Dear Mr Humphrey,
It was good to get to know you on the Nolan Show last night, even if only in the course of a brief encounter. A rational exchange of views, however short, is always helpful in our divided society. But perhaps we could make a little more progress if we keep a few thoughts in mind.
1. When you disagree with someone, it doesn’t really strengthen your argument to start name-calling. I accept readily that my views won’t be shared by you, and vice versa. But I think to move from discussion of Orangeism to my writing and to stamp it all as ‘jaundiced’ doesn’t help. That particular argument is known as ad hominem, or playing the man not the ball, in sluggerotoole terminology.
2. Your defence of the Orange Order as being motivated by matters spiritual and other-worldly are interesting but fairly pointless, unless you’re trying to make your audience laugh. Most people, including myself, would concede that the Orange Order does have a religious veneer, and that’s probably part of its anti-Catholic nature. It is, however, a still-strong political force – as seen by the fact that so many Prime Ministers of this state were members of the Orange Order and, more recently, senior Orange Order member Rev Mervyn Gibson represented the DUP at the recent Haass talks.
3. It might help if those who are the supporters of the Orange Order could see the irony in the annual bills they wrack up – some £5 million in 2011 and some £7 million in 2012. This money is coming out of the pockets of everyone, including Catholics. Catholics paying to provide security for an openly anti-Catholic organisation has echoes of a Gilbert and Sullivan opera.
4. The Orange Order holds thousands of marches each year, to recall and celebrate the Battle of the Boyne, in which the Protestant William of Orange defeated the Catholic King James and his forces. Is it really necessary to remind your Catholic/Nationalist/Republican neighbours quite so many times of this fact? Or worse still, for the Orange Order to keep reminding itself? If such a pattern of activity happened at a personal/private level, serious doubts would be raised about the psychological health of the repeating party.
5. I’m happy and flattered to hear that you read my blog – like the Bible, far more people should read it. If you’ve followed the comments on blogs I’ve posted recently, you’ll no doubt have spotted one contributor who compared Orange marches with early rock festivals. Back in the day, rock festivals were shambolic events, with music, drink, drugs and violence mixing in a sometimes lethal cocktail. Then the music industry took a grip on the situation: stadiums were rented, security staff hired. Those attending were sold tickets, alcohol and offensive weapons were confiscated before entry, and now these events are highly popular, peaceful and profitable. Why not use a similar approach with Orange marches? Hire – or even purpose-build – a stadium. Those concerned could rent it out; those attending on The Twelfth or at any other time would be charged an admission fee. Security could be hired by the promoters; and the event could be a truly family affair with as much marching and music and speeches within the stadium as was deemed necessary. This strategy would end the appalling drain on the public purse of present Orange marches and might well become a central selling point for our tourist industry.
6. I accept fully that you have decided to address me in formal rather than informal terms, Mr Humphrey. In which case, even though I would prefer a first-names relationship, in the interests of accuracy my title is ‘Dr’, not ‘Mr’.
Yours etc
Jude Collins
Jude….In the awful bear pit that is the “Nolan” show, you had no chance of getting rational ideas or debate aired. I know you struggled manly to make your points but in that situation everything blows away in the hubbub of acrimony and bitching. Nothing new there really. I really believe Nolan may be a great populist broadcaster but he does not ever appear to have the requisite background knowledge or gravity to control a “debate” . Then again the show is a bit of a lucky bag with the attempt to mix lighter popular press items with very extreme subjects.the level of hate on display is mind numbing. Nolan as chairman is no Paxman, sadly.
Jude,
I saw the Nolan show last night and thought you got to the heart of the matter. Just wanted to say “well done”. It’s always the same though when nationalists speak at a show of this type the anti Irish bias is palpable including the so called “referee”.
angela
I didn’t see any obvious anti Irish bias on Nolan’s part. Any specific examples?
