From time to time, you’ll hear people bemoan our dreary obsession with partition and the constitutional question. “Why can’t they address the real issues, things that matter to people? Jobs, the cost of living, housing – real politics!”
Such people are half-right. It hardly needs reaffirming that jobs, housing etc are matters of the utmost importance. In an independent country they’d be what is referred to as domestic policy. But all such countries have a second policy – foreign policy – and that’s what people are expressing concern about when they speak of the partition of Ireland.
It’s clear that a great number of people in the north wish to maintain the link with Britain. It’s equally clear that a great number wish to break the link with Britain and create a new Ireland consisting of thirty-two counties. There are many reasons advanced by those who believe in a re-united, new Ireland. The first argument is usually that it would make economic sense – services wouldn’t need duplication -an end to two Departments for Education, two Departments for Health, and so on. I think that’s a valid argument but it’s also in some ways the weakest, since those arguing against duplication haven’t produced a comprehensive survey which shows the level of savings that could be made if partition were ended.
My own belief in the need for a re-united Ireland would include the economic argument: I suspect if all the sums were done, we’d see the financial desirability of an end to partition. But even if the sums were done, and even if they showed that we’d be worse off in a re-united Ireland, I’d still argue for the end to partition.
Let me give you an analogy that might clarify my argument. The man next door is a very nice man. Successful career, astute financial thinker, impressive in many ways. However, if the man next door were to ring my bell and announce that he’d come to take up occupancy of the back bedroom and that from now on he would run my household affairs, you can probably guess my reaction. I’d be outraged. Even if, in running my affairs, the man next door were to do a better job than I do, I’d still be outraged. Why? Because he’s on my property, or more strictly speaking, on my family’s property. Not on. No chance. Forget it, man-next-door.
The reason for my objection would be based on the fact that I’m an adult. When you’re small, it’s reasonable that other people – adults – make decisions for you. Children aren’t sufficiently mature to make big decisions. But when they grow up, mature, then part of being an adult is to run your own affairs. Sometimes you’ll make mistakes, sometimes you’ll make effective decisions. But effective or ineffective, shrewd or bumbling, they’re your decisions and if you’re a self-respecting adult, you’ll insist that you make them.
For those who’ve missed the parallel: England/Britain is in many ways a desirable next door neighbour. Anyone who’s lived in England or even visited there will know that the English people can be charming, fair-minded, good company. But regardless of their affability, they should not be running our affairs on this island. When given the opportunity, the Irish people voted overwhelmingly for the ending of the union with Britain. I’m convinced they would do so again.
But at this point in our history, we’re talking about a referendum for those of us living in the north. Sources like Arlene Foster and the Belfast Telegraph tell us this would be pointless since we already know the outcome, it would be to stay with the union. They may be right. But we’ll never know until a referendum is held. In demographic terms, the balance between Catholics and Protestants in the north – usually code for nationalists/republicans and unionists – is shifting inexorably. There is now a majority of people under thirty-five coming from the Catholic community. The Belfast Telegraph points to the census returns which show many Catholics describing themselves as ‘Northern Irish’, and interpret this as an indication that these Catholics want to maintain the union with Britain.
I’m not so sure. Once it’s made clear that Irish unity would not – repeat, NOT – involve the northern six counties being tied to the coat-tails of a corrupt, debt-soaked twenty-six counties, the great majority of Catholics in the north are more likely to do as they’ve done in election after election: vote for the nationalist/republican goal of a re-united Ireland.
Poppycock? Pie in the sky? Maybe. But there’s only one way to find out. If a large majority are in favour of maintaining the status quo, then nationalists/republicans will have to accept that fact and consider how their fellow-countrymen and women can be persuaded to change their minds. If a majority in the north were to vote in favour of ending the union with Britain, then unionists would be equally bound to accept the decision and arrangements for re-unification to be put in place.
“But what about the people in the south – don’t they have to agree too?” They do indeed and the same obtains as for the north: the decision is accepted and people act in keeping with the Good Friday Agreement.
What we have at present is a question which absorbs us all, and especially our politicians. No detailed study has been conducted to show how Irish re-unification could save money. The sooner such a study is done, the better. But even if the study found a financial disadvantage in re-unification, I’d still argue that as grown-up people we should act in a grown-up way. Let’s stop trying to guess or tell each other what’s behind the curtain – let’s just draw it back.
Re-unification might cost us? It might indeed. But that didn’t deter the Germans when the Berlin Wall came down. In the new Germany, the economy of East Germany was something of a basket case. But because the German people are a totally grown-up people, they insisted on re-unification. And they haven’t done so badly. Have they?
For the sake of clarity and self-respect, we need a referendum. Now.


Obviously I am going to disagree with anything Jude has written this i suspect will shock nobody.
This point amuses me though..I’m not so sure. Once it’s made clear that Irish unity would not – repeat, NOT – involve the northern six counties being tied to the coat-tails of a corrupt, debt-soaked twenty-six counties, the great majority of Catholics in the north are more likely to do as they’ve done in election after election: vote for the nationalist/republican goal of a re-united Ireland.
So who would pay off the debt?
Who would change the system the people in the republic have tried and failed to reform their system of government what chance of that changing in a new Ireland.
