fact that by voting for Brexit the DUP have set in motion wheels that may eventually lead to a united Ireland.
As the old saying goes be careful what you wish for because you might just get it!
The DUP’s folly is indeed ironic.
But one could equally ask the question, if Brexit sets in motion wheels that may eventually lead to a united Ireland, why did SF and the SDLP oppose it?
Tam :
Brexit will be bad for all of the people in the North – that’s why the majority of the people in the North voted against it.
Thanks to the superb efforts of the Irish Government, the North has the right of automatic re-entry to the EU by virtue of a vote to do so – the only part of the UK with this built-in mechanism.
And, of course, thanks to the Irish Nation, people in the North have the right to Irish – and EU – citizenship as a birthright.
By far and away the best and most practical solution to the border issue is to have the Ireland border in the Irish Sea.
Tam asked a simple question – why dud Sinn Fein and the SDLP.oppose Brexit?
Brexit is a catastrophe for the North – that’s why the majority of people voted against.
A Re-United Ireland is inevitable.
No worries TAM, Unionists will be able to retain the option of choosing British identity after Re-Unification.
It’s all good.
How is Brexit a “catastrophe” for the North?
Britain has been picking up the bill for the 6 Counties since it’s inception, and if it chooses to do so, that arrangement can continue for time ever-after.
There is nothing “inevitable” about a United Ireland.
In fact, it’s not even likely.
Sadly it was likely to do with money……….and cos the Clintons and Obama’s told them it was the right thing to do. Alas like a lot of others in Ireland, they suffer from the affliction of always seeking the US for guidance. Pathetic really.
Yes indeed.
Jim McVeigh tells us the Shinners voted for Remain because the EU finances ex-prisoners projects.
“Jobs for the Boys”, alive and well and in your face.
Because so far it looks everyone including Sinn Feinn like bad news.
SF opposed for the same reason as the SNP – they needed a remain vote so that London would be seen to be acting against the wishes of the people. I’ve no doubt that many within the SNP and SF were hoping for a vote leave win to drive forward their case for independence/reunification – interesting times as Adams said minutes after the result came in.
So, Sinn Feins support of the EU is merely posturing?
Goodness HC, surely not?
When exactly was it they U-turned on the EU?
@ Tam.
I’m not exactly sure, but it happened sometime between 2012 when Gerry Adams said “We didn’t fight the British for 500 years just to hand power to Brussels” and 2017 when Michelle O’Neill said “Leaving the EU would be a disaster”.
Of course, supporting the EU might be just yet another Trojan Horse, and the real Sinn Fein might stand up with yet another flip-flop in the near future.
Watch this space….
Yes it’s remarkable how they performed such a U-turn with nobody in the media noticing. No challenge and no scrutiny when they suddenly jumped into the EU camp at the time of the Brexit referendum.
Still, only the latest in a long list of U-turns
Non-recogniton of the courts
of the Dail
Non-recogniton of Stormont
Consent principle
Non-recognition of UK sovereignty in NI
‘Armed struggle’
Decommissioning
Socialism
Non-recogniton of the police
Welfare reform
Any others?
Unionists have been taking the wrong fork in the road since partition.
Well to be fair, they did have a golden 50 years of misrule during which they lorded over the natural inhabitants instead of making it seem like an attractive place to cohabitate.
But that was likely also the wrong fork so my original statement stands.
A few highlights:
Sunningdale – chance to avert the support for the PIRA by sharing
Anglo Irish Agreement – forced into it and it worked out good
Belfast Agreement – again forced into it and it worked out good – including their ministers personally
Brexit – yet to be seen but not looking good for them
It might be wise over the next big decision to do the opposite of what they propose.
It makes absolute sense to have that border on Britain’s shores….that’s where they voted to leave the EU….we voted to remain…it was right-wing Britain’s xenophobic irrationality that gifted them , probably , the worst deal in their history l Presently I need identification ,in the form of a passport etc to fly to Britain anyhow so notthing changes….Tam , everything with you seems to be a futile attempt to outscore your neighbours…the people you’ll have to make your bed with in the very near future. Is it not near time that Unionism crept silently into the 21st centuty and started talking and behaving like adults…started or engaged in intelligent and meaningful debate about our shared future ….before Britain again , foists another unwanted , cobbled-together disasterous “solution” on us.
“right -wing British xenophobes”.
Does that sweeping generalisation refer to ALL British people; MOST British people; SOME British people or a tiny rump of British people?
While not everyone who voted for Brexit was “right-wing British xenophobe” you can bet your house that the vast vast majority of right wing British xenophobes voted for Brexit.
