The possible closure of St Mary’s University College has sparked debate surrounding Catholic Education. I have read that faith based schools cause ‘segregation’ and are the ‘root of division’ here in the North.
Catholic schools are inclusive to all. They are open to pupils of all religions and of none. They promote mutual respect, peace and reconciliation. They foster a social awareness that reaches out to the wider community.
However it is clear some can’t get their head around why a Catholic College still exists. Institutions like St Mary’s remain in demand around the world. You only have to go across the water to see the competition for spaces in Catholic schools. It’s highly unlikely that Catholic institutions in England, Europe, North America and beyond are described as segregated or are faced with possible closure.
I have no objection to integrated education and I support the widening of parental choice- but faith-based education must also be a parental choice. Parents continue to choose Catholic education for various reasons. Perhaps it’s because of the Catholic ethos it offers or the fact that Catholic schools continue to top league tables. But it is certainly not because they have a siege mentality and want to segregate their children from those of differing backgrounds.
Likewise the option to train as a teacher in a Catholic institution must remain a choice. Stephen Farry may be correct in stating that the North’s colleges are vulnerable to change and to cuts, but cuts should be based on the principle of justice and fairness. St Mary’s faces cuts that equate to around 30% of its overall budget. The cuts to the College should be proportional to the cuts proposed for both Queens University and University of Ulster – around the 10% mark.
Why would Mr Farry wish to implement unequal cuts to one of the best performing teacher training colleges in Europe?
Catholic Education is not the root of division. But Stephen Farry is at the root of politicising the Catholic education system by forcing upon it unfair cuts.
Paul Maskey along with Sinn Féin Republican Youth have established a petition protesting this injustice. Please sign this petition to stop the closure of St Mary’s University College.
– Patrice Hardy, SF Councillor for Mid and East Antrim.
Just click to make your voice heard:
The Alliance party are a tiny party. For them to try to end training for Catholic and Irish medium education in the north of Ireland is undemocratic in the extreme. How many integrated schools teach the Irish language? How many integrated schools teach Gaelic games? How many integrated schools foster Irish culture? The reason we needed Catholic and Irish medium schools in the first place was so that our culture would not be washed away in “The Murder Machine” as Pádraig Pearse described it. Nothing about integrated education indicates to me that these circumstances have changed.
I went to an integrated school. We had the option to learn Irish (or another language). We had male and female Gaelic teams. We studied Irish History and Culture. The only difference is that it was balanced with the education of other cultures
Thanks Sara, your school was obviously a fully integrated school. There are many schools which claim to be state schools or integrated schools which do not give the option of learning Irish and in which Ireland or Irish is a dirty word.
This is a very good point Colmán , if schools are to be mixed, merged or integrated it’s very very important that they offer these topics and sports.
I am extremely proud to have come from the school I did and even prouder to say how diverse my experience within the school was. The school placed so much importance on knowing and understanding cultures so that we could ultimately respect them.
Coming from a family which attends a Church of Ireland and having attended a Methodist Girls Brigade and a Protestant primary school. I feel that going to an integrated college opened my eyes so much and allowed me experiences I wouldn’t have had otherwise. I tried both Gaelic football and learning the Irish language (I gave though since I am no good at languages or sports). But I would never have had that opportunity if it hadn’t of been for the school,
I feel it also prepared me for my career path in teaching, as it gave me the understanding to allow me to train to teach in any school I want to teach in.
That sounds like a great school. I think that all integrated schools should be like that. To deny an Irish child the opportunity to learn Irish and to learn about their own country is wrong!
CBS, Corpus Christi College, St. Rose’s, St. Genevieve’s – a few schools not topping league tables!
The catholic ethos – mass attendance as low as 4% in West Belfast.
Jeez
What a raft of contextless and misleading blogs recently: http://sluggerotoole.com/2015/01/20/paul-maskey-we-need-to-save-st-marys-from-unfair-cuts-and-a-disinterested-minister/
Right, bit by bit then:
“The possible closure of St Mary’s University College has sparked debate surrounding Catholic Education” – There are no plans to close it. The debate is not surrounding ‘Catholic Education’ it’s surrounding the high social and financial price tags for segregated education in a sick place such as Northern Ireland.
“I have read that faith based schools cause ‘segregation’ and are the ‘root of division’ here in the North” –
And possibly you have read rather more balanced pieces regarding how we don’t need so many schools (how many primary schools do wee villages need?)
.
Most pieces I have read refer to the exacerbation of the situation rather than the blaming the Catholic school system entirely.
This is worthy of the Newsletter’s letter page.
“Catholic schools are inclusive to all. They are open to pupils of all religions and of none. They promote mutual respect, peace and reconciliation. They foster a social awareness that reaches out to the wider community.”