I like many other would leave Ireland as we would have no interest in being part of this new arrangement under any terms.
In fairness Jude you are semi retired with a pension which i suspect will keep you going in relative comfort however for the rest of us who are not near retirement age have not been given any real economic reasons by republicans to end partition outside duplication which in practice is a red herring is not terribly convincing to anybody who has roots in Northern Ireland to make the ultimate change….
Well Neill, I’m NOT going to disagree with everything you say. One point we agree on: unionists – and the rest of us – have not been given credible figures to show the economic case for a UI. Maybe they would show an economic disadvantage to UI but I don’t believe everyone measures everything in cash. In fact I think hardly anybody does – the things we ultimately value aren’t part of a bank account. The other thing I’d mention, Neill, is that you don’t seem to attach much value to the people of the six counties. Personally I’d be very confident the people of the north would more than punch above their weight in a UI – the qualities we possess are exactly what would be needed in a new Ireland. So I would hate to think that people who could offer so much would walk away. But if it ever came to a UI, I suppose it’s a matter of choice. But I do take your point: we need a comprehensive, honest, dispassionate account of the economic argument for both staying in the union with Britain or breaking that link.
Jude,another great blog,while some English may be desirable neighbours their governments and their army certainly are not.
It was a British government that foisted on us this absurdity called ‘northern Ireland’ and the out workings of that ill thought out idea are with us to this day.
As for univacation?….the sooner the better.
Some elected representative were getting their underwear in a twist this week about Mr Flannagan’s role in the panel. I would have thought one vote is as good as another, Catholic, Protestant, or Dissenter. Politicians have mandates and binding agreements were made in good faith. In spite of the neurasthenic reactions of some journalists, many people on this island continue to object to partition on valid moral, economic, political, social and cultural grounds.
In the past week, economic gurus have berated opponents as economic illiterates while at the same time they have slavishly accepted figures on welfare reform which have now been exposed as being misleading and inaccurate.
Millions of pounds continue to be spent on policing parades and some politicians are starting to talk of next year’s marching season. During the Drumcree protests, political unionism failed to deal with the truth of the situation. Irish Civil Servants were blamed for parades being rerouted. Evidence from state papers is available and indicate the then Chief Constable urged politicians to take heed of demographic changes in order to avoid violent protests.
Anyone in receipt of welfare payments through no fault of their own, would do well to consider increasing their salt intake when digesting food for thought from some politicians. The Freudian slip of the century about people with disabilities not being worth the minimum wage exposes the reality behind Tory rhetoric on welfare reform.
The imperial masters got a welcome in Scotland. Many people on this island would not extend a similar welcome.
Agreed Jude…..but why would such a referendum be confined to the Northern 6 counties ? Unionists are convinced that we here in this part of the country do not want Re-unification – so, let’s find out and have a binding 32 county Referendum on Re-unification.
Agreed, NM -I think that would have to happen anyway. But I suppose I was just stressing the need for the north to clarify public opinion beyond the pages of the Belfast Telegraph.
Hi Jude
After reading this subject (yet again) on a United ireland yawn yawn yawn, I have come to the conclusion that time is running out for you. It’s your dream to see ireland reunified.
It’s not the right time I’m afraid Jude, there’s still a few miles to travel!
It’s great to see that Ireland is no longer run by the Catholic corrupt church, all that nasty business with nuns and priests, the cruelty and all the rest.
No Jude, I do believe you will depart from this world not seeing the country United.
The biggest obstacle is that low life mafioso Sinn Fein, it’s so befitting “ourselves alone”, no I personally don’t want to share anything with these people. I am still getting over the shock that ALLEGEDLY GOOD IRISH WOMEN, never tried to help that young girl Cahill, and the memory of the auld doll taking away Jean McConville, on the mouth of Christmas leaving ten children orphans.
The thought makes my skin crawl. No we are three generations away from your utopia.
Norma
Norma – I’m sorely tempted to get you a Christmas present of Anne Cadwallader’s book ‘Lethal Allies’. Instructive reading, providing the reader hasn’t a mind sealed with rivets.
And for my Christmas I’ll have a pint of whatever Norma is on please Jude!
Jude
What makes you think you’ll see Christmas?
According to Norma time is running out for you.
Perhaps you should have a lie down.
I could ask you the same question, gio. Anyway, I’m planning to buy it now and arrange for it to be left at a drop-off point…
The problem here is that the man next door kicked in the front door and planted his friends in one room, where he has used every means possible to keep them there, distant from the rest of the household. Of course nobody is looking to be absorbed (God forbid) by the free state, a new Ireland would have a new anthem, a new flag, a new capital, the talents of all the people would be utilised for the greater good, Protestants would have much more influence in a new Ireland where they would make up a sizeable chunk of the population than they could ever have in the British Parliament, especially now the English are starting to query why people they regard as foreigners are able to vote on purely English matters. As for the economic problem, Britain would, of course, have to pay several billions of pounds in compensation for the carnage and misery they have inflicted on Ireland over the centuries. I suspect they would jump at the chance.
Good grief that is shockingly naive Another Jude the British leave and still have to prop up this new state you propose.
