Recent figures show there are around 50% more students from a Catholic/nationalist background going into higher education here as there are from a Protestant/unionist background. Why is this?
Well, it depends on who you ask. There are reports in some quarters that students from a Protestant/unionist background feel that Queen’s University and Ulster University are cold houses for them. They speak of an attempted ban on wearing the poppy and hunger strikers’ names on GAA kit at Ulster University in 2013.
Well let’s deal with those two reasons. If there was an attempt to ban the wearing of poppies, then obviously students are currently free to wear the poppy should they choose. A better question might be, are nationalist/republican students free to wear the Easter lily? As to hunger-strikers’ names on GAA kit: surely that’s a pretty clear parallel: unionist students revere the deaths of member of the British armed forces, nationalist/republin students revere the deaths of republican political prisoners. Alternatively, there could be a ban on the display of any political emblems. Equality, anyone?
Another reason for the 50% Catholic/nationalist predominance is almost certainly the under-attainment of pupils from a Protestant/unionist background in primary and secondary schools. There’s also the fact that many Protestant/unionist students choose to study at universities in Scotland or England.
But the main reason is something about which it’s hard to see anything being done. It is that there are fewer Protestant/unionists young people around – certainly in the age range that goes to university or college.
According to the last census figures – in 2011 – in the 18-20 year-old grouping, the figures were 48.5% Catholics and 43.3% Protestants. That’s a gap of over 5%, and that was 5 years ago. The percentages going into higher education have shown a clear Catholic majority since 10 years ago, when there were 32.6% Protestant entrants and 42.9% Catholics. That’s over 10%. The trend appears inexorable.
For unionists, particularly those of the not-an-inch variety, these figures must be deeply unsettling. The state which was established with careful calculation to have an in-built Protestant majority is heading for its centenary with a growing Catholic majority. If I were a unionist, I don’t think I’d be reassured by talk of people ticking a ‘N.Irish’ box in the census form. Time to ditch the not-an-inch stuff, guys. Time to grasp the extended hand before it’s too late.
I have noted a substantial number of young folk from Northern Ireland at university here and many choose to remain post graduation. A young neighbour did medicine at Aberdeen as did her sister; both have settled in Scotland. I flew from Manchester to Belfast on Christmas Eve about 15 years ago and the plane was full of twenty somethings going back for the break. Fifty years ago, my brother-in-law visited Queens for a taster and choose courses. When he was asked in the Law Dept about his secondary school, the guide/lecturer told him, ‘oh, we already have our quota of Catholics’.
What self respecting unionist student would wish to go to a university filled with backward Tyrone people who barely have been taught the rudiments of civilisation?
Ha ha, neill. You know you’ve won the argument when your opponent starts slinging insults (in this case the conceptually-impossible notion of backward Tyrone people…)
My argument is a sound one there coarse braying is deeply upsetting to my ear why cant they remain in strabane or omagh?
I know, neill. Probably something to do with being concerned to bring light where there is darkness, hope where there is despair…Etc
Is there a university in Strabane or Omagh?
“There” , Neil, or “their”? Just saying like…..since we’re talking about educated Catholics like.
I take it you mean “their course breeding”
When I was filling out the UCCA form in the late ’80s I didn’t even think about Queens. You go “away” to university, not up the road. Queen’s would have been like Upper Upper Sixth. I’m trying to remember who went where and I’m pretty sure that of my friends at least, more went to Trinity than to Queens.
If we want to stop the Protestant brain drain from Ireland we’d be better worrying about equal access to all Ireland’s universities. I don’t know anyone who went to UCD.
Btw – Peter Weir didn’t say “too many Catholics”. He said “too few protestants”. It’s not all about you Jude.
” I don’t know anyone who went to UCD.” Now you do…
“If we want to stop the Protestant brain drain from Ireland we’d be better worrying about equal access to all Ireland’s universities. I don’t know anyone who went to UCD.”
Is there not equal access to all of Ireland’s universities BYC?
If parents bring up a child to believe they are British and reject they are Irish, should they really be surprised when they leave Ireland and go live in Britain?
I’m not sure there is Jessica. I think the current points system rewards the breadth of the leaving to the extent that’s it’s hard for A level students to compete it’s back to the earlier point I made on the case for a shared set of exams.
The notoriety of the Holy Land suggests Neill has a point. That was as quiet respectable neighbourhood 50 years ago when I was an undergraduate. Landladies offered accommodation that included breakfast, evening meal and permission to have a weekly bath.
When I returned to Queens as a mature student 10 years, I wondered where the students were. The libraries were almost empty. Even in the student’s union they were thin on the ground. Then one Thursday night I had occasion to be in the university close to midnight and I saw hordes of students emerge from the Holy Land, wild and noisy as any riot.
I didn’t wait, Neill, to ask what counties they hailed from. I fled in a taxi so can say no more about them but I sympathise with your views..
Ah the good old days 50 years ago when young people knew their places. The problem I see in the Holy Lands is one of high rents and unscrupulous landlords. I see plenty of people in the libraries but I’m sure many people take books out of the library and study at home or else use the internet for research. Most students these days are working at least one job to keep themselves in college as well as paying £3000 in fees (and that includes students studying Irish by the Neill) and racking up debts of 1000’s of pounds. As for people young people being loud – that is a fact of life. Sure! Students could do with drinking less but so could the whole of our society.
neill, why don`t you just emigrate? South Africa, no wait, you can`t go there any more can you? Scotland maybe? No, they are going to be independent soon. Ah well, Ireland it is then. Top of the morning to you.