That’s the theory, yes, and can be applied to other countries with no qualms whatsoever, which is why I suspect that so often advocates of the status quo are forced to ‘refer to other countries’ as it doesn’t practically apply to the wee six.
You know it. I know it. We all know it.
The theory and practice do not converge in NI.
There are exceptions like St Columbanus, Bangor but as a rule of thumb there is a psychological block in NI that doesn’t exist elsewhere, hence, comparisons with other countries are void and irrelevant.
“I have no objection to integrated education and I support the widening of parental choice- but faith-based education must also be a parental choice” –
It is a choice and always will be.
Even if we merged a fair portion of the schools it could be done in a way that there will always be a choice for those that really want faith based education.
So, a tad misleading methinks.
“But it is certainly not because they have a siege mentality and want to segregate their children from those of differing backgrounds”
Ok, but many Protestants (the bad guys that we are) DO have a siege mentality and think we don’t want to mix with Catholics, ergo, we’ll not avail of these superior Catholic schools.
We would if we don’t have any choice e.g. if some one merged St Pius and Magherafelt High then we’d be forced to sit beside THEM.
Some will be utterly unimpressed others will be indifferent and on the other extreme you’ll have people availing themselves of Gaelic games and language for the first time.
“Likewise the option to train as a teacher in a Catholic institution must remain a choice” – Could this choice not still remain if the two institutions were merged with certain provisions?
“Stephen Farry may be correct in stating that the North’s colleges are vulnerable to change and to cuts, but cuts should be based on the principle of justice and fairness” –
The money has to come from somewhere, SF for instance are very opposed to Mr Farry’s (BOOOOO!) decision to halt the Magee expansion in Derry. And now they oppose this. Do they want BOTH?
They have to apply common sense here, they’ve ring fenced the Education budget so that unnecessarily divided schools can remain open or squashed together as ‘shared campuses’ as such Mr Farry’s dept has taken it in the neck cuts wise and he mist do what he can.
“St Mary’s faces cuts that equate to around 30% of its overall budget. The cuts to the College should be proportional to the cuts proposed for both Queens University and University of Ulster – around the 10% mark.”
Bad comparison, the cut here was on a par POUND FOR POUND with that of Stranmillis down the road i.e. BOTH institutions had their premias removed.
BOTH endured the same cuts.
“Why would Mr Farry wish to implement unequal cuts to one of the best performing teacher training colleges in Europe?
Not one but TWO teacher training colleges, again, misleading. Because he needs the money.
“But Stephen Farry is at the root of politicising the Catholic education system by forcing upon it unfair cuts” –
It is a fair cut in that ‘the Proddy’ college also endured the same cuts.
This is a pathetic case of crying victim.
“Paul Maskey along with Sinn Féin Republican Youth have established a petition protesting this injustice” –
I’ll read it later when I can stomach it, his piece over on Slugger was awful, it assumed the reader to be an emotionally unstable moron who will scream outrage as soon as the various emotional buttons are pushed (not unlike fleggers actually).
We have too many schools and probably too many teachers. Merge, slash ’em, save some money and help out Mr Farry’s dept instead of trying to outflank him (yes, some of us can see what you’re doing).
Or use the money to open some of these Irish mediums that you keep promising…
http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/08/05/reducing-duplicity-within-the-education-system/
THANK YOU for mentioning that Stranmillis are getting the same cuts. As a student of Stranmillis, I feel discriminated against that St Mary’s are getting a large amount of attention with regards to funding whereas Stranmillis (who sit in the same position) are seemingly being pushed to one side and deemed irrelevant.
I actually wasn’t aware of Stranmillis’ cuts until Maskey slipped it into his post over on Slugger O’Toole, if I had blinked I would have missed it.
Now, as someone who studies at Stranmillis, have you any thoughts on the idea of a merger with St Mary’s?
Would it even be practical or possible?
We do a few Diversity and Mutual Understanding days with St Mary’s every year and it’s brilliant having all of us together.
Honestly, my view is that merging the two colleges wouldn’t do any harm. It would mean more staff and resources, and most importantly it would give everyone an equal teacher education in the same environment with the same opportunities. It would also mean all funding is going into one college, rather than two that are doing virtually the same thing.
As far as I’m aware there was a proposal to merge all teacher training including PGCE into one college im NI but St Mary’s rejected it, which rather saddens me.
Cheers Sara
I have to say, a merger sounds like an option worth investigating, but, we’ll see….
Thank you for your comments.
What really stood out for me was ,
‘We have too many schools and probably too many teachers. Merge, slash ‘em, save some money and help out Mr Farry’s dept instead of trying to outflank him (yes, some of us can see what you’re doing).’
