In the course of the Scottish referendum, there was a demonstration outside the BBC. Members of the Yes campaign were incensed by what they saw as BBC bias in the reporting of the campaign – biased against their side, that is. Although the BBC report of the protest didn’t mention it, other media outlets said that demonstrators singled out political editor Nick Robinson in particular for their anger and had placards to that effect.
People saw this demonstration differently, depending on their loyalties. Those of the No camp saw it as intimidation – an attempt to prevent the unbiased coverage for which the BBC is known and a disgraceful attempt to harass one journalist in particular. Those on the Yes side saw it as their democratic right to protest peacefully and to make accusations against a particular journalist, arguing that the charges were in fact accurate.
You could chew on that bone for quite a while but let’s move back to our own little corner of our island, dreary steeples and all. Mark Devenport was on BBC Radio 4’s ‘Today’ programme this morning, commenting on David Cameron’s assertion that the enhanced powers promised to Scotland should be available to Wales and Northern Ireland. Mark effectively said that of course our little corner was a different case and that what we needed was for our present dispensation to run smoothly and effectively, which it wasn’t at present doing.
To which the obvious question must be posed: why not? Why shouldn’t the north of Ireland get the same powers as those that exist in Scotland and will exist, presumably, in Wales? After all, as unionist politicians never tire of reminding us, we’re part of the UK. Shouldn’t we then have access to the same levers of power as other regions of the UK?
The other question which presents itself in the aftermath of the Scottish referendum is when do we get ours? The Scottish referendum showed that 45% of the people there wanted an independent Scotland. Judging by voting patterns in the past and not by whether people put an X in a box marked ‘Northern Irish’ on the census form, at least that percentage and probably more would favour Irish independence. The Good Friday Agreement has the notion of a constitutional referendum built into it. The Deputy First Minister has expressed support for the idea. So why not?
Well, put simply, it’s because unionism might get upset. The reason unions politicians (paradoxically) fight shy of enhanced powers for Stormont is that they fear their devolution would detach this part of Ireland further from the Mother Parliament and so hasten the day of Irish unity. But presumably David Cameron, when he grants these powers to Scotland as promised, and to Wales in all likelihood, believes the opposite: that such devolution will help maintain a happy union. Odd, then, that unionist thinking should be so at odds with a Tory government in London.
As for reasons against holding a referendum here, there really only is one: it might upset unionists. Not that they wouldn’t win – or at least that’s what they say – but that it would create division. Mmm. Isn’t that what all elections do – underscore divisions, differing visions of the future? It’s a question of how you respond to divergence of views and the democratic decision finally taken. For all sorts of reasons I’m sorry to see the Scottish people voting against independence, but I accept that they’ve done so – it’s their democratic will. So shouldn’t any divisions that would arise in the course of a referendum campaign here work in similar manner: people impassioned in promoting their point of view with the electorate, then accepting whatever the outcome of the referendum is? Surely that’s democracy at work.
Oddly, unionist politicians tell us oddly that they are opposed to a referendum because they, unionists, would win it. Shouldn’t that be an argument in favour of holding one?
Sometimes it seems that every major event in these islands leaves unionism in a greater state of disarray. Maybe, deep down, that’s why they’re opposed to a referendum here.
As a unionist with a small ‘u’, can someone please advise me why I could be persuaded to vote for a united Ireland. In a referendum, why should I vote for the other side, I cannot, and I have tried, find one logical reason to do so.
Well try this,sweet Wiliam. The other side of independence is dependence. When people are children they depend on their parents. If they continue to do so in adulthood we’d say they were in a sad state. Isn’t that what our little corner is?
could not have put it better , dependence is the result of weakness and insecurity,and the unionist are a very sad people of little substance. having said that the dishonesty of the british government and labour/ lib/dems shows how easy it is to deceive and lie to those who are dependent and without vision or pride in their country
William
As one small ‘u’ to another do you mind if I reel off a few notions?
I accept that it’s odd for one unionist to try and convince another unionist but given that nationalism in general can’t offer many good reasons (e.g. Alex Maskey when he was caught in the Nolan headlights when he asked Maskey to ‘sell the idea of a united Ireland)then let’s consider it an academic exercise:
First obstacle though is the perceived image of what a UI would be under SF’s vision: Union flag down, tricolour up, renaming of streets and place names and a definite feeling if winners and losers.