So how is the outreach programme going another Jude?
“So how is the outreach programme going another Jude”
Non existent on the Unionist side Neill.
On the other hand on the nationalist side Sinn Fein has reached out to Unionism by Martin McGuinness meeting Queen Elizabeth II not once, not twice but three times, including attending a state banquet with her. Gerry Adams has met Prince Charles once (Again, so has Martin McGuinness). Sinn Fein agreed to respectfully commemorate Remembrance Day at Stormont and Belfast City Hall and numerous other places. I could go on but we’ll be here all day.
As I’ve pointed out before, Jude, the claustrophobia afflicting unionists in recent times is starkly shown. All that prevents them from demanding repartition to ‘restore’them to the cushion of majority status in their ‘wee country’ is their spurious claims to being democrats, aye, right. This ‘cold house’ complaint is a cry for help from Westminster. Unionist fury as…. Is the default headline of the newsletter and beltel. Well they can suck it up, as this is the future of unionism.
Just wait until it is our ‘wee country’ and see how much they like it then
And there you have it Jessica it won’t be your wee country for a long time if ever.
“And there you have it Jessica it won’t be your wee country for a long time if ever.”
Then you have nothing to worry about neill.
Today’s blog raises a number of questions. What does it mean to be a Catholic? What does it mean to be a Protestant? What is a radical? What is a dissident? Words are important especially as we learn that a 10 year old Muslim boy, living in Lancashire, has come to the attention of the Police as a result of a spelling error. The child wrote that he lived in a “terrorist house” instead of a “terraced house.”
Academic freedom dates back to 1155 and perhaps it is a concept that should underpin debates and discussion about the things we value as we make a Fresh Start on these islands. We may not agree with someone, however, we should value freedom of expression and be prepared to defend a right we often take for granted. Most people have heard of Speakers’ Corner in London. Speakers may address any subject on the clear understanding that there is no immunity from the law. Perhaps we can become a more tolerant population and agree to disagree on a wide range of issues. We tend not to see riot police at Speakers’ Corner. Speed the day when similar conditions prevail in this part of the world.
Yesterday I saw a tweet from the newsletter which said Catholics dominate Protestants at uni, or words to that affect. Dominate. I sent them a tweet asking the paper to justify the word and describe the means by which domination occurs. Of course it was ignored. The ignorant people at that rag wouldn’t reply.
This is either a lazy reporter or a reporter trying to ramp up a reaction from the loyalist unionist MP for knee jerk and outrage.
Jude, another fantastic insight as usual.
The not-an-inch guys just need to look a short distance south of the border to Monaghan where there is a sizable protestant population. There is full integration on all fronts. And respect for each others communities. A leading protestant business man within Monaghan town has often boasted that protestants in monaghan live in one community with their catholic neighbours, in the north – they live in separate communities.
This comment from the Monaghan business man is a huge generalisation, which might apply to some areas, but not all. The two religious communities are certainly not separate in my part of Co. Antrim, perhaps I live in an unrepresentative rural nirvana.
I went to the New University of Ulster (as it then was) in Coleraine in the 70s and, as a Protestant, always felt comfortable. I later went to Queen’s in the 80s and, while there was a more palpable nationalist atmosphere, I certainly never felt “dominated.” The figures are probably skewed because so many Protestants choose to go to Uni in Britain, particularly to Scotland, both my young neighbours went to Dundee, both have returned here to work
In Texas/Mexico when the Hispanic colonists were in control, they dictated what would happen due to their established occupation and superior numbers. When yankee numbers grew physical conflict broke out and eventually the americanos were in charge. At no time did the Mexicans try to offer any settlement. The ruling classes withdrew to their strongholds and ignored the newcomers who eventually swamped them. Still no conciliation just wither on the vine. It happened in south africa and will happen here.
Great.story.jude you.a.Great man.
Spare.My.Blushes.Jim.But.grma….
Neither mind Catholics “dominating” the universities more importantly East and South Belfast certainly dominate the financial assistance provided by Invest NI as the figures for 2011 to 2014 prove:
Belfast East £14,892,191
Belfast North £8,995,453
Belfast South £110,050,078
Belfast West £3,852,260
Do you want Shorts and the Titanic Quarter moved to the Falls Road? South Belfast includes Central Belfast – perhaps the new offices in town could be moved to the Kennedy Centre so you don’t need to get the bus.
We want funds to go where they are needed most BYC and West Belfast is one of the most poverty stricken areas in the UK, especially for children which rank 2nd in the UK for Worst Child Poverty (behind Manchester, I believe) but yet the funds and investment are clearly not being allocated by Invest NI and why not? That’s what we want answers to and who exactly is in charge of Invest NI. Is it a coincidence that those areas with the lowest amount of funds/investment are Catholic? I don’t know but it is strange how this trend has been going on for so long (because this has been reported on yearly for the past couple of years), it wouldn’t be out of place from the Stormont of the 1950’s……
You’re comparing residential bits of town with industrial areas. Invest NI doesn’t provide grants for indigenous business unless it has export potential. The DSD and Belfast City Council invests in residential areas. It’s not like there are Invest NI projects running on the Newtownards Road. What’s the Invest NI spend in North Down?
No need to do that BYC, we had Mackies located right in the centre of West Belfast and they did not employ many Catholics.
The Sirocco Works right beside Short Strand employed virtually no Catholics.
Invest NI just shows the more things change the more things stay the same.
And by the way could you explain why East Belfast should get 4 times the assistance that West Belfast gets?
