There’s a piece in today (or maybe yesterday)’s Irish News /VO by Jim Gibney, in which he calls for unity of purpose among nationalist voters. Such unity makes sense if only in terms of self-preservation. The SDLP continues to decline despite its bright new leader; between the SDLP and Sinn Féin there is a drop of nearly 5% in those voting. Gibney is right to urge co-ordinated approach to issues.
I suggest they start with a big issue – partition. The usual talk about heightening community tensions can be safely dismissed as bluster, since we’re talking about an issue which is nominally a feature of both parties’ To Do list. Although a desire for a re-united Ireland is, we’re told (sort of), common among several other political parties in Ireland as well.
There are those such as the People Before Profit party of Eamonn McCann and Gerry Carroll who will ignore the constitutional question, as will the Greens and the Alliance Party, and that’s their prerogative. The DUP and the UUP will, of course, be opposed to change in the constitutional position. So let’s confine co-ordinated action to firstly and most importantly Sinn Féin and the SDLP. And since we’re talking all-Ireland here, let’s include the Fine Gael and Fianna Fail parties.
Let’s establish the answer to a basic question: Are you as a party committed to the re-unification of Ireland? No provisos, no buts or ifs – just the simple question. Parties have the right to say No as well as Yes. But it is important that we have the range of commitment to re-unification clarified.
Assuming that all parties give a Yes, or even if some of the parties give a Yes, a meeting or series of meetings might then be convened in which the obvious follow-up question would be asked: What kind of united Ireland do you envisage?
To say that the Good Friday Agreement has parked all that, we should concentrate on bread-and-butter issues, is to suggest people aren’t capable of thinking about more than one thing: day-to-day survival. Besides we’re talking here about political parties, the members of which are paid comfortable salaries.
We’re told by the Belfast Telegraph and other polls that people aren’t interested in such vague aspirations as a united Ireland. But there are some people who are, or who say they are. If a shared and specific vision of what a united Ireland would look like could be agreed, and a detailed study conducted showing how it would work, that would be a massive step forward.
A second question that could be addressed by those committed to national unity would be: What practical steps can we take to make a referendum popular and possible? The Good Friday Agreement says there will be a referendum on reunification only when there is a clear will for it. First Minister Arlene Foster is on record as telling nationalists/republicans to be careful what they wish for, they may get it. And she has a point. The present fragmented state, where at least four major parties throughout Ireland would claim to have a wish for national unity yet continually work against each other, makes no sense.
So let’s get this age-old hare out into the open. Let’s find out which political parties are committed to reunification and which simply give unity a wink and a nod. Then let’s hammer out the answer to a crucial follow-up: what we mean by a ‘reunited Ireland ’? What would it look like in terms of Health, Education, jobs, infrastructure? What financial cost would be involved? What reasonable financial benefits, if any, might be expected to flow from unity. In short, the time has come for a detailed study of what we mean by this term which has dominated voting patterns for decades.
Assuming that a level of agreement can be found on that, an obvious question would be, how can people be encouraged to share this vision? At that point or shortly after, a referendum on the subject might be called for. And as Scotland showed, the prospect of a coming referendum concentrates the national mind wonderfully.
None of the above diminishes or underestimates the importance of the clichéd bread-and-butter issues. But since even Donald Trump is capable of thinking about domestic affairs and foreign affairs, shouldn’t the Irish people be capable of the same?
Discuss.
The GFA is the only show in town. We can all agree on that as it was emphatically endorsed by the people of Ireland – North and South of the border. In a nutshell it tells us that if the majority of people of Ireland want a UI then they will have a UI and conversely if they don’t want a UI then we won’t have a UI. That’s the way it is and that’s the way it should be so there’s the starting point.
The GFA says:
“the Secretary of State shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.”
There’s the starting point. What does it take to make a SoS confident?
– Election results? If so which ones and what do they have to show?
– Polls? If so which ones and what do they have to show?
– The census? If so what does it have to show?
– A combination of these? If so, what do they need to show?
Only when this is set in stone (and surely the guarantors of the GFA would be equally keen to clear this up as it will cover their asses too) will the size of the task be evident for all to see. Everyone will be in a position to see where they are, where they want to be, the distance between the two and can start formulating a plan on how to get there.
Why this blindingly obvious question has not been asked is beyond me and to me perfectly highlights the laziness of political nationalism. They say they are nationalist but what exactly have they done to progress the one thing that makes them nationalist? Diddly squat. And they wonder why the vote is down again???
The key to this whole thing is an informed electorate making an informed decision – that is what everyone should be working towards.