Obviously this is as appealing as Icelandic shark specialities: http://www.isholf.is/gullis/jo/shark.htm
If we were to serve up a more palatable version of a UI then we could look at it from the following angles
1/ Economy – You may remember the ‘acceptable level of violence’ that we were deemed to be living in back in the day?
Well, now we live in a time of ‘acceptable level of impoverishment/shambles’.
That is to say that the amount of investment needed bring NI up to scratch is more than any London government is prepared to serve up especially as it would be at the expense of poorer regions in England.
We’ve got the civil service teat to suck on and that’s that.
In a UI the low corporation tax could really work wonders for Belfast, it would be a shot in the arm for the few industries still clinging on in Belfast.
I had a mad notion about ‘federating’ Ulster with a provincial (token) government based in Dungannon (a way of saving all the civil service jobs that would otherwise be jettisoned), plus it would move wealth west of the Bann but that’s another story.
2/ POLITICALLY – Our politicians don’t have to do much to get our votes.
A bit of fear mongering here and sectarianism/defiance there and it’s in the bag.
We don’t care if they’re awful at their jobs (Ruane, Poots, McCausland).
In a UI they’d actually have to do something and be held accountable, especially in the current environment of ‘austerity’ where people are still angry at the mess politicians and bankers made.
3/ MOVEMENT – We don’t actually have any ambitions or need to improve our lot in NI. Despite everything going to hell around us we are so easily distracted by flegs, marches and commemorating killers.
If a UI removes these weapons of mass distraction then we might start to demand rail links to the airports, tighter environmental controls, a decent transit system, job creation, a tourism strategy that doesn’t revolve around golf or game of thrones, architectural heritage and preservation etc
At present they’re all subservient to flegs n stuff.
4/ LIFE – With people like Jim Allister in the Dail to act as a sentinel/pain in the ass things might start to get things done. We could perhaps make a go of the new country. We have NO influence on London (except when they’re desperate for swing votes).
We’d have a big influence on Dublin and could perhaps influence it for the better?
That’s just off the top of my head, I’d also throw in a few fixtures like exempting embassies and consulates in Belfast from rates as a way of encouraging them to move up north and thereby bringing some investment (and important people) to Belfast.
As well as sparing those big houses on Malone road from developers.
Anyhoo, food for thought, I’m off to the pub….
I’m away myself Am Ghob …catching a few ales and a bit of rhythm and bloooze later on …As usual much food for thought from your good self…who’d a thunk there was life beyond the bullshit of our politics.? We need all the new ideas we can find..
As a republican and sometimes Sinn Fein voter the only street name I am interested in changing in the whole of N.I is Cromwell road just off Botanic avenue. Cromwell Road!!!! Cromwell. Infuriates me whenever I think of how the bitterness that must have been behind the choice of that street name.
Otherwise, are you sure Sinn Fein are ‘about changing street names’ ?? I know they want to put some of them (or maybe all of them) in Gaeilge as well as English. I don’t really see any logical reason to oppose that. Other than it may not be financially viable at this particular time.
My Mum is Scottish and her home town in Inverclyde is covered in gaeilge sign posts and street names. I’ve never heard mention of anybody objecting to them on any grounds. In fact my Great Uncle is a fluent Gaeilge speaker and a member of the Free-Kirk Church and furthermore I could hazard a good guess he voted No on Thursday.
You may have a point about Nationalists not being very good at selling a U.I. Although I’ve made some of the points you have made above and others before to some Unionists. I’m not sure if it had any effect in changing their minds. I could join one of the parties and make them better at ‘selling a ‘United Ireland’. But if I join the Sinners 90% of Protestants will dismiss my views cause I’m an evil sinner. The SDLP is dead. And then again after those Free Staters made a hash of their public finances selling a united Ireland is a lot more difficult than it need have been.
Hi Antonio
The lynchpin of my argument was (is) ‘perception’.
SF are in the eyes of even reasonable unionists ‘toxic’.
It’s very easy to get the more alarm-prone unionists to believe that they are sharpening the pikes and preparing for a ‘night of the long knives’.
That’s obviously not true, but, such is the perception and said perception is very easy to reinforce e.g. one Raymond McCreesh park type episode will undo the work of 100 handshakes with the Queen.
Sorry, that’s just the way it is.
Hence I believe that SF is an entirely unsuitable vehicle from which to attempt to unite Ireland.
I have no doubt they’re very good at local issues and are streets ahead of many political groups in these islands, never mind Stormont.