Well said last night Jude. Nice to see someone call it as it is. My honest opinion is that mainstream unionism and the orange order are nowhere near up for the challenge of progress and making genuine peace. They want to go back to the good old days of unionist domination, and that’s not going to happen. That is why they are so slow to react to condemn any violence from the flag protesters, intimidation of school teachers or the targeting of cross-community events in their own community. They are determined to stall progress at all costs no matter how bad it makes them look as apparent leaders in our community. Well said again Jude.
3. It might help if those who are the supporters of the Orange Order could see the irony in the annual bills they wrack up – some £5 million in 2011 and some £7 million in 2012. This money is coming out of the pockets of everyone, including Catholics. Catholics paying to provide security for an openly anti-Catholic organisation has echoes of a Gilbert and Sullivan opera.
Im sure you see the irony of someone from a Republican perspective complaining about annual bills being wracked up remember the economic bombing campaign?
In the end though both sides will have to recognise that we have to live with each other and start to accept each others culture as it is rather than the way we wish it to be.
Neill…..The thing is you might accept this compartmentalised idea of the two “cultures”, but I believe it’s not that simple any more, in these days of world “culture” where we all share ideas , customs , literature, music, styles of dress from all parts of the world.
Okay , we are usually, initially products of a particular education ,in school and family , but growth doesn’t necessarily end there. .We have a growing hodge- podge of new first -generation nationalitys and cultures here in Ireland now and the world is still fast- changing. Thirty years ago we wouldn’t have had the ready choice of foods or fine wines from throughout the planet in our local shops and restaurants. [Anyone remember Vesta curries and Blue Nun wine?] .
Nothing stands still, and many of us can see flaws in the various interpretations of the two “traditional sides”.
I do not feel lumped into a side even though there are those who might want me to be one of them or one of us. I see bad judgement and foolishness everywhere. I see time-wasting by politicians and prevarication in the face of violence.
I have a wide range of interests which have nothing to do with most of what passes for “culture” among the warring factions. I can still voice a lone opinion though and I wish the great mass of individuals out there who don’t believe in the nonsense which passes for everyday life here would similarly voice some new ideas..As I’ve pointed out before, we are all paying the bills together, so we should all have a say in how our money is best spent. I see a lot being wasted on unnecessary thuggery which with a little pragmatism could easily be sorted out..
The reason these bills are racked up is simply due to the threat posed by republicans to parades.
Should they learn the art of tolerance and not be offended by a single drumbeat on an arterial route to the extent they shoot the police, the bills would be greatly reduced.
It is entirely possible to be Pro Protestant without being anti Catholic and I would point to the large contribution made yearly to charities who serve accross the divide by the Orange and the Socio-Economic report by DSD in 2013
Yet another educated fenian ! Poor Mr Humphrey, I can just imagine your exasperation. I blame the Catholic schools myself…
I didn’t see the Nolan Show last night which is never a disappointment as far as Stephen Nolan is concerned. His ‘non-political’ public image I view with great suspicion especially where the DUP are concerned. Had I known you were on I might have suffered him but not so sure I have could have endured William Humphrey. Poor guy has nothing going for him when even loyalists came down on the side of the Blessed Virgin when it came to “who really did put her on the bonfire!?” DUP members in their ignorance have a way of paying backhanded compliments to people. Given that he refers to his former leader as Dr which is an insult to anyone who has acquired that title through their intelligence and proven academic achievements I would prefer he called me Mr – it was after all in days gone by a way of addressing people with respect to their status or just plain ordinary human beings.
But then he wouldn’t know anything about that he is just an MLA!
One of the points Nolan and others never address is why Catholics don’t want marches through where they live. The behaviour of the bands, that, in the days before mobile phone cine cameras, has always been excused as high jinks and good hearted banter, has, in recent years been exposed for what it is, hatred of Catholics. It is that hatred which needs to be examined and addressed. There is a banner at Twaddell that states, “Stop the hatred of our culture”, perhaps it should be re-written, “Stop the hatred IN our Culture”, that would be a good start to better relations.
