It is that bit about a First Minister representing everyone in Norneverland where the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) in Ireland , constantly falls down and it’s where Arlene Foster , its current new leader,has already stumbled. If you represent every one of the people of the state , you have to do just that little thing.
You have to actually represent each and every single beating heart in a magnanimous way. No pettiness should intrude and you should behave in a presidential sort of way. It’s one of the reasons why the place (Norneverland)will never really work properly. If you cannot get your head around that simple concept, the place will never have stability or begin to grow up and become mature.There have been many gaffes in the past and this one about refusing to acknowlege the part that the 1916 Rising , about to be commemorated, had to play in what is our present state , is only the latest short-sighted blunder. Many will argue that the DUP can do nothing else for fear of losing their vote, but this has more to do with fair representation of everyone and not just those who vote for you. It is part and parcel of the poisonous chalice of leadership. Leaders have to be braver than anyone else.
It’s their job.
We all know that there are basically two tribes living here with differing viewpoints and I suppose it is also why we have a joint leadership position, although because of certain sensitivities we have a nominal “First Minister” as opposed to a unique leadership status for an obviously divided community.Many argue that the whole leadership role should be retitled as “Joint First Minister” but that will probably not happen until a nationalist party has a slightly greater percentage of the vote . When that happens ,and it appears to be moving in that general direction at a fairly steady pace, I would imagine that unionism would then enjoy that sense of equality in leadership. They’d be the first out to promote a “Joint Leadership” role in those circumstances.
Of course it’s not just unionism who find it difficult to look reality in the eye, the current Republic of Ireland government would rather forget just exactly how we got to this position anyway ; that very messy bit between 1912 and the 1920’s which included a rebellion against British rule in Ireland and the slaughterfest of the first real no-holds barred industrial war in Europe which left millions of ordinary men and women dead. They want to forget their very own origin story too and the naty bit about the Civil War.
I have said it before …. For a United Ireland to really work , it has to mean that everyone feels comfortable being Irish “citizens”, together . There can be no notion of anyone finally winning the game triumphantly and by doing so , knocking our neighbours noses out of joint .That is a recipe for more squabbles in future times. After all unionism were not slow to rebel at the British Crown in the past. What we have already essentially agreed ,is that a united Ireland will not come by force of arms, which has left the dissident republicans still carping for some sort of “victory”. They want to “win” on quite different terms.They seem to want the puffery of a final kill. It leaves unionism variously scratching its collective heads, some believing that things will now never change forevermore within their “country” and that they’ve “won”…. or believing that a great trick has somehow been played on them which means they too can never take up arms, should a decision be made Ireland -wide , to unite the entire country again. Some even believe that the unstable state of Norneverland is in fact a uniquely new country within the Irish landmass.They still don’t appear to realise that it will always, at best ,be an artificial construct, a state, carved as it is, out of the nine county ancient Province of Ulster as a bulwark against the green tinge of the south.
That means it is up to others who think differently and in an entirely new way , such as republicans, nationalists ,rationalists or whoever and whatever , to persuade everyone who votes ,that a “unified” Ireland is a better state of affairs for everyone …unionists included. …better than the present situation. They will all {and that includes many “nationalists” such as SDLP voters who are essentially happy with the current status quo} have to be persuaded that they will gain something economically, emotionally and culturally that they hadn’t got before. They need to be convinced that it will be a better life .That also means convincing all our southern counterparts who have essentially abandoned us up here in the mythical Norneverland this past hundred years. …
Yes we’ve been unthought of and abandoned except when bombs were exploding and bullets were flying….the general public in the Republic of Ireland could hardly care less.Will they care any more when we are not making the same kind of noise?