But, if unification is their no 1 priority well, quite simply they’re going about it the wrong way, appealing to the militant republican heritage aspect of their cult is nauseatingly off-putting to unionists, hence our unionist nut-jobs can whip the masses into believing all the doomsday nonsense.
If a UI was my priority I know what I’d be doing.
As for the Gaelic language aspect, you really can’t compare NI to Scotland.
I used to spend a lot of time with Scottish Gaels and am (slovenly) learning Scottish Gaelic now.
Had Gaelic been used by the SNP and people with an overtly nationalist agenda then things might be different.
Gerry A et al of course have THE RIGHT to speak it on TV but the bottom line, the horrible truth that you simply can’t refute is that many if not most unionists think “look, the MURDERERS are speaking their language, ergo it’s not our language”.
I have this argument a lot and it amazes me how many people are oblivious to the perceived association between SF and Irish.
Any basic marketing book or psychology book will confirm this negative association.
That SF have helped the language, have the right to speak it etc does not detract from this bottom line which is based on practice, not theory.
There is no way around it.
I say this as someone who wants a Gaelic revival.
To me this is a major obstacle but no one wants to know.
People would rather deflect this point rather than concede it.
Am Ghob,
I understand where you are coming from with this but unfortunately you are trying to address the unionist antipathy towards Sinn Fein on a superficial level only (i.e. their historical political baggage) which is highly flawed.
One of the most important factors which you are failing to consider is probably the most important one of all, what the Ex-moderator of the Presbyterian church in Ireland, reverend John Dunlop called the “virus of deep rooted anti-Catholicism” which affects the unionist population here (radio Ulster – Sunday Sequence last week).
It is the elephant in the room!
It is not addressed by society in general here because of unionist reluctance to admit its existence and in particular it is not addressed by the main Protestant churches here, many of which retain anti-Catholic ordinances.
There is little point in trying to address issues like unionist perceptions of Gaelic, or the GAA substantively without addressing the Anti-Catholic sectarianism which underpin many of the other perceptions. It is a bit like putting a plaster on a cancer patient without any other treatment and expecting him or her to get better!
I would suspect that there are very few Catholics who would not accept that Anti-Catholicism is the biggest problem we have here but I suspect very few unionists see it as a big problem at all!
I would challenge you to cite one senior Unionist politician who has put forward proposals to address Anti-Catholicism here. I would also challenge senior Protestant Church men and women here to explain why any attempts at addressing anti-Catholicism in their own churches has come to nought!
The truth only spoken in quiet corners is that those Church men and women are afraid that their congregation will not tolerate the removal of the anti-Catholic articles and would show such disapproval by leaving!
PS. You may say that some Unionists do advocate support for integrated education. There maybe some evidence that it does improve understanding between young people of different backgrounds but there is no evidence to show that the motives of its advocates are to tackle anti-Catholicism!
Pointis
I think you’ve moved the goal posts a tad there.
My points regarding unionist aversion to SF stand regardless of anti-Catholicism, even moderate unionists of an agnostic background would find SF’s fusion of nationalism, commemoration cult and republicanism quite off putting.
Now, with regards to anti-Catholicism, yes, of course it’s bad in NI and I recall being spoon fed (and swallowing) ridiculous notions about how you are ‘all the same’ hence Joe Six-pack of a non-republican background would be treated with the same amount of suspicion as a genuine Shinner.
I do think however this can be turned to nationalist advantage.
As long as SF is around then you have them to ‘draw out the poison’.
A new economically orientated unification party (hopefully including people of various religious backgrounds) would stand a better chance of opening a rational (?) debate on a UI.
Of course there’d be the usual drivel from Bryson, Frazer etc but it’s not like they’re going to be potential voters for such a party but the ‘unicorns’ and small ‘u’ unionists would/could (should?) and we don’t need THAT many for reunification.
Indeed, SF could assist any plans for a UI from this mysterious third party by publicly OPPOSING its proposals (no better way to gain credibility from unionists that to have a ‘thumbs down’ from SF).
Anyhoo, I’m running away with myself.
Sectarianism is of course still a big problem but if you were a betting man would you wager that there is an equal proportion of pupils from integrated/mixed schools in anti-Catholic ‘KTP’ bands as there are from non-integrated/mixed schools?
My experience of the band scene (dated a bit now admittedly) would lead me to place a hefty sum on ‘NO’.