Great point PjD. Camera phones are showing the world just how sectarian these marches are. Why don’t they march in their own neighborhood? Me thinks that ‘triumphalism” is the lion share of the purpose for the march.
PJD… That’s what I mean about shows like “Nolan”…There’s no depth of enquiry allowed…..just loads of smoke and noise.
Technology is another thing that is shaping “culture”.We’ve all got the same video cameras in our pockets….,all able to film in real-time with our own slant on things. We can all make opinions on websites, make music and films in our own homes. We can see the violence as it happens and present the evidence but it’s rarely used properly. We get instead the sensationalist bits and pieces of imagery …”riot porn,” if you like, but no solid discussion as to how the people doing it have been twisted out of any logical shape. Why are they like that? Who taught a young person with no real knowledge of how the Troubles began…who didn’t live through the madness that anyone over sixty lived through….who taught them to hate anew for another generation? That’s got to come from within their homes and communities. Why have they not got a reasoned and balanced viewpoint? Let’s pinpoint who is spreading this kind of hatred and call it for what it is and then address it. Anyone with a bit of wit knows it’s irrational fear on display. Nobody is going to be changed in any way if we all are equal. We have to accept those common values and then argue for political preference like in any other democacy where we’re allowed to think and vote freely. There is no place for hate or hate crimes in this new coming society..
Well said Jude always on target. Perhaps the next time BBC invites you to discuss OO you could ask them why they insist on putting live coverage of 12th July processions on the journey to the “Field”, with the solemn commentary from Seamus or walter. CBS don’t cover KKK parades do they? As a license payer I strongly object to this deeply sectarian organisation being given any air time.
During the week I watched the Big Benefits Row on Channel 5 and we had Edwina Currie and Katie Hopkins using the same tactics. As with Humphrey, what gives them away is the space they give to like minded opinions but ferociously shout nonsense as something akin to putting their fingers in their ears.
As with Jude’s blog about Robinson and the genocide myth, political unionism is incapable of looking at itself in the reflection of history and they’re part in where we went.
The truth is simple, very, very simple. What they want is the clock wound back and a few less nationalists and free thinking unionists. I am very much of the mind that Chittick had modern, liberal unionism (and even loyalism) in his sites. The likes of Humphrey would hold the patrons of Skainos in no less contempt than they do nationalists and republicans.
Mr Humphrey is going to develop some very deep furrows on that brow of his if he doesn’t calm down a bit!
I think Dr Collins you called in to question the behaviour of his pride and joy!
Have you ever gone to the door of a neighbour to explain that their son “little Jimmy” has been involved in bullying and beating up some of the younger and more vulnerable children in the area only to be told angrily that “no he wasn’t” and “we don’t welcome people like you interfering” and “you have never liked our Jimmy since the day and hour you met him”? Perhaps even “there was never any trouble in the area before you came along knocking doors”!
After watching Mr Humphrey speak to you last night I had visions of being berated on that doorstep!
All the other neighbours know a parent in denial and the problems that they cause in an otherwise good neighbourhood!
The poor down trodden nationalists , if you don’t like band music or the orange order , please feel free to stay in the house for the 7 minutes it takes to pass . Simple really !
Why should they? Why should they have their movement restricted? Long, long before people took on parades areas on parade routes were in lockdown for much or parts of the day including being screened off.
These are et groups that are merely a turn off to nationalists or just Catholics but groups that exclude them by policy.
What’s more, the Orange Order is founded from a group of murdering boot boys in the Portadown area., twice banned.
Not sure we’re you are getting the orange order have thousands of marches. I think you will find they have less than a quarter of that the rest are made up of band competitions. And I see as usual bands are all being tarred with the 1 brush a few bands misbehave and everyone is the same. The band scene must be 1 of the biggest youth movements in the world were kids learn how to play an instrument and discipline. They also have a zero drugs policy. Kids get to travel all over Northern Ireland playing there music. Also what about the money these bands spend on there travels they hire buses they spend in the shops and the stalls yes they buy drink in pubs but everywhere they go they are not allowed to drink in the streets.
