On the face of it, I can sympathise with Kenny Donaldson and others like him. He represents a group ‘Innocent Victims United’ and he was on The View last night. With him was Alan Brecknell whose father was killed in 1975 by the UVF.
Donaldson’s line is that it’s absurd to equate the victim of violence with the person who inflicts violence, particularly in terms of compensation and support. That’s hard to argue with. If someone breaks into your house and hits you with a baseball bat which fractures your skull, but your wife gets him with a kitchen knife and leaves him with permanent injuries, you’d find it hard that he should receive the support and help that you would feel entitled to. After all, you did nothing wrong, he did plenty wrong.
But that wasn’t the line Alan Brecknell took. The people who killed his father in 1975, he said, were in their seventies by now or maybe dead. They probably had children and grandchildren. Disrupting their lives, inflicting pain in retaliation wouldn’t bring his father back. He was prepared to treat the family and even the perpetrators as victims of the conflict, just as he and his father were.
If I were personally involved in such a situation, I’d find it easier to slip into the Kenny Donaldson view of things. It seems more logical, rational; and it would cater to my thirst for justice/revenge. I can see why Kenny Donaldson and the people he represents feel as they do.
But looking at the two men side by side in the studio, there was a marked difference between the two. Brecknell was calm, even smiling as he spoke; Donaldson appeared nervous, tense, angry. And I asked myself, which man would I prefer to be? Brecknell, without a doubt.
Why? Because somehow or other, he had defeated the hurt inflicted on him. The rage which could have eaten into him had found no entry point. He was a man who’d faced up to the awful thing that had happened to him and faced it down. You could say, as I’ve heard other people say in such circumstances, that you have to let it go and forgive, otherwise the loss will eat into you and ruin your life. You could also say that it’s a clear example of something, in a Christian country, we don’t see much of: loving your enemies.
And there is a wider logic to Brecknell’s position. The person who inflicts the pain is, hard though some find it to believe, a victim too. For example, IRA volunteers were told before joining that their chances of being killed or spending a long time in prison were very high, yet they went ahead and joined. Why? Because they found themselves in a place and a time of brutal injustice, because they found themselves in a state which had abused a large portion of its citizens through gerrymander and discrimination, because…All sorts of bad things had conspired to place the potential Volunteer where he or she was. And likewise I assume for loyalist paramilitaries.
I’m probably not doing a very good job in trying to get a point across which is complex and calculated to raise emotions. What I’m saying is, the Donaldson position is logical and totally understandable, but it operates without a context. The Brecknell position accepts that context, at the time of the killing and now, and comes to a final position in the light of that context. In my opinion it’s a more difficult position to arrive at, but more heroic and self-preserving than that which would focus solely on the victim-perpetrator and draw judgements from that alone.
Looking at the body language of the two men last night, it was easy to see which was suffering more.
Kenny Donaldson’s insistence that we all agree with the unionist version of the past before any progress was made in dealing with victims was churlish and unreasonable in my view.
Of course, I would have sympathy with Kenny for his loss, however, he has no right to insist that we all agree with his views on what happened here.
Unionism in gerneral seems determined to narrate the troubles as they saw it, leaving no room for alternative or opposing opinion. That is no way to maturely deal with the past. Indeed, that attitude of our way or no way, goes someway to explaining why things kicked off in the first place.Everyone’s voice must be heard, not just those that agree with Kenny.
Situations Vacant
It was significant that the programme was broadcast on the day that Paul McCauley was laid to rest. The Bully Boys left Paul for dead, however, Mark Durkan articulated the fact that Paul’s spirit remains alive in Derry.
The programme also made reference to the absurdity of appointing four Victims’ Commissioners and the fact that at present the office remains vacant. The First Minister justified the appointment of a special adviser with an inflated salary. He is on public record stating that the salary is commensurate with salaries in private industry? There was no need for an open competition for the post. It would appear strange that there is no Victims’ Commissioner in post, in spite of the fact that there are at least two suitable candidates available. Two does not appear to go into four in the north of Ireland. What might Mr Hain say about his legacy on this matter?
It was a refreshing change to watch and listen to the speakers during the broadcast. The individuals concerned conducted a debate with respect and without rancour. I trust some of the elected representatives will endeavour to adhere to the standard set by the two gentlemen concerned.
Not a bad blog at all my problem with the victim debate is a straightforward one the victim had no choice it was inflicted on them by the perpetrator be they loyalist republican or state they could have said no but they didnt I didn’t lose anybody in the troubles and I feel uneasy telling others how to react or telling them to move on and accept it I think if there was genuine contrition perhaps that would be a start to the healing process?