Because it’s home to Bombardier, Harland & Wolff the Titanic Quarter and all the other business on Queen’s island.
What’s the rejection rate on applications from West Belfast? How many applications have there even been from West Belfast?
I agree with you 100% Belfastdan. The Andersonstown News has been reported on Invest NI’s completely unfair allocation of investment and funding for the past few years and obviously nothing has been done about it since then.
Nationalist politicians, commentators, and activists need to do more to highlight this issue and fix it. The media too have a duty to highlight it.
The very same paper group that as unusual employment figures…
Neill how did these backward Tyrone people who barely have been taught the rudiments of civilisation manage to get to university/…..perhaps it would be more appropriate if you commended their accomplishments and learnt from them …..There is a faction within Unionism ( and not only the TUV ) ,who ,rather than trying to address the under-achievement within their community ,would rather whip the youth into a riotous frenzy ,promoting and idea that Unionist hegemony of bygone days can be restored .This delusory notion ,under the guise of their form of ” Democracy “ignores demographic statistics…..they soon will be the minority! A shared harmonious future is beckoning if they could only welcome equality… but we’re going forward regardless
I think Dubliners make the same snooty remarks about Culchies to be fair.
It’s Karma anyway. If our forefathers had had the foresight to build a decent university in Derry maybe some of these people puking all over the Holylands on 17th March would be doing it up there.
This “chill factor” of Protestants attending “Catholic dominated Universities” as noted in yesterday’s Newsletter by DUP MLA, Peter Weir, yet again feeds into this Unionist “fear” mentality – this mentality that Unionism feeds on. Out of interest, how long has “Catholics” attending University been greater than “Protestants” – Why now to address this issue? Oh, an election up and coming!
We had to deal with the “cultural war” on Unionism, that was that proven a myth. Now it seems we are going to be hearing about the “educational war” against Protestantism / Unionism.
These alleged “Catholic denominated Universities”, once “Protestant dominated Universities” – Who is to blame for this? What other country in the world uses religion as an indicator of who attends University? Every issue in Northern Ireland has to go through the “religious detector.” Yet again the failure of positive leadership within Unionism is to blame for an inability to tackle under achievement that has an impact further down the line on University places.
“What other country in the world uses religion as an indicator of who attends University? Every issue in Northern Ireland has to go through the “religious detector.”
This is what happens when a gang of religious fundamentalists get together and, along with sympathy from the British Government, create a state of their own. They didn’t boast “a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People” for nothing….
“They didn’t boast “a Protestant Parliament for a Protestant People” for nothing….”
Out of interest, do you know the context of that boast?
Good point, MT. Context is important. Like, when you make reference to illegal murder gangs.
“Do you know the context of the boast.”
James Craig, 1934, made an analogy to the “Catholic State of the South” – Apparently a rhetorical response to events in the South of Ireland, said in the heat of the moment .
According to the NI House of Commons records, Craig actually stated “All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State.” This has very often been misquoted and altered, even by many historians.
But, there’s no denying that NI was a Protestant State, thus accommodating the Protestant people of that state, at the expense of Catholics who faced open discrimination in education, employment, housing and so many other walks of life. The artificial setting up of the State ensured this would be the case and Unionist dominance over the minority Catholics would be secure then and in the future.
“Northern Ireland” is not a country but rather a colonial enclave in the north of a country ruled by a foreign power.
*As agreed overwhelmingly by the Irish people in their endorsement of the Good Friday Agreement and amendment to the Irish constitution. Don’t forget that bit.
“*As agreed overwhelmingly by the Irish people in their endorsement of the Good Friday Agreement and amendment to the Irish constitution. Don’t forget that bit.”
That doesn’t make a country, the territorial dispute was resolved by national agreement to allow the disputed territory remain within the UK until a referendum on both sides decided otherwise, in spite a majority of unionism rejecting the agreement.
It also says both Irish and British identities should be considered equal until then making it a spared space. The Irish identity was then rejected by unionism which brings it back into disputed territory. The amendment to articles 2 and 3 are also conditional to the implementation of the GFA, so by failing to honour the agreement, the territorial claim would be reinstated automatically don’t forget BYC.
Jude
“unionist students revere the deaths of member of the British armed forces, nationalist/republican students revere the deaths of republican political prisoners.”
I am shocked to learn that Unionist students are walking about wearing sports shirts with the names of dead soldiers on them.
Clearly provocative.
Very droll, gio…Now read what I wrote.The parallel is in the reverence, not the apparel…(Thinks: am I wasting my time??)
Jude
But surely the problem is not the reverence but the apparel!
A shirt is a shirt is a shirt, gio. It’s what it signals/reveres that counts. Many people here see the British armed forces as guilty of crimes which took the life of their loved ones. So they’re unlikely to warm to poppy-wearing which expresses admiration for said forces. Likewise, I suppose, unionists who see shirts with hunger-strikers’ names. My point is, why is one perfectly acceptable but the other insulting and provocative?
You’re asking why glorifying convicted terrorists isn’t acceptable but remembering war dead is?
Ah yes. It was the IRA wot dun it all. Now that’s context.
Another inane response. It appears that you’re uninterested in genuine engagement.
Life’s too short for banging my head on a brick not-an-inch wall, MT…
“You’re asking why glorifying convicted terrorists isn’t acceptable but remembering war dead is?”
Acceptable to who?
Unionism isn’t acceptable to me full stop.
British rule in Ireland isn’t acceptable to me full stop.
We have had to sick it up all our lives but a day will come when we no longer have to.
Acceptable to society.