And from the perspective of trying to tackle anti-Catholicism would you not consider that a good thing?
Am Ghob,
Thanks for replying.
“My points regarding unionist aversion to SF stand regardless of anti-Catholicism”
I am not so sure if that is wholly true!
Someone who doesn’t like Catholics tends not to like any Catholic! Into that mix then comes the hierarchy of hate. “I don’t like any Catholic but I particularly hate Shinners and Fenians” do you think many Catholics would take comfort from hearing such a statement or would they more reasonably feel “that person is going to do me harm given half a chance but they will definitely do more harm to someone perceived to be Republican”.
Would it be reasonable to believe that should all Shinners disappear overnight that the example views expounded above would become defunct and the Anti-Catholic sentiments would harm no one. History would tend to show that anti-Catholicism harmed people here when there was no perceivable Republican presence or threat!
“even moderate unionists of an agnostic background would find SF’s fusion of nationalism, commemoration cult and republicanism quite off putting” moderate unionists and agnostics can still hold anti-Catholic views (I have seen them)!
I really appreciate how hard it is for someone who comes from a traditional unionist background to step into another mans shoes on this issue but I can guarantee you it is very real and the core of our problems here!
Finally on your point about would I “wager that there is an equal proportion of pupils from integrated/mixed schools in anti-Catholic ‘KTP’ bands as there are from non-integrated/mixed schools”? I think your assertion would probably be correct but may not scientifically prove your point as it would probably not meet the criterion of a “fair test”.
If you were to examine the location and pupil profile of integrated schools you will find the vast bulk located in and middle /upper class areas. I think you would agree that “kick the Pope bands” tend to be a phenomena of the Protestant working class areas.
That is not to take anything away from the good work integrated schools may have done to improve relationships between Protestant and Catholic children who attend them.
William
Well firstly you’d help get rid of the bunch of criminal child- molesting scrounging parasites they call ‘The Royal family’- and secondly you’d also help deliver us all, from the ‘gangster’ warmongering ‘friends of Israel’ cabal that pose as a government in WestMonster.
Surely that sounds ‘logical’?
Truthrevisionist
I don’t see how accusing the Royal Family of being child molesters (libellous I would have thought) will persuade many Unionists that their views will be respected in a new United Ireland
giordanobruno
My intent is not in persuading any unionist to engage in a ‘new United Ireland’.
The objective is simply to point out the ‘rotten underbelly’ of the state to which they pledge allegiance and the indirect control exercised thereof, by a ‘rogue’ state which occupies stolen land in Palestine.
Truthrevisionist
So which members of the Royal Family are child molesters then? Spit it out.
Not on my website he doesn’t. Even though the thought of a court case with the relevant people does hold its attractions…
Truth revisionist
I did not like your attitude.
Could not would not do business with you. Norma
Norma
I haven’t always agreed with your attitude.
But it certainly would never stop me ‘doing business’ with you.
I respect your opinion and will always listen to you, even when you are dreaming up ‘popish plots’ to embellish poor Bob Geldofs’ family tree.
Truth revisionist
I did not like your attitude.
Could not would not do business with you.
Norma
William, I would love to persuade you but I fear I may not be able to. After all, you are a Unionist – and that is your right.
As an Irish Republican I hold out my hand to you in peace. I believe that we, on this island, are fully capable of making our own decisions for the benefit of all our people. I believe that those who are Unionists now could become quite powerful in a UI.
Despite our opposing views I am convinced that you and I have more in common than we have with David Cameron et al. I’m convinced we care more about the people here than anyone in power in London does.
In a UI, William, no one would look to take your British identity off you. We could all create a new Ireland together, one we are all proud of. For that to happen we need to talk together and listen to each other.
We on this island William, if I may borrow a phrase, are better together.
Ceannaire
That was very nice, thank you. Norma
William, a way of summarising my point I suppose is to speculate that Belfast will never be ‘great’ again as lond as she is part of the UK.
But as part of a UI she is at least in with a fighting chance (something people in Belfast are quite good at).
What, taking a chance, AG?? Sure the place is crawling with chancers.
William,
In short, self-worth and self-respect for both ourselves as individuals and for our Irish nation. In other words, we the peoples of all-Ireland have a right and responsibility to rule ourselves, not part of us being ruled by some neighbouring foreign Parliament which never has had and never will have the acceptance and confidence of the majority of our island nation.
The flip side of your query is, convince the Irish in the North why we should cease striving to unite our Irish nation by gaining our freedom from an English dominated Parliament in London?