The problem here is that the man next door kicked in the front door and planted his friends in one room, where he has used every means possible to keep them there, distant from the rest of the household
Read this and consider how a unionist would react to this?
“Read this and consider how a unionist would react to this?”
Exactly Neil, Just what we have all come to expect. Unionists have a hard time with the truth, It’s uncomfortable for them, they like to kid themselves that they are somehow, something more than the descendants of the plantation. That the vagaries of time have somehow allowed them to morph into something more respectable. However, consider your discomfort Neil and ask yourself why when the truth is pointed out do you jump all over the messenger?
Another Jude
Might I offer a suggestion?
When you say things like “Of course nobody is looking to be absorbed (God forbid) by the free state, a new Ireland would have a new anthem, a new flag, a new capital, the talents of all the people would be utilised for the greater good, Protestants would have much more influence in a new Ireland where they would make up a sizeable chunk of the population than they could ever have in the British Parliament, especially now the English are starting to query why people they regard as foreigners are able to vote on purely English matters”
I start to think “Hallo, this is someone I can do business with”
But when you ARE PERCEIVED to add things like oppression, revenge, MOPEry and pike-sharpening then I step back and think “that was a close one”
I often rant about how unionism hobbles its own cause, I believe nationalism does the same.
I don’t mean this to be facetious, simply highlighting something that you might not be aware of.
AG
Another joke,
You really need to get your head felt, you are so full of keak. I think ENGLAND owes you sweet fanny adams. Zilch nil nothing, if she left tomorrow, she is leaving it (ireland ) in a better state than she found it.
That beautiful Dublin castle the Queen sat in a couple of years ago, were do you think that came from???
The thing that sickens me the most about anti BRITISH peopls such as yourself, you are first class parasites, beggars, if not from Britain then the EEU.
I like the people of the South, it’s just your sort I dislike immensely, I bet if I was to gain information on your back ground you and your like have bleed the good British system dry.
Go and dry your eyes, and give us all a break we are tired listening to the same old crap, and just for good measure, the people in the south might want us PROTESTANTS but I am not so sure she wants the likes of you.
Norma
OK Norma – you’re on borrowed time. I’m just not putting up any more rants like this. They’re nasty and pointless. Sorry
Jude I fear Norma has had my pint as well.
Sorry but I thought a bit of levity would help,
Norma
Please, steady on there.
AJ simply added a few nationalistic caveats which are (unfortunately) accepted as fair and balanced.
His part about a new Ireland was actually quite pragmatic.
As for Dublin Castle and ‘the English’. As much as the more recent parts of it might be of British design it should be remembered that the original castle was built by the Anglo-Normans who had much practice of building castles in the course of subjugating/oppressing ‘the English’.
We’re taught to see them as one and the same (suits everyone’s narratives nicely) but it’s so much more tricky than that.
Ireland, like practically every other European country owes part of its culture to outside influences.
Unlike other countries we’re not mature enough to accept these influences without pegging them to ‘one side’ or the other.
If the Mongols had made it to Ireland I imagine somebody somewhere would still be bleating about it…
Instead of going for the large hammer of a referendum now, another option would be to move bit by bit. So when a referendum is held we would have a de-facto end of partition already in place.
Start small to ease Unionists and doubters in. This would show them that having a common purpose between North and South works.
In parallel with this we need a number of game changer events eg a nationalist FM, a nationalist majority in the assembly (SF missed an opportunity last week in relation to the speaker post, having a SF speaker is too much for Unionists right now so SF should have voted for the SDLP candidate. Once this nationalist speaker was proven to be no fair a success a SF speaker would not be far behind – not unlike the Belfast Mayor post).
If there is going to be a push for a referendum what will be the slogans of each side be? SF are hardly going to use Better Together!
Excellent piece Jude. Your analogy of the man next door taking up occupancy of the back bedroom to the British government taking up residency in part of Ireland is a good one. It is simply a matter of right and wrong. The man next door is clearly wrong. It baffles me how Unionists can honestly not see this and vehemently defend the man next door.
I agree with most of the points you are making. I don’t agree that the man next door is “nice” nor do I do not agree that now is the time for a referendum. Why have a referendum that would be lost. The Scottish Independence referendum was brought about by nationalists winning a majority in Holyrood. Similarly the catalyst for an referendum on Irish Unity will and should be a nationalist majority (or even plurality) in Stormont. If demographic trends continue and the correlation between politics and religion remains strong, we can expect this to happen during the next decade. No offence intended, I just wonder if some older nationalists and nationalist politicians want a referendum now because they may have passed their life expectancy before there is a nationalist First Minister.
I also take issue with your assertion of a “corrupt, debt-soaked twenty-six counties”. Sure there has been corruption at the heart of government in the past. That does not mean that the South is a corrupt state. As for debt soaked, yes debt to GDP is very high at 111%, but remember €64bn that went into the banks is not our debt. This element of the debt burden will be eliminated one way or another. In 2006 before the economic collapse the Irish debt to GDP rate was 25.1%. The UK debt stands at £1.4 trillion with debt to GDP creeping towards 100%.