Nailed it, Morpheus (again). When you think of it, it’s outrageous that the deciding factor is the judgement (considered or otherwise) of the SoS that a referendum would go Yes. (i) SoS doesn’t have to provide evidence for belief; (ii) What sort of referendum gets called with the British SoS saying ‘I believe this will be the outcome’? Talk about power without responsibility.
The SoS is essentially a person that nobody here voted for deciding if he/she thinks a border poll would succeed. Totally subjective. It’s bizarre.
Setting the criteria in stone has benefits for everyone because EVERYONE, regardless of who the SoS happens to be that term, knows what is required.
From a unionist perspective imagine if Corbyn (and his apparent chumminess with SF) was SoS and he felt that a border poll would succeed so called it? Has he done anything illegal or against the terms of the GFA? Nope. Imagine some future Tory thought that it would be cheaper to jettison NI so decided to call one? Anything illegal or against the GFA? Nope.
From a nationalist perspective if the criteria was that 51% of the MLAs at the last assembly election designated as nationalist then at least nationalism would know that they are currently at 37% and can see the mammoth size of the task ahead of them.
I guess I am just sick and tired of the electorate being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed the occasional bizarre poll saying that the appetite for a UI is really low despite the fact that they’ve just asked 1000 people to give an opinion on something they know nothing about. Would a soft drink maker ask for the opinions of people on their new brand of drink – and asking them to drink it forever – without letting them know anything about it? No. Why is the UI question any different?
No, an informed electorate making a informed decision is the way ahead and until such times these “polls” should be disregarded with the derision they deserve.
Asking what criteria has to be met in order for a SoS to be confident that a border poll would succeed is quick, easy and helps everyone. Why not ask it?
Morpheus
I completely agree the criteria are much too vague. It would be a very good start to get some clarity on what the SoS needs to make her decision.
I assume it cannot be the belief that a ‘yes’ will be the outcome as it would not be politically acceptable to say that.
I think it is more nebulous, maybe just reading the runes and deciding it is worth having a vote.
It should really be more open and quantifiable than that.
Exactly giordanobruno. Setting the criteria in stone protects everyone
Well done – the GFA was a complete mess and why the nationalist people ever voted for it is beyond me. As far as partition was concerned it was a negation of the nationalist position that Ireland was an island state and country. To me it criminalised all those who fought for a united Ireland. Not only that it verified the British position. In fact it went further than the British ever done by adding another element, another hurdle to jump to make unification theoretically harder to achieve. The vote for it by the south. Think of the implications behind that stricture. What does it suggest?
We handed the right to dictate the future of Ireland over to Westminster. What possible justification could any Irish nationalist have for agreeing to that. The Irish people should be the sole arbiters. never should it have been any foreigner.
Exactly, WE agreed to the GFA. WE had a proposal put before us and we unanimously agreed to it. WE agreed that if WE want a united Ireland then we will get it – both Governments have signed up to respect the will of the people – and conversely if WE don’t want a UI then it won’t happen. So if WE want it then WE have to make it happen, it’s within the grasp of the Irish people. Peacefully and democratically.
There is absolutely no point moaning about the GFA, it’s the only show in town. Nationalism has to either play the game and play it hard or we give up and go home….our decision.
did the south vote on the gfa.
Resoundingly so on May 22nd, 1998
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement
“The Agreement was approved by voters across the island of Ireland in two referendums held on 22 May 1998. In Northern Ireland, voters were asked whether they supported the multi-party agreement. In the Republic of Ireland, voters were asked whether they would allow the state to sign the agreement and allow necessary constitutional changes to facilitate it. ”
NI: 71% Yes
RoI: 94% Yes
“The GFA is the only show in town. We can all agree on that as it was emphatically endorsed by the people of Ireland – North and South of the border. In a nutshell it tells us that if the majority of people of Ireland want a UI then they will have a UI and conversely if they don’t want a UI then we won’t have a UI. That’s the way it is and that’s the way it should be so there’s the starting point.”
No, things have changed.
The south have abandoned their citizens in the north post GFA and that should not be forgotten.
The economy in the north will grow into the future, the north has the potential to eclipse the economy in the south in time. There is more than one way to irish unity. The fastest would be the south supporting the north now, the alternative which could take 50 years or more would be for the north to outperform the south economically and to be the lead in unity under its own terms.
I resent very strongly the way the south has neglected its citizens in the north.
At present, it does not sit easy with me.