All electoral and other evidence indicates, the vast majority of the pro-Union constituent in the North are unlike the vast majority of the peoples of Great Britain; the majority seem more like our small ‘c’ Irish Catholic conservative constituent and mainstream political unionism are nothing like either mainstream British or Irish politicians. These things being the reality, pro-Union advocates in the North can not honestly contend that what they offer is the benefits of a “modern British society” because that’s manifestly not true – our society will only ever change when we remove a ‘Union’ link the flag of which political unionism uses like a shield against introducing equality and modernity for the benefit of all inhabitants of this the island homeland of the Irish nation.
We should start a petition to get 100,000 so that DC would have to have it discussed in Westminster
Excellent suggestion, PJD
Ok Jude if there was vote for a united ireland tomorrow set out the reasons why somebody like me would benefit from it?
One obvious one, neill : self-respect. Letting go of Mummy’s hand. Being grown-up.
‘other side of independence is dependence’ Well, quite. This ruritanian fantasy theme park we have here should be renamed dependency, as it has never in its 90 year existence, been able to thrive off it’s own steam, therefore it has no claim to validity. Unionists now have not just one threat of referendum hanging over it every decade, just waiting to be snuffed out, but two. When those first time voters in the Scottish ref who voted YES are in their thirties , they will remember yesterday and will demand another and Scotland will leave this place in the lurch without an second thought. around the same time there will be a ref here which will put an end to this sorry political slum. It won’t be mourned in Britain.
Mark Devenport is not without bias.He wrote a book about Gerry Adams one time which took a very hostile anti SF line.None of his reports ever show SF in a positive light and so I tend to take anything he says with a pinch of salt.
Jude we all know why the north can’t get more powers – unionists would have to share the new powers with SF.
Mark Devenport would not be entirely free from bias.He wrote a book on Gerry Adams which was very anti SF.His reports never show SF in a good light and I would take anything he says with a pinch of salt.
Michael C
Do you feel that you have to repeat this accusation ?It seems that anyone who makes even the mildest criticism of a Gerry Adams is classed as suspect!
You mentioned The Proclaimers prophetically, Esteemed Blogmeister, in the run up the Scottish Referendum.
Seems like the unlikeliest of blogtrotters have been eavesdropping on your musings, if the rush to bring out cover versions of the aweseome twins from Auchtermuchty’s greatest hits is anything to judge by.
While Wikidistance tells Warbeck that if is just over 400 miles from London to Glasgow this did not deter the pop charts’ latest super group ‘The Up from Downing Streetwalkers’ from making for the recording studio, pronto:
When I wake up, well, I know I’m gonna be
I’m gonna be the man who wakes up next to you.
And once wasn’t enough: no sooner had they gone back to Thameside to check, no doubt, if the Gherkin was still on the market, that they turned right back to break for the Border once again. The Gherkin of course is rhyming Cockney slang for this iconic postmodern building. Its actual name is ‘The Perkin Warbeck Memorial Monstrosity’ so named in honour of one of Perkie’s least distinguished ancestors. Or at least one of those who, shall one say, pretended to be.
But I would walk 500 miles
And I would walk 500 more
Just to be the man who walks 1000 miles
To fall down at your door.
For a few days it looked as if the super group’s cover would top the charts but that was until Gordon Brown released his own solo, jaw-dropper of a version. The sheer passion of this prole’s cloth-eared take on the cloth-capped verse was what won the voters and the popsters alike in the end:
‘When I’m working, yes, I know I’m gonna be
I’m gonna be the man who’s working hard for you
And when the money comes in for the work I’m gonna do
I’ll pass (almost) every penny on to you.
The reason why the almost is in brackets there is because the anything but gay Gordon chose to drop it. The word, not his kilt. Even Craig and Charlie would proclaim themselves impressed with that croft-crafty move.
Da lat da (Da lat da), da lat da (Da lat da)
Da-da-da dum-diddle um-diddle dum da-da.
And so, the not so gay Gordon of the appropriate surname’s version won the day. A not inappropriate name because his fellow Northern Unionists have happily consented to have their soiled nappies changed for the next 307 years of postponed adulthood.
The pattern is beginning to emerge here. When Fintan O’Caber was amusingly musing about his wee spell as a ‘reluctant nationalist’ he got in a reference to ……’the civil and civic nationalism of the Scots’.
