Sometimes you have to laugh. And laugh and laugh and then laugh some more. Today’s Scottish Sunday Herald provides just such a tickle-stick. It’s talking about a possible link between our little contorted corner and the Scottish referendum.
To move sideways for a momement: if you want an insider’s view on the Scottish referendum, let me recommend the blog of an old classmate who’s been living in Scotland for around forty years – John Patton (you can find him at http://phototilly.eu ). He makes the point in a recent blog that the Better Together campaign in Scotland is creaking at the seams, such is the dissension between the Tories and Labour and the Lib Dems, all Better Together bedfellows. And then there’s the even fiercer loathing within the Scottish Labour party between the Blairites and the Brownites. In another posting, he points to the changed complexion of the Union, should Scotland vote for independence.
In other words, unionists from the north of Ireland have a dog in the Scottish referendum fight. When I interviewed Ian Paisley Jr (I want to say ‘Ian Óg Paisley’ but I gather that’s non-PC or something) for my book Whose Past Is It Anyway?, he spoke with enthusiasm about how good it would be if, like the men of the 1912 Covenant, today’s unionists could contribute to the preservation of Scotland within the Union. I make a point of never laughing while I’m interviewing people, regardless of what they say, and I continued that when talking to Mr Paisley.
Which brings me back to the hilarious article in today’s Sunday Herald. It appears that the Orange Order plans a mass parade/march in Edinburgh on the eve of the referendum, urging Scots to vote No. The Scottish Orange Order’s Grand Master Henry Dunbar says the Order is “fervently opposed” to Scotland going independent. “We are primarily a Christian and charitable fraternal organisation – we rarely step into the political arena. However…I remain convinced that with your help, the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland can help ensure that we remain ‘British Together’ “.
Now, if you can gather yourself from the floor after reading the bit about the Christian and charitable fraternal organisation that rarely steps into the political arena, come with me and hear how the ‘Better Together’ coalition, already being pulled to bits internally, reacts to the Orange Order’s plans:
“This organisation isn’t part of our campaign and never will be. The best way for people who believe that we are stronger and better together as part of the UK to get involved is by speaking to undecided voters, not marching in the streets.”
You can almost hear their thoughts screaming “Oh please, no, no, NO! We’re in deep enough poopooes!” Better not so much together, then, as mile ’n’ miles away.
The Yes campaign, trying not to break into a tap-dance of delight, says “We fully respect that others have a different view and support their democratic right to express it in any legitimate and peaceful way they wish.” Translated: Come on boys, do come on! Please shout loudly that you’re part of the No!”
It’s like that old advertisement for combatting bad breath: even your best friend won’t tell you. Nobody wants to tell the Orange Order and other unionists from here that they need their helping hand but in the case of the Orange Order, they’d prefer to opt for an ice-axe in the skull. Oh dear. It’d be tragic if it weren’t so guffaw-inducing. With friends like these…
Alex Salmond could not have wished for better news than hearing about the Orange Order supporting the union and queering the pitch…….
Hi Jude
Just reading your blog there, put another record on PLEASE? Have you ever anything nice to say about people, that are not from your side of the fence.
I don’t know if it was not for PROTESTANTS Peter Robinson, the OO. What other topic would you comment on!
Tell me something nice PR, OO etc have done and I promise I’ll write about it…Looking forward to hearing from you.
The sad thing is you wouldn’t everybody on this blog know that
As previously stated, I really did expect something different from this site, I read less venomous hatred of anything Protestant/British on An Phoblacht, you ridicule anyone who has a pro British stance and consistently take the moral high ground, you really are a sad, sad, man
Jude
A quick glance at their website tells me the OO in addition to their efforts for charities also have an educational outreach programme to schools from both communities.
Why not check it out and see if it meets your ‘nice’ criteria or not?
It might make an interesting piece.
Undoubtedly there are positive voices for engagement with Catholics in the Order, but I know of opposition from leadership and accusations of Lundy and of dilution by engaging perceived Irish traditions. Sorry for lack of specifics.
Depressing, but emblematic of the various cul de sacs political Unionism has allowed itself to be marched into.