“Unionism” is a strange affair essentially. It is built on many fears.It used to be constructed around the fear that its inherent protestanism would be compromised by Catholicism in a green hued Ireland, but in reality, that world no longer exists….just as protestants are protesting about all the wrong things.That world hardly even exists for many, many nationalists who were equally turned-off by religious power and censorship. In 1969, on one all- but- forgotten Civil Rights march which I attended, we walked from Belfast to Dublin. At the border customs post, two books were presented which had been condemned by the Roman Catholic Church, “The Ginger Man” by J.P. Dunleavy and Edna O’Brien’s “The Girl With Green Eyes”, the first of which was then banned in the Republic of Ireland at the time .This stunt was seen as a humorous challenge to that state’s arcane and religiously hidebound censorship laws. Not everyone was on the same page , even then, you see. It may not have been appreciated by some on the more conservative rump of the Civil Rights movement, either.
For some in Norneverland there is also an attachment to the idea of a Royal Family and a monarchy , but surely that must also be old hat for many , even of of a “unionist” mindset, hiding in the shadows . Surely all “unionists” cannot feel a subservience to such an outmoded tradition or even an adherence to what amounts to a very average and bland and somewhat gawky family ,who live in artificially elevated circumstances, better-off than 99% of the world’s population…and certainly in better circumstances than the population of the UK, themselves.
This family is really only extraordinary in that very respect.Not one of the royal family, although they maintain a social tradition which encompassed a thousand years of much murder ,brutality thievery and historical chicanery { and that was only amongst themselves}, has added to the sum total of our human knowledge and yet many are prepared to bow their knee and accept trinkets and awards from them ,as if complicit in a murderous historical lie.. That ,in itself ,defies all current logical thought and wisdom. It makes people appear foolish and uneducated…and possibly , many are. All I can imagine is that hiding among the 50% of non -voters must be all of those who have more open -minded beliefs and come to that … a greater belief in themselves and their own worth.It has to be said that the Royal Family are finally making some concessions to the the modern world and are belatedly attempting to be seen as more “ordinary” than their huge aquired wealth has dictated they should be . Members of the family are now marrying into the common gene -pool as opposed to seeking out other princes and princesses to wed. The Queen has alsoattempted to apologise for past wrongs throughout the world and specifically in Ireland.This is much more than many of her ardent followers in Norneverland have yet managed.
Among those are surely some future “citizens” of a “New Irish Republic” rather than “subjects ” of an outmoded monarchy. These are the people we need to encourage to think for themselves …and ourselves…., but we also need to present more logical and thoughful arguments to explain our aspirations more fully..
Time also for Unionists to convince people of the benefits of Union. https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/01/03/unionists-argue-in-circles/
Yes, ben …we all need to talk about this in some detail and stop shouting at each other, eh?
Arlene seems to be being unnecessarily steadfast in her refusal to participate in any 2016 events. I’m sure she could have got Paul Bew to help out on some historically valid and appropriately diplomatic presentation of the unionist position. Something about looking forward not back, noting Ireland’s increasing liberalism and internationalism and an undertaking to be the best of neighbours as Carson cautioned. Or even a restatement of what Craig actually said (in the speech where he didn’t say a Protestant State for a Protestant People even though some republicans seem to wish he had) about it being interesting to compare the success of the two states and maybe a cheeky remark about seeing if the next 100 years of the Northern Irish state with an agreed foundation can do better than the last – that sort of stuff. She’s so pounding petty and unimaginative for now but maybe she feels the need to establish credential and the timings just unfortunate.
This reduction of the unionism to monarchism and religious prejudice isn’t going to move the conversation on very far. Can you not even try to take unionists at their word when they say they want to maintain the rights of a citizen of the U.K? Have million of them signed up to that in 1912 and maybe they write what they meant. That now includes equal access with other UK citizens to the best of Europe’s universities, pride in institutions like the BBC, the RNLI (ok you’ve got this), the Commonwealth (whose games northern Irish athletes get to participate in and Irish athletes don’t) the NHS, the National Trust, British secularism, and yes, even Britain’s armed services. Just feeling part of a unit with 64 million other people in a big wide world and having a world city like London as your capital appeals to some. Are the United Irish alternatives really that much better?
