Over the last few days, the Minister for Education John O’Dowd has been hauled over the coals. The charge? That he didn’t follow the English examination boards and change the grading of GCSEs from A* -E to 9-1. This, we’re told, will put students here at a disadvantage – they’ll have to follow the north’s GCSE grading system – A*-E – and so will be out of step with English exam boards. Oh, and he’s stuck to A*-E because he is a Shinner and detests all things English.
It’s a bit hard to make that last one stick. One of the major educational changes in Britain in the last seventy years has been the creation of comprehensive education and abandonment of the Eleven Plus. You’ll still hear yelps of indignation from Tory ranks about this movement but the British people accept that it while it may not be perfect, the comprehensive school system is a damn sight better than the draconian Eleven Plus. Instead of following the British lead, those in charge here have clung on for dear life. When Martin McGuinness and then Caitriona Ruane tried to kick into oblivion the iniquitous Eleven Plus, they were pilloried. None of the objectors mentioned that by keeping it, children here would be out of step with their counter-parts across the water.
The one element that I haven’t heard discussed in the GCSE debate is, which system is better? It’s all been a matter of being in step or out of step. The answer I believe is simple. The 9-1 system attempts to assess differences that, in some subjects at least, are invisible to the naked eye. When I was sitting the equivalent of the GCSE, our marks came in percentages – 100-1, in other words. I defy any body of fair-minded people, however expert they may be, to detect the difference between an exam answer in English worth 56% and an exam answer in English worth 57%. The same on a lesser scale applies to 9-1. So why is it being adopted in England? To make it easier (and safer) for universities and bosses to allocate a place or a job to X but not to Y. No messy having to justify yourself in terms of interview or such-like. Simply point to the scores. A* -E, of course, does the same thing, but it concedes that you can’t distinguish beyond a number of broader bands. That’s why O’Dowd’s decision is a sensible one.
If there’s to be discussion of the marking system here or elsewhere, is it too much to hope it will focus on what is fairer rather than more in step with England? Or better still, which marking system results in a more fulfilling educational experience for all the children.
The GFA acknowledges there separate allegiances in northern Ireland and while it has agreed to maintain within the jurisdiction of the UK until such time as a majority wish otherwise, it does legitimise that aspiration if met through exclusively peaceful means.
After a suggestion made by neill where he suggested we should pay our taxes to the southern state in return for exclusion from the NHS and UK welfare.
I was wonder could a similar offer be made over education?
Could the all island catholic church who owns just about all of the property catholic maintained schools are built upon on this island, be part of an all island education system and leave the UK system to be run as unionists see fit?
Unionism and nationalism will never agree on anything so why waste time arguing and just accept that is the reality and provide more choice to suit everyone rather than forced integration which leads to deeper disagreement?
Perhaps the best solution is this one actually proposed by a unionist so hardly something they can react negatively to.
I would be very happy that we make no contribution to the Catholic maintained sector simply because there is massive duplication when none is needed.If Catholic parents want to send their kids to faith based schools thats perfectly fine with me but they should pay the full costs themselves in exactly the same way as Irish or Independent Protestant schools should be self funded.
So do parents of Catholic schools/Protestant schools/Irish-medium schools not pay taxes, neill?
So if I sent my kids to a public school should I expect the state to cover it?
I figure the state should make the same provision for all children. If a school chooses to charge fees of £12,000 a year, they mustn’t expect the state to cover all of that. So do Catholic/Protestant schools or Irish-medium schools cost the state more than state (actually Protestant for the most part) schools?
“So if I sent my kids to a public school should I expect the state to cover it?”
That would be up to you to discuss with your own state. If we were to be paying taxes to Dublin, it would be none of our business, No UK money would be going towards any catholic school education and therefore none of your business.
“I would be very happy that we make no contribution to the Catholic maintained sector simply because there is massive duplication when none is needed.If Catholic parents want to send their kids to faith based schools thats perfectly fine with me but they should pay the full costs themselves in exactly the same way as Irish or Independent Protestant schools should be self funded.”
I agree completely neill, but do you therefore also accept that would require a separation of taxes, as you suggested already and whatever differences come out of that so the catholic maintained schools could receive the same contribution that comes from my own earnings towards education.
No they receive nothing as a faith based schooling system they should receive a penny.
sorry shouldn’t receive a penny was what I meant to say
“No they receive nothing as a faith based schooling system they should receive a penny.”
I accept that they would not receive a penny from the UK, but likewise it would be only fair that out taxes which go towards school finding are paid to the appropriate state who would pick up the tab. It was after all your suggestion.
