Dr John Coulter has posted a blog on the QUB website Political Mindfields, which is master-minded by Dr Francis Teeney. It urges the formation of an Irish Christian Party, north and south. You can read the blog at http://blogs.qub.ac.uk/politicalmindfields/2016/02/24/christian-politics-a-force-for-good/
I wrote the following blog in response to Dr Coulter’s. Since I plan to be debating the idea with him on BBC Raidio Uladh/Radion Ulster on tomorrow morning’s Sunday Sequence (9.00 a.m.), I’d appreciate any points you might like to add on the topic. I need all the ammunition I can get – thinking makes my head hurt…
If you ever doubted the aptness of the title of Francis Teeney’s blogsite’s – Political Mindfields – a quick read of a bog by Dr John Coulter’s “Christian Politics – a Force for Good” (25 February) should end all doubt. Dr Coulter has stumbled into the site and detonated himself with his own blog.
On the face of it, you might think that his central suggestion has validity: why not have a Christian political party, one that spans the border and argues for Christian values in an increasingly Godless society? As he says:
“The Christian Church in Ireland, north and south, is facing a theological relevance problem as it loses society’s support on core Biblical issues, such as abortion, homosexuality, divorce, assisted suicide and relations with Islam.”
Unfortunately, there is no ‘Christian Church’ in Ireland, as he himself concedes: instead there are over two dozen flavours of Protestantism and a wide range of thinking within Catholicism.
I used the words ‘span the border’ to describe Dr Coulter’s political project. That may be misleading: his plan is for an Irish Christian Party (ICP) operating in the Dail and at Stormont. So Irish Chistian unity in politics, but no political unity in Christian Ireland.
Part of Dr Coulter’s problem is that he appears to be trying to ride two horses at once.
First there’s the Christian horse, which as he concedes gallops off in at least twenty-five directions at once. His solution for this disarray seems to be that the new IPC should “rekindle the spirit of the famous 1859 Revival which swept across Ireland”. Catholics must tread a Catholic Revivalist path –they must be born again.
“Ireland was once the great bastion of the Church-State relationship, especially in the Eamon de Valera era. But now Irish Catholics need a new set of beliefs, which will see the pews overflowing as they did in the Swinging Sixties.”Dr Coulter would appear to be endorsing, even praising Church-State relations in the south during the era of Dev and John Charles McQuaid. I lived in the south during that time, John, and you have to be joking. As for those overflowing pews in the ‘Swinging Sixties’: overflowing pews told us nothing of the understanding or commitment of those occupying them; besides which they stopped overflowing shortly after San Francisco gave up on Flower Power.
But Dr Coulter remains optimistic:
“A new faith – Pentecostal Catholicism – is slowly, but surely sweeping across the island. If Irish Catholics take this spiritual route, their faith will blossom as never before. This should not be misinterpreted as Catholics converting to Protestantism. But it does mean Irish Catholicism institutionally cutting its Vatican ties.”
”John, John – that Pentecostal Catholic wave you’re celebrating – what’s that got to do with a political party? And could we Catholics know why we’re to break the link with Rome before we do it, or just take it on, um, faith? As for your belief that Catholic clergy sexual abuse “represents the depth of the rot” within that Catholic Church: have you checked levels of sexual abuse among Protestant ministers? Or other faiths? Or none? You’ll find it instructive, I promise you.
It’s impossible to deny the sincerity and enthusiasm of Dr Coulter’s plan. Unfortunately, that plan is more than a little muddled. Most of the politicians in Ireland north and south would probably describe themselves as Christian. Is it that John believes they’re not Christian enough, hence the need for an Irish Christian Party? And will the establishment of that party go ahead now or will it have to wait until Irish Catholicism makes a break with Rome? Finally and most tellingly, since at present the people of Ireland north and south are electing politicians who appear to hold unsatisfactory views about abortion, homosexuality, divorce, etc, what makes you think they’re going to elect Irish Christian Party candidates with contrary views?
I haven’t met John Coulter but I have no doubt he is a good and sincere man, despite his views on the rottenness of the Irish Catholic Church. But his Irish Christian Party notion suggests he has all the political vision of a sight-impaired bat.