Well, not really.
The Remain campaign merrily lined up behind a Prime Minister that referred to refugees as “swarms”, blocked 1,000 children.at Calais and deported tens of thousands of refugees out of Fortress Europe in clear defiance of their Human Rights.
Love him or loathe him, but Farage never deported a single refugee. Cameron did.
The right-wing xenophobes were on both sides of the argument.
Did Farage have the power to deport anyone?
It’s him and his ilk that brought about Brexit.
I stand by my earlier statement.
If Farage is as toxic as you claim, can you explain why Mary Lou shared public platforms with him?
The vote to leave the E.U. wasn’t largely due to right wing xenophobic irrationality, polls have consistently shown that immigration was a major factor for less than 30% of those who voted for “Brexit” and a large chunk of Labour and left of centre people (including myself) voted for it. I made my judgment on the nature of the E.U., immigration didn’t enter into it, as we’ve always had immigration and always will. In NI. the largest chunk of the electorate, 470,432, didn’t bother to vote, they outnumbered both the 440,707 who voted remain and the 349,442, who voted leave, N.I. was one of the regions with the lowest turnout.
Another brexit headache to think about —
I tipped over to Cavan General Hospital last night to visit someone from the Oriel county. I passed the border 4 times on the way there and 4 times on the way back, all on the same road – N54.
Now, im no gasun any longer, but i remember going the same pad in the 80’s and on trying to negotiate the checkpoints and the British soldiers looking for ID’s the hold-ups and ques, – it was no wonder they got a few physical reminders of how unwelcome they were.
My point is, Cavan is the main hospital now for the Monaghan area, the Monaghan services are cut. The N54 is the only direct road to Cavan hospital. if the borders come back, how does the Irish Government ensure people in the region have access to proper health care?
Still no answer to my question. If Brexit makes a ‘united Ireland’ more likely, why did SF and SDLP oppose it?
Tam :
One reason would be to limit the damage so that the North would not be such an economic basket- case
in the inevitable Re-United Ireland.
That said, I am of the opinion that the North does not need to be destined to be a permanent economic basket- case and indeed I have every confidence that as part of a Re-United Ireland, the North will be able to replicate the success of this part of the country.
It’s all good.
And was that the reason?
So SF would have preferred a ‘united Ireland’ was not made more likely because they’d prefer a less likely united Ireland with a more prosperous NI.
Tam :
One reason would be to limit the damage so that the North would not be such an economic basket- case.
That said, I am of the opinion that the North does not need to be destined to be a permanent economic basket- case and indeed I have every confidence that as part of a Re-United Ireland, the North will be able to replicate the success of this part of the country.
It’s all good.
What was it that Patrick Pearse said about “….they think they have purchased half of us….”?
No worries Tam – a Re-United Ireland is inevitable.
Just how large a basket-case it develops into post-Brexit remains to be seen.
Unionists will have the option of choosing to retain their British identity post Irish Re- Unification so no issue there.
Nothing is inevitable.
If it were there’d be no need for nationalists to keep banging on about it.
Tam :
No worries – you’ll be grand.
The North has special status now thanks to the Government of Ireland successfully getting the North automatic EU membership by virtue of a vote – the only region in Europe outside the EU and the only region in the UK post-Brexit to have this.
An irreversible Nationalist ELECTORAL majority in the North by the mid-2020’s – and increasing with each passing year thereafter.
Unionists have nothing to fear in a Re-United Ireland – except boredom perhaps – and Unionist bonfires every 11th July.
It’s all good.
So what happens if a sizeable minority of Unionism prefers to resist your “inevitable” United Ireland with violence?
GFA says 50% + 1 – and Unionists signed up.
Unionists can resist all they want.
It was 50%+1 before the GFA.
Just because SF didn’t accept consent before the GFA doesn’t mean everyone else didn’t either.
@ Turbo.
The DUP didn’t sign up to the GFA though, did they?
And they’ve spent 19 years wrecking and breaking it.
Why would they honour any commitment to 50%+1?
They signed up at St Andrews. But regardless they already supported consent. They didn’t oppose GFA because of the consent principle.
It wouldn’t be up to the DUP to honour the provision. It would be up to HMG and the Southern government.
@ Tam.
Can you think of any other times that Ulster Protestants/ Unionism has defied Democracy, HM Government, and their Monarch in order to pursue their own self-interest?
The DUP could ‘defy’ all they want it still won’t be up to them to honour it. All they’ll be able to do is protest and try to make life difficult. But it’d be futile.
@ Tam.