I’ve wondered about that myself. Sinn Fein’s been running our education department since the GFA yet don’t seem to have made any proposals for a North-South secondary school curriculum. You’d think that would be a priority as it would offer greater choice on this island for the all our secondary school leavers.
And if Sinn Fein prefer not to work with their southern counterparts why don’t CCMS schools just offer the leaving certificate their students?
Is this one unionists fault as well?
I agree , BYC. I think there should be a careful analysis of both systems, the best of both adopted both sides of the border. But of course unionists would yell blue murder, even if it was in their children’s interests.
They might.
Then again, Garett Fitzgerald said the Irish system was based on the Scottish Highers.
Maybe we could persuade people that we were aligning better with the Scots as well as the southern neighbours,
Good point, BYC. That might soften it. I still don’t think unionism would touch it with a barge-pole. Certainly not their politicians
“I agree , BYC. I think there should be a careful analysis of both systems, the best of both adopted both sides of the border. But of course unionists would yell blue murder, even if it was in their children’s interests.”
Should we be assuming this though Jude?
Has it been put out there in an official capacity?
And if not, why not?
I’ll bet you £100, Jessica, that neither the DUP nor the UUP – not to mention TUV -would engage in what would be a commendable exercise. Sorry indeed to be so negative – I’d be 100% in favour of such a move – but I think I know unionist parties here.
“I’ll bet you £100, Jessica, that neither the DUP nor the UUP – not to mention TUV -would engage in what would be a commendable exercise. Sorry indeed to be so negative – I’d be 100% in favour of such a move – but I think I know unionist parties here.”
I would be certain that would be the case, but we have to put all reasonable options out there do we not?
Perhaps such decisions should not be in the hands of our elected politicians if they are not capable of distancing from tribal positions.
Perhaps if the people see time after time proposals pushed aside for selfish reasons, eventually the community will step up and demand it be taken out of their hands altogether and put forward representatives who do not have the baggage of political parties.
I’m not sure it should be taken out of politicians’ hands, Jessica, but I do think it deserves to be put out there. It’s always bemused me: how is it that one system is deemed the best for a child living in, say, S Fermanagh, and another deemed the best for a child living two miles across the border? As you say, not to look at the comparative possibilities seems deliberately blinkered. Why don’t you do a blog on it? Sometimes Nolan or Talkback pick up on blogs from this site…
“Why don’t you do a blog on it? ”
A bit wary of it after the last one to be honest Jude.
Would love to hear Johns opinion on it if you have his ear though. He is a good man.
I think you credit me with moving in higher circles than I do, jessica…
Jude
Higher? What form of republicanism is this?
“And if Sinn Fein prefer not to work with their southern counterparts why don’t CCMS schools just offer the leaving certificate their students?
Is this one unionists fault as well?”
Absolutely not BYC.
Why it has not been suggested is a perfectly reasonable question and one I would also like to hear the answer to.
Scots must really hate the english given their education system…
The Minister for Education is in command of his brief. It is evident that he hates oppression and inequality. He is aware that political ideology to date has influenced a system of education which fosters and maintains privilege and inequality. He also wants to make positive changes to the current system at a time when he is confronted with financial constraints. The Minister and his party remain committed to a goal of achieving economic, social and cultural equality. The most recent evidence available on the concentration of wealth establishes what we already know, more and more wealth is being concentrated in fewer hands. (A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality, (Stone et al October 2015.) The provision of education is not a neutral or apolitical activity. (Torres 1998)
Jimmy Reid, the Scottish trade unionist when appointed rector of Glasgow University stated,
“The rat race is for rats…”
Reid challenged political realities, realities that are as relevant today as they were when he was striving to promote a right to education and a right to work. Today, Tory ministers constantly ask why the north of Ireland should be treated differently from Scotland, England or Wales. In the first instance, many of the ministers come from privileged backgrounds and did not leave university in debt. An objective analysis of indicators of deprivation for this part of the world combined with 30 years of sectarian conflict is proof, if proof were needed that education provision and other public services should to be funded on a financial basis comparable to the funding that remains available for the arms industry. It would appear that there are no financial constraints in that profitable sphere of activity.
“education provision and other public services should to be funded on a financial basis comparable to the funding that remains available for the arms industry”
So you want to reduce the UK education budget from the current £98Bn to the same level as the defence budget at £38Bn? Or maybe you want to reduce it further as a good bit of the defence budget is for payrolls and facilities and not just “arms”.