The first argument on Irish Unity for most is not the economic argument. It is the emotional argument. I would guess that for about 80% of both nationalists and unionists, their decision on how they would vote in a border poll is determined by the emotional argument. That is, no matter how worse off they would be economically, they will vote based on their emotions.
You state “even if they showed that we’d be worse off in a re-united Ireland, I’d still argue for the end to partition.” This shows you are one of the 80% of nationalists in which the emotional argument determines your opinion. Equally there are 80% of unionists who would vote to maintain the union even after every economic report showed they would be better off in a UI.
What will decide any future referendum will be the other 20%. These are the people who see the economic argument as the most important. If nationalists want a United Ireland the 20% of Catholics who believe the North is better off in the UK because of the c£10bn block grant need to be convinced otherwise. If these people can be convinced so too will the 20% of Protestants who will vote on whichever option is best for their bank balance.
Of course there will be arguments over health, education etc. but these will be secondary to emotions and economics.
In order for unity to be achieved there needs to be a clear economic argument. My own view is the economic needs of the North are very similar to the economic needs of the island as a whole and very different to the needs of South East England which determines policy for the entire UK. Ireland, in particular needs the agri-food, tourism and FDI sectors to thrive. At the minute only 26 counties out of 32 have the economic levers to achieve this. Independent economic reports need to be commissioned. It needs to conclude on what would happen if economic policy of the south was implemented in the North. How many new private sector jobs would be created and how much extra tax revenue would be generated? It needs to look at how much savings could be made on the ending of duplication of services etc. Add the extra revenue that would be generated and the savings made and compare that figure to the block grant. I would be highly confident that the figure will be greater. A United Ireland makes economic sense. Partition does not.
Thanks for your thorough response, Endgame. And no, I’m not offended that you may see me lowered into the clay before we’ve a First Minister here from the nationalist/republican community. I think you’re wrong – in fact I know you’re wrong – to assume that if you want an end to partition on any grounds other than economic, it must be a matter of emotion. I see it more as a matter of reason. When you’re big you’re rational and can make decisions for yourself, so it’s wrong for some other person/state to be making them for you. That’s a moral argument, not an emotional one. There may also be a layer of emotion, just as there’s an economic layer, but it’d be wrong to classify reason as emotion. You didn’t mention how much money goes out of here into Westminster in the form of taxes – nobody seems to bother thinking much about that in doing the sums. But you’re right, we definitely need some unemotional economic facts so the sums can be properly and impartially done and we all can look at them. I like the idea of a referendum now, not because I’m afraid I might be dead before it happens (although of course I might be. Or you might be) but because it would force people to think about something that’s central to our political thinking but which we kind of hide away from at the same time. Anyway, go raibh maith agat aris.
Do we have our wires crossed Jude? The point I was making is that for most people the primary reason for voting for or against Irish Unity is emotion. The secondary reason is economics. You said yourself that you would vote for unity even if you felt you would be worse off economically, so I am a bit confused when you say “I think you’re wrong – in fact I know you’re wrong”.
As regards my comment regarding motivation for a referendum being held now being linked to age, that was a general comment and not aimed at you specifically. Sure you’re as fit as a fiddle 🙂
After reading your post a second time, I think we agree with the concept but disagree on the wording. What if I call it the ’emotional and moral’ argument instead of the ’emotional’ argument going forward?
NO. Rational, moral, economic and emotional – in that order.
Fit as a fiddle? Never understood that phrase. Most fiddles I know couldn’t stagger to the door. he reason I sayI know you’re wrong (just amusing myself, really…) is that I’m not motivated by emotion even though economics is down my list. I’m motivated by reason -it’s mature and rational to run your own house. And I know you weren’t being personal. Most people say I don’t look a day over ninety…
Emotion is defined as “a strong feeling deriving from one’s circumstances, mood or relationship with others” or “a mental state that arises spontaneously rather than conscious effort”. Is it not fair to argue this strong feeling or mental state can derive from ones morals and rationalism?
Nah. Emotion is “I’ll tear your head off and eat it!”. Rationalism is “Because I dislike you intensely I’m considering removing your head from your neck”. 😉
Because the analogy implies that the Unionists are the”man next door” (intended or no). As written, many a Unionists would read the above and come to that conclusion.
I don’t know…It’s a bit drastic for Neill to say he’d simply upsticks if the situation in Ireland suddenly changed to a new re-unified state. I’d imagine that if any Irishman living here, north or south , simply jumped ship he’d need to ask himself some very hard questions.One would be . Is it really going to be radically different elsewhere. Of course you may not have to put up with as many hypocrites or downright absolute crazies elsewhere, but then again , you just might.
Say , for example you were a good old American and a new state and star was added to your flag .Would you simply say …I’m off I don’t want to live here any more because there’s another star on my flag or because that additional star has somehow altered the much -loved symmetry of the design. ? No..there’d be other reasons for staying and living where you already are. you might have family and a wide circle of friends. you might love the physical beauty of the land.
The facts are that you live in a particular place for a whole raft of different reasons. you might like the climate for example.You might enjoy the turn of the seasons.You’ll hear of people living in hot climates bemoaning the lack of a seasonal feel. You might enjoy the fact that where you live there are no real extremes of weather , tsunamis never occur and there is no volcanic activity hanging…above you… ready to explode and bury your home. You might enjoy the culture in that you live in a place with easy access to the UK and Europe and for the most part you have a reasonable standard of living and way of life. You might enjoy the idea that you are not in a Third World country and have reasonably rainfall and food supplies. The gun laws are not as crazy as in America and you don’t have to walk ten miles for a bucket of clean water.