“Acceptable to society.”
You may not have noticed, but society here is divided.
The problem with unionism is society has to revolve around them.
Well no more I say.
Yes, divided between vast majority who rejected violent paramilitary gangs and a minority who supported them and who continue to seek to glorify and legitimise them.
But they do walk around with poppies Gio.
When it comes to wearing emblems I adopt Sinn Fein’s policy of: Equality or Neutrality. If Poppies can be worn on University premises than so should Easter Lily’s and vice versa. If Poppies aren’t allowed then nor should Easter Lily’s and vice versa. The same policy should be enforced in regard to flags, both flags or no flags.
Are Easter Lillies banned from QUB then?
Ryan
Lots of people from all parts of the community wear poppies. Some may be war mongering fascists others may just be remembering the terrible waste of life
I am not a mind reader so I don’t assume the worst and take offence when I see someone wearing one.
I don’t wear one myself or an Easter Lily but I wouldn’t be bothered by anyone else doing so.
The GAA shirts with named members of the PIRA seem (if this is true) more in your face and provocative than a flower in ones lapel. Imagine someone wearing a tee shirt with Lenny Murphy’s name on it in a tutorial.
The need to wear stuff like that reeks of insecurity at best and a desire to offend at worst.
So you’d compare the hunger strikers to Lenny Murphy, gio? Mmm.
Well both groups killed people.
Jude
Obviously. I’m suggesting that to unionists the hunger strikers would be as acceptable as loyalist paramilitaries would be to nationalists.
Can you not see that?
Neither are really a good idea for a fashion statement in my view.
I’m not sure that parallel is sound, gio. The hunger-strikers were IRA and INLA people. But they’re revered, not for their membership, but for their sacrifice. Can you not see that?
“Obviously. I’m suggesting that to unionists the hunger strikers would be as acceptable as loyalist paramilitaries would be to nationalists.”
I don’t think I would have any problem with anyone wearing a gusty spence t shirt, I suppose it would be down to the occasion and who would be present.
For example, a park named after gusty in a nationalist area would be wrong, but a park named after him in the tigers bay or shankill I would not have a problem with.
Jude
Surely the point is they would both be considered offensive by those from the other community (and many from their own communities). Wearing something so provocative in a mixed environment can hardly be a good idea can it?
I think you are avoiding my question Jude.
jessica
Do you think a Gusty Spence tee-shirt in Queens at lectures or in communal areas would be good?
What would be the point of doing that other than to stick 2 fingers up to the other lot?
“Do you think a Gusty Spence tee-shirt in Queens at lectures or in communal areas would be good?
What would be the point of doing that other than to stick 2 fingers up to the other lot?”
Try reading what I actually say gio and not desperately trying to back up your agenda of republican vilification.
“I don’t think I would have any problem with anyone wearing a gusty spence t shirt, I suppose it would be down to the occasion and who would be present.”
Anyone who wears anything knowing it would cause offense is wrong but in the right circumstances we have to use common sense and not deny basic frreedoms.
Vilification of either republicans or loyalists is antagonisation and does nothing to mend relations.
Your supporters on this site have deliberately mocked and ridiculed Bobby Sands knowing very well his sacrifice is respected throughout Ireland and indeed the world.
Your promotion of continued division both geographic and social as well as unionist agendas are blatant gio.
jessica
More personal attacks? Pointless.
Any way I am simply trying to find your opinion. If you think a Gusty Spence tee shirt might cause offence in a mixed community then are you agreeing that a hunger striker’s name on a GAA shirt would also cause offence?
Either one would be a bad idea on a university campus would you say?
The rest of your post baffles me.
My supporters??
Why should Bobby Sands not be open to criticism in the same way that leaders of Unionism, FF, FG, the royals, journalists are frequently ridiculed by many including yourself on these pages?
I have no idea how I am promoting division nor why I would want to.
personal attacks????
Wise up gio.
You are promoting a british seperatist argument, I am entitled to say you are a unionist.
If you are so ashamed of it, why promote it at all???
“Any way I am simply trying to find your opinion. If you think a Gusty Spence tee shirt might cause offence in a mixed community then are you agreeing that a hunger striker’s name on a GAA shirt would also cause offence?”
Of course it could and probably would, I certainly wouldn’t wave a tricolour, or even wear a Celtic top in a mixed event where it would cause offense for that very reason.
If someone did however, I would not disparage gusty Spence but the person wearing the t-shirt. Likewise, someone wearing a hunger striker’s name on a GAA shirt at an event where it would cause offense is insulting the hunger strikers memory and is wrong.
As i say, it is the wearer who has done wrong and does not justify the insults to the hunger striker’s name.
“I have no idea how I am promoting division nor why I would want to.”
British rule in Ireland will always only ever be through division.
jessica
In that case you are agreeing with me on the point in Jude’s piece about students wearing such shirts. I am glad we can agree on something.
Now how do I promote a British separatist argument? By not supporting physical force republicanism?
gio, if you and your ilk could only get over the obsession with demonising republicans and blaming them for the conflict, then you would find there is more we agree on than not.
As for physical force republicanism, as far as I can see, no one here is promoting that and it is all in your head.
You do not seem to be capable of moving on. Unionism refuses to move on as it is desperately trying still to regain control.
Let me be straight, unionism will never again have control in Ireland. period.
Separation is on the same road as the berlin wall, it is time for all of the people to accept this and rebuild friendships both across the island and our relationship with Britain.
‘Imagine someone wearing a tee shirt with Lenny Murphy’s name on it….’