Britain’s defence budget is 61.8 Bn and counting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
What currency was my number in and what was yours in?
“Education Provision And Other Public Services should to be funded on a financial basis comparable to the Funding that remains available for the Arms Industry”
Good.story.jude.
And.Good.Morning.Jim.
their all just making it up as they stumble along time to close it down its not working.
It was indeed an education, Esteemed Blogmeister, to hear the grading systems which prevail in the schools south of the Black Sow’s Dyke being applied over the weekend to the political party of which John O’Dowd, Minister for Education in Norneverland, is a member.
Two markers will suffice.
First was a political correspondent/ examiner of The Unionist Times who, in reply to a question on the flegship programme of RTE, Yawning Ireland, replied, uncontested, that the Fianna Failures would under no circumstances, whatsoever, ‘coalesce with Sinn Fein on either political or moral grounds’.
Moral, mind. Sniffffff-eeeee, or what?
So, not only do the mortal Shinners get to stand in the corner at the back of the classroom with their faces to the wall and a conical hat with a D on their heads during the politics class but also, alas, the religion class as well. Or, at least, while the latter class is still part of the grrrrrriculum.
The other political examiner was, if anything, even sniffier. And effortlessly so, for his continuous assessment, as it were, was expressed in an awfulla, awfulla accent such as makes Queen Elizardbeth sheself sound like a fishwife from Billingsgate.
That would have been Senator Shane de Rossa, in person.
Queried, as to whether his – party? loose alliance? mixum gatherum? – would coalesce with the immoral Shinners, the modest spokesman answered as a Me Shaner, sans whip:
-It’s a question of whether you believe them or not.
-Do you trust them?
Reaching for the conical cap with the big D on it, he whinnied in reply:
-Personally, I don’t.
Before affixing the pointy cap where it belonged.
Mind you, this was not a totally predictable answer, for another Irish-born old boy of Rugby School, Warwickshire, England not only trusted said immoralists but did so even unto the extent of joining the (gulp) I.R. A. which of course, is the A. B.C. of terrorism. That would have been Francis Stuart. He was the same novelist who once naughtily got the poetic bloomers of Mrs. C. Craze O’Brain in a frenzied political twist, on the august premises of the Aos Dana/ Arts Council no less.
Old boys of Rugby School are known as Old Rugbeians, which is long for Old Beans.
Senator de Rossa (yes, a relation, and an extremely close one, politically speaking) who hails from good stock-broking stock, more au fait with hedge funds than wet ditches, was, seemingly, named for/ after the most pivotal role in the stellar career of Alan Ladd: Shane.
Alan, of course, was a low-sized lad who needed this shortcoming disguised. Thus, in another horse opera, a six-inch hole was dug for his co-star to stand in, while the excavated dirt was used to form a mound for the Ladd to stand upon, thereby overcoming the one-foot disparity in height.
No such dirt, excavated or otherwise, is required to build the standing of the only Old Bean in Seanad Eireann, a chamber not lacking in wannabe Old Beans, mind. Senator de Rossa’s jodhphur-shaped vowels are all he is required to offer for to impress the Gullibility of the Free Southern Stateen as he travels .
Thus, while speaking from an admittedly strong 1 % for his mixum-gatherum-ups in the recent polls this powerful platform was not necessary for Senator Shane de Rossa to, erm, pontificate. His Anglo-Irish birthright, as a hockey player on the ditch (hockey being Protestant hurling in the register of recognized sports) already guarantees him that, as it did to distinguished others before him (see Mr. C. Craze O’Brain).
E for Elocution.
“Alan, of course, was a low-sized lad who needed this shortcoming disguised. Thus, in another horse opera, a six-inch hole was dug for his co-star to stand in, while the excavated dirt was used to form a mound for the Ladd to stand upon, thereby overcoming the one-foot disparity in height.” – What oft was thought but ne’er so well expressed” – thank you, Perkin. Aris.
“Jodhphur shaped vowels”. Immortal!
I hope you’re not mixing up yer wee man Ladd’s celluloid conquests.
The one to which you refer was ‘Boy on a dolphin’ filmed in the Bay of Naples, almost opposite his leading lady Sophia Loren.
Wee lad that Ladd was, he was no match for the statuesque Sophia, and for a love scene on the beach they actually dug a hole in the sand for her to stand in so they could be nose-to-nose.
Not very romantic for the gorgeous Sophia, but I’m sure it was just business for her.