It’s comical really because you are speaking to me as someone who is just out to score political points- since some of you can see what I am doing?
You may or may not be aware that as well as a SF councillor I am actually a teacher.
Too many teachers you say? I challenge you to come into one of our schools (faith based, intergrated or state) and try to teach.
I very much doubt you would be using terms such as ‘slash’em’ when referring to the number of teachers.
Hopefully now it is clear to you that my piece is based from TEACHER experience- I have taught in state, intergrated and faith based schools. So please try to refrain from the (yes, some of us can see what you are doing) when infact you quite clearly don’t.
But again, it was lovely to hear from you and thank you for your comments. 🙂
Hello Patrice, thankyou for responding
“It’s comical really because you are speaking to me as someone who is just out to score political points- since some of you can see what I am doing? “
Not JUST to score political points but you are the perfect candidate for such a topic given your teaching background.
It’s hardly comical, the language that you and your party colleague Paul Maskey use is quite clear in its one-sided, objectivity-free, emotionally button-pushing content, so yes, it does quite clearly smack of a suspicious bias especially given the unfair position your party puts him (Farry) in.
That’s not to say that I doubt the sincerity of your personal ambition to keep St Mary’s steaming along as it is but there is just too much of the old knife-twisting into Mr Farry to pass these pleads off as purely community or educationally minded concern e.g.
COMPERE: “Why would Mr Farry wish to implement unequal cuts to one of the best performing teacher training colleges in Europe?”
AUDIENCE: “BECAUSE HE’S A FIEND!!!!???”
COMPERE: “Well I didn’t say that but….”
“You may or may not be aware that as well as a SF councillor I am actually a teacher.
Too many teachers you say? I challenge you to come into one of our schools (faith based, intergrated or state) and try to teach.
“
Yes, I am aware that you are a teacher.
To be fair I said “PROBABLY too many teachers” and I said this in the context of should we implement a normalistion of the educational set up e.g. remove the need for mixed villages to have TWO separate schools (instead merge them if practical, split the facilities and sell off any excess assets that MAY be then surplus to requirements) then there’s a good chance that we’d find a bit of a surplus of teachers.
Not 100% sure admittedly, but it stands to reason.
On a lighter note, with your challenge to me to “to come into one of our schools (faith based, intergrated or state) and try to teach”, well, once upon a time I dabbled with the idea of being a teacher.
But at the time one of the main factors against this career path was the difficulty of obtaining a permanent teaching position in NI at the time and there was hee haw chance of me wanting to remain as a teacher in Scotland for the rest of my life.
Perhaps things have changed and there is now a shortage of teachers, which, ironically would be good for me personally as that means (contrary to the information by previous enquiries) that my wife (a practicing Catholic and former teacher in a Catholic private school who personally is against the unnecessarily segregated NI school set up) could perhaps find a role for herself in NI after all.
Previous enquiries have been made to close family who are teachers and an acquaintance who have taken up civil service jobs on account of not being able to secure a teaching position (though I haven’t seen him in 6 years, maybe he obtained a teaching position eventually…)
“I very much doubt you would be using terms such as ‘slash’em’ when referring to the number of teachers”
Again, this would have to be looked at once ‘the dust settles’ if we were to merge X amount of schools and use the savings to build a few more Irish mediums and schools in places like Cookstown (which could really use another school).
“Hopefully now it is clear to you that my piece is based from TEACHER experience- I have taught in state, integrated and faith based schools. So please try to refrain from the (yes, some of us can see what you are doing) when in fact you quite clearly don’t.
“
I didn’t doubt your teaching insight.
If you are going to use party like language and invoke emotional rather than logical responses all the while finger pointing then expect to be called out on it.
You have the experience of being a teacher and write from that point of view and I have experience of being a (former) sectarian bigot whose dogma was fostered purely in a segregated educational set-up.
I have seen too many former bigots, loyalists and bandsmen change their ways after being taken out of a non-segregated environment to regard these conversions as mere coincidence, unfortunately, for most of them these various roads to Damascus were found outside of Northern Ireland (fittingly, given the metaphor…).
I have no doubt in my mind (despite the existence of unchangeable bigots within the various mixed environments of mixed schools or work environments) that many many more people would alter their bigoted outlook if they had the chance to sit down daily with people from ‘the other side’ from a young enough age.
If you wish to prop up the segregated system that we have at the moment then you are free to do so, however, when marching season comes around do not hold yourself as blameless when the drums start thundering and tensions start boiling for the sectarian machine has many fuel sources and keeping people separated is one them.
This I know from experience.
AG
Dr C
Apologies for the ‘tag on’ of my blog at the bottom, but, I’m hoping that she or others will read it to avoid regurgitating some of the more common points that I’ve come across.