I think you make many fine points Byc and i can see the attraction of being part of the british mindset, but we are not on equal terms with the Scots or the Welsh on this one.What we have here is a community which is practically evenly divided in aspirations…a community forever pulling against itself .It’s a fact that no matter how we like to feel about it , London is not our capital even though many of us have lived there and have (as i have ) children living there. in fact I have met, in the past ,many Londoners who barely know we exist.or what our connection is to them.They are simply not that interested in us so in some respects we seem to have no self-respect in clinging on to london’s coattails when the impression is that they’d prefer to unload us at the first easy opportunity .That’s not to say that we can’t as individuals have a love for aspects of British culture as much as we can for our own Irish culture .There is ahell of a lot of literature, art, film-making and music that i love about .british culture. I just think that many unionists would rather cherry-pick the bits that don’t offend them too much and disregard the awkward bits like the secular stuff which gives them so much grief.Sometimes I think we can all be a bit dishonest about our neighbours. I’m sure there are many good old republicans who follow English football teams without any sense of irony or love some great british bands or comedy , without any sense of irony whatsoever.
I think you’re on the right track there Paddy. I don’t know that telling people Londoners don’t care about them really matters, (in a big country what city cares about any other) but more examples of people in the south who are as British as them (including lost of people born in GB) and get on great might be a way forward.
One of the things that frustrates me is the republican dismissal of Fine Gael types as West Brits and traitors. From my point of view Fine Gael are the only southern party that’s ever really tried to do any serious outreach – by which I mean straight up sharing things we’ve got in common rather than telling people the Brits don’t like them really and patronising stuff about United Irishmen. This week we’ve had Heather Humphreys who likes to point out that she’s an Ulsterwoman, a Presbyterian and a proud (Fine Gael version) republican. People who want to change unionist hearts and minds should be careful about the message they send when they attack her for not being Irish enough.
I wonder sometimes do republicans appreciate how all-Island a lot of unionist life already is. As Jessica’s said on another thread, apart from football the sports we play are as all-Island as any GAA club. Ireland’s Hockey team is in the Olympics and thats almost entirely a Greater Belfast and South Dublin team achievement with players from a handful of schools. Our cricket team’s on the verge of test status (don’t know what that really means but apparently its a big deal). Sailing clubs on the Belfast Lough happily fly Tricolours for their Olympians and all-Island events in dinghy sailing. Golf’s got an all-island set-up. Ulster Prods take holidays in Donegal and go surfing in Clare like anyone else. Both my neighbours have kids that went to Trinity. The first big concert I went to was in Croke Park. So we’re not living in some parallel universe or even trying to live a separate existence from people in the south.
I was at a thing once where Garrett Fitzgerald (Bangor prod mum who was in the rising, early years there during the civil war or the war of independence) gave a talk. He said that in his mind unionists had always been more aware of their place in Ireland than some southern so-called nationalists who (he thought) found it too easy to put the north out of their minds.
One of the problems nationalism has in the North is that the wrong people are trying to sell the benefits of uniting Ireland. Nationalists are still demanding “rights” from unionists who genuinely can’t work out what it is they’ve got that nationalists don’t and who therefore conclude that nationalist rights must mean they’re going to have to lose some, intangible, thing. Cultural expression takes on this out of proportion status because people see it as a test of their security. If you’re not allowed to walk from church into town in Northern Ireland what else would you lose in a United Ireland?
Arlene Foster’s 45. For her entire life the Macrory report has been accepted and the recommendations included in the 1973 and later acts. There’s been an independent boundary commission to ensure there’s no gerrymandering, STV elections, an independent housing executive and fair employment legislation. When she was in her twenties legislation was introduced that makes a northern nationalist’s vote about 30% more powerful than a unionist one (as unionist designated parties outnumber nationalists 56 to 43 but both blocks have the same right to reject legislation). 50/50 recruitment was introduced to the PSNI (because prods need “manners” put on them).