Fair points, neill. Like you I haven’t been personally hurt the way these men were. But I think I’d give a pass on the contrition thing. Many people who did terrible things did so in the belief that they were doing something that needed doing, and still think so. I think if we wait on all combatants to be contrite we’ll be waiting until Doomsday. I’d settle for a general acceptance that pain and injustice was meted out by all parties, that it was totally regrettable that a single life was lost, and leave it at that.
Although there are differing views on whether there was a football match during the Xmas truce, during WW1, between the British & the Germans, what it does illustrate is that opponents very often are drawn into conflicts for a variety of reasons, in some cases unaware of what it is all about and therefore to some degree both sides are “victims”. The lesson to be learnt is to find out how these conflicts come about, and lay blame where it belongs. In the north, that particular tragedy was written centuries ago, stoked up on an annual basis to this very day. The British are far from innocent, ask them about their role in the north. They remain the silent partner, however, they are the ones on control.
I get your point exactly Jude.It’s all about context, like everything else . Nations don’t go to war and slaughter each other willy-nilly , just for the fun of it. They usually arrive at a war -footing through a series of steps . It’s not as if the two world wars or any war arrives as a fully formed egg. There is a reason . it might be misguided , like Tony Blair’s Iraq adventure , but people don’t find themselves in these killing situations for no reason.
Mix into that the divided loyalties of the Norneverland community where one man’s hero was another man’s villain and you have another layer.Stir in every person’s origin story and personal education or life in the place and you arrive at 1968 and the glowing ember of a possible fire .From there, the blaze which resulted got out of hand and some weaker minds made use of the chaos and resulting cruelty to vent their own personal spleens. I’m thinking of the slasher murders in Belfast by the likes of the Shankill Butchers , which went beyond mere hatred into obscenity …There was ranting and hollering in the streets , killings , shootings , bombings , murders on all sides . Many of them in these diverse groupings even professed to be religious and even Christians .So what part of Christianity did they not understand? Was it turn the other cheek? Was it the bit about forgiveness?
Mind , if they weren’ t cleaving to that Christian ideal, they would have no problem with the resulting wickedness. They wouldn’t be tearing themselves inside out to justify it to themselves. It would mean nothing to them.Many in Norneverland seem to profess their Christianity but don’t actually believe it at base….and that goes right across the board.
All that said, ….there are some bad people out there too who might be victims of their environment or upbringing , but we all need protection from them rather than promising them riches for being good little boys.Mental hospitals are full of people like that who are unable by mental makeup to play by any rules. In the end , we all make our life choices and each one of us should be responsible for each of our actions, after reaching some kind of “use of reason”. Then again many never , ever reach that place in their entire lives.
One thing is for sure .If a man can’t let his hatred go it’ll eventually consume him. it’s a bit like smoking.You start off smoking the cigarette and you finish with the cigarette smoking you…
The myth of mental illness, sick people in a healthy society or normal people trying to make sense of the sick counties? Some psychopaths get military honours. Some former politicians get fortunes for after dinner speeches about military intervention in the Middle East. As for mercenaries…
Paddykool, in an otherwise interesting commentary, your spurious comment “Mental hospitals are full of people like that who are unable by mental makeup to play by any rules”.
“Like that” inference being that they are “bad people”. I expect that you haven’t thought this through or perhaps you have limited experience in dealings with people with mental health issues. Your ignorance is appalling, hurtful, insulting, untrue, unsubstantiated, & unworthy of any human being. That is what Adolf Hitler thought also, are you in the right company.
Bridget, ..That’s not what i meant at all .What I mean is that there are institutions full of murderers who have a mental disorder of some kind .In those kind of high -security hospital prisons are housed all kinds of killers who have no idea that they have done anything beyond what the rest of society would term “normal”.. They are there for our protection and we have had many psychopathic killers her in our midst throughout the length of the Troubles.
.I am not talking about mental hospitals per se, where are housed unfortunate members of the public who have to be attended to because of the harm they do to themselves.. and because their families cannot cope..and yes I do have experience of mental health issues having a wife who has worked in that sector for some forty years plus, so I have heard plenty of first hand stories… and unfortunately there is also a sibling of mine who has suffered from mental health issues since she was a teenager …some near fifty years .I am not looking at life through some rose-tinted prism here ..
Sometimes it is irrelevant whether or not a person perceives themselves to be “good” or “bad”. They might actually be a sociopath with their own skewed way of seeing the world.Doubtless the Yorkshire Ripper saw himself as a perfectly fine and upstanding human being who was simply doing god’s work , as per instructions from on high ….but he was wrong.