The GFA is dead. It does not allow for independence from london and dublin. The absence of this third option has left both london and dublin uninterested in the needs of the north as they are both secure whatever happens.
Perhaps with an independence option that could impact both, they would show a bit more respect especially as the economy recovers post conflict.
We should not underestimate how badly we have been treated already.
Here is a copy of the GFA Jessica, I can assure you that it very much allows for Ireland to be reunified if the people of Ireland want it badly enough:
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/agreement.htm#strand1
Regrettably it has not been fully implemented but it is very much not dead and was emphatically endorsed by the people of Ireland. It’s want the majority want. Time to get on board.
Would it help if the Irish Government made a statement reassuring Ireland that they still wants reunification? Or if FF/FG did it like Jude mentions in the OP?
“Here is a copy of the GFA Jessica, I can assure you that it very much allows for Ireland to be reunified if the people of Ireland want it badly enough:”
If if if Morpheus.
Lets stick to facts and what is actually happening, what is being said and what is being felt in the north.
The GFA was a fudge to get people to sign up to non violence, nothing more.
It equated the irish and british identities in the north in return for giving up the territorial claim over 6 counties of Ireland.
The very reason I never voted for it.
Since then, the irish identity has been ignored by london, dublin and unionism. Everything irish has been put down, blocked, mocked and insulted and we are now considered british only and insulted by what were formerly our own people in the south.
Sure, get on board, you would be still telling us to get on board in another 20 years if tolerated.
It is actually insulting to tell us we have no choice but to play second fiddle to irish citizens in the south.
The Irish Government doesn’t give a toss about reunification and if that is the case, neither do I.
I want british rule out of ireland and if they are not on board with then, at least let us know we are on our own, stop jerking us around so we can look for another solution. Your GFA train could very well be going in the wrong direction entirely and can puff off down the tracks alone if that is the case.
Dont assume we are all prepared to blindly follow any old train.
At least I have a train to follow Jessica. A train that will take everyone to a UI if the people of Ireland want it. Your approach is what exactly? Moan? Hold your breath until you get your way? Not a very productive use of time I’m sure you will agree. Surely it would be much better to say to yourself: “OK, my fellow Irish men/women voted for the GFA and, even though I don’t like it, within it there is a way to what I want, what can I do to make it happen?”
Neither FG or FF can seriously say they have any interest in unifying this country.
If anything, they have fostered divisions greater than any alien government could have.
The nationalist decline in voting for a british parliament in Ireland will decline more rapidly
even though the unionist vote will also decline.
Even with the increased voter turnout among unionists, they still declined overall which will accelerate each election going forward.
Unionism is no longer an issue. It is not even worth arguing with them any more.
What I want to know is whether the south have any interest in their citizens north of the border.
A good starting point would be clarification on just how many irish citizens there are in the 6 counties.
I believe it is over 500,000, but by how many, is it 600,000 or 1 million?
Is it not despicable that the Dail can disown so many of its citizens living an hours drive from Dublin.
It would be great to have a figure we can put to them, surely there is some way of finding out how many Irish passports are addressed to the north.
I have no interest in Stormont, i want representation in the Dail. I believe we are entitled to it and should demand it.
Britain is no longer the issue, it is the south that is giving the fingers to the north.
I think you are dead on correct Jessica, the south has to become more in volved. FF and FG have no interest in anything but lining their pockets and maintaining the status quo. I do feel that both the south and britain are giving the fingers to the north
Never fear Jessica, right on cue I see the free state establishment has roused itself to speak on our behalf. FF spokesman Brendan smith is urging folk to stay in Europe as it ‘wouldn’t be in the best interests of the union or the republic’ lol. Somehow I don’t think he is speaking out of concern for the irish citizens in the occupied territory do you? Rather the same old selfish concern he and his gombeens have for themselves. Added to that a commentator on Vincent Browne last nite revealed that some TDanna were proposing to go to towns and cities across England to help encourage folk to vote to stay in the EU. God love them. If this doesn’t convince people what side these gangsters are on nothing will.
These same gangsters chose not to interfere or voice an opinion when the union was in threat a couple of years ago during the Scottish independence campaign. Rather they fired out the standard line that ‘we don’t interfere interfere with the internal politics of another country blah blah’. Lord knows what they will NOT say if a United ireland campaign starts.
When I see Cameron,Obama,EU commissioners,gombeens politicians,royalists, greedy west Brits like Michael o’leary (btw they all urged the scots to stay in the UK also) etc demanding we stay in then it convinces me more to vote out. Does anyone really believe any of these clowns seriously give a damn about the small man? These tramps only campaign for their own interests.