And does that include inciting violent resistance?
Possibly.
@ Tam
Yes, I agree.
And that is a lot more inevitable than Sinn Feins blind faith in this 50%+1 nonsense holding sway.
That’s not special status: it’s a statement of the obvious. Of course if NI joined ROI it would rejoin the EU: ROI is an EU member. How could it be otherwise?
Turbo appears to be overlooking the fact that East Germany offers the precedent for this sort of absorption, and this “unique” status offers a marvellous opportunity for the EU Empire to give the British Empire a bloody nose.
So.much for our sovereignty being unfettered and indefeasible.
The British Govt tried to prevent this special status for the North – but their efforts failed.
The times are a changin’.
It’s all good.
There is no ‘special status’ and the UK government didn’t try to stop anyone stating the obvious.
…”the UK government didn’t try to stop anyone stating the obvious.” – Tam
Yep – they did.
But failed.
http://www.irishnews.com/news/brexit/2017/06/13/news/british-government-tried-to-delay-eu-s-united-ireland-declaration–1053145/
That just said they tried to delay it.
and failed.
The times are-a-changin’.
No worries, you’ll be grand in a Re-United Ireland within the EU.
It’s all good.
You’ll be grand in the UK outside the EU. It’s all good.
“You’ll be grand in the UK outside the EU” – Tam
Eh ?
Pro-EU support is close to 90% in this part of the country so as long as the EU remains in place, this part of the country will continue to be a member. Even at some point in the future if the EU decides to call it a day, there is no way this part of the country will ever allow itself to be ruled by Britain – ever. You can count on that.
.
As regards the North, there will be a Nationalist ELECTORAL majority by the mid-2020’s – it may not automatically result in a Re-United Ireland immediately but it will definitely be a major game-changer – of that there is absolutely no doubt.
(i) If the UK economy goes south (‘scuse the pun) post-Brexit, then the North is going to suffer even more substantial economic pain – and this may well serve as an incentive for some Unionists to consider re-joining both Ireland and the EU – particularly an Ireland continuing to prosper as an EU member. Not all Unionists are die-hard fanatics – but some are hard-headed realists who will consider what is in their bests interests and if they are offered a generous deal in a Re-United Ireland, then this will be a realistic option. As Nationalists have zero interest in humiliating Unionists in a
Re-United Ireland, a generous deal is what will be on the table. (By the way, this is what Unionists should have dome way back in the day in 1920 re Nationalists in the North – even Carson tried to encourage that – but no, the OO wanted to discriminate against and humiliate the Nationalists and so they did – and which is why you ended up with a broken, dysfunctional Northern statelet.)
(ii) If the UK becomes the land of milk and honey post-Brexit, then it will prompt all EU members to have a bit of that, so it’s basically as you were, except Ireland is now far wealthier and has a far more diversified export-driven economy that it had in pre-EU (EEC) days, in addition to the fact that Ireland is now a progressive, stable, tolerant and strong democracy that some Unionists will consider joining up to, particularly as Unionists will be then (mid-2020’s onwards) a minority in the North. In the interim period before the inevitable Re-United Ireland, the Nationalist majority in the North will continue to drive the equality programme in full as agreed in the GFA.
Anyway, the future for Ireland is bright no matter what way you look at it.
Have a good one, a chara.
Slán.
Something tells me that your experience with Ulster Loyalism is precisely zilch.
Good post TurboFurbo, I agree with your analysis 100%.
“Something tells me that your experience with Ulster Loyalism is precisely zilch”
I confess not to have 100% of all the available information on the Shankhill Butchers or other Unionist death squads, especially the ones run by the now disgraced, discredited, defeated, disbanded and dumped-in-the-bin RUC and its Special Branch.
By the way, did the British security forces prime the bomb for the Miami Showband murders – or was that a solo run by Unionists terrorists ? I suspect it was a home-made job as the Unionist terrorists blew themselves to bits in the process of murdering innocent civilians.
Perhaps you can fill us in on that particularly grisly atrocity – as you give the impression of being the Forum expert on Unionist terrorism. Mind you, it could be just all bluster on your part.
Thanks in advance and have a good one.
The RUC wasn’t disbanded.
As Tam correctly points out, the RUC wasn’t disbanded, they were given a George Cross and subsumed into the new improved PSNI.
I wonder if this United Ireland that you’re selling us will continue to pay their inflated pensions whilst delivering amnesties?
It wasn’t subsumed into PSNI, it was renamed PSNI.