Civil and Civic? CAC.
Now from which recondite sporran did Fintan of the Squintin’ Windows pull that most peculiar adjectival formula? Normally, in the bitter together world of TUT that most unfashionable of words, nationalism would never be seen moribund in such a chic rig out.
Look no further than the bottom, brown-coloured line.: CAC. is, is it not, the Leprechaun for Number One in the sense lavatorial. You really couldn’t be up to the Tooler at times.
In case there are any American blogtrotters eavesdropping at this mo in time, ‘nappy’ is English for ‘diaper’.
Mention of The Proclaimers leads one on to the Proclamation. Which was under just as much presh in the last few days not least from John Bull Unionist who was not only allowed to turn the main news studio of RTE into his own private China Shop, but get pinstripe suitably remunerated for the priv. Luckily, the only thing he has managed to damage so far is his own precious porcelain ego-cup.
This former Prime Minister of the Free Southern Stateen also served (for a pittance, no doubt) as the European Union Ambassador to the USA. .It goes without s. that, the various American Networks with almost indecent haste opened their studios to the Bullock-befriending Bruton (for it is he) so he could rifle through the casualty lists of the so-called American War of Independence.
Here’s a Brutonian bellow taken at random:
-What about the 20,000 gallant red-coated British musketeers whose scarlet blood was shed so Charlton Heston could become the Vice-President of the National Rifle Association?
Under the Dirty Year Rule, whose embargo of an toilet lid has not yet been lifted, Perkie got a sneak peek at a leak and can reveal, after taking a ‘looooooooook up the railway from Maine to Canada’ that in his voluminous Letters from America the then Ambassador expressed his ambition to become the Laird of Lard Arse and lead the call for a Referendum in the Free Southern Stateen on the subject of rejoining the UK.
Loch Neagh no more
Peter Sutherland for ever more
Lousy Leprechaun no more
Sky, BBC and Channel Four for every more.
‘
Perkie – God but you’re great. I rarely allow even a slow smile onto my face these times but my wizened features cracked wide open in yelps of laughter at least three times in the course of reading today’s offering. Only I know you’d be insulted, I think you should approach TUT with some of your poems/proses.
Jude, a chara,
With your permission I think Perkie would prefer to stay where he is – in the Gated Estate known as Comfort Zone Cul de Sac.
After all somebody has to apply the old Cat o’ Nine Tails to the jolly tars of the Good Ship TUT whenever one feels the urge. (The old HM Naval salts on the staff there would be more familiar with the nautical jargon ‘The Captain’s Daughter’). And this is a task best undertaken from the rear. Anything else could be classified as a Scourge Purge.
It’s not that Perkie is against Flagellation per se: he did after all master the flageolet in the school band many moons ago and beneath a portrait of Matt Talbot, indeed. The opening tonic solfa notation of ‘Fainne Geal an Lae’/ The Dawning of the Day’ – Doh-ray-me-me-me-faw- soh- law- tee- doh is still imprinted on his musical memory.
But to succumb to TUT’s incessant urgings to enlist would hold no charms for Warbeck. (Such has the pressure surge become he has had to go ex-directory). For it is but a short hop, step and j. from flagellation to self-flagellation.
No, he is happy out where he is. Besides, he has a Loyalty Card for The Widow Twanky’s Spanky Spanky Emporium who can still satisfy all his urges. Not least in the plush velvet chamber designated: ‘Mortification of the Flash’.
Buiochas as an dea-smaoineamh.
Beir beannacht.
Jude and Am Ghobsmacht,
We absolutely must shift the framing of the debate. Namely: –
a) we Irish in our homeland on the island of Ireland want to unify our nation and take control of our own destiny.
b) NI British Unionists have had virtually a century to shape and offer us a fair and equal society but they instead remain unwilling to change their unacceptable anti-Irish attitude;
c) It’s become evident, the part of the Irish nation inhabiting the British ruled North of the island of Ireland have not and never will enjoy the recognition and value accorded to the Scottish and Welsh nations within their homeland territories.
On a somewhat different note, the type of egalitarian society Republicans hope to build is entirely possible with the help of moderate free-thinking Presbyterians. In a united Irish nation context, I believe this combination of progressives would win the day over extreme evangelical Unionists and ultra-conservative Catholic Nationalist types 🙂
The framing of the debate on this island must be focused on the needs and wants of the majority of the Irish nation in their homeland, not primarily on a neverending pro-Union wish-list…
LABORATORY TECNICIAN: “SIR! You have to see this! Some of the unionist test subjects are reacting positively to this new pragmatic UI serum!”