Ah yes that oul chestnut. Whilst it would offend victims’ families per se I would hazard a guess and say most nationalists would chuckle at the sight. It would also say a lot about the person wearing it as it would show that they view those who dismember,castrate,disfigure their victims through sheer enjoyment as worthy of their cause. So go ahead and name parks/wear t-shirts after Lenny and the gang. In fact why not set up a museum for them. Make sure ginger Baker’s story is included too. No wait, on second thoughts, it’s best to leave that dog sleeping as you never know where it might lead you to. We wouldn’t want folk to think the British state has sullied the poppy by exposing their involvement in setting up and facilitating jihadi John type unionists.
So you are in favour then wolfie. Depressing but not surprising.
But the poppy and the “Easter lily” aren’t “equal”. The “Easter lily” seeks to legitimise terror gangs and paramilitary groupings.
“But the poppy and the “Easter lily” aren’t “equal”. The “Easter lily” seeks to legitimise terror gangs and paramilitary groupings.”
Terrorism is an official tactic in the British army handbook and they do operate paramilitary groupings, nowhere more so than in Ireland.
The British state legitimised their murder gangs and death squads and are still protecting them, that is why they must go and they will go.
Even if that were true, the poppy doesn’t seek to legitimise or glorify death squads or terrorists.
“Even if that were true, the poppy doesn’t seek to legitimise or glorify death squads or terrorists.”
But you are ok with the British government as recent as today covering up and protecting them?
It wasn’t an attempt to ban the wearing of the poppy but rather a proposal by Queen’s sinn fein to ban the sale of the poppy in the student’s union.
A rather stupid proposal really.
The student’s union voted against the motion.
As the survey doesn’t indicate what percentage of the Catholics belong to a particular sub- genre, Esteemed Blogmeister, it could be that the outcome might not be as bleak as it might appear.
For those, that is, whose sole distinguishing political feature is their Protestantism and all that that entails in an Irish context. The sub-genre referred to above is nothing if not political: that would be the Castle Catholic. Who are, if anything, even more politically Protestant than the Pol. Prods themselves. For they display all the zeal of the uber-convinced convert.
It is they, for example, who are leading the rolling maul against the celebration of the 1916 centenary in the Free Southern Stateen, with grubber kicks in the form of letters to The Unionist Times, with line out throws disguised as disinterested questions from a (gulp) neutral RTE studio audience, and an immediate choke tackle upon anyone misguided enough to even fearfully speak of Easter Week.
They are instantly recognizable, the Castle Catholics, once they open their cake holes. For they speak with a Dort accent in which all the vowels are oval-shaped. This comes from their being taught how to elocute at an early age in their fee-paying schools run by the dosh- posh orders ( Jesuits, Vincentians and, erm, Spiritans) who cater for the, erm, ‘Apostolate of the Rich’.
Rumour has it that these elocution classes for the schoolboys with the crenellated caps involve the attaching of a mouth-sized grated iron mask in the shape of, yes, a portcullis. (For residents of Warbeck Towers these features of a castle are commonplace).
The fee-paying whizz is said to derive from the old Shakespearean line:’fee-fee-fo-fum, I smell the blue blood of an imitation Englishman’.
Still in January, and already the Castle Catholcis are bellyaching and bitching (his and hers) , don’t you know, about how they’ve already had a bellyful of all this (yawn) tiresome GPO tommyrot. This, mind you, is somewhat rich (note the recurrence of the r-word) from a turreted cohort which tsunamied the airwaves south of the Black Sow’s Dyke in the Build. Up.to. the. Rugby. World. Cup.
And who haven’t had the nous to ease up ever since. (Nous: it rhymes with goose in Dort).
One suspects there is also a Belfast equivalent of the Dort accent, possibly, called the Bort. Belonging maybe to the sub-genre known as the Garden Centre Unionist. In which a politican’s name might be distinctively pronounced, to take one at random, say, Bortie Ahern. That would sound like Bortie Ahurn in the Dort.
One has noticed, btw, a certain slenderisation of the ‘o’ from the mouths of our gallant goys from the Ravenhill Road who just love to make a stand; when they are not standing up for the Ulster men they glory in standing shoulder to shoulder for Ireland’s Whatchamaycallit.
-Since rugga turned proe, don’t you knowe, we like to put on a good showe against the foe for the local alikadoe and soe, we have contrived to turn the Kingspan into a regular Alamoe. Might even get the odd kaffir from the ghettoe to make a showe. Need all the dough we can get, not to mention catching the eyes of St. Joe.
Perhaps, this slenderisation came from the practiced handling of the hoe, down at the local garden centre, belowe the sweet brown knowe.
Alas, there does appear to be a certain drop in compulsory attendance across the board since the (whisper it) hockeying Our Goys in Green received at the hands of the Argies in the RWC, but at least there’s always the Falklands. And since Cashin’-in became all the Fashion in the egg-chasing game, it was time for the eminently clubbable stock-broker types to stand shoulder to shoulder. Put their hard heads together in a way that made good economic cents.
Time to inject some, as The Great Shakes put it, ‘Methody into this madness’.
Perkie did not realise the sheer size of this possibly calamitous cashflow prob till The Avuncular One, Tom McGurk, made a surprise appearance of the weekend sports round up slot on the Sean O’Rourke RTE Radio show on Monday. Time to lend an extra ear to see what one might hear.
-Time to think about playing the numbers game. Time to play our home internationals in Croker. It’s a no-brainer: Croke Park: 82,000: Aviva: 50,00.
