So now we know the DUP were shown a high old time by David Cameron, even as Gerry Adams was being arrested and subjected to a four-day interrogation. And we know that David Cameron didn’t have the DUP over to his place because he liked listening to their version of Ulster-Scots. He was looking to have them on-side, because of the chance that the next Westminster parliament might be a hung one and the DUP could give him vital support.
For which support the DUP will get? Well, if you were a cock-eyed optimist you’d say something that would benefit all of the people here: a financial injection into the creaking health service, or more money so our schools can deliver a new and better generation. Even lower corporation tax might do. But somehow I don’t believe that’s what the DUP hope to get in exchange. Chances are the DUP will be looking for something glittering to present to the group of men who, annually, get together with other men and dress up. And then go out and disrupt everyone else’s life.
If something on marching is their aim, then a word in your ear, chaps: mind your step. Because the Tories have a record of being brutally two-faced with unionism. Remember Maggie Thatcher being your best-est friend – only then she hit them with the Anglo-Irish Agreement. And then there was that famous occasion in 1993 when John Major told the House of Commons that his stomach would turn at the thought of negotiations with the IRA. Knowing full well that all the time, his government was in intense communication with the IRA.
And remind me: who was it closed up the old Stormont? Ah, that’d be the Tories. And who folded the old 1980s Assembly? Ah, that’d be the Tories too. The blunt truth is, the Tories are capable of stitching up the DUP and unionism generally, before they’ve had time to realise what’s being done to them.
The Haass talks, you’ll remember, foundered. And they foundered not on the past but on parades. So what the DUP may well hope for a leg-up on is concessions for men in bowler hats and the occasional culture of urinating outside Catholic churches,
”What a fool I was, and so was Ulster! and so was Ireland! for I was used as a pawn in the game of getting the Tories back into the power of government” Edward Carson, 1921.
The Relief of Derry is not the same anymore.
You are spot on Jude, I could not agree with you more.
Just one thing though, the urinating, yes yes yes they are brain dead, stupid people, bigoted nasty hateful people.
But you are not going to like this, DARKLEY
people praying in church mowed down like the gangsters from an Al Capone film, or Enniskillen blew up for laying a wreath, to remember their dead.
No winners no one is innocent in this quagmire, not one side above the other.
I have been known to slip into chapel to have a we quite word with God, I am not happy when these people do this on the house of God.
Last but not least I have told you many times I will not be voting DUP, I would have voted Sinn Fein but for the fact they are a united Ireland party.
Before I go is there a hint of jealousy that the DUP were invited to have tea at number 10.
I was really really green when MMcG met the Queen so so unfair.
The nearest I have come to that was tea with The Lord Mayer Ian Adamson in his parlour at city hall.
But better than that tea at the Mount Nelson in Cape Town.
For every one finger you point out there is three on the same hand pointing back, I feel you are both doing and bringing out a lot of whataboutery in me.
We are all on the wrong course, we need to find the road that brings us together, forgive each other, forgive each other our trespasses it’s all in the Lord’s Prayer.
Norma
A load of election leaflets plopped through the letterbox this morning. We received the following…
1 x Diane Dodds – ‘Standing Up For Northern Ireland’
1 x Anna Lo – ‘Step Forward on 22nd May’
1 x Jim Allister – ‘A Man Who Gets Things Done!’
2 x NI Conservatives – ‘Securing Northern Ireland’s Future’
1 x Ross Brown – ‘Working For The Common Good’
2 x UUP Council Candidate – ‘Doing What’s Right For Northern Ireland’
All but two of those will have been wasted on us. I’ll let you guess which two.
They make for fascinating reading, mind you. On the back of the Diane Dodds leaflet, next to a photo of her good self and under the headline ‘Vote DUP: Because Division Costs Unionism’ it reads
“While nationalists unite around two parties unionism risks being divided and and splintered across more than six. That’s bad for unionism and bad for Northern Ireland. Split votes mean lost power and lost influence. In this election give your first preference vote to Diane Dodds and then vote for other unionist candidates of your choice.”