You have enough disposable income to enjoy all the modern amenities and electronic toys like computers and cellphones and the transport system is reasonable too. It may not be perfect but….
I dare say that most of that wouldn’t change too drastically whether or not an imaginary line was removed from the map or placed somewhere else on that same map, even. . The people you live beside and among would still be the same people . They wouldn’t suddenly grow green scaly skin and popeyes. The funny one would still be funny and the arseholes would still be avoided.
Our biggest problem is not uniting a country. It is re-imagining a people… It is getting a group of politicians who can fearlessly and adequately run the place without faith or favour.Who can leave their mad and wooly fantasies at the door. We need a group of politicians, who, when they cut deals with each other , can actually respect the deals they have made and not break their word. We really haven’t got any of that .What we have at the moment …and seemingly right down through the years ..is a unionist rump who play lip-service to democracy when it suits a purpose but abandon the democratic will when it goes against their preferred stance. In other words , they play games; they prevaricate; they stall; they turn the very institutions into a circus and a laughing stock without a hint of irony. Just yesterday …Sammy Wilson calls one of his fellow politicians a thug and doesn’t even understand that he’s acting like a “corner-boy ” himself by doing so.{“corner -boys” for those not in the loop , were ne’er- do- wells who hung about street corners, spoiling for a ruck}. Sammy’s behaviour , over the years would lead you believe that he is no stranger to corner-boy ways himself.
The DUP has reneged on most of the deals it made with the rest of the community, right across the board. They don’t even deny it, so they really are not trusted by anyone any more. They’ve deliberately put themselves into that position so that no one will trust them and they are obviously, by this ,attempting to get their Government partners to abandon them and thus be responsible for bringing down the government. Their partners are waiting to see what they will come up with next. We are told that this is a “graduated response” but what it really is ….is a suicide masquerading as a political murder. The suicide notes usually come in the wake of Peter Robinson’s summer sojourn.
There you have a sample of our governance in action. Ultimately …when all else fails , they will resort to armed violence….should that be an illegal group picked out of the alphabetical bag of tricks , or by manipulating an armed force through the police or the army…like I say …just saying.
At the moment unionism doesn’t even want to think the unthinkable of a New United Ireland so they’ll deal with that by not allowing anyone else to think about it.It’s not treated as in Scotland where everyone gets at least a chance to air their opinion and debate the pros and cons. Unionism doesn’t even want any of us to think and debate the choices for fear it will somehow contaminate them and also legitimise nationalists’ longings. They’d rather churn up a new fear.
The facts are though , whether or not we have a United Ireland or not , most people’s lives will continue as usual .In this new proposed land…they’ll read what they want. they’ll listen to the music they want to listen to and their tastes in food or film will not be altered one jot.
Why would anyone really want to run away to another country in those circumstance, Neill?
I could never give my loyalty to a United Ireland so why would i wish to stay it isnt a question of running away i could easily stay but if i feel no affinity to the new proposed state why would i stay?
I’m not really talking about giving a “loyalty” or otherwise to a state of any kind.I’m talking about living your own independent life as an individual in a pleasant landscape.This island is undeniably one of the most beautiful places on the planet.It’s only a matter of getting everyone to run it properly as an entity.Talented people of every stripe are what we need to cultivate here.We have very few in government at the moment and they are holding the rest of us back.We need a little more imagination than the dour sourness we are currently trapped with.
Neill
During the course of a working day how often does ‘loyalty’ cross your mind?
Most people (I think) concern themselves with things like money, cars, food, family, health, community, sports, TV, music, fashion, vanity, the gym, church, going on holiday, the environment, investments, people who are famous but no one knows why, children, school for their kids…
The only people I’ve met who are concerned with ‘loyalty’ are those who on occasion riot with police or disregard the will of HMG.
In most other countries people aren’t ‘loyal’ to their country, they’re simply proud to be part of that country.
Now, straight off the bat there would arguably be nothing for you to be proud of in a UI, fair enough.
For myself I’m very much proud of being an Ulsterman and I spend a lot of time laughing at northern nationalists who go down south and are ‘more Irish than Irish’.
They stick out like a sore thumb and are cringeworthingly embarrassing.
I feel that they should admit to being different and accept it.
Likewise I feel that NI’s unionists should accept that they are different from the rest of the UK too.
Especially those that use Irish/Ulster symbols such as the red hand, the shamrock (think YCV badge, Ulster 36th badge etc) or harp.
Although I live abroad at present I’m still considered quite the Ulster nationalist and it matters not a jot if London or Dublin rule Ulster for neither of them are Navan fort or Tullyhogue.
I just don’t want to be swamped in nationalistic dogma, alas at the moment both sides are equally guilty.
I’m proud of where I’m from and its people; swapping one group of disinterested civil servants for another doesn’t really scare me.