Ah, yes, the Oirish Oval-balled Hero as a (gulp) Economic Unit. When no other way, look to the G.A.A. /Grab All Association. And of course, as there is never a quid without a pro-quoe, so it is the PATRIOTISM of the GAA at which the finger of the General Kitchener of the IRFU will be pointing.
NO question so of the Aviva undergoing a costly make over such as might accommodate a bogball, if not a stickfighting game. NO quid pro quid here, this is a critical matter of Croke Park standing shoulder to shoulder for Ireland’s Callamity.
For a moment, one almost expected the Avuncular One to casually remark that the Kitchener lad was once a noted midfield general in the blue and white of Ballylongford Gaels.
To conclude; stand shoulder to shoulder and up for Queens: home of the M.O.P.E. s / Most Oppressed Prods Ever.
Did you miss the game for Anto at Kingspan? We converted it to Gaelic for that. Have the IRFU actually refused a similar request for the Aviva or are you just being poetically paranoid?
The answer, BYC, to your question is a simple no and yes.
No, regarding the poetic part. As one who was born with a congenital birth defect which predisposes one to rhyme, this automatically excludes one from being labelled ‘poetic’. Ever since rhyme was labelled a crime against poetry with the dictat : ‘Three strokes and you’re out’.
As it takes just two strokes to make a rhyme this draconian dictat is obviously directed specifically at the Limerick. A verse form which, of course involves a combination of three strokes and two and a form, alas, to which one is personally addicted. As if matters weren’t already bad enough.
But still, this exclusion form the poetic fraternity is a private sorrow one has grown used to and prefers to sing dumb about. Having been advised by distinguished doctors of prosody that a public airing would only exacerbate matters by causing ‘curvature of the whine’.
Yes, regarding the paranoid part. Indeed, one is more than content to be a one-man band eager to toot his flute when it comes to the contrasting political coverage of the three main ball-games in Nama Land by the homogenous hackitariat.
-One is happy to be a chap paranoid
And wrap it all round one with pride.
Nama, in its infinite wisdom recently gave the GAA a kick up the transom when the Dublin County Board put in the highest bid for the Spawell Leisure Centre. This bid was propelled by the most glaring anomaly in Irish sport – the need to build a medium sized stadium (25,000 capacity) to accommodate the most popular and (coincidentally) the most aesthetically pleasing football team in Nama Land. An anomaly not entirely unconnected with the all-inclusive decision of the designers of the Aviva to exclude the possibility of either bogball or stickfighting ever being played at this civilized venue.
If this glick alickado-style kick had been delivered up the handsome transoms of either the IRFU or the FAI, shrill forsooth would have been the howls of anguish to erupt from the homogeneous hackitaiat in the DOBland media monopoly. If the Eddie Cochran Clause, having been invoked, were to fail – ‘I’m gonna take my case to the U-nited Nations’ – then the very least to be demanded would have been a Fast Track Referendum.
But, being the GAH, the coverage was minimalist to the point of being non-existent, apart from some muted snorts of snide satisfaction. (Can’t be seen to openly gloat, you know – that’s alright for the Paddy Stinks and Mickey Mudds of the Insularity).
In fairness, going forward, it is nonetheless imperative to acknowledge that both the IRFU and the FAI combine to contribute massively to the gaiety of the nation. Not least in their head to head, mano a mano, real deal combat to become, erm, THE BEST FANS IN THE WORLD.
Why, this very morning news has been broadcast that the demand from the Free Southern Stateen for tickets for the Soccer Euros have been no less than more than 10 (T-E-N) times the allotted number. To view a team which has been variously described by even their most committed fans in the communication industry as ‘enthusiastic’, ‘never say die’,’ brave’ and (gulp) ‘ game’.
Could this unparalleled demand in WORLD SPORT be, one wonders, in any way a reaction to the challenge laid down last year at the RWC when (whisper it) it was reliably reported that of the 80,000 who attended the game (was it between Samoa and Tonga – anyway, two distant outposts of the former Empah) at Wembley , no less than 79,000 were green-ganseyed grazers in the Fields of Allmyeye?
Truly have the stakes been upped in this ongoing, delightfully adolescent Extravaganza of Eejitry and anyone game to larf till he barfs has indubitably a summer to remember to look forward to.
The coverage currently being devoted to the centenary of the Easter Rising will then seem like a small paragraph buried at the bottom of Page 16.
Thank-you Perkin. I apologise for drawing attention to a condition for which Nature alone is to be blamed
I read that the plan was for a ground the GAA could use for all the northern counties – so that would be Dublin, Louth, Meath, Kildare and Wicklow as joint tenants. Sounds a bit cosy already without including even more fixtures from Rugby and Football.
If they’re looking for a ground share in a 25,000 seater stadium shouldn’t they be talking to Leinster Rugby?
Anyway – the Game for Anto was a charity thing for Motor Neurone Disease, involved the Dublin team and apparently Kingspan has very good catering. The GAA will need to make sure the new Casement Park is up to scratch now that Antrim and Ulster fans have seen how the Rugby people live.
*northern Leinster counties
Jude, as they say down our way, you didn’t miss and hit the wall with that one!
I’ll take that as a compliment, Gerard – grma…
here are a few of the reasons underlying poor working-class protestant performance in education
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/we-will-not-be-the-generation-that-fails-ulster-youre-just-the-generation-that-fails-exams-in-ulster/
I was reading the DUP’s Peter Weir’s article in the Newsletter last night on this topic. Weir, like most of the DUP, does really hold some mysterious and odd beliefs. According to Weir Bi-lingual signs in Universities here are creating a “cold house” for protestants. Yes you read that correctly. I’m not surprised by such odd and stupid statements from DUP members, their founder did, after all, believe Protestants here were the descendants from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel…..