The same could be said for our friend Adolph Hitler. He was quite convinced that he was on the right track, Jack . Well …he wasn’t ,but he killed a lot of people working out his own destiny .Was he mentally unstable or just a bad man?Does it matter which description we use? The Yorkshire Ripper lost his particular debate and is in a high security mental hospital. He probably thinks it would be just fine to live in society with everyone else, and kill the odd woman….. but most of us don’t agree.Let’s be plain .there are good people and there are bad people.Some might be bad and insane .Some might simply be bad because that’s how their genetic makeup dictates their actions . Sometimes it doesn’t really matter when what it amounts to is a wild creature like a tiger that can kill you and not have a moral idea in its head.
That’s really why we separate them from the rest of society .It’s more for our benefit than it is for theirs.Abstract concepts such as “good” or “bad” as terms have really very little to do with it.Now take a group like the Shankill butchers …were they bad people or were they somewhat insane …or a little of each?
explain please
Bridget, I don`t think paddykool said anything untoward, the fact is there ARE mental people in mental institutions, people who can not behave `normally` whatever that is, it`s a bit strong comparing him to Hitler! He comes across as a progressive thinker. (Paddy not Adolf…)
AND he keeps bees, ffs….
That’s it Jude…a progressive thinking apiarist…ha ha…
The different attitudes displayed by the two men sums up the whole situation, Catholic/Nationalist victim sees no point in pursuing the killers of his father as he realises the British state will never come clean. Protestant/Unionist victim is eaten up with bitterness and wants to jail Republicans, always careful to condemn `loyalist killers` but not state forces. Forget the whole thing.
Never mind forgiveness. It works only for sainted individuals. To the victor go the spoils is a less moral but more attractive option. So let’s just go on outbreeding the other side till Ireland is one and undivided. Then, when we get to write the history of how it happened, we can write out our own misdeeds out of history, much as Unionist and British do now.
You’re a classy lady Mary jo your new Ireland sounds a lovely place
neill
I think Mary Jo was being ironic. At least I really hope she was.
Gio: can we nominate you official Irony Canary of the site?
Jude
Are you being ironic?
No, no. It’s good to have someone who can be relied to point out irony and you seem to be the man. There are many online who seem irony-proof. So if you alerted them, you’d be like the coal-mine canary (or was it budgie?) except you wouldn’t have to die to give them a heads-up…
Perhaps I was being ironic? ; )
Look, neill, there’s room for only one canary on this blogsite…
Its always interesting to watch Unionist politicians, Protestant/Unionist victims, etc go on a long winded rampage about the IRA, INLA, republican paramilitaries, etc but when asked about Loyalists choose their words very carefully and to move on as fast as possible (usually back to bashing republicans). Then if state collusion is mentioned the same Unionist politician/Protestant/Unionist victim says it was only a “few bad apples”, even when the evidence is growing showing it was systematic and that there must’ve been a mountain of these “bad apples”.
I honestly don’t see how we can deal with our past or if its even possible. As one man who had his mother murdered by the UVF because she was a Catholic said on the Nolan TV show said last year: “Our society is so fractured and poisoned, we just cant solve our problems, we’ll have to leave it to another generation, I’m sorry”. I cant help but agree with him, heres the video of what he said:
Yeah …an Irony Canary….it’s like getting a Knighthood from The Esteemed Blogmeister ….Arise Sir Gio….. Irony Canary Emerita {ICE}…You’ll step out a full foot taller gio!!!
In a sense, Esteemed Blogmeister, one envies you lot in Norneverland where at least you are allowed the freedom, however limited, to ‘imagine different narratives’ (idn) as the contemporary phrase has it, going forward, with relation to the Past.
Down here,alas, in The Free Southern Stateen no such latitude is allowed to its citizenry, aka the vacant lot, in terms of diversity of attitude. Off-centre views are strictly off limits while ‘idn’ remain resolutely hidden.
And this is not entirely due to our being located in a lower latitude to Norneverland,give or take a bloody foreland or ruddy peninsula or two.
Rather is it due to the M-word, a word which struck and still strikes such terror into the normal sapient hominid that he has long ago lapsed into silence in DOBland. The vacuum thus created has been filled with saps. and especially the prize and prize-winning saps.of the purchased press.
The M-word or course, is MYERS. Which while related to is still not to be confused with the dreaded MERS which has recently surfaced in South Korea.
MERS, of course, is an acronym for Middle East Respiratory Syndrome so MYERS could well be described as MERS with Y-fronts on. The latter form of underwear is de rigeur in MYERS where protective overwear in the form of double gloving, impermeable aprons, head masks and medical galoshes are sine qua non for MERS.