We have an equality commission that seems to be entirely staffed by catholic women and we’re told by the commission’s bosses that that’s because protestant candidates just don’t have enough understanding of discrimination. And (to a unionist) unionist lives are also less important that those of nationalists as twenty years after republican (and other) prisoners were released to secure peace nationalists are demanding the prosecution of anyone involved in a killing if they were wearing a uniform at the time. And I understand the case for every one of those (and I’m happy enough with them) but nationalists must understand how unfair the apparently one-sided weight of these measures must seem to some unionists – especially people under 40 who think the last generation of unionists paid more than enough for the real or imagined crimes of even earlier generations.
So lectures on morality and rights aren’t going to work unless they’re about the rights of unionists in a united Ireland. That might be annoying but if you want to sell a united Ireland you need to sell it on self-interest because no-one really thinks nationalists are owed anything more than an equal vote in an open referendum and the rights and protections they’ve already secured. In any border referendum we’re all going to be making individual decisions for our own selfish selves. Sadly Southern parties (like Fine Gael) that have a history of winning votes from southern prods seem to be better positioned to sell those benefits to people from a unionist background than our own nationalist friends and neighbours.
“I wonder sometimes do republicans appreciate how all-Island a lot of unionist life already is. As Jessica’s said on another thread, apart from football the sports we play are as all-Island as any GAA club. Ireland’s Hockey team is in the Olympics and thats almost entirely a Greater Belfast and South Dublin team achievement with players from a handful of schools. Our cricket team’s on the verge of test status (don’t know what that really means but apparently its a big deal). Sailing clubs on the Belfast Lough happily fly Tricolours for their Olympians and all-Island events in dinghy sailing. Golf’s got an all-island set-up. Ulster Prods take holidays in Donegal and go surfing in Clare like anyone else. Both my neighbours have kids that went to Trinity. The first big concert I went to was in Croke Park. So we’re not living in some parallel universe or even trying to live a separate existence from people in the south.”
I almost feel like giving you a great big hug BYC. 🙂
“One of the problems nationalism has in the North is that the wrong people are trying to sell the benefits of uniting Ireland.”
I agree BYC, it should be the two states not only selling a united Ireland but putting measures in place to unify our economies, strengthen our relationships between the two islands, removing the duplication of administration, harmonising business legislation and tax, reforming our social welfare and health to suit the needs of our small island.
To leave it all in the hands of two communities who have committed atrocious acts against one another for decades and who are struggling in a post conflict society is simply equally disgraceful on behalf of both states.
“So lectures on morality and rights aren’t going to work unless they’re about the rights of unionists in a united Ireland.”
Again, I support this 100%.
I don’t want anything extra for nationalists in a new Ireland. In fact, I would rather unification did not come about as a result of a 50% + 1 majority referendum, but from a negotiated Ireland with unionism at its strongest.
Excellent BYC. Now why can’t neill make a response like that with a few points to chew on? The main point for any of us is the selling of the idea.Anyone with a titter of wit knows that we’re not talking about some utopian dream when we judge and juggle the pros and cons of a new united nation of Irish people .
It has to have built-in safeguards for everyone ,which to my mind, means something secular that cuts across all the religious divisions while protecting the rights of everyone to choose their own particular life-style.I wouldn’t want a New ireland where anyone was dominated by a singular ethos .I would want a New Ireland with an all Ireland Health service for example…similar to the one and better than the one we are currently used to …. and one in which our relationship with the UK was on a mutually equal basis.
I’d want a New Ireland where we could cross-pollinate our ideas with the UK ….one where we could embrace and share our cultural differences and diversities while retaining what is unique in us.That might eventually mean a kind of federal type of Ireland (which might suit the UK what with Scotland’s and possibly Wales’ itchy feet?) but I’d be open to any new ideas where we would all be winners.