It’s just a case of better the devil you know at the moment as the other devil seems to be dressed up in a Celtic top and waving a tricolour which has no appeal for me whatsoever. (and presumably not yourself either?)
Am Ghob…Ah yes …why not have the Navan Fort as the seat of Irish power? That has a great ring to it and quite a historical provenance too.! On another note..I was at a concert the other night..a great English folk guitarist ….Martin Simpson who relished playing a fine version of the local hunting song “The Granemore Hare”..One of the finest slide guitarists I’ve ever heard and there were only about forty people in the audience.. It gives you some idea how far off the page the majority of the population really are. …probably hanging around an ipod listening to Garth Brooks….
Quite a lot AG for all its faults Northern Ireland is my home were my family is based and were I work I have a tremedous affection for the place and I feel very lucky that I was born here.
If Northern Ireland was to disappear i would have no affection for the new state and would simply leave i am not speaking for every unionist just myself.
“Neill”
You could never give your loyalty to a state democratically voted for, as in the inevitable Reunited Ireland.
Yet, you and most, if not all unionists, expect Nationalists to give their loyalty to the undemocratically forged statelet in the Northern part of the country.
It was accepted by Eire Europe and the rst of the world you mean?
I think the main problem is that there is too much pussyfooting around with those of a unionist mind-set. There has been enough bending-over-backwards to try and reach accommodation. Time to move on. Let the demographics work themselves out and the sooner we have a referendum on unification the better. A majority in favour may be a bit unrealistic at this time, but it would clear the air and let everyone see the lie of the land. However, there is one thing certain, a united Ireland is inevitable. It is just a question of the timeframe.
In response to ‘Another Jude’ and the comment: ‘Protestants would have much more influence in a new Ireland where they would make up a sizeable chunk of the population’, I would like to feel that a person’s religion would have no place in the unified State. Anyone born on the island of Ireland is Irish, whether they wish to acknowledge that fact or not and their religion should not matter in the slightest. Some people may wish to describe themselves as ‘British’ and who am I to deny them that right, whatever they are comfortable with is the bottom line.
I would also have to respectfully disagree with ‘Another Jude’ in this regard. There is nothing wrong with the present National Anthem. While the tricolour is representative of the two main strands of Irish society, green and orange in equal proportion with peace between. It would be hard to come up with anything more fitting..As regards a new CapitaI I have never heard anyone protest that Dublin did not fit the bill.
The bottom line is this. Pandering to the whim of what is roughly 15% of the population of Ireland is a waste of time..They can either come on board the train with the rest of us or go their own way.At the end of the day the final decision is theirs, but the train is about to leave the station.
Interesting logic James truly demented though still its a Saturday evening have a good one everybody!
James
“I would also have to respectfully disagree with ‘Another Jude’ in this regard. There is nothing wrong with the present National Anthem. While the tricolour is representative of the two main strands of Irish society, green and orange in equal proportion with peace between. It would be hard to come up with anything more fitting..As regards a new CapitaI I have never heard anyone protest that Dublin did not fit the bill.
The bottom line is this. Pandering to the whim of what is roughly 15% of the population of Ireland is a waste of time..They can either come on board the train with the rest of us or go their own way.”
This is why there is no United Ireland.
This is why Northern Ireland exists.
With this mentality there will never be a ‘united’ Ireland, only an Ireland with the border removed and a recipe for trouble for the next few centuries.
I think a UI could be a great idea if handled properly. (FYI, I think NI will always be a first-rate, second rate place as long as it’s part of the UK, Belfast will never excel nor punch above its weight under London’s rules).
But your ‘sure everything’s fine’ attitude is NOT handling it properly.
The biggest enemy of nationalism is nationalism.
Today’s blog begs the well-heeled question which the Loyalist cohort stubbornly refuses to donate an answer to: what’s there not to like about the Free Southern Stateen?
And to go from the general to the specific: the Free Southern Stateen’s Foreign Minister, Charlie ‘Charles’ Flanagan.
With a monumental display of misjudgment Peter Robinson played the Loyalist version of Lanigan’s Ball on Thursday and which he, of course, renamed Flanagan’s Ball:
He stepped in and I stepped out again
I stepped out and he stepped in again.
According to informed sources the reason for this course of inaction was based solely on PR’s taste in entertainment: whereas the circus is anathema to the profoundly morose aesthetic of the First Minister, the type of theatre he most favours is the one which has traditionally been the first choice of all Unionist Leaders: the classical Japanese drama known as Noh.
Thus there is a particular providence in not only the fall of a sparrow but also in the title of today’s blog: ‘Time to draw back the veil’. An Oriental pursuit if ever there was one.
In Noh drama there are four major types of performer:
1. The Shite: this performer first appears as a ghost and then, in the second act, assumes a human form.
2. The Shitetsure: this is the Shite’s companion and is invariably togged out in a spectacular silk kimono intricately embroidered with iris-patterned decorations.
3. The Koken: these are the equivalent of stage hands and in the case of the Wee Six, the dispensable makeweights of the major Unionist parties. Linguists will note that ‘Koken’ rhymes with ‘token’.
4. The Jiutai: these are the members of the chorus, slanted, over-committed and extremely vocal, and are nowadays found in all branches of the media, not least those in the control of would be Knights of the Realm. They are found in equal measure south of the border down Wexico way.
