When it comes to dealing with Scotland or Ireland, English politicians seem to have a knack for doing or saying the wrong thing. Up until now, the Better Together campaign in Scotland was urging that country to stay in the United Kingdom because if they didn’t, they’d be in terrible shape, not least financially. Today David Cameron – who is dodging a TV debate with Alex Salmond the way a flag protestor might seek to avoid a water cannon- will make a speech urging Scotland to say in the UK because ….well because the rest of us would be weakened and miserable without you. It’s like a husband or wife who’s been urging their spouse to stay, if they go they’ll regret it. Now the husband or wife is saying don’t go, because I’ll be miserable without you. Not a very dignified or persuasive argument, methinks.
The fact that it’s coming from a posh Tory in London makes it even worse. The biggest link Cameron has with Scotland is that his great-grandfather or some such used to live in a castle there. Pretty persuasive again, eh?
I was on BBC Radio Ulster/Raidio Uladh this morning with Ian Paisley jr discussing this. Ian figures we should all take off our coats and pitch into the Scottish independence battle, especially now that the tide is beginning to turn against the Better Together crowd. He’s right of course: were Scotland to opt for independence, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say the Union’s days would be numbered. But this is a two-edged sword Ian is waving over his head. If he says the rest of us in the UK should be given a voice as to how much we’d love Scotland to stay tied to Mother Westminster’s apron-strings (memo to Ian: no we don’t), the obvious question pops us: why don’t the rest of the UK speak out bold and clear about whether they want the North of Ireland to remain within the Union. Ian says ach sure they’d want us to stay of course. They will and your posterior, Ian. The English, the Welsh and the Scots would heave a massive sigh of relief and deliver a resounding No. Then they’d go off to the pub and celebrate the cutting of the cord with what they’ve always regarded as a bunch of paddy nutters.
Spot on as usual Jude, what why do you think the vote will go?
Dunno, Chris – I’m a rotten prophet. I’d have said the Yes would be defeated, but since Cameron’s slightly hysterical outburst yesterday, I remember the capacity of English politicians to kick themselves in the face ( cf post-1916). To paraphrase Brendan Behan, there is no situation so bad that the arrival of an English politician cannot make it worse.
The people of England would vote to get rid of Scotland tomorrow too so its a bit of a stupid stance from Cameron. Independence will fail this time simply because people are afraid of the unknown.
Must check out your chat with Ian Og on the BBC I player Jude, the thing I don`t understand is why people who favour independence for Scotland use economic arguments. Surely the old maxim about wanting to rule your own country is reason enough? Anything that weakens the `union` is fine by me but George Galloway is against independence as he thinks Scottish society is still full of anti Catholic bigotry.
Another Jude. I don’t know why Cameron persists with this mantra/slogan tha t ‘we’re stronger together’ and ‘weaker apart, becuse he’s fooling nobody with that. Everyone knows England could stage and win a referendum to leave the Union and would have same clout in the world as now, This doesn’t apply to any of the other 3 parts and NI’s existence since partition is nothing but black by unionist/loyalists implying they would cause a civil war, and Britain’s capitulation to that threat these last 90 years.
Another Jude – I admire G Galloway’s speaking abilities and his stance on a number of things. On this one he’s very unconvincing. Heard him speak on it in Belfast: sorry to say he went down sharply in my esteem from that moment.
I think before people jump into a new and unfamiliar situation ,for example ,an independent Scotland or a new united Ireland., we need some unadorned facts as to how the thing would work.What we would lose and what we might gain.
Given the problems we’ve had her in Ireland ,I think that many people in the UK would drop us in a heartbeat. They are not aware of the facts of our existence, even
To give you an example,: In the past I’ve lived in cities like London, Manchester and Leeds , and the fact is that the guy in the street or the pub has scant knowledge of our existence never mind where we are. We are all just2 Paddy”.