From this I think it might be safe to deduce that the DUP Catholic Outreach Programme (DUPCOP for short) has been put on the back burner for the time being. Also, another bit of the leaflet says ‘Do You Need Transport To The Polls?’ and gives a telephone number to call. This leads me to deduce that many potential DUP voters are elderly or infirm and need assistance with travel.
You can learn a lot from reading election leaflets.
Unionists attack each other in tv and radio studios, accuse each other of being Lundys and betraying `ulster` yet when it comes to election time, they tell their respective supporters to vote for the other Unionists. Sort of proves they are more sectarian than Nationalists, otherwise we would have the Shinners and the Stoops helping each other. The term `pan Nationalist front` was a common one a few years ago, round the time Ulster Resistance (hello Peter…..) were in league with the UDA/UVF and weapons were brought into the north, weapons that were used to slaughter Catholics.
An addendum to that original post. Said UUP Council Candidate turned up at our house today. She gave me her leaflet, I thanked her and wished her luck. Our first local council candidate coming to our door. How exciting! Still haven’t received anything from SF, SDLP, NI21 and the others. Anyone would think I lived in a Protestant area.
Update Number 2. SF and SDLP leaflets arrived today. Haven’t had time to read them yet.
Jude you are beyond parody
Jude :
Well , let’s face it …It’s only politics. A little lie here , a bigger lie there.. Dear old Paxman had politicians all to rights [He’ll be sadly missed} .His theory is that a natural politician is a particular genetic breed …much like a shih tzu…. They are prone to bending the truth. His theory is that when they are at most innocently open-faced, that is when they are telling the biggest lies.
It doesn’t seem to matter whether they be Tory or Labour either . Should it be Tony Blair lying to mothers on TV about Weapons of Mass Destruction when their sons were facing the conflict in Iraq or just any politician fiddling his or her expenses and lying through their teeth. I suppose to be a politician it takes a brutal kind of naked ambition anyway , so no surprises there.
I don’t think the DUP were remotely surprised when the On The Runs deal came out , for instance. They must surely have expected some kind of backroom deals when after all Adams and Marty had been wrestling with various PMs in the backrooms for twenty years ,trying to bring the war machine to an equitable ,rumbling stop and save face all around.
The upcoming war in the Middle East was going to divide their attention anyway and split their limited forces between Ireland and the Middle East,, so the timing was right. Of course nations with armies to keep busy still need testing grounds of war to keep their warblades sharp , so the time was ripe for a change there too. Munitions makers still need to keep up production else their factories will lie fallow too.All those considerations
The DUP are working in similar territory now with Cameron….how to sort out the Orange Order and this Haass thing and save face at the same time. They’ll expect a reward of course. Maybe Cameron will agree to build my Marching Stadium…something to rival the re-energised Croke Park.Maybe they’ll agree to build it at the Maze and dedicate it to everyone who has fallen during this past forty years….
There you go Jude. You bring out the whataboutery in Norma. And you always annoy poor Neil, who in his annoyance NEVER puts forth counter arguments. Just glib comments.
You have many strange powers, Mr Collins!!
But you are correct. Expect the Orange Card to be played relatively soon. And to think we hoped it had been removed from the deck.
He doesn’t annoy me his bigotry does though.
Neill – if you are capable of abuse only, I suggest you don’t contribute
Not abuse here is an idea listen to yourself on the Nolan show you came across as a cranky sectarian old man who uses language that even SF don’t use any more.
Listen to Alex Kane he can discuss and argue constructively without throwing in sectarian comments the sad thing is you can do so much better sadly you don’t seem willing to.