There are, erm, Noh marks for guessing which particular role Peter R favours. It is generally accepted that this taste for things theatrically Japanese first manifested itself in PR when he participated in a school production of ‘The Mikado’. Naturally, PR appropriated to himself the role of Pooh Bah. Nodding dogs of the thespian world have remarked the clean and logical line of progression from Pooh Bah to The Shite.
It is rather a shame that so intent was PR in playing to the gallery in his role as The Shite that he failed to notice what a chastened Charlie ‘Charles’ Flanagan was up to on the Friday, on his return to the Free Southern Stateen.
For if PR had taken the time and the bother to notice he would have noted that despite the FSS Foreign Minister’s profoundly morose physiognomy – granted, the type of dial which has been the birthright of every circus clown from Grock and Coco to Bozo and Bono – he is, in fact, a singularly unique individual in the fact that though he was born with the normal compliment of elbows (two) he came into this world unequipped with even a single, solitary funny bone to his profoundly political FG name.
The genes associated with the latter fact saw to it that, where flora are concerned, he was also delivered with a profound allergy to Easter lilies and an almost pathological propensity towards the poppy.
Thus, Friday found the FSS Foreign Minister in the mood marsupial which seemed to grip the 26 counties as the antipodean catchphrase ‘kangaroo court’ swept the stateen from Malin Head down to the Saltee Islands themselves where even the great Auk itself can no longer get a gauk in.
With billy can in hand, Charlie ‘Charles’ Flanagan was honouring the homerically heroic and shamefully forgotten Irish swagmen who abandoned not only the cool shade of the Coolabah tree but also the newly captured jumbucks in their tucker bags in the billabong to join up and join in the Great Donkey Derby 14-18.
And this was just Friday. All Perkie wishes, and by this time the great Peacnik is well nigh purple in the face pleading, though he is loth to admit it, is for Peter R to remember the lines of Flanagan’s Ball:
Three long weeks I’ll spend in Dublin
Three long weeks I’ll spend learning it all
Learning new steps for Flanagan’s Ball.
Dublin? To repeat: just drive down to Clontibret, Pete, and ask directions from there. The orange groves are in bloom this time of the year in the FSS.
Jeezis… Mighty Perk …For a moment there i really thought you might be talking shite but with some reflection and mostly a quick offside google …I discovered….late in life…{granted] …that “the Shite “….is …really …, the person who performs the technique in aikido in a Japanese “Noh” play .and not some insane contrivance that your fevered brain has spewed out through your ears… There’s bound to be some mileage to be made from that “Noh” reference…possibly in relation to the sanctification of one Lord Bannside in the upcoming after -life Ulster Hall gig….. i really do love a bit of education…another mad fact to gull the natives with…..lovely .”.Ulster says Noh…!!!”
I’m not really talking about giving a “loyalty” or otherwise to a state of any kind.I’m talking about living your own independent life as an individual in a pleasant landscape.This island is undeniably one of the most beautiful places on the planet.It’s only a matter of getting everyone to run it properly as an entity.Talented people of every stripe are what we need to cultivate here.We have very few in government at the moment and they are holding the rest of us back.We need a little more imagination than the dour sourness we are currently trapped with.
Paddy the only people holding “us” back are the corner boys and creationists of the dupper variety. I fear that until the protestant working class are educated beyond primary school level we will never have peace here and certainly not in an United Ireland.
However if we ever do get a referendum I will be voting for reunification. I used to think that logic and civility (and politics) would be sufficient but have gradually realised that thicos'(sic) know only ignorance and brute force
In the parlance of the young “bring it on”.
Jude i apologise for this viewpoint as I know it isn’t one that you subscribe to
Angela – absolutely no need to apologise. Discussion involves people with differing views. Thanks for yours.
Absolutely. Well said.
Hi everyone,
Jude, just signed up to your blog, having enjoyed your commentary in the papers over the years as well as your amusing novels. We can argue all day about whether there will be a united Ireland anytime soon- what does jump out for me when reading political updates in the Irish News/ Telegraph is the complete unwillingness of senior Unionist figures to accept that times have moved on from the “Troubles” – they basically show no intention to work with their Nationalist/Catholic counterparts in government for the good of everyone in the current political structure of the six counties. I’m not a massive fan of Sinn Fein either and i’m not saying they are doing all that good a job but Peter Robinson and his cronies are basically behaving like children by running away from the issues that matter on the ground.
Neil, as a Republican, I think it unfortunate that you would feel the need to leave if there was a UI. As others point out, it should not be a matter of loyalty to any proposed new state.
Many of us here feel no loyalty whatsoever to NI or the British state, yet we persevere. We may not be happy about it but we are where we are. And are still good citizens.
Jude, sorry but I am not normally like this, but you really have to do something about Norma. Her abusive language and her misguided sense of superiority are really starting to grate. Some of the stuff she has written here is reprehensible, ignorant and just plain ‘keek’.
I have drawn her attention to this, C. On a yellow card…
I am disappointed Neil that you did not address any of the points which I made in my post. Making personal remarks does not do anything to advance your point of view, which I respect totally. I am sure you can do better!