Its common knowledge now days that Protestants are becoming a minority, how small the Protestant community will shrink to we don’t know but its pretty certain in 10-30 years from now Catholics will hold a sizeable majority. Its not simply a case of Catholics having more kids, the Protestant community itself is shrinking at a faster rate than the rate the Catholic community is growing. This is obviously going to impact and change a lot of things, such as the number of Protestants at Universities here (traditionally a lot leave to go to Britain and fewer and fewer are returning).
This is extremely worrying for the Unionist political elite. But it also exposes the deep rooted sectarian logic within Unionism (as if we didn’t already know….). This idea of Protestants, religion based politics, is deeply seeded within Unionism. Anti-Catholicism too has always been at the foundation of Unionism here. Obviously if there is fewer Protestants here then it means fewer votes and seats for political Unionism. Instead of changing, instead of ditching the “not an inch” mentality and the “No Surrender” politics and trying to reach out to Catholics political Unionism is foolishly trying to hold back the nationalist tide.
There is also more than one reason why fewer and fewer protestants are going to University or underachieving here in education. Its common knowledge that for decades in the distant and maybe more recent past Protestants could easily get work in the ship yards, manufacturing, industry, etc There was no need for education and nor was it given much importance in the Protestant community. Catholics, on the other hand, deeply respected education and saw it as important. Due to discrimination Catholics needed all the skills they could get in the hope of finding a job, education/qualifications was one of those skills. This was the culture for the two communities for generations and even lasts to the present day. Hence why Catholics do better in education than Protestants today (though more Catholics still leave school without proper qualifications than Protestants in terms of numbers but not in percentage).
Of course more should be done to tackle educational underachievement in the Protestant community but a more pressing issue, the high unemployment, child poverty, lack of investment, etc in areas such as West Belfast should be a much more pressing issue. The gross inequality in the allocation of investment and funds needs to be tackled, especially from the likes of Invest NI. And yes, I would be saying the same if West Belfast was Protestant majority. I believe in helping the most needy, regardless of religion.
Do we hear an uproar from Unionist politicians about the fact areas like West Belfast ranking 2nd in the UK for Child Poverty? Of course not because West Belfast is a largely Catholic area. Such is the sectarian politics of a lot of Unionists. University Bi-lingual signs allegedly terrifying and sending poor Protestant students running from Queens University is of more importance to them than certain children going to bed hungry, why? because the child happens to be Catholic……and they wonder why Norn Iron is such a failure of a state…….
“Obviously if there is fewer Protestants here then it means fewer votes and seats for political Unionism. Instead of changing, instead of ditching the “not an inch” mentality and the “No Surrender” politics and trying to reach out to Catholics political Unionism is foolishly trying to hold back the nationalist tide. ”
They are a different breed Ryan, they see all the vilification of republicans, even the dissing Irish culture on this site and efforts at so called reaching out which is bordering on shameless sucking up, and don’t say, hold on, these guys are actually willing to share the country and make an effort, instead it floats their superiority boat and they think they still have a chance of maintaining foreign rule in our land.
Unionism is on the road to irrelevance. The people are welcome, but their ideology is not.
There will no long term future for unionism in Ireland if they refuse to compromise on unification while they have an electoral significance.
If you keep pissing on a hand extended in friendship, don’t expect it to stay.
I couldn’t care less either way.
“It’s s common knowledge now days that Protestants are becoming a minority, ”
Er, they already are a minority.
“Er, they already are a minority.”
Protestants always were a minority in Ireland and I suspect always will be so long as it is tainted by unionism.
That is why partition was not and still is not legitimate or democratic.
Glad you are finally grasping the concept MT
“There’s also the fact that many Protestant/unionist students choose to study at universities in Scotland or England.”
One wonders why relatively few Roman Catholic/nationalist students choose to study outside Northern Ireland. Is there a less oitward-looking culture or attitude prevalent within that community?
I think a moment’s thought will give you the answer to that, MT. Would you say unionism is outward-looking? By the way, we had four children. One of them studied in Dublin,the other three in England. Just sayin’, like…
No. I’ve thought about it for a moment and I still wonder what the reason is. If you have some ideas maybe you’ll share them: isn’t that the purpose of a blog?
And I wouldn’t say unionism (or at least “political unionism” as currently manifested in the DUP and most of the UUP) is outward looking. But I do know that many people from the unionist community are.
“One wonders why relatively few Roman Catholic/nationalist students choose to study outside Northern Ireland. Is there a less oitward-looking culture or attitude prevalent within that community?”
They aren’t brought up hating their Irish identity.
The price of bigotry in the unionist community, you will just have to suck it up im afraid.
Eh? Even if your prejudice were baaed on truth, one’s identity doesn’t change according to which university one attends.
“Eh? Even if your prejudice were baaed on truth, one’s identity doesn’t change according to which university one attends.”
I grew up with mixed friends MT. I know most protestants were brought up hating catholics and irishness as so many have told me so. I am sure it works both ways, but certainly not to the same levels.
I am suggesting that perhaps this is backfiring, and perhaps the reason so many more protestants if that is indeed the case, I wasn’t aware, but it could explain why they prefer to go to Britain than study in Ireland.
It would certainly provide the explanation you seek would it not?
There’s a shocking terror-legitimising subtext to this article that attempts to equate illegal deaths squads with the armed forces.