I worked with young lads from the east end in London who ,like many Belfast residents had never been beyond the city in their lifetime.[“You mean, out in the country?”] Most of them had never been to anywhere in the north of England and they also spoke of Ireland [Not “Northern Ireland” or the” North of Ireland”] as being “Out there”. As far as they were concerned , Ireland could have been somewhere near India. They had scant idea of us at any level but were quite content in that position. Sometimes I think the “fleg and parades ” situation in Belfast has the same resonance for anyone beyond the city limits. It only impacts on the people living with it.For the rest of us it is a media story that can be switched on or off. We can choose to watch and/or understand it.
A small minority actually think in any depth about the situation here or in Scotland. What is needed is a game -plan that won’t frighten the punters….facts on a page. Will we be better off in fifty years if we do this or that. We need unemotional facts to make up our minds. No tribal tub thumping about lost”identities” whatever that might mean . How will it work financially. No waffle please…facts.I know who I am .I was born on an island called Ireland so I can call myself an Irishman no matter how many imaginary lines are drawn across a map. after that , Do I want to be a British Irishman an Indian Irishman , a Chinese Irishman , a Scottish Irishman or a Polish Irishman… is each individual’s choice and affair. if we join with the rest of Ireland [If they should ever want us to join!] how will that work after working the way we have for so long?
Has anyone gone any further in working out the logistics?
I’m sure there are a lot of “emotional” Scots who are apprehensive about any kind of change. Change can frighten everone but sometimes it’s our only blessing.
Well said, paddyk. I agree that the facts are in serious need of laying out, starting with the economic case. There are other arguments that can be made as well: love of country is more than love of the size of one’s pay-cheque or even the health service. But yes, a thousand times yes, let us have the argument with facts and logic the essential ingredients
I hope Mr Salmond plays his hand well. He should portray Scotland as a small proud nation ready to takes it place on the world stage. Should the Unionists continue to peddle lies and half truths about Scotland he should consider setting up a rapid rebuttal unit in order to counter their lies and deceit.
Another jude makes a good point despite what nationalists here would prefer (ie Scottish independence), Scots with Irish heritage would mainly vote labour and be a little bit suspicious of the old orange and kilt party oops I mean SNP.
I think this cartoon from the Scotsman newspaper sums it up perfectly.
http://m.scotsman.com/news/the-scotsman-cartoon-cameron-s-distant-union-plea-1-3298496
Jude : My apologies for any errant typos in some of the posts.above. The pity is we can’t re-edit when our heads run ahead of the keyboard.
This run-up to the ref with Scottish TV debates for at least a month prior to the key day, is a lose-lose for unionists here. They can’t win. If they go over to ,effectively, tell Scots they’re too stupid to make it on their own, that won’t help their argument, and if they stay away, even in the face of a narrowing margin in polls, they’ll be admitting they’re a liability to the NO side. Hoist on their own petard. It’s going to be rather uncomfortable for unionists when the real view of them in Britain is laid bare for all to see, and as Ian jnr admitted, ‘republicans tails will be up’ All Cameron needs is wee Jeffrey and the ‘mighty Dawds. Ye Gods sticking their oars in.
The SNP have been making inroads into the once solid ‘Irish/Catholic’ Labour vote. The intervention of the DUP/UUP/Orange Order and assorted ‘fleggers’ may actually be a cunning plot to remind the erstwhile labour voters of what lurks beneath the surface of Scottish society and why they voted labour for generations. On the other hand, its more likely that the version of Britishness represented by Ulster’s best is so far removed from the secular,multi-cultural, liberal brand of Britishness espoused by Labour that the SNP should consider paying their fares.
My stars! I’ve just seen Ian Paisley Jnr at Westminster and his little paranoid rant re. Scotland and the possibility of the Union breaking apart. With Ian, it’s all about them pesky republicans in Ireland doing something sneaky and getting something we didn’t get….
Right there you have the “Reds under the beds” ,1950s fear of “themmuns”. Never mind the economics, it’s all a plot by that other lot to do our wee part of the kingdom down. Plots, plots gunpowder plots!
That kind of thinking is very apparent everywhere in unionism currently. There are plots everywhere. If Scotland does this to us , somehow “themmuns” did it from behind the scenes. That lot get everything and we get nothing. That’s the current level of political thought in unionism. Is it any wonder that Mr. Haass could not help them out of their self- inflicted mental prison.. how is anyone going to help these poor damaged buggers.