It was looking over the shoulder, fear of the Lundy accusation, that put Reverend Mervin on the DUP negotiating team, and promoted such obviously seventh-rate talent as Bryson & Frazer to influence.
Fear and anger are, to use a phrase, ‘inextricably linked’, & common to all those, from the southern States to South Africa, whose cultural & intellectual inheritance is from the Right, or tinged with superiority.
How commonly we hear on the news of “unionist fury”. One of the things that made the Adams detention so novel was that we’re just so unused to hearing that nationalists are angry. Indeed, the mainstream media have approached every single political initiative from Sunningdale to Haas through the prism of Unionist anger at it, as if the possibility of considering nationalist sensibilities or offence never even crosses their minds.
It was fear & anger that Robinson sought to exploit by negligently carpeting East Belfast with the anti-Naomi Long leaflets that lit the flag protest conflagration.
It’s all a product of what I call Unionist Exceptionalism, and it’s not good for Unionists, never mind the rest of us.
Maybe Basil’s NI21 is the future for Unionism?
———————————————————————
On a separate point, it’s important not to say Ian Og because it’s no better than the Twadell ‘civil rights’ camp calling the Mayor Martin Millar. Unionists do not need help to get angry, so, in the words of Tarantino, “Everybody be cool!!”
RE your last point, Thomas, I declare myself converted. For now anyway.Re the rest I’m in total agreement. What I want to know is, why has coverage of the coming elections received such minimal coverage on RTÉ. BBC NI is a bit better but not an awful lot. (Btw, I saw your letter to the Irish Times – timely and much-needed.Maith thú!
‘an educational outreach programme to schools from both communities.’ Do they offer any evidence of this ?
Antonio
For their charitable work I am sure there is some sort of account.
As for the outreach they just make the claim. I have no idea what it is like in practice.
That is why I am suggesting Jude should don his battered trilby and do some investigating.
Of course it is easier just to pander to assumptions.
You’re spot-on, Jude; in racing parlance, as they enter the straight, neither side wants extra baggage and the NO Camp certainly doesn’t seek this company. To extend the metaphor, they will want to put some distance between them and LOL. They have enough dead weights to carry already. I suspect that no group in Northern Ireland really wants them either but, for the Unionists, the problem is in finding a way to jettison them greacefully and keep their votes.
Norma, Norma when you speak of records I read your posts and they have Reactionary written all over them. Jude has presented you with quite a challenge indeed! Kafka would find it a daunting challenge to transmorph the OO from Cochroaches (sp) into Men (know your place woman as the brethren decree), of substance and progressive reconcilliatory tendencies, promoting Peace, Equality, Community rejuvenation, a balwark also against the Tory Attack on the poor and a gallant campaigner for the disinfranchised, marginalised, downtrodden and vulnerable, Righteous with only the hopes and dreams of a bonded united society free from dischord and virulently opposed to such elements who would challeng any elements who would contest their politically Ecumenical agenda as the endeavour to rip out the black heart of Sectarianism that causes such untold misery hurt fear and Death in this fair land. Sorry Norma, Carlsberg dont do bending of reality (apart from the fact that all their adverts really do) but if they did theyd need to disinter Kafka, clone his DNA and administer hellusinogens freely before publish his new take on this Reality. I mean no personal sslight to you, but it really is difficult to defend that which Reason vigorously and forensically proves otherwise in the edicts actions and deeds of this loathsome Leviathan….I eagerly await your response to Judes trifling challenge lol1798
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/loyalist-band-leaves-tribute-to-young-gaa-player-killed-in-accident-1-5999406
This for a start perhaps I should explain it you as you might have left school at 14?
As for Scotland, we should be promoting the Brethren here to pick their best lodges, accompanied with the usual loyalist murder gang named bands who respectably march with them, and buy their tickets. Alex Salmond would probably donate some of his Oil revenue dosh towards equal social housing in North Belfast in Gratitude to the community group who could encourage such a coup for the yes camp.