Every ‘parade’ that occurs in the town that I live in are preceded by supporters with blue bags full of alcohol and end with copious amounts of inebriated youths in band uniform behvin in an unruly and quite often intimidating manner.
I really don’t see this positive side of the ‘band culture’ you speak of…We dread the ‘parade’ season and quite often many of the locally owned shops close their doors before the mayhem begins at the end of these family events providing the big supermarkets with the profits on the sales of alcoholic beverages.
Well that just goes to show, only a day or so ago I was asking why you weren`t on the tv more often and lo and behold…….sitting beside Jamie, the gift that keeps on giving. The same Jamie who condemned Gerry Kelly for refusing to apologise for his IRA past while he himself is a UVF groupie. As for mister Humphry, he really should get a grip before it is too late, going on about the reformed faith. Please., Fact is, the Orange Order is part of the problem, not the solution. The twelfth of July is a hate fest, nothing more nothing less. I thought you made your points well Jude. Well played.
what in the name of god was Gerry Kelly thinking about giving those 2 bigots any time or recognition or Nolan for that matter it seemed to me that he had three opponents one of which was Nolan himself, but there is a bigger picture here and what is going at Ardoyne , north Belfast, east Belfast. LAST year according to news reports Billy Hutchinson led 10,000 people dressed in old U.V.F attire around east Belfast to celebrate 1912 and the covenant and the foundation of the U.V.F.this to my mind was a show of strength and a warning to the police and unionist politicians that they were not going to allow the peace process Continue and have raised the flag NO SURRENDER TO FENIAN S OR NATIONALIST OR REPUBLICANS and i am of an age to remember 1968/69 when we had a similar situation led by the D.U.P,Paisley, and Gusty Spence/ U.V.F. AND THE OO .
So whats the difference in 2014 and then we don’t have the RUC/B,SPECIALS but we still have a police force made up of 60% protestant plus a large number of ex RUC SPECIAL BRANCH back in on contract then Minister Ford changes the criteria of appointing the chief constable, question are we going back to those times or are we going forward , are the British government and Irish government going to allow a gang of bully boys rule the north as they did in 1922.
In 1996 i had a conversion with a high ranking Irish politician and his mantra was peace will work and no more violence we and the British will never let it happen again !!! I wonder about that!! no sign of Villers or Kenny standing up to them and Baggott is on the way out and if Ford gets his way we might have a ex RUC man at the top so where does that leave nationalist . sorry to be so bleak but the unionist don’t want peace or justice or equality as they say this our wee country Catholics need not apply we live in dangerous times especially as we have the marching season starting soon
Jeez Jude you have had a rough 24 hours first the Nolan show and then big Wullie decided to have a go too. Its just as well their rants come across quite comical. Even Gerry Kelly appears savvy compared to the so called loyalist/unionist leaders Nolan scrapes off the street week in week out.
Jude for First Minister!
Could I thank the many contributions from readers – including those who disagree with me. Your ideas are all welcome. But could I just add that the contribution from Barbara McCarry shows outstanding judgment and wisdom. I’ll settle for half the pay-packet…
Is this a mutual admiration society between you and Barbara,Jude?!!
I know intelligence and good judgement when I see it. Good looks too, I expect….
On the money again Jude. Most of the comments have covered my thoughts but I would like to add my own voice of dissent for Mr Nolan. His programme offers little to serious debate and since the beginning of the flag protests it has provided a platform for unelected bigots to spout their sectarian bile with little opportunity for any voice of reason to be heard.
I would agree with that Pat. I really cannot understand why Nolan is such a big deal. There is never any depth in his “shock jock” style of programme. He butts in when someone is making a coherent point and then sits back and allows squabbling to fill and blot out valuable minutes of airtime. Of all the people in his recent audience he picks someone like this “Jamie” character, out of the crowd, who, let’s face it ,may be a local “tribal” face in a small part of Belfast but is simply a little squeaky boy to the rest of the country and the world. Who promoted this street kid to speak eloquently [!] and voice his opinion about anything? There’s really nothing nothing new to learn from his diatribes and[ for one so young] he does not appear to own any new and progressive ideas. How did the revolutionary thinking of the past fifty years spawn such a throwback to mundanity?