Pause for a moment and consider the Y-front: therein lies the crucial difference. Like the Fig Leaf in Victorian Paintings and the stockings on piano legs of that era, the function of the Y-front in this instance is essentially a moral rather than a medical prerogative.
The boffin to whom the credit is most often given for first indentifying the virulent strain of MYERS was that singular man and Doctor of Border, Conor Cruise O’Brain-strain.
(His doctorate from TCD incidentally was in ‘The Moral Superiority of the Victorian Epoch and Its Relevance to the Here and Now, i.e. 19th Century West Britain’).
His first instinctive response, crude though uber-effective, was Section 31 which covered the Mikes of the Shinners with a Fig Leaf.
And so succeeded in a stroke of such jiggery-pokery and / or sullduggery that it even caused diplomatic relationships to be broken between the formerly twinned towns of Strokestown, County Roscommon and Skull, County Cork.With each claiming first dibs on the Freedom of their One Horse Town thingy.
(Regretfully, this is a low-intensity rivalry which continues to simmer even up to and including the present day, g.f.).
That this truly was a stroke / sleight of genius was awesome.
In so far as it (a) deliberately misdiagnosed the disease as originating with the gnats of Nationalism (much as MERS originated with bats); and (b) in that it in fact predated the actual arrival of the first authenticated carrier of the virus to these shores south of the Black Sow’s Dyke by a number of years.
That carrier was none other than the, erm, eponymous Field Marshal Kevin Myers who packed up the troublesome virus in his old kit bag of Kitsonian tricks in his home town in the middle east of England. That would be Leicester. The tonier accent of which seat of cultural enlightenment the Jester KM was careful to pack in his kb along with the virus.
On the scientifically proven basis that Paddy the Peasant was always susceptible to rants of morally superior outrage on the OIrish Q if expressed in the accent toney – even those coming from the Jester of Leicester.
What has made MYERS such an elusive virus to eradicate is that it merged with (gulp) Mad Cow Disease. The precise date and location have both been pinpointed with unerring accuracy by the pointy heads of disease-tracking: at the Lick-spittle Ceremony in Memorial Gardens at Islandbridge on Liffeyside during the Visit.
While Field Marshal Myers bowed with his Second Official Tongue outstretched his lady-in-waiting, Mother Mary McAikenhead modestly wowed in the background.
This merging has inevitably caused the disease to mutate and this has resulted in such gruesome side effects on the grand scale as (gasp) Eejitry.
Indeed, as recently as last Sunday the Aviva Stadium played host to a sight which sent shudders down the spines of even the most hardened observers of global medical calamities (e.g. volunteers of GOAL) when no less than 50,000 Eeejits turned up.
Eeach of these ‘sycophanticc sickos’ (which is alternative medical jargon) were put to the pin of their shiny collars to pay top shiny dollar for the doubtless privilege of witnessing a, erm, goaless gripper between Eireland Nua and the Enema (Auld).
And who showered bouquets of verbal roses down upon their Deus ex Machina himself, the Moses who will lead them back into the Promised Desert just as he had done before, in their time of greatest Harris tweed.
That would be the Knight of the Brown Envelope, a title richly merited on account of his transcendent ability to trouser the affections and adulation of , erm, a notional nation.
To end on a poignant note, it would appear that, sadly the Lad Chalatan (for it is he !) did not quite realise whether he was in Lansdowne or Land’s End.
Or, perhaps, not so poignant. As it it not quite clear whether he ever did.
Jude et al,
A few brief factual points and I will leave others to continue to misrepresent me and IVU if that’s what their own agenda requires them to do:
1. Don’t ever misinterpret anger for passion.
2. I have never felt the pain of family loss as Alan Bracknell has.
3. Don’t seek to misrepresent my position of Alan Bracknell or anyone else. Alan’s father was murdered by terrorists period and I along with IVU fully respect his right to hold the position he does on Justice (as I conveyed in that Programme)
4. Would it surprise those on here to know that Alan and I were reared by families who lived a few miles apart? My family are ‘natives’ of South Armagh and we can trace our lineage back further than most others. Neither I nor Alan need lectured to.
5. IVU’s position is the TRUTH – There was no justification for the use of violence in the furtherance of or defence of a ‘so-called political objective’ in this place.
We don’t simply hold Republicans accountable, we also hold Loyalists accountable and are clear that those security forces attached to this State or the R.O.I State who engaged in acts of criminality departing from their Military and Police codes must all be held accountable. We can’t be any clearer.