The Scottish Orange Order Grand Master says ‘we rarely step into the political arena’. The thing is this is actually true in Scotland. While the Scottish Orange Order will have members with strong political opinions (the question of how strong their arguments are is a different matter) as an organisation it does not involve itself in politics any where near the extent of it’s N.Irish counterpart.
One main explanation of this is, unsurprisingly, that most Scottish political parties keep it at arms length, as explained by Jude, because they know it would be electoral suicide to align themselves with such an organisation in a country where roughly one-quarter of the population are at least nominally Catholic.
Yes Antonio
I spent a good deal of time on a Scottish related site and came to the conclusion that a large majority of Scottish people regarded the Orange Order as an embarrassing anachronism. Which of course makes one think highly of their common sense.
Hi Jude/ Francie D
Well if anything comes out of this blogging I am certainly getting educated. I actually had to look up KAFKA. Metamorphosis by none other than Franz Kafka.
I take it you have some PhD, or maybe even a masters?
Oh I know all about it, my brother and sisters have them coming out of their back sides. Like when my Mother died last year, I was told read Terry Pratchets Disc World, this would help me come to terms with death.
I don’t have any qualifications, so please keep it simple. I am not stupid either, as Paddycool said, back sometime ago we all have different attributes!
The way I see it is really simple.
1/ The PROTESTANTS did keep the Catholics down, and did not share.
2/ The PIRA responded, with brutality beyond compare. The whole thing escalated out of control.
3/ People now are left scared, and battle weary. With no forgiveness and hard hearts.
4/ Not one side holds the moral compass over the other now?
Should Scotland go independent, which I don’t think they will, and we do not have that long to wait for the outcome?
So Francie D, back to what I originally said, everything that is griped about is, flags, poppies, HM Elizabeth2nd, OO BANDS. Basically anything to do with my kith and kin.
I will be watching the elections this month, and that should be a good barometer of how people really behave here, on both sides of the divide.
As a point if interest do you think any Catholics vote Alliance?
As I told you before I left school at 15, 1969 that fateful year that would turn this country not statelet, I find that truly offensive , into a nightmare.
I am currently reading F.J.M.Madden The History of Ireland I have read some things I knw nothing about. And in some respects I can understand why the Unionists would be paranoid.
I was also shocked to discover the first hunger strikes and internments, and even the banning of the IRA was under De Valera.
Hi Norma
There were of course hunger strikes, internment and the IRA was a proscribed organisation while Eamon DeValera was An Taoiseach. As far as I can remember most if not all of these actions were taken by DeValera during World War 2 when the Dublin Government were committed to a neutrality stance (although the state was very much in favour of an Allied victory) and they feared the IRA could threaten this perception of Irish neutrality as a rump of what was left of the IRA after the Civil War were determined to bomb English cities.
Although these were not the first hunger strikes or use of internment against IRA suspects. The earliest hunger strike in Ireland I am aware of was by was by the Mayor of Cork City Terrence McSweeney in 1920 during the ‘war of independence’. Internment was commonly used by the British State throughout the late 19th century against the IRB (irish Republican Brotherhood, also known as ‘The Fenians)
Norma, you are my favourite commentator here. Keep up the good work.
And you mean that so much jude
Me again Jude,
Can you, or any of your friends explain something to me. You say you came back from Canada after several years of living there.
Did you see the border between the USA and Canada. It’s just one piece of land right, and they nearly even sound alike, (my neighbor sounds just like a yank, I purposely left the u out) then you have the Mexicans and they do look and sound quite different.
The point is Eire should throw her lot in with us, and come back into the United Kingdom.
How many Mummy’s buy their little girls tiaras and princess dresses, we can offer you the real deal?
Better than a republic any day. You can even see the changing of the guards at a real palace or castle.
You get my drift here!
Norma
Your point “Eire should throw her lot in with us, and come back into the United Kingdom.”
Is hilarious and hard to understand how any Unionist/loyalist could be so naive to believe that will ever become a reality again.
Not to mention, when the Scots vote yes, the UK as we know it will cease to exist. If you know anything about Irish history Norma you will know why your point will never happen.