You’re right, billy.Appoint a governor General and run this place like the other colonies. It couldn,t be any worse and when the numbers are right we,ll vote to leave.
yep.half a dozen who know goverment could run it after all its only a glorified council.your right about it being a shambles the half that vote are only encouraging them.
“yep.half a dozen who know goverment could run it after all its only a glorified council.your right about it being a shambles the half that vote are only encouraging them.”
The more I read this blog billy, the more I think you have more sense than any us.
I think Harry has put me off ever voting in a british election ever again.
I figure the state should make the same provision for all children. If a school chooses to charge fees of £12,000 a year, they mustn’t expect the state to cover all of that. So do Catholic/Protestant schools or Irish-medium schools cost the state more than state (actually Protestant for the most part) schools?
The point I am trying to make is a simple point if parents wish to send their kids to faith based schools that’s ok but why should the state pay for it?
Yes, neill, and I’m saying yes the state should. Its investment in education should be at the same level for each child…
But is it Jude the resources that are put into a small school are more than a larger school simply down down to economies of size.
You have a point, neill. But I understood that when enrolment is below a particular level, the plug is pulled or the school doesn’t get funded.
One thing to point out on the overly-granular scoring of the new English system Jude. The Tories are proposing 9 grades. The leaving certificate has 11 grades (A1 – D3) in 5% increments from 45% – 100%.
Thanks for that, BYC. I’ve been part of A Level English marking panels. Believe me, the idea of objective assessment is a myth…
J O’D seems a congenial well meaning guy. But I began to have reservations about his suitability for the education portfolio when he sprinkled his past historics with ‘I seen’ and ‘I done’. My worst fears were confirmed on hearing him on ‘Nolan’ once refer to the 26th of December as Baxin’ day; no more odious manifestation of English English than that expression exists or is even conceivable.
I too cringe a bit when I hear or read people who’re not up to speed with tenses and punctuation. But I know that such things are just the table manners of language: the content of what you say and its truth should be the focus.
‘The table manners of language’: a daarlin’ phrase, Esteemed Blogmeister, a daaaalin’ phrase.
Y’all together now / Le y’cheile anois:
-Uh, would you please pass the biscuits?
Uh, would you pass the biscuits, please?
Same thing every Sunday, since I can’t remember when
Kinfolks all around the table, and etiquette at tuther end.
That is a fair point sadly many people who hold ministerial rank do not seem to be able to string a single lucid sentence together which in itself is damning.
Brian, I was lamenting the standard of English spelling and grammar in an article on education, and was gratified that I am not the only pedant.
But remind me, how did you spell jodhpur in your previous post?
The best interests of the child’s education should come first before attempting to score cheap points which some Unionists are trying to do. If John O’Dowd passed wind the wrong way some Unionists would use it to find a way to accuse him of being anti-British or anti-English or something else. The same goes for other Sinn Fein or SDLP ministers, they will never be good enough in some peoples eyes.
Just because England does something different doesn’t mean we should do the same. England and this corner of Ireland are very different places (don’t we know it….) So what maybe works and is suitable for England doesn’t mean it will work here.
I’m no teacher but I think the current system (grade system with A’s, B’s, C’s, etc) is best. Using this new system of 1, 2, 3, etc comes across as unnecessary. As Jude pointed out its going to be difficult to point out why, say, one essay deserves a No. 8 while another deserves a No.7. What’s the margin of difference between the two grade numbers? Whereas if an essay is given an A grade and another a B grade, its usually pretty easy to see the difference. I take night classes at the local college over the past 7 years and when it comes to exam grades you can see why I sometimes got a B or a C and the times when I got an A. The standard of work/answers were very different. When it comes to these new grades of 1-9, I’m sure 2 pieces of exam work, one getting a grade 9 and one getting a grade 8 wont exactly be different….except maybe the grade 8 work missing a few full stops…..
Are we not a little too tied up with promoting academia, certainly there is a place for it, for children who can do it but, as pointed out by one man on the wireless yesterday, and previously myself, we need far more sparks, carpenters, plumbers, hairdressers, cooks, plasterers and brickies than sociology graduates or other pointless Degrees.
The debate on grading cannot be difficult for, even the most ardent, unionist to overcome. The education system in the six counties is far superior to that in Britain (my kid’s both did their PGCE’s there) and the Free State.
Let us acknowledge this in unity, let us build on the benefit of a better system and, in my own opinion, let us reintroduce 11+ for entry to good schools, offering excellent vocational education as well as academic.
Hopefully the big lad from Lurgan reads this blog.