I’m sorry you’re shocked, MT. Also a bit incredulous. Do you believe that these ‘illegal death squads’ (not to be confused with the legal ones) sprang out of nowhere, and 30 years later suddenly decided to stop being illegal deaths squads? I find that a shockingly blinkered view of the conflict.
I’m sorry you’re shocked, MT. Also a bit incredulous. Do you believe that these ‘illegal death squads’ (not to be confused with the legal ones) sprang out of nowhere, and 30 years later suddenly decided to stop being illegal deaths squads? I find that a shockingly blinkered view of the conflict.
Eh? No I don’t think they sprang out of nowhere and 30 years later suddenly decided to stop beingillegal death squads.
Strange question.
I cant help but get the impression MT that your logic is:
illegal death squads = Not OK
legal death squads = OK.
Why does it matter if something is “legal” anyway? Unionists use this term “legal” as if because the British Army was “legal” that meant whatever they did or their existence was right and moral. Slavery was once “legal”, does that mean it was right? Obviously not. Being homosexual was once “illegal” does that mean that was wrong? of course not, homosexuals should have the same rights as the rest of us. Once upon a time here in Ireland Catholicism was “illegal”, of course making Catholicism illegal was wrong too. Don’t confuse legality with morality.
Stephen Nolan was hosting a show a few months back where the topic was: Should the PIRA be made a legal organisation? Why not? The UDA was legal for many years, even while they were carrying out sectarian murder under a different name.
I’m sure you would be very accepting of the IRA MT if the law was changed, they would be “legal”, after all…..
You don’t understand the difference between something being legal or illegal?
OK.
I can see you’re happier sloganising than discussing, MT. That’s a pity.
Strange response to a post that didn’t involve sloganising, and especially given some of your own posts on this very thread, which have avoided addressing the point, including your recent one about the context of Craigavon’s Protestant Parliament boast.
“You don’t understand the difference between something being legal or illegal?”
Not when it comes to killing someone, no.
That is on your conscience for everyone and cannot be removed by not going to court.
Ryan – was thinking of the very same examples you put forward. Given also the difficulty victims have in getting past the “national security” barrier when they want to learn what exactly happened to their loved ones, it seems “legality” is just and exercise in power. Justice is something very different
“You don’t understand the difference between something being legal or illegal?
OK.”
Your obviously not the sharpest tool in the shed MT. Your equating legality with morality, as if to say if something is legal then it must be moral (British Army, etc), whereas if something is illegal (IRA, etc) then it must be immoral. Now I have given you examples of things that were legal, such as slavery, which were clearly immoral to anyone with a half decent moral compass.
Obviously I know the difference between what’s legal or illegal but what’s your point? Anyone can create a law, any group of people, as has been repeatedly seen in History, can create unjust and terrible laws, making things like Slavery legal but homosexuality, Catholicism, etc illegal.
Saying something is legal or illegal doesn’t mean anything when it comes to right or wrong and basic morality. Hiding behind a countries Law doesn’t mean your argument is right or someone else’s argument is wrong.
Of course legality and morality aren’t the same thing. That goes without saying.
But the law is based on morality. And in this case society has decided that it is morally wrong for organisations to exist whose purpose is to achieve their own political aims through violence rather than politics. Hence they have been proscribed in law.
Seeking to legitimise these proscribed organisations is morally wrong and is not equivalent to remembering war dead.
Would that apply to all the former colonies, MT?
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. It depends on which former colony. Some have developed reasonably sophisticated democratic and legal structures, in which case, probably yes. Others are dictatorships or in states of near anarchy, in which case, probably no.
“And in this case society has decided that it is morally wrong for organisations to exist whose purpose is to achieve their own political aims through violence rather than politics. Hence they have been proscribed in law.”
The Ulster unionist party and indeed unionism in Ireland achieved its political aims through violence rather than politics and indeed still threatens violence when unionism doesn’t get its way.
“Time to grasp the extended hand before it’s too late?”
Too late for what exactly? That sounds very sinister.
If it’s anything like the hand gestures that the respondents to these articles offer, then no wonder it’s not reciprocated. All that’s ever shown or written about is a seething resentment for all things unionist. A bitter diatribe of Unionist this and Protestant that. If these comments are an indicator of what a UI would look like, then no wonder Carson and Craig decided 6 into 26 wouldn’t go.
Fair comment, KK. Why not engage with those making these statements and point out the flaws in their argument?
“Too late for what exactly? That sounds very sinister. ”
It is already too late in my opinion.
Ach Jessica. What would cheer you up? I think you’re too sensitive to the blowhards and you’re missing the general drift to civility here.
What specific measures could unionists (or the executive as a whole) take that would renew your faith in the agreement?
“What specific measures could unionists (or the executive as a whole) take that would renew your faith in the agreement?”
Good question BYC, I would ask 2 things.
1
Equality of the Irish identity,
i.e.
allowing the Irish language act be passed as a show of respect that it is the native language of Ireland including the 6 counties and deserves the small cost it would take to maintain it.
accepting the tricolour is the national flag representing an overall majority of the people of northern Ireland if not yet an electoral majority and allowing it to fly along side the union flag to show both communities are equal and can respect one another.
2
Do what is in the best interests of all of the people and not what is best for the union.
i.e.
Working together with an open mind to see how we can make the most of what we have got, to grow our economy and give the best future for our people.
This would have to include looking at all options including unification and removing preconditions.
Other than that I have no pre conditions.
Sorry – typo should read “legality” is just an exercise in power.