Norma, I found your choice of the word “statelet ” as causing you offence? I occurs to me that when you Cite Poppies, Elizabeth Windsor flags and to OO as basically being representative of Your Protestant identity under attack, you seem to omit the reality that about half the people in this part of Ireland do not wish to be an appendage of the UK. We were never, nor our Parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents asked our opinion about being trapped in this little Unionist fifedom since the Country was Partitioned. I however am not offended by you referiing to the six Counties as a country. As for the queen, I have Unionist friends who wince in enbarassment at the OTT fauning engaged in by toadying Royalists in Ireland. Poppies are a symbol of division not out of disrespect for the futilely slaughtered in the madness that was the Great War, but their continued support for British Colonial, then Post Colonial, then every other engagement of military adventurism the British State has engaged in right up to the illegal war in Iraq with the subsequent horror that has ensued without respite as a result of this scramble for control of the Oil. I cannot endorse such support for such a military machine. A goodfriend of mine from Yorkshire Iintroduced we to the alternate white lily which symbolic of quiet remembrance and reflection rthat Wars are bad things to be avoided in general. That such a compromise could be made and understood would garner much mutual respect. As for the Orange Order Norma, they must be faced down with their inherently antagonistic sectarianism. We can unite on things we agree on, and respect each other on differences of constitutional alleigences, where we cannot meet is in compromising on equaliry and any institution like the Orange, who vehemently resist it. To conclude on the Poppy issue, the Ballymurphy Massacre and many other murders by the British Army in Ireland, make it less than popular to whole swaves of people across Ireland and Particularly the north.
Francie D
I am quite sure we have more in common that unites us? I honestly know nothing about the OO. You kindly omitted the USA which took the Uk into war, and I think how sad it is that those young men lost their lives for what.
As for the Poppy, my Mothers father left here for Second World War, fell at Dunkirk, captured and ended up a POW in Berlin and died 3 weeks before the yanks liberated them. I am proud to wear my poppy.
On tonight’s news a man 42 years of age, willfully destroyed a war memorial and ripped up the poppy wreath!!! Why would any one do that. I do not know what is to become of us. I am staying here in this little part of Ireland, I am as passionate about it as you are.
Another thing I am passionate about is the Queen, I know her life is coming to an end, and she is in the winter of her life. She has been my Queen from before I was born, and I am 60 in a couple of weeks. What a woman, my breasts fill with pride, sure you have not got a clue what I am talking about, mores the pity for you, I have lots of Catholics friends love her.
Respect is what we all need a good dose of, respect for each other’s traditions, values, religion.
I am Irish, I love the Irish, I am proud to be Irish, I was born in the North of this Island, this was the hand, that was dealt to me.
Or as you would say I am colonial Irish, either way I am staying here for good, and so is my children, grandchildren, and god willing great grandchildren.
Peace out bro?
Nothing much to argue against here, the OO are not well liked in Scotland (the 12th is a day of dread for many in Glasgow, I’ve been to a few of them and was always uncomfortable) and their march will be detrimental to the no campaign.
This will be a tremendous shot in the arm for Independence.
It’s another example of Unionism’s lack of pragmatism.
Whenever a situation arises unionists should be able to analyse something strategically and decide if it will be to the advantage of the union or the disadvantage.
If it is to the disadvantage then it should be discounted.
But alas, they don’t seem to see it that way.
Now, a number of unionists are going to march through a beautiful city, there’ll be rabble shipped in from all over the country (a harsh term, but I’m speaking from personal experience here and SOME (NOT ALL!) of the hangers-on for these bands can only be described as such) and it’ll potentially push people from a undecided vote into a ‘yes’ vote.
I recommend a course in psychology, marketing and PR for unionist leaders and the Orange Order.
They say all our DNA on this Island is the same North South East West, it’s all got a certain amount of Viking Saxon, etc etc
Try these names out big mouth last week Bobby Storey, Sandes, Adams.Hughes. Anderson. All good names with a hint of Protestant/ Britishness, we are all bastardized mongrels like it or not, why even the indigenous people here were pagans and had no religion at all.