SCIENTIST: “That’s excellent news. Now lets give them a dose of the nationalistic serum and see if that accelerates the process”
LT: “Sir, are you sure, they tend not to react well to nationalism…”
SCIENTIST: “DO IT! THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO A UI!!!!!”
*LAB ASSISTANT APPLIES THE NATIONALIST SERUM TO THE UNIONIST TEST PATIENTS*
SCIENTIST: “How are they reacting?”
LT (meekly): “….they’ve flat lined sir, all of them….”
SCIENTIST: “CONTINUE THE RESEARCH! INCREASE THE LEVELS OF NATIONALISM AND RHETORIC!!!! THEY. WILL. YIELD”
LT (defeatedly): “…yes sir….”
AG, when did Catriona Ruane indulge in “fear mongering” or sectarianism? And why do you lump in a modern former international aid worker and tireless worker for equality like Ruane with 2 backward ,bible bashing morans like McCausland and Poots?
Michael
I didn’t accuse Ruane of fear mongering per se, I saddled her with ‘them two’ on the competence stakes.
We are not even remotely close to a border poll.
From the PM’s speech yesterday:
“But I am also a democrat. And it was right that we respected the SNP’s majority in Holyrood and gave the Scottish people their right to have their say.”
…so I think it is safe to assume that a nationalist majority in Stormont will ‘give the nationalist people the right to have their say’. We are waaaaaaaaay off that at the minute. 108 seats, 43 ‘Nationalist’, 9 ‘Other’ and 56 ‘Unionist’ – it’s not even close, especially considering nationalist seats have increased by a grand total of 1 since 1998.
I’m sorry that you live in fantasy land it seems most unpleasant and devoid of any reality sad really
Speaking as a Republican, I want to see an Ireland free from Britain`s malign influence, where everyone is equal. That is all I have ever wanted, it sounds condescending but the Protestant people have so much to offer a new Ireland, free from any official Church ties, unlike Britain of course. The Protestants would punch way above their weight in this new Ireland, unlike the present situation where they are a miniscule bunch in an English parliament, the capital wouldn`t have to be in Dublin, there could be a new flag,a new anthem, all sorts of possibilities.
Well said AJ
That’s the kind of chat I could do business with.
Honestly Am Ghobsmach your naviety is touching.
Why would any unionist give up Northern Ireland to be a minority in the Republic of Ireland?
Well I’d rather be a minority of 20% than one of 2%.
Good try Jude you certainly give it a lash recovered from you disappointment from the Scottish vote yet?
Well I remain deeply disappointed but I guess I’ll stagger on. Nice of you to ask. (Exits, coughing weakly)
Neill
See ‘acceptable state of impoverishment’ rant above.
There are certain circumstances under which I would accept a UI, a few issues have to be addressed and a few things ironed out but yes I would truly consider it.
Once Ireland is back on its feet (which it will) and the economic argument is redundant then we might find by that stage that the pro-status-quo/Catholic unionists/unicorn numbers might not be so large after all.
And as Dr C said we’re a minority in the UK anyway; hardly anyone supports our antics or backward thinking politics, we’re seen as a backwoods place run by homophobes and hicks.
We’ll be a minority in NI someday too and I’d rather be a minority under FG or FF et al rather than SF.
Northern nationalists are different to southerners in my experience.
NI will always be dependent on hand outs from London, I for one am not comfortable being a sponger.
Remember that a UI does not have to adhere to some Gerry Adams vision, there are other scenarios available, by dismissing them all out of hand we run the risk of having the worst case scenario forced upon us.
You can wait till your pushed, I prefer to jump and choose where to land.
I wouldnt live in a United Ireland under any circumstances I would simply leave the country and who says a United Ireland is inevitable your beginning to soundlike North Munsterman and that is not meant as a compliment….
Well at least you’re honest Neill, you said not under any circumstances and would rather leave the land of your birth (?) and forefathers (?) rather than seeing what would happen.
I see you’re at least not one of these ‘no surrender’ types, more of a ‘tactical retreat’ kind of guy?
I can’t see how NI will last for forever: Rome didn’t, the Ottoman empire didn’t, the Bactrian empire didn’t etc yet somehow it’s far fetched to believe that NI might not go the same way even when the majority of people on these islands want it to go away?