There is no reason for unionists to lose if the thing was handled properly. Remember , unionists used to live in a united Ireland not so long ago.In fact, if unionists continued to support their current type of political parties (for purely tribal reasons) they would still possess a hefty and powerful voting block in any future New Ireland….a huge percentage really. Of course, in those projected new circumstances, many current unionists might shift their political ideas and possibly vote for smaller parties like the Greens or less conservative groupings…who knows how a new situation might pan out once the fear factor was taken out of the equation?
“Can you not even try to take unionists at their word when they say they want to maintain the rights of a citizen of the U.K?”
I do indeed, but I am more interested in my rights as a citizen of Ireland living in the north and am not interested one jot in being a citizen of the UK.
In fact I have seen enough of the protections offered from the UK state and want no part of it.
The sooner we get out the better.
And my capital city isn’t London, it is Dublin, just down the road by car or by train. Why cant you accept that?
How can we ever get along if you refuse to accept my rights as an Irish citizen?
This thing needs an edit function!
@ BYC I have no problem whatsoever with individuals who support ” equal access with other UK citizens to the best of Europe’s universities, pride in institutions like the BBC, the RNLI (ok you’ve got this), the Commonwealth (whose games northern Irish athletes get to participate in and Irish athletes don’t) the NHS, the National Trust, British secularism, and yes, even Britain’s armed services. Just feeling part of a unit with 64 million other people in a big wide world and having a world city like London as your capital appeals to some”
Like many others I do have a problem with the same individuals who foist their preferences on everybody else, whatever the social, economic, etc costs, and expect everyone else to conform to these preferences and express no others.
It’s fantastic that we’re having this debate on uniting all of Ireland’s people – there would appear to be a growing number of people who share these aspirations. Of course it’s going to take time and a lot of hard work, reconciliation and political leadership to address the socioeconomic problems we currently face across this small island.
There isn’t a simple “one size fits all solution” to how we do this, but the Good Friday Agreement was, in my opinion, the first cog in the wheel towards realising this. The vast, vast majority of the people on this island, north, south, east and west endorsed the concept and principles of that agreement, with peace being at its core.
With peace on our streets, should follow peace in our hearts and minds – that’s the theory any way, however, the reality is, there remains a negative undercurrent of the past, which is slowing down the positives signs of an inclusive future. By not dealing with the past properly and/or a reluctance to accept, by unionist politicians (obviously not all but a large section) they were/are as responsible for “our troubles” as anyone during the conflict.
No one denies the suffering inflicted upon black South African’s by an apartheid driven minority white government. How can anyone deny that a similar situation happened here on this small island, with partition?
Partitioning such a small island and treating almost half the population of that partitioned state differently to that of their neighbour, could only have resulted in one thing, that was the fight for equality in whatever way the message was going to get heard. This message was tried in a dignified and peaceful manner onto the British army decided to slaughter the very citizens it was supposed to be protecting. We all know what proceeded and of course it was regrettable, my point being, all sides were involved in our conflict here. Regardless of who thinks who was responsible, there needs to be an admittance from the British state that it had its part to play in Ireland’s troubles.
Yes, the Queen has shown leadership on behalf of the nation she represents, by visiting the Garden of Remembrance in the south, paying tribute to the men and women who fought for Irish freedom against her nation. Political unionism, especially their leaders, need to take a leaf from their head of state’s book and follow suit, something they continue to refuse to do.
How can we truly move on to a brighter future, one where we can reconcile or differences and be at peace with our neighbour, when we have a new Joint First Minster, who has set out her stall that she’s only going to represent the unionist people.
Surely this is a throw back to the past. I was really hoping that Arlene could have shown she’s up for inclusivity and accepted 1916 was part of our shared history.
It would appear she is swimming towards the concept of peace and reconciliation with heavy boots on, not the message, I believe, the vast, vast majority of people here want to receive. Perhaps some of the leadership skills, emanating from the other Joint First Minister, will rub off on her in the not so distant future.
Although the way things are going, it looks like, unfortunately, it will be a case of playing a numbers game, before we see real inclusivity. Let’s hope we don’t have to wait too much longer Martin, thank you very much.