If that offends you then fine I shall not contribute anymore
You do as you see fit, Neill. I’m struggling with remembering a positive, thoughtful contribution from your good self. And I’d watch the ‘sectarian’ and ‘old’ criticisms if I were you – they could land you in trouble some day. I agree that Alex is a pleasant, intelligent man and someone – as I’ve told him – it is near-impossible to dislike. I’m happy to concede to him on that score. However, I decide what I’ll say and how, and if others don’t like it – tough. I’m confident that I don’t engage in name-calling as a substitute for argument.
Im struggling with remembering a positive, thoughtful contribution from your good self.
Sadly I am not an opinion former I wish I was…..
However, I decide what I’ll say and how, and if others don’t like it – tough. I’m confident that I don’t engage in name-calling as a substitute for argument.
That’s the point you do and you don’t see it.
And I’d watch the ‘sectarian’ and ‘old’ criticisms if I were you – they could land you in trouble some day.
The sad thing Jude is that many people are sectarian but don’t admit it as a people we have to admit it because this is the heart of issue in Northern Ireland. As for old wont live `til I m 60 anyway
well neill admits “many people are sectarian but don’t admit it as a people we have to admit it because this is the heart of issue in Northern Ireland.”
He and others may like to read the last 2 posts on eurofree3.wordpress.com which state the problems NI is beset with and then propose innnovative solutions. I wonder if neill will object to them?
Some I have no problem with others are simply silly
There is the option of setting up your own blog Neill, just as Jude has done. If you have opinions and you wish to have them heard, the Internet provides many opportunities. To come onto somebody’s blog merely to insult them is a little rude.
The trouble with your line of argument Neill is that to follow it one could not reference to an injustice lest one be accused of an inherent prejudice oneself. For example following you line of thinking the Reverend Martin Luther King could in fact just been an anti-white racist exploiting an opportunity in a disillusioned black population. Really…….?
Neill, you have missed the point, I think. Please contribute but in a more thoughtful way instead of negative wisecracks etc.
If you disagree with the argument then state why. Back that argument up with examples.
For example, Neil, you said “[Jude] doesn’t annoy me his bigotry does though.” No analysis. No examples. No real train of thought. It essentially amounts to an unfounded accusation.
It is for this reason that most find it difficult to take your comments seriously and view them as not constructive at all.
OK can I pose you a question if a middle of the road unionist was to read this blog they would be horrified because Jude always plays the lowest common denominator against unionism I know many people on this this site have no liking o the orange order and have demonized the order and its members however the truth is far different most orangemen join the organisation because there fathers and grandfathers and family members and friends are member’s they feel and ownership of the organisation.At meetings they don’t talk about nationalists actually most meetings are dull and for the marches in the twelfth they really are family days were families neighbours meet up and have some fun.
The lodges always look after the old folk in the area regardless of faith because that is the country way of doing things so it pisses me off that jude abuses the members of the orange indeed Nolan this morning called him on it
The trouble with Jude is that he has no knowledge if Unionist culture which sees marching as being an important element of its existence so talking of banning marches is akin to Unionists asking for the GAA or Irish to be banned
Perhaps if Jude was a little less critical and had a little more interest in understanding unionism perhaps then he could comment fairly sadly at no stage as he expressed a desire to do so
”so talking of banning marches is akin to Unionists asking for the G.A.A or Irish to be banned”
There are roughly 15 (if even that many) contentious marches each year where local residents demand the re-routing of the march out of several thousand each year. Yet these lodges insist that they march through areas where residents do not want them. Why? Surely if it is ‘a family fun day out’ as you describe then more fun would be had if these Orange lodges marched through or near areas where they are more welcome.
Now some Unionists might say to me ‘the residents are bigots because they don’t want the Orange Order about…” well if Unionists believe the residents are ‘just bigots’ then unionism should implore the Orange institution to reroute these small number of marches on the basis that they would win the moral high ground if they did. furthermore, it would save the public purse enormous amounts of money in policing costs if they would just let it go.
There is seemingly an inherent paranoia amongst Unionism and particularly the Orange Order that if they ‘give an inch’ (read reroute a march because local residents don’t want it) that a domino effect will occur where Catholics everywhere will demand marches be rerouted and/or banned.