Why’s that exactly?
William Fay
Sir, I believe you have the floor at this point.
Could I just ask, out of all the unconvincing reasons for a UI that have been put to you here could you clarify which ones are perhaps worth a moments consideration (if any) and which ones are instantly rejectable?
I’m curious.
We Republicans are never going to persuade even the ‘nationalist’ people to vote for a united Ireland until the shambolic welfare system in the 26 counties is totally discarded and replaced with something fit for purpose. A few days ago I watched parents queuing to buy schoolbooks for their children in a Dundalk bookshop. In Newry the children woul be handed books gratis by their teachers. The children would receive a free or subsidised meal at lunchtime.What mother in Andersonstown or Derrybeg in Newry is going to vote to pay 50 euro to visit her GP with her sick child and be hit for hefty prescription charges afterwards – plus have to pay for a stay in hospital. Even the 30 per cent who have a medical card receive a severely circumscribed serfvice in comparison to NHS. The coalition sidekicks in Dublin are now planning to putprivate health companies in charge of health. SF have never even attempted to address this pterodactyl in the room in the context of a demand for a referendum. Hello Mary Lou….
Wow.
William, scratch my UI arguments, they’ve been gobbled up and spat out.
Brian
You nailed it !
I would go further.
Given the ‘diabolical’ mess of the ‘welfare state’ in the 26 counties, there probably isn’t even a chance of persuading many ‘republicans’ into a U.I.
Without a 26 county wide redistribution of wealth and an overhaul of social responsibility by government, in terms of fiscal policy and health spending, we are doomed to endure partition for the foreseeable future. The Republic is now a ‘debt slave’ to the World Bank and the IMF. Even demographics wont change this, and I’m not sure Sinn Fein fully understand the implications and criminal characteristics of PFI ‘gangster’ economics.
if top british labour politician Jack Straw gets his way there will be no referendum in NI, never, ever, ever!! End of sterile discussions!
http://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/09/20/no-more-independence-referendums/
Am Ghobsmacht,
I envisage Irish Nationalists and Republicans across Ireland forming a single ‘unity movement’ and presenting their draft proposal to the Unionist community for debate and possible agreement.
I acknowledge Unionists find it unpalatable most Nationalists elect Sinn Féin to represent them but they aren’t going away anytime soon. To be blunt, Unionists will just have to learn to do what Nationalists have done; we accepted it was the will of the Unionist people that they should be represented by the ilk of Ian “the evil shit-stirring bigot” Paisley and Peter “the UDA aren’t terrorists” Robinson, both of Third Force and Ulster Resistance fame.
Likewise, I don’t dispute that in an ideal world it would be preferable for cross-community relations if some other political party or movement assumed Sinn Féin’s role of being the only mainstream organisation in Ireland earnestly promoting our indigenous language. But, no other party has assumed that role – would an Gaéilge ever be heard on the airwaves but for Sinn Féin? Furthermore, it can’t be denied that Unionists abandoned an Gaéilge long before PIRA existed. And, let’s not pretend political unionism would like anything less than an Gaeilge to become extinct on this island – the only viable way forward is to encourage more confident Protestants like Linda Ervine to join the revival and take ownership of our native language.
It’s time to change the framing of our national debate. Unionists must be obliged to concede, they are not the one community with a profound sense of grievance. Our national debates must start affording greater serious consideration to the feelings, hopes and aspirations of the Nationalist community…
Pointis
(I can’t reply directly to your comment for some reason)
You raise some interesting points but I must question your point about integrated schools.
In your first post you state ” There maybe some evidence that it does improve understanding between young people of different backgrounds but there is no evidence to show that the motives of its advocates are to tackle anti-Catholicism!”
I then state the probability of integrated schools having a lesser probability of containing KTP band members to which you attribute to being the geographic likelihood of integrated schools being in middle/upper class areas.
In which case I would ask why would you question the motivation of integrated schools in the areas that are most likely to contain parentages of a ‘mixed’ background or indifferent background?
Surely out of all the non-Catholic social groups they are the least likely to be ‘anti-catholic’ or the most likely to tackle ‘anti-Catholicism’ in contrast to your initial suspicion?
If I have kids and return to NI I’ll be sending them to integrated schools BECAUSE my wife is Catholic, not out of some anti-Catholic motive that you have implied.
Same with may of my friends in ‘mixed’ marriages. do you not think you’re being a bit paranoid on this one?