For once,Tam, I have to agree with you. The RUC were renamed and rehired en masses to the new ‘improved’ PSNI. That is, after they got their redundancy, their Patten money, their deafness money, their enhanced pension they came back as cocky and anti nationalist as ever they were. Answerable to nobody.
@ Tam.
Look up the dictionary meaning of “Subsume”. To include and/or absorb.
The UVF were subsumed into the 36th Division.
The UVF were subsumed into the Specials.
The RUC were subsumed into the PSNI.
Tell me this Tam, if the RUC were such a great bunch of guys and gals, why was there any need to change the name? In the real world we all know that the stink coming from the rotting corpse that was the RUC had to be dealt with. Subsume them, rename them, do what ever had to be done to clean up the smell, but for God’s sake do something. Having said all that, in my opinion most people will agree that, no matter how much you play around with words, in reality they were disbanded.
They wanted to attract nationalist support and presumably signal a break form the Troubles
One of the reasons for rebranding the RUC was because the FBI refused to work with them following their involvement in killing Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson.
“huge celt”
Some people still believe the RIC and the DMP still exist. In fairness, the British Government still continued to pay their pensions long after they were defeated and disbanded.
OK, OK, we’ll put it in as part of the package that the British Government continue to pay the defeated and disbanded RUC pensions after Re-Unification.
No worries.
You wussied out on me re Unionist terrorism and Unionist terrorists – and here was me thinking you might be in on the know, wink-wink.
Should have known from day one you are simply full of bluster.
All that remains at this stage is the assimilation process – and that will take it’s own course just like as happened in this part of the country.
Those that could not stomach it left – and those that stayed assimilated.
“It was a sell-out of all we stood for and all that our fathers died for”
– Ian Paisley on the GFA
Games’s up.
I wasn’t motivated to respond to your banality when you started prattling on about the Shankill Butchers blah blah blah.
Now, if you’d like to speculate on future Loyalist terrorism, then I would be intrigued to hear your imaginings…..
Ps. Assimilation hasn’t worked since the 16th Century…..why do you imagine it will work now?.
“Assimilation hasn’t worked since the 16th Century”
Yep, deliberate colonial policy of divide and rule.
– but has worked very well in this part of the country post-independence.
“…..why do you imagine it will work now?.”
Same reason as in this part of the country post-independence – those who cannot stomach it will leave and those that stay will assimilate over time.
Boy meets girl and all that – you know the way it goes.
Well, there’s 800,000 of Themuns up here – with access to vast amounts of both legally and illegally held hardware – it only takes a significant minority, committed and highly trained, to resist in arms, and you Southerners will turn tail and run.
How useful do you think your 50%+1 be then?
There won’t be any British army to back them up and we’ll have Óglaigh na hÉireann. No sniggering at the back.
@ Fioseach.
According to Veterans For Peace, 19% of the current British Armed Forces are from the 6 Counties.
That sounds very much like a highly trained, highly committed militia.
Do you fancy waving your 50%+1 mandate in front of them?
Remember Algeria. Vive la France.
I suggest you shout exactly that when they come marching down your street.
That’ll show them.
The British government ( Queen’s speech and all that) will instruct their loyalist ( scrapings of the Scottish jails ) that they are better served in a reunited Ireland. There will be years of soft soaping and of course they are actually Irishmen after all ( but whisper that). It’ll all work out, no need for the violence you’re praying for.
I’m certainly not praying for it.
But if Sinn Fein continue with this 50%+1 folly, “Ulster will fight, and Ulster will be right”.
And that means that Catholics in North Antrim will be expelled in huge numbers.
And your 32 County absurdity will be immediately drenched in blood.
So we keep our heads down and say nothing – even if we’re 99%.
I’m not here to spoonfeed you.
If it hasnt occurred to you before that Loyalism would not simply rollover to your 50%+1, then it’s your strategy is fatally holed below the water-line.
It’s up to you to repair it, or think again.
No, I think what he means is sanatise ourselves so that we’re acceptable to unionism and they might follow into a reunited country. So get rid of the Irish language demands, change all the GAC names they find unpalatable, allow sectarian marches wherever, whenever ( just like the good old days) and please no Irish symbolism and always respect the British historical narrative. Become good Uncle Toms basically and all will be well.
Sure Sinn Fein have put the Irish Language Act on the back-burner for 10 years since it was signed in 2007. They certainly didn’t sweat about it.
And nowadays they force sectarian marches past districts that don’t want them, so that’s hardly a sacrifice either.
The Shinners don’t have any meaningful influence on GAA clubs names so that won’t change.
You certainly have an answer for everything,huge. Ever think of going into government?