It does not stand up to scrutiny. Large numbers of Orange Marches were banned by the British government in the 19th century. Did the Unionist marching tradition die out? Of course not. The most recent and most well-known ban of a section of an Orange march was Garvaghy road in the ’90’s. Did the number of Orange marches decrease since? Again, no. There has been an increase in the number of Loyalist band and Loyal Order parades.
I see Neill you make a link between unionism and the orange order. The problem is one is a political ideology while the other is an exclusively anti-Catholic organisation. I am sure being a true unionist should not mean that you should have an avowed distaste for Catholics.
I would content that a true middle of the road unionist would be as likely to agree with Jude as would most of the right thinking people around the world! Unionism would be a much more acceptable ideology here if it weren’t for its ugly bedfellow!
Wrong again, Neill. I have never criticised the ordinary Orangeman – I am totally aware that he goes out on the Twelfth for a bit of craic in a dull summer and that tradition of doing so feels good.My criticism is two-fold: there are people who march who are motivated by sectarianism and mindless hatred. We see this in contemporary times and we see it in the Order’s history. The organisation also has rules which show contempt for Catholicism. So while the average Orangeman probably never thinks of it and just enjoys a day out, the fact is he is a member of an organisation that was founded on the bodies of Catholics, has ordinances that institutionalise that contempt and a history that shows again and again how it acts as a divisive force in Irish life. I understand fully the motivation of the ordinary Orangeman but I also understand/recognise a force for division when I see it.
I`m afraid you will have to accept the Orange Order just the same way Unionists have to accept that SF has a say in what happens in Northern Ireland.We have all had to make unpleasant decisions.
As for organisations being built on bodies the armed wing of the movement you supported did exactly the same and contributes nothing to society and yet silence from somewhat double standards Jude.
The difference being that SF are a democratically elected political party whereas the Orange Order are not.
That’s more like it Neill! That’s the kind of constructive essay that I and I’m sure, Jude himself , want to see. I think you explained your points well and with a degree of detailed explanation.
I said somewhere else that it’s easy to demonise any of us in this past conflict but the problem with the Orange Order can be that it excuses the excesses of its more rabid followers and will not make apologies for their poor behaviour .
people feel insulted by some of their behaviour and they seem deaf to any real discussion……
every year talk is left to the last possible moment and then all hell breaks out with a seasonal bang. Any reasonable person is fed up with this daft cycle of nonsense.
Now there has to be a reasonable way of doing this without insult , so where is it?
If parades, flags and the past are the problem then I am afraid the Orange Order can never be part of the solution. Those things are all they live for.
If they do throw away the government’s ear for a few brass tacks then it will be contemptible.
How do they have the neck to put things like ‘Standing Up For Northern Ireland’ on their literature and then prioritise parades over jobs, education and the economy?
“So, how did the meeting with the PM go?’
“Very well. He was most accommodating”
“Excellent, is he likely to concede some of our requests?”
“I think so’
“Like lower corporation tax?”
“No”
“Erm, finance for transport infrastructure upgrades”
“No…”
“Okay, well, I imagine you got us something nice and fat for the education budget or housing?”
“No, we did not…”
“So, what may I ask did you extract from the PM????”
“Parades”
“!!!!!!!!!!!”
The difference being that SF are a democratically elected political party whereas the Orange Order are not.
With obvious paramilitary links you want peace therefore you have to accept things that are difficult
Neil, the DUP and PUP have these ‘links” as well, somehow, they are never called on that
I`m not a supporter of the DUP but I can assure you the Dup has no paramilitary links as for the Pup well yes I fully agree
wasn’t /isn’t the DUP linked to the UDA?
The Dup was and until very recently was Paisleys fiefdom he didn’t share power(til recently!) with anybody.
Dr C
I should point out though, that your choice of OO photos do seem a bit one-sided, the group you have in the photo are what my grandmother would describe as ‘through-other lookin”