Do you think Ian Paisley is Bobby Storeys Da, I seen the resemblance.
Sorry Norma, but those names you cited are just anglicised versions of Ó Storaigh, Ó Seachnasaigh, Mac Ádhaimh, Mac Aoidh and Mac Andair, nothing British going on there, and a language doesn’t have a religion, its just a language. It’s speakers may hold particular religious beliefs, but not because of the language they speak.
No it is a fact Bobby Sandes father was a Protesrant, you would be surprised just how strong the vain is.
Perhaps that is why the Church of Rome insisted, when two people meet from different religions, the one must change and bring the children up in the faith.
A form of ethnic cleansing really.
Me, I am married to a Catholic, I kept my religion which is the church of IRELAND.
Funny really when you think about it, here you are not wanting to be dominated by England. I don’t want dominated by Rome.
My family fought. Nazism for freedom of tyranny . The Irish in the free state stayed neutral and now they are under the boot from Germany.
I am not laughing come back to the United Kingdom. Scotland is going no where, just a few radicals making a lot if noise.
Empty vessel syndrome .
WE ARE STRONGER TOGETHER. Come on think about it, why has no one thought of this before. ??
So to all my comrades out there ( a word I detest). STEADY THE BUFFS, HOLD YOUR NERVE. PREPARE MAKE READY
Jude et al :
I came in late on this one but i see the good old – fashioned vitriol flying about like ravens..Am Ghob gets it right, I think. The Orange Order appears to have very little insight as to their perception outside their own tight cabal…and before William gets the bit in his teeth, I’d feel the same if it was a Nationalist/Catholic organisation behaving in a similar fashion…
Most people who know their background and the acrimony that they have inspired on the streets in Ireland would be adverse to hitching their wagon anywhere near that influence. Of course not everyone in the Orange Order could be a a villainous, racist, bigoted ,misogynistic cretin , all dressed up in in a quackery of an ill-fitting costume ,redolent of the circus around the turn of the nineteenth century…..accompanied with bashing , tootling toytown marching bands.all grunting , spewing and pissing on any Roman Catholic harbinger of Popery….
No…I imagine there are quite a few good men who are stout-hearted , easy-going family guys who only see a friendly day out with the lads and their friends and family ..maybe a light beer , a cup of tea and a plateful of egg and onion sandwiches to finish…..they’ve probably known little different throughout their family history.
These good-hearted family men have allowed themselves to be led by the nose into gatecrashing parties where they are not wanted .They haven’t tried to rein in their more rabid fellows and by their silence have given them even more encouragement to misbehave.
Given what has happened in Ireland at places like Drumcree or Twaddell , where anyone with a bit of wit would say …”Stop digging! ..You’re in a deep enough hole…time to go home and have a cup of tea before you make an even bigger eegit of yourself”….they have learned nothing and continue make the same mad decisions….Yes, it is the stuff of satirical books and films….Check out Alan Bleasdale’s film, “No Surrender” from 1985 to see how far this joke can be taken for a run …
Now we have the Scottish referendum….Any reasonable person seeing these same malcontents coming to the party would be rushing to hide the silverware….It’s like that mad uncle at the wedding that everyone wants to avoid…A little bit of wit would go a long way but there’s little evidence of it.
Norma’s back …. and thankfully giving as good as she gets. I wouldn’t agree with much that Norma holds dear but as she says herself , she’s coming from a different place and her education was limited .Given that she left school at a young age at a time of mad social disruption, she’s done alright . There are many of a similar vintage and background who haven’t yet learned to turn on a computer.She has her own story and has travelled outside of this little pond and probably seen stuff that some of the younger commentators never will…so she has a right to her opinion and we have a right to argue them too…
Sometimes she articulates her points poorly but she has every right to climb onto this same little dung heap and crow like the rest of us.
There’s not a lot to argue with :
“…The way I see it is really simple.
1/ The PROTESTANTS did keep the Catholics down, and did not share.
2/ The PIRA responded, with brutality beyond compare. The whole thing escalated out of control.