Examples to prove this statement:
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/billy-hutchinson-s-actions-were-neither-for-god-nor-ulster-says-victims-champion-1-5954126
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/terror-victims-reclaim-for-god-and-ulster-from-uvf-1-6665417
It is for those of you who post on here and others throughout this Society to get your house in order, stop justifying terrorism and violence as an inevitable consequence of grievances felt (whether real or perceived) That position was and is morally bankrupt.
Because of the position we hold our organisation transcends the political, religious and cultural divides. People on here and others don’t like that because this place works on the basis of – stay to your kind, defend your lot at all costs and screw the other lot. IVU’s ‘lot’ are those who refused to use or support violence, those who would not bring to another’s door that which had been brought to theirs’. They are the heroes and martyrs in this Society not those who donned balaclavas and who shielded their identity such was their lack of conviction they had for the cowardly deeds they were involved in perpetrating.
6. I don’t go in for popularity contests, standing up for what is right matters much more. More appeasement to keep a phony Peace Process going (which has been recklessly overseen by two Nation States) or re-calibrate this Society? I’m glad along with IVU to not be on the side of the ‘pro-Appeasement and re-write lobby.’
Best to you all,
Kenny Donaldson
Kenny – can I first of all commend you for the civility of your posting and your contact with me. I think if we had more of that matters might be looked at in a true spirit of reconciliation. That said,I think maybe you’re being a bit hard on posters here and/or me. My memory of my blog on your appearance on the view with Alan was that you (understandably) seemed more intent on justice for loss while Alan seemed prepared to accept the loss and not seek justice/retribution. Regarding your central point – about rejecting violence – I’m with you on that. As I’ve said before, I’d be too horrified/terrified to think of taking another human being’s life, and I wouldn’t have the courage to risk my own. But if we’re condemning the violence of the Troubles, we should look beyond that to the creation of this state: it was born from an unambiguous threat of violence. And mismanaged to a point that was appalling. But anyway, I’ve said all that before. I guess where we might part ways – I’m only guessing, mind – is that I’d tend to see loss and pain and victims on all sides, whereas I think you might want to first establish how the loss and pain came about. But anyway, thank you again for responding to the blog and I really do hope you’ll read more of them, whether you agree with them or not, and give us your thoughts when you can. As I say, that kind of dialogue is vital.
That’s an excellent posting from Kenny. It is a fact that those of us who have not experienced family loss by violent means have no notion as to how it effects the architecture of the minds of those left bereaved. That violent act can have many repercussions.I ‘d go as far as say that the damage to a bereaved family could be like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder…an illness of the mind and personality.It might never properly heal.
Any of us who have not been sucked into violent acts during the long years of the Troubles here , either as those who suffered or those who carried out the suffering, are the fortunate ones…the lucky ones.It certainly helped if our families advocated non-violence or our education or fears allowed us to step back a step and not allow ourselves to be used by one of the many sides to justify a violent position . We can see even today how youngsters across the UK are radicalised into going to the Middle East to be a part of the ISIS phenomenon. They might come from stable non-violent families but , possibly because of a peer pressure ,they choose to follow a particular path.People talk of them being “brainwashed” at a young and vulnerable age but in the end they are responsible for their own choices too.Many young men decide to join armies at a young impressionable age …just as many young men choose to join religious orders in the same way .They make choices that can alter the kilter of their entire lives.
I have personally known young, very intelligent men who thought it was the right thing to do to go out and fight for Ireland’s freedom from British rule .They were completely of the conviction that all the ills in Ireland and especially the bit governed by Britain spawned from that original position of British conquest of Ireland and their inability to give back the prize they had originally stolen..They did not in any way accept the state as legitimate and could argue why exactly this was the case.They could go to the historical record and rhyme it off chapter and verse.The passing of time …even centuries , made not one jot of difference. They didn’t give a fig what government acts and laws came up with to justify the original theft.As far as they were concerned , the only answer was to wrest Ireland back from the thief who had stolen it .It was really that simple and they could argue that case forever.
I’m sure there were many who involved themselves in the conflict for a variety of reasons.Hatred would have been a factor .I’m talking about the many sides in the conflict here. There was a hatred and fear of “the other” which was manipulated by politicians and churchmen and some of that fanned the flames .There are many who don’t think too deeply about anything and they are useful fools and tools for others intent on violent acts.Are the fools and tools victims? How do we differentiate between those who are victims of the conflict? Are young soldiers who join an army when they are young and impressionable and think that war might be some great adventure….are they useful victims?Many can argue that they are .