Sorry if i was being flippant however your point if we cant persuade them then we will ignore them argument is a bit pointless and self defeating in the end.It shows we really have not moved on much at all really.
Dr C
I’ve noticed over the course of prowling on the blogosphere that many/most nationalists see Britain as ‘the squatter’.
It seems to be simplified as a ‘Brits in Ireland’ situation and that’s that.
Why is this?
Why is it never considered that the plantation(s) were the work of more than one player?
Scotland was still an independent country back then. Scotland provided most of the ‘planters’ (at the behest of a Scottish King on the throne of England).
These Scottish planters have constantly been a pain in the Royal ass either as republicans or loyalists.
Three Ulster counties had diddly squat to do with the Crown scheme.
A Catholic Scottish clan also got involved in the Plantation (McDonalds/McDonnells) and then promptly became equally enthusiastic about the rebellion (mainly due to clan Campbell being in the neighbourhood).
‘England’ has been landed with NI.
It does not hold bridgehead as hysterical nationalist quarters might claim.
Russia WANTS Kaliningrad. It is important to them.
Britain does NOT want NI.
This is a gift to nationalism.
So, how then to make this work?
You both have the same objectives in this game so why is there no UI yet?
Is it possible that some elements of the current nationalist culture of MOPEry, grievance airing and tricolours is perhaps flawed?
If not, why not?
If so, why so?
In the late 19th century the Japanese emperor decided to turn everything upside down and pretty much started from scratch (in terms of society, industry etc…).
It was an almighty effort and upheaval.
I sometimes think whichever ‘ideal’ in NI catches itself on first will be the winner for the next century (or more in the case of nationalism, it only has to win once.).
Luckily for nationalism the ‘no surrender’ mentality is as strong as ever and there is no sign of a unionist Meiji appearing anytime soon to tighten everybody up.
To me this appears to be the perfect opportunity for nationalism to give itself the Meiji treatment.
Just a thought. Carry on.
I think any suggestion of a referendum about unity too premature.
With the demographics in favour of increased nationalist representation it would be better to proceed with the “greening” of the wee six and promoting cross border projects in each and every case where cooperation and investment from both sides will show positive results.
This should shake out any unforseen glitches and it would certainly give some idea of what the final removal of partition would mean for all the people of Ireland
Ah Jude, where do I start?
Since I first logged on to this blog, there has been no one who has talked more about partition and unification more than yourself. This obsession has been blindly followed by your republican lap dogs, of which there are many, and little or no tolerance for anything remotely unionist. It seems that the unionists can be vilified at will, yet when Norma or Neil steps out of line they get the ‘yellow’ card. The attitude on this site is that it’s not just lack of tolerance, it’s that much more, it actually comes across as hatred. Even on this current blog, we are getting statements such as ‘unionists are not educated past primary school’, or ‘if you don’t like it here go back to Britain’.
Maybe we should have a little education lesson! The last time the island of Ireland was unified was under British rule, so if it’s reunification that you wish for I’m sure that could be arranged. The Irish were incapable of running the country themselves, driven by division amongst the many fiefdoms, mainly caused by greed and the quest for power. From memory, I think there was a union of sorts in 1642, as the Catholic Confederation of Ireland, but it fell apart due to internal division, with many deciding to support the Royalists in the War of the Three Kingdoms. A few years later Cromwell sorted it all out. The British have been in Ireland many centuries before the USA existed, I don’t hear many demanding that the country is return to the native people of America.
The facts are, the two sides are getting more polarised. Republicans are in total denial of their murderous role over the years, and actually do believe that it was all the British’s fault. We cannot equate what happened hundreds of years ago to modern society, in fact we can’t even make an equation with the 70s and today. Perhaps it’s time for republicans to forget about their ideological manna, put their full weight behind the state of Northern Ireland, and we would have a much better place.
Sweet William – when you started referring to the contributors to this site as dogs, I was tempted not to read on. Actually I’ve skimmed down to your very weak analogy: the white man destroyed the native people of North America, therefore the Irish should know their place. Mmmm. I’m tempted -in fact I’ll yield to the temptation: that says more about you than it does about the situation in Ireland
HeyJude, didn’t think for one minute you’d agree with anything I said, and when I referred to ‘lap dogs’. I didn’t for one minute class people as of the canine variety, and you know only too well what I meant. You can mix my words all you want, it’s your blog as you remind me quite regularly. The analogy to America was no weaker than the gorilla in the back room, it’s 2014, we, as unionists are told to forget about the Troubles and move on. Yet we have people on the republican side referring to stolen land in the 1600s, and looking for payback for previous wrongdoings in the Middle Ages. The saying by GA, that I detested, ‘don’t want a Fenian about the place’, is outdated, it should say, ‘don’t want a Prod about the place’.
Jude, please red card me now, I really have more to do with my time.
Sweet William – if you call people dogs, you mustn’t pretend you didn’t mean it. But I am sad you’d choose to opt out of discussion rather than debate your point of view. I disagree with you but that’s usually the case in debate. I’ll keep my red card in my pocket for people who simply indulge in name-calling. To your credit you don’t. But if you have other pressing business, that’s your choice, even though as I say I’ll be sorry to lose you.