As for our very own politicians? Well SF have me scratching my head again, as surely anything that threatens the union should be grasped with both hands? Nope, they obediently rally in behind the great and the good, rather than rock any boats.
Good article Jude.
Oh i hate partition so much, its a thorn in my everyday living.
At the post office yesterday in Lisburn. I had to post an A4 envelope. the woman says that will be £2.80…. oh she says i see the envelope is going international… that will be £5.80… it was only going to Co Meath.
Then trying to move money from Bank of Ireland (North) to Bank of Ireland (South). The lady said – “oh you will need a bankers draft, and allow 5 days for postage”, i said its the same bloody bank, she says ..”oh its treated as a foreign bank to us, safer hop in the car and drive down and put in in”
Whats the bloody NORTH SOUTH BODY doing !!!! – FECK ALL !!!!!
these are every day scourges of living with partition … have you any idea Jude !!!!???????
Back home in the Oriel county, I pick up ‘international’ phone signals. There is always that constant lingo in the house, “is that in Euro or Stirling “, “North South”, all the time.
A personnel rule i have – I keep euro in my left pocket, Stirling in my right.
Ireland should never have been partitioned. It was a ridiculous scourge to put on the people. It has cost so much pain, deaths and division.
It ruined the transport infrastructure.
The demise of the great Northern Railway. One could have got a train easily from Monaghan to Lisburn. One could have gotten on to a boat and sailed to lough Neagh up the Ulster Canal.
I don’t know, but everything has seemed to gone backwards.
And to make matters worse, the bloody DUP want Brexit after all of the above !!!!!!!!!!
Ah here, after the terrible elections last week for the Nationalists, i really cant see anything improving. its getting worse….
I may as well sign up….. Hail Britannia, long live the Queen, i’m taking the Soup !!!!!!
I feel your pain, O27. I’ve been in that post-office. Five days to cross the border!! I’d jog quicker. The danger as I see it as that the status quo is seen as the acceptable, with anything else considered pie-in-the-sky/threatening/upsetting. On Nolan’s show last night, three people in the audience identified themselves as voters for the Greens, the Alliance Party and the DUP respectively. All, you’ll note, non-nationalist parties. If someone had said ‘I voted SF’ or even ‘I voted SDLP’, there’d have been a sense of jarring the discourse.
We are back to the late sixties.
The word ‘impossible’ contains the word ‘possible’. Is it possible that politicians and commentators may start to define what they mean by the use of the word ‘country?’ As recently as last evening, Mr Nolan informed us that the DUP is the biggest party in the country. The robot in ‘Lost in Space’ might counter with,
“That does not compute.”
Sinn Féin have 50 elected representatives, Fine Gael have 50, Fianna Fáil have 44, and the DUP have 38.
If we are debating ‘bread and butter’ issues, let us engage in a rational debate in relation to existing economic models which address the positive economic, political and social benefits associated with a united people.
In the wake of elections throughout the 32 counties, certain trends are emerging. Politicians who talk about economic recovery, inward investment and the creation of ‘new’ jobs, tend not to develop statements about the type of jobs and working conditions that may or may not be available. They fail to point out that more and more private companies are not prepared to engage with Trades Unions and there is much evidence of growing industrial unrest in the country.
A driver was sent to prison recently, as a result of ‘micro-sleep’. A young mother died and a child was seriously injured in the crash. The media dealt with this issue as recently as yesterday. Doctors, nurses, long distance drivers and parents complained about the reality of having to work long hours given current contractual obligations with all the implications for health and safety on the roads.
Perhaps we ought to reflect not so much on what we leave behind but rather how we live in this country.
Excellent Jude! Been saying this for years. Why shouldn’t nationalist parties create the pan-nationalist agenda and go for it? The scaremongering of unionist politics and the vitriolic bile from certain members towards political opponents, has created enough negativity that people have turned away in fear of upturning the apple cart. The census questions are constantly changed by the powers that be in order that the the façade of unionism is upheld. The lie that northern nationalists ate assuming an northern Irish identity is spewed out in order to uphold the status quo. The media hike up the numbers of Catholics now voting for duppers because of abortion and gay marriage issues- of which there is little or no evidence, and all the while nationalist politicians continue to attempt to extend the unreciprocated hand of friendship. While this is to be commended it must also be backed by a firm policy and a unity in the belief in unification. Nationalist voters are not stupid people. We, at the end of the day, are more lethargic about voting because we see no progress in the futherance of our ultimate goal. That is what I hear from all those o speak with. Bread and butter issues, yes! But the same issues have been perrenialy discarded by unionisms ultimate goal, namely- the union. Why then must our goal be brushed aside?