. By the same token , someone like Jude ,with a lifetime of experience, first-hand knowledge of the history of the events and well-educated in the” facts”[as opposed to the fantasy] of life here over the past century, is given a tiny moment to develop some complicated points.
Nolan is simply not the place for in-depth debate. Then , of course he wheels on the clowns and suddenly we have an old guy in his underwear amping up the circus atmosphere of his show .
As was also pointed out, Gerry Kelly comes off looking like a sage in this kind of situation. if you didn’t laugh, you’d cry.,The show ends …mind empty….,
Personally I think Gerry Kelly is quite an articulate speaker, he made a brilliant point to Humphrey when he asked him if these protests were against dissident Republicans! He is also usually outnumbered on these sorts of programmes. Jamie Bryson sounds more and more ludicrous every time he speaks (squeaks?) and his call for Sinn Fein to go away was just daft.
my point is that this program is is not balanced and when you have 3 to 1 on a panel which includes the presenter then the BBC have questions to answer but then again the BBC have always carried a certain bias against the nationalist population ie GAA sports etc yet can televise the 12th parades every year no such cover for the West Belfast festival where a lot of very good things happen in the line of cross community events and discussions /understanding
The bbc do show GAA games however i believe they dont hold the main rights to the matches
that’s because they wont do the deal with the gaa or rte to televise all other matches outside the ulster championship nor will they do a Sunday game type program to help promote gaa games they are BBC NI but don’t fully serve the whole community of northern Ireland as they should in a divided society
Another Jude : I’m not saying that Gerry Kelly is not articulate and is not good at articulating his points ..quite the opposite really. whether you should support his viewpoint or not is a personal choice. He generally presents logical points very well. Let’s face it though, the opposition on the panel was all over the place as far as hanging onto logic was concerned. The point is ,Gerry doesn’t need to be intellectually challenged when the opposing viewpoint is built on sand and doesn’t appear to be lucid. Yeah , that situation makes him look really on top of things.No contest.
Unionism , whether it has a valid political position or not , had tunnelled itself, in its many forms, into a hole where even someone of the intellectual heft of Mr. Haass can’t convince them of their need to escape to the future. When the best of them can’t let go of the past , what chance does this little motley crew have .
They obviously believe that dissident republicans are still in thrall to the likes of Gerry Kelly when it’s obvious to everyone that he has nothing to gain by their presence and that Sinn Fein can really only exist in the 21st century without them..They just don’t get it!
The panel was obviously out of balance, but I don’t think it’s a nefarious BBC game plan to put one up the Shinners. If it was, I’m afraid it had the opposite effect.There are plenty of paranoids on both sides who believe that Aunty BBC is giving themmuns more balance than our ones. This is a product of living in small incestuous communities and seeing only a narrow point of view. Anything beyond that colloquial “norm” is an attack.[ i could refer to the recent “History of the Bible” debacle to give another flavour of this mindset] ..or the reports on Catholic Church abuses of power…
I think the BBC actually tries to present the facts but many people in Northern Ireland live in fantasy scenarios already, based on their particular religious upbringing and this essentially impacts on their critical skills and logical faculties.
If for example , you can believe in a great big god in the sky somewhere, it’s no stretch to squeak “For god and Ulster” thoughtlessly and without one iota of irony.It all starts right there.
Nolan , too is a relatively young man who presents a persona of the “everyman ulserman” but I really have not been impressed with any wealth of knowledge from him.either. He seems to love the lowest common -denominator. On his radio and television shows he appears to have scant knowledge of music or culture . If we are to believe him , he knows nothing about his neighbours south of the border never mind world culture. This may be a knowing joke on his part[ a pretence to endear himself to the masses] but I’m not so sure. I really think he is quite one-dimensional in many respects…so what do we expect from his show?