What’s the ‘Christian view’ on integrated education, Muslim faith schools, the rights of citizens who are LGBT? Oh, and water charges and banks repossessing family homes after financial crises caused by ‘the moneylenders’?
“Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition”
Dr Coulter states,
“ICP activists must show the same zeal to succeed in getting elected as their forefathers in the Spanish Inquisition and the Puritan Witchfinders…
We could do with more of Palin and less of Ximénez, Biggles or Fang. In relation to comments about the 1859 religious revival which swept across Ireland, Dr Coulter ought to reflect on the reality of An Gorta Mór. It was not a God that removed food from the country.
Caroline Elkins wrote in ‘Britain’s Gulag’:
“Throughout the Mau Mau war Christian missionaries would carefully balance their outrage over colonial violence…they wanted to above all else to continue God’s work in upholding Britain’s civilizing mission.” (p.94)
“The colonial government benefited greatly from the relative silence and outright support of many of the local Christian missionaries…” (p.298)
“Government rhetoric had British citizens believing that their boys in Kenya were fighting a war for human progress and against godless savages bent on destroying Christian values.” (p.308)
The thought of a missionary with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other, or pictures of cardinals blessing B52 bombers, suggests the need for vigilance in relation to modern day crusaders and the potential for more clerical errors.
Coulter writes a bizarre column for one of the tabloids and contributes even more nonsense to McIntyre’s “pensive quill”. Enough said!
“I think such a proposal could be almost as successful as NI21 – but I wouldn’t bet on it!”
Judging by the track record of religious controlled organisations in Ireland they could merge and call it cni21, Christian nymphos incorporated.
If it is all island, then what would the Christian party view on partition be?
Will it promote unification or be happy to maintain the division in Ireland imposed by England?
The only integrated education I am interested in is 32 county integrated education.
I would never send my children to a foreign state run school, whether it occupies my country or not.
The actual religion taught would be much less important to me.
Have to agree with you Jessica, If I ever sow the seed myself one day and there’s a couple of little Ryan’s running about, then the only schools they will be going to is Catholic schools, they wont ever be going to State schools. No one in my family has ever went to state schools.
There is a very determined effort by some within Unionism to get Catholic schools ditched (despite them being, by far, the best schools here) and have only state schools. Why? I’ve came across Unionists on twitter who are extremely bitter towards Catholic schools. These same Unionists aren’t so keen on integrated housing but they seem very interested in getting Catholic children out of the Catholic classroom and into a state one. Any agenda any Unionist has can not in any way, shape or form be good for the Catholic community, that’s been proven by over 400 years of history. The whole reason the penal laws were brought in in the first place was to force Catholics to abandon Catholicism when all efforts by Protestant clergy to convert us failed.
I remember a quote by Fr Denis McFaul in reference to forced integrated education and he said something to the effect of that integrated education was a British “Trojan Horse”. I agree with him 100%. This is me speculating but it seems to me Unionists want to have Catholic children away from a Catholic sphere of influence and into a British sphere of influence. It may be a bit drastic (or maybe not) but to me that sounds like the desire to brainwash.
One way or another Catholic education will be staying, its the best education here and I certainly wouldn’t advise any Catholic parent to send their children to a state school, not because there’s Protestant children there but because of who runs those schools and what’s being taught.
“This is me speculating but it seems to me Unionists want to have Catholic children away from a Catholic sphere of influence and into a British sphere of influence. It may be a bit drastic (or maybe not) but to me that sounds like the desire to brainwash. ”
That is exactly what they want Ryan.
I never realised how much of a difference it could make until conversing with unionists on this forum or blog.
It is like we speak a different language.
I never would have considered the UK as a country but a union of countries, yet it took me a while to learn that some unionists like MT see Irelands democratic right to independence to be reliant on the opinion of the whole country which includes all of the nations within the UK.
Once I heard that, there was no point talking any further.
To me that would be the same as a brexit requiring the permission of all of the EU.
As far as I am concerned, unionists are not my people. England is a foreign country to me, just as much as the USA would be in that we both can communicate but that is really about it.