Although I shan’t deny that pathetic vanity might also play a part….
Am Ghobsmacht
With this flurry of activity from M/s Hardy(on Judes blogspot ) and Paul Maskey (on Slugger) one might infer mischievously that there is an imminent election!If their party is apparently so concerned about this issue ,they should have voted (along with their D U P partners) more funding to Mr Farrys Department.Its not as if the West Belfast Westminister seat is under any serious threat.The Social Investment Fund(aka the Slush Fund) utilised by the two dominant parties to further their core vote might have been better diverted to D E L , if Sinn Fein are serious about this campaign.
You probably know this already, argenta, but just in case: I’m open to guest blogging from any quarter, providing it doesn’t land me up in a courtroom or isn’t just undiluted spleen. So do feel free to counter any posts by guests -or me – with one of your own. If you want to, of course…
“providing it doesn’t land me up in a courtroom or isn’t just undiluted spleen”
Dr C, you do so crack me consistently ‘up’.
Steady on the undiluted spleen? I’ll bear that in mind…
Sara was the RUC and British army allowed access to your school? Were poppys openly for sale?,,Were Royal births celebrated? If the answer to any of the above is yes,in the words of Jim Royle :”integrated my arse” !
Both Poppy’s and Easter Lily’s were allowed to be worn, however none were sold with the College. I personally chose to wear a poppy every year as did many of my peers, this decision was respected. As was the case with those who wore the Easter Lily
Why would the RUC and the British Army be in the school or have access to the school?
In other words the answer to that question is no.
Royal births were talked about among students but not celebrated by the college.
Each year at the carol service, a minister/priest from each denomination was invited. However none had any say over the service. The service was lead by students of all faiths and none.
I was debating a few weeks ago with a Unionist man on Twitter who was of the opinion that if anyone supports Catholic schools then they are “bigots”. Yep, even parents who just want their children to get the best education. He was also of the opinion that Protestants and children/families of other faiths weren’t allowed to go to Catholic schools. That just exposed his complete ignorance of Catholic schools but I didn’t think he would’ve changed his mind on Catholic schooling even if he did know that people of all faiths can attend Catholic schools.
So, I asked him what was his opinion on the Orange Order and their open rejection to anyone of any other faith joining their organisation and also the Orange Orders open hostile and bigoted attitude towards Catholics. Of course the Orange Order wasn’t “bigoted” to this Unionist man, but Catholic schools that are open to children and families of ALL faiths (by this point I informed him of this fact), who promote equality and respect for all, are still “bigoted”, it didn’t matter that all the evidence says different……
To be blunt, problem with some Unionists and others who are hostile to Catholic schooling, its not that their “Pro integration” its usually because their “Anti- Catholic”. As mentioned in the article, catholic schools are maybe the best schools in the world, their certainly up there at the top end of the tables. In England there is literally thousands of families, some Catholic, some of other faiths or none, selling their homes and trying to buy closer to Catholic schools in order to stand a better chance of getting their children into these highly sought after schools. I believe there are documentaries done by Channel 4 a few years ago on this topic that are currently on youtube.
I’m not against integrated education but I’m certainly not against Catholic schooling either.
“To be blunt, problem with some Unionists and others who are hostile to Catholic schooling, its not that their “Pro integration” its usually because their “Anti- Catholic”. ”
Very true Ryan, I’d imagine if some schools were merged we’d see a small increase in private Protestant faith schools for those repelled by the idea of their children sitting beside Catholics.
“I’m not against integrated education but I’m certainly not against Catholic schooling either”
I dunno about you, but I think there’s room for both.
I constantly bleat on about examples such as Magherafelt where three schools could be merged (St Pius, Magherafelt High and Spires integrated).
Spires could be sold off to developers and St Pius & MHS could retain their premises only divided up into junior and senior blocks (they’re on the same street, almost opposite each other).
And for those who wish to avail of Catholic education in the fine Schools of St Mary’s or St Pat’s Maghera then so be it. Not to mention St Columb’s, Draperstown.
At a stroke we’ve saved money and have people would normally have nothing to do with each other coming into contact on a daily basis. And who knows, perhaps some of the Protestant kids might dip their toes into the waters of GAA and Irish language?
This argument gets broken down into extremes:
We don’t need one extreme where communities are segregated due to the ‘path of least resistance’ that we have now and we certainly don’t need the other extreme where all Catholic schools are closed down/integrated.
That would be as stupid as it would be impossible to implement.
There is room for a middle ground where we can choice for Catholic education, save money and have people mixing.
And maybe if there’s some money left over in the pot we can finally get some of these Gaelic mediums that have been pitched.
A win, win, win, win scenario if you ask me.
That’s my look at it anyway.