Ciaran – I personally know Catholics – about a handful of acquaintances, who are voting DUP, in fact I know a catholic who signed the election papers for a DUP candidate. All done due to abortion.
But croiteir, doesn’t that just mean they are anti-abortion not anti-unification.
Rejoice in the fact that they have independent thought and are voting on policy and not because they were marched up to the top of the hill…again
Croiteir, every single Unionist online seems to personally know Catholics who are Unionist or voting Unionist, so many in fact that I’m surprised SF or the SDLP even get votes! One Unionist woman I spoke to on facebook is a fantastic bigot, I mean this girl makes Ian Paisley Jnr look like a member of the Green Party or a 1960’s hippee, she hates Catholics that much but yet BEHOLD! even she knows Catholics that vote Unionist! Amazing…..
OK, lets cut the bull and get to the point. No more than a tiny trickle of Catholics vote Unionist, statistics alone prove this, not to mention polls. Unionist politicians delude themselves into thinking Catholics vote for them but what else can they say? Of course they will say Catholics vote for them, SF says the same about Protestants too. There’s no way any substantial number of Catholics will ever vote DUP/UUP or “traditional Unionism” due to its links to the Orange Order and its blunt history (and present) of Anti-Catholicism, you don’t need Albert Einstein to work that out.
SF do need to revise their policy on abortion, they really should. If not, Conservative Catholics (you could say I’m one of them) will be voting SDLP but would I vote DUP? No. I would just give my support to Pro-Life groups in other ways. But abortion wont be coming here, there’s too much opposition to it and long may that last.
The researching of the questions you posed above could well be a topic(s) for a number of PhDs.
Probably taking several years to pull together, this might well then form the basis for concrete planning. It would be a great deed if unionists could also set out why they think staying in a union that is increasingly becoming neo liberal (right wing conservative) is a better way forward . Then both sides could be weighed against each other.
Thanks, PJD – food for thought there. Off the (shiny) top of my head, I’ve a feeling to encourage both sides to muster their pro + anti arguments would make for point-scoring rather than thoughtful fact-gathering and analysis. I’d favour the Irish-unity people devising some method of getting a clear commitment from all parties which would say they’re pro-unity. That shouldn’t be complicated. That done, either separately or together they should list some key features they’d want in such a UI. A discussion of these to arrive at a set of agreed features of a UI, followed by an agreed strategy to move things towards that goal. If the will was there, they could do it all in a year or two…
Agree broadly however, one point worth making, or, in my case, kinda repeating (I’m surprised spell check does not highlight ‘kinda’ but does ‘spellcheck’ a debate for another day).
It is this, the Belfast Broadcasting Corporation are overjoyed at being able to point to a decline in ‘nationalist’ vote in our recent election, but, how would support for hard left nationalism actually play out if the brit lord lieutenant actually were persuadex to call the referendum on re-unification?
Would all them declined hard left voters, voted for neither glas na oriste, be the types of fed up with Sinn Fein/Social Democratic and Labour Party which would rush out to spoil or, even not rush out to vote for re-unification?
I doubt that very much, the fact is, the two new People before Profit Deputies obtain their support in hardline nationalist constituencies, I should suspect therefore their supporters would, if the lord lieutenant called the referendum, rush out and support the re-unification of our amorally divided, jurisdictionally, country. As I’ve said previously, i hope both join with their party collegues on an all Ireland basis, making it the second all Ireland, please Eamon, how’s Goretti by the way if you read this? Please be what I suspect your constituents wish you to be, Irish, not ‘n’ Irish.
It’s right that you’ve “raised this hare” of a reunited Ireland, Jude . I imagine your thoughts have been in part inspired by some of our recent less than optimistic communications about the topic. There’s no doubt that if we can all maintain some sort of settled violence-free environment there should be space made to talk rationally about the consequences of uniting Ireland again, but this time under the aegis of the people of the entire island and not one ruled completely or in part by our neighbours in Britain. The conversations should start now without the paranoia and romanticism that has tended to fog rational thought up until now. The idea of a completely nationalist /republican inspired New Ireland , run entirely by a nationalist / catholic agenda, obviously scares the bejabers out of certain strains of unionism . It would scare me too! Unionism was very happy with a united Ireland a century ago ,just so long as Britain ran the whole show, so if it could be proven or parlayed that a similar united Ireland which was economically and socially sane would work in their favour then they might be