Well, it turns out that not only is England a foreign country to me, but unionists in my own country it seems are just as foreign.
I guess that is down to state run schools brain washing young protestants to believe they are not irish, any wonder they see the UK as a country. What else do they have?
Then again, my own son came home recently having been learning about WW2 at just 8 yrs. He knew neville chamberlain was PM before the war and churchill was PMN after the war.
I want particularly impressed he was learning about a world war so young, but more distressed that he thought Germans were bad people and that churchill was a good person.
If they are teaching that crap in a catholic school, I can only imagine what goes on in state schools.
My children will be taught that Germans are good people and that Churchill wasn’t.
Cannot agree with you Ryan. The Catholic Church, being the Multinational Company that it really is, just like Trump, like BP, like every other arsehole Big organisation looks first and foremost after its own interest. When children were being hurt by this Multinational,hurt in the most grievous way, this Company sought to look after the criminals within and not the victims. Would you really let these people control the education of your future progeny? The education of your future country? Astonishing.
Bye the way if you think that the Church ever supported a 32 county United Ireland then you have obviously been reading a different history of Ireland to the one on my bookshelves. The Church will always do what is best for the Church.
I remember as a very young man in the late 1960s or early1970s standing protesting outside the Cardinals house on the Antrim Road. ( was it his summer residence or his winter abode), and thinking while glimpsing over the outside wall and hedge “Jeez my parents and my grandparents halfpennies and farthings paid for this”. While a single man called Conway lived in a multi bedroom mansion, the very same people who paid for said mansion were being burnt out of their homes and left homeless.
Jude back to the question at hand. Yep let them form their ICP. The more people are exposed to middleclass bachelors in long black dresses telling people about some guy who walked on water the better for a laugh.
Go for it Jude!
I think such a proposal could be almost as successful as NI21 – but I wouldn’t bet on it!
We seem to have stolen a march on you in this regard of religious parties, Esteemed Blogmeister. But, of course, as this is only March we will have to wait till the Marching Season of July/ August for youse in Norneverland to catch up.
Down here in the progressive Free Southern Stateen we already have our religious party. It’s a grand, big sprawling alliance which incorporates effers who can effortlessly eff from an imaginary fragmentation of parties with F as their initial Initial.
-A party of developer cowboys called S.U.
Up to their extinction last week, there was a third party of the (alleged) corduroy hoi poli which did not boast a F. in its title: (titter ye not) The Late Irish Labour Party . But don’t let that title fuel your laughter: if anything, it was that party which is now toast, the LILP who, if anything did most, before they developed a terminal LILP, to put the U into S.U.:
-Southern Unionist.
Despite, erm, protestations to the contrary till indeed they are blue of face as well as shirt, that they are (yawn) ‘spiritual but not religious’ the, erm, polar opposite is the reality of the S.U. By their acts be they judged: feel that Arctic tone of voice when the FG refer to that cult known as the Shinners, hear that Antarctical gale when FF has a blast at the Shinners for not being a true religion at all, at all.
Truly did the Romans know what they were doing when they decided to give the country they aptly named Hibernia a hiss and a myth. Truly is the political edifice south of the Black Sow’s Dyke a – press pause button here, while one ponders the image best suited to the property developer type – one almost wrote ‘mindset’ ! – ah, yes, depress pause button – a, erm, ‘cold house’ for the Celtic cult which (gasp) continues to besmirch the name of Republicanism.
Not unlike sport, religion is the most politicized facet of F.S.S. society, going f. Possibly even more politicized than politics itself.
Take a gander at sport, briefly. And see how the three major politcal football codes are portrayed by the homogeneous hackitariat of, say, The Unionist Times and its Broadcasting Wing of Record, RTE.
-G.A. could be short for the G.A.A. such is the (yawn) neverending downpour of dog’s abuse it is subjected to.
-The McCannonisation of Salamander Man, cold, remote and robotic, continues unabated in the pages of TUT even as the G.A.A.-loathing Brian O’Connor has taken to parroting the party line that Arsene Wenger (for it is he!) and ‘romance’ can be legitimately used in the same sentence. This lickspittle treatment of Arsene of the Arsenal whose romantic annual incomings amount to a paltry 11 million squids is, sadly, an indication that concussion may well be more prevalent in soccer, oops, football than is generally allowed. All those heavy wet balls, leather and laced, and headed during the heady days of boyhood are now, sadly, beginning to take their toll.
-The I.R.F.U. Ah, yes, its true blue, duckegg-shaped ballgame has now achieved the rightful status of The National Game. No doubt due to its lengthening list of decisive defeats at the feet of mediocre opposition. Which shoulder to shoulder status automatically entitles it to first dibs when it comes to choosing The National Tantrum. No place no more for the Leprechaun in the new dispensation of gigantic Gym Bunnies. It’s now a case of Brontosaurus and Them leprechauns.
As for the politicization of religion by parties of the first instance.
When the Dissident Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin was a guest/ victim some weeks ago on the Dame Dosh Finnucane Show on RTE Radio 1, he mentioned, almost as an afterthought that ‘church services would be curtailed in the backstreet Pro-Cathedral because of traffic restrictions caused by the Easter Rising Ceremonies’ , blank was the response.
The transcendentally impartial hostess chose not even to ignore the remark. Opting instead to move hurriedly on to the meat of their meeting on air to the air of:
-Sweet Vale of A.V.O.C.A.
(Cue another courageous hackette attack re the RCs and ‘A Victim of Child Abuse’.)
When more recently , however, the Real Archbishop of Dublin (i.e. the one with the Two Fully Grown and Full Blown Cathedrals), the reverend (gulp) Michael Jackson of the (correctly entitled ) Church of Ireland stridently yet reverentially entered the fray with his Cruiser-like crozier aloft, with a similar expression of dissatisfaction on behalf of his own flock, and such as had been previously expressed by the dissy geezer, deaf ears this time were decidedly not turned.
Action, of the swift and Jonathan type, was taken.
Especially when the Bullock-befriending Bruton of Royal Meath / the Fifth Province entered the fray, courtesy of the Rite and Reason column in The Unionist Times. Which fifth column is, of course, part of the intellectual diocese of the uncannily impartial Patsy McGarry, Bacherlor of Arts and pillar of the Unionist, oops, Unitarian Church on St. Stephen’s Green.
Quote the genuflective and reflective BbB:
-I do feel that, as Easter Sunday is the most important day in the Christian year, access to church services should be prioritized over other events. I have made representations to that effect to both the Commissioner and the Minister of Justice.
When the Bullock-befriending Bruton was double jobbing as PrIme Minister of Eire / Plenipotentiary of Her Majesty’s Government on the Mainland (which titular head of religion of course has her varnished nail on the nuclear button) his oblong-shaped office in Government Buildings one of the framed photographs he opted to hang on the wall caused some puzzlement to the generality of frequenters. and occasional visitors alike.
Not so, The Perkin.
It was the emblematic Dublin photograph of the steam engine train which crashed through the restraining wall of the now lamented Harcourt Street Station in 1900. There the protruding snout of the locomotive was left dangling in mid-air high above the brick-strewn debris on the street below for an appreciable amount of time.
Thus, giving the local enterprising, pre-selfie photographers oodles of time to set up their tripods, poke their heads under the velveteen cloth, adjust the lens and snap in slow motion to their hearts’ content on their momentous Kodak cameras with utterly surprising shutter speeds.
Luckily, there was no (human) fatality, though as it was a cattle train there was (sadly) a fatality. The unfortunate victim being (gulp) a bullock. Curiously, the train had come from Enniscorthy, from the same diocese as that of John Redmond whose famed photograph also hung in the same oblong office. (see above).
-Cometh the hour, cometh the modus operandi.
John , the bullock-befriending Baptist of Southern Unionism:
-Prey for us.
PS. The Michael Jackson mentioned above is not to be confused with Michael Jackson. Whereas the latter lived in Neverland the former was born in Norneverland. And although the resident of Neverland was eminently qualified to make a recording of ‘Sweet Vale of A.V.O.C.A.’ for whatever reason, he never did.
But, perhaps, the biggest differentiation between the pair of Michael Jacksons is that he native of Norneverland gets to wear the more flamboyant outfits. The same kinda fancy dresses which Dame Dosh Finucane found so hilarious on air when worn by Old Red Socks and his counterpart, The Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox, when they exchanged missiles, ooops, missals in Cuba recently.
It would appear than the funny bone of DDF has yet to be tickled to the same extent by the ceremonial garb of the Real Archbishop of Dublin.
Cen fath? / Why?
Who knows? / Ca fios?
-Prey for us.
The truth will always out, eventually.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/29/protestants-abuse-catholics-methodist-church
Its about power, domination etc and not merely about men hiding behind the RC Church and its clerical celibacy. There is no pleasure in pointing this out (due to the indiscriminate devastation caused) as an Irish Republican/Nationalist/laissez faire Catholic but one awaits the revelations sure to be forthcoming elsewhere in the religious make-up of our island homeland. How will our fellow British countrymens political establishment react? Surely the smugness will be absent and the silence deafening!
There is a need for a Centre-right of Centre all Ireland political force/party which mirrors Sinn Féins strong stance on Unification. It will provide more choice on the spectrum and thereby increase the potential yield in terms of votes and seats. It might be, in the north, the stimulus to entice more Nationalists to engage with the political process and more importantly VOTE. FF would seem to be such a vehicle. Its credibility is well on its way to being restored down here (quelle suprise) so a move such as this, in light of the 1916 events and decade of commemorations etc, might be a very astute move on their part.
I (a damnable pagan) think it IS a good idea to have an Irish Christian party.
First of all, it’ll separate the evangelical wheat from the chaff. At the moment people can vote DUP i.e. God & Fleg. An outright God party would hopefully kick this holy stool out from under their feet.
The implications of such an act are very deep, for example Irish nationalists (and many non-nationalists) would have no idea of the constant political warfare within the OO between the evangelicals/comeallye’s and the ‘ordinary’ protestants (and lest ye be in doubt most of the stuff Irish nationalists don’t like about the OO comes from the evangelical side of the OO, but perhaps this is a different topic…). A Christian party might alter this set-up.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Irish Catholicism gives way to Pentecostalism, it’s happened in other Catholic countries e.g. Brazil, however, Brazil doesn’t have an Orange Order to polarise religions.
Anyhoo, if we had a Christian party to absorb the faithful of the DUP, TUV, SDLP and (perhaps) SF then that would leave the other parties to concentrate on their raison d’etre which I would welcome. I’m happy to part of the union, I just don’t want religion to be a foundation of that political belief, unionism shouldn’t be pseudo-Zionism (though it is…).
“I’m happy to part of the union, I just don’t want religion to be a foundation of that political belief, unionism shouldn’t be pseudo-Zionism (though it is…).”
The division in Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with religion AG though I agree Ireland will always be a Christian country and that we could do with less extremist attitudes.
The bottom line however, is the majority of people in Ireland do not want their country divided and do not want to be ruled by England.
Sooner or later we are going to have to verify that in a referendum and implement the result.
Sure, the orange order causes sectarian issues among communities throughout Ireland wherever it parades its evil, but the orange order is also not responsible for the division in Ireland.
English rule in Ireland is the cause of division that has resulted in numerous conflicts over many centuries and it is highly unlikely that will end until England leaves.
doesn’t anybody think church and state should be separated? – like in the USA or france?
What ireland north and south needs is no more religion in politics.
And that does not mean abolishing catholic schools –
Ryan asked: There is a very determined effort by some within Unionism to get Catholic schools ditched (despite them being, by far, the best schools here) and have only state schools. Why?
This might go some way towards answering the question:
“DUP espousal of the primacy of children being educated together is as “political” as the intent of their Unionist forebears nearly a century ago .
DUP is required to do something they have not done before; make the union attractive to large swathes of Catholics who would self-identify as Irish, a demographic they have traditionally done their utmost to antagonise”.
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/09/19/in-the-beginning-was-the-empire/
Is it Christian to have a party that only represents Christians?