3/ People now are left scared, and battle weary. With no forgiveness and hard hearts.
4/ Not one side holds the moral compass over the other now?
Should Scotland go independent, which I don’t think they will, and we do not have that long to wait for the outcome? ”
I wouldn’t agree with a blind love of any kind of “Royal” family …in any country. We all know how they get into that position in the first place and most of those families perceive that their prime position was granted them courtesy of a benign god to look after the rest of us . Much as Henry argued himself into a schism of Catholicism and broke away to form his own church .Unfortunately that belief in a “God” is something that makes little sense to me in the 21st century.
Norma is right in that she basically says we were all racial mongrels of some sort too.
Of course we are .We were all spawned in the heart of Africa and spread gradually to colonise the planet, mating , changing and adjusting gradually to deal with the changing climates.Our DNA connections can be found in all races . Apparently many of us have a connection to Genghis Khan…
Norma , by the way , the pagans had a religion every bit as real as Christianity and many of our now Christian feast days have been welded onto past pagan celebrations such as Easter and Christmas. The days of the week are still named after a plethora of ancient Norse gods such as{ W Odin, Thor and Freya…not to forget planet gods such as the Sun and Saturn…..It’s a wonder our fundamentalist friends haven’t yet lobbied to have those old pagan days of the week renamed.
Norma,
The Unionists told us they did not want to be ruled from Rome, but what did we get, Protestant ministers sitting in parliaments and councils, like a prototype of the Taliban. The Orange Order running the six counties as a religious community where Catholics were kept down. What hypocrisy. Britain was quite happy to rule Ireland as a single country until the people voted them out and then they changed the rules. The so called `law and order` brigade were guilty of treason and imported guns from Germany. Germany…tut tut. Incidentally, how come none of those traitors (Carson, Craig etc) were hanged for their treachery? Double standards then and as the Gerry Adams farce shows double standards now.
How is it that a critique of the DUP/OO gets reinterpreted as a critique of Protestants in general? I don’t think there’s anyone on here that has a problem with Protestants, the British or the many aspects of the rich and wonderful culture that Britain has given the world. The DUP/OO on the other hand…
To Paddykool.
I really do like you, even though I do not know you from Adam .
You speak good with a tongue which appeals to me. Even though you patronized me. I had to show my husband who is educated how to record from his iPhone from Dublin? (On sky TV)
I never took exams at school to fail them. I did however pass exams after leaving school and learn to drive.
I am fully house trained and can sit at a table laid for 7 courses.
I love all your points of view a lot makes sense.
It is good to talk, better than killing each other.
Thanks for your comments Paddykool from Eliza Dolittle
Glad to hear you are back and keeping well Norma!
Not meaning to patronise in any way Norma …I’m just seeing facts on a page here. There are many of my friends and acquaintances who are very reluctant around learning anything new or embracing technology.
Some have never embraced it.I fear that had i not had teenage children back in the 1990’s I would have been reticent too. it was my sister who also pointed out that with my arty background I’d love the creative side of technology too. …So I taught myself how to build websites back in the days of dial-up connections , when it wasn’t so easy, and by trial and error learned to do all those things that infants and children now take for granted..
It helps to have an open mind to fully enjoy life , should it be listening to very new or very old music or simply teaching yourself a craft , skill or an idea that you were previously afraid to learn or contemplate..
As I said somewhere before , I have various professional friends and family members who couldn’t hang a picture straight or fix a fuse.
Yeah Paadycool,
I agree yet again, my daughter is 40, I bought her a computer in 1982, goodness that’s almost 32 years ago. An Amstrad CPC464 with coloured monitor. I love being with young people, I love technology, if your mind is not gend in your sunk.
I must go Paddykool because I am starting to fall in love with you to? Cyber love your my first.
Norma
Paddykool do you intend hogging Norma at the Christmas dance? There are others here you know…..Ah well, bags I Virginia…..
I never said a dicky bird, A . Jude!!!!!!!!
Look you guys – this is NOT a dating site. What you do with your free time is your own business. But here, let’s try to keep it respectable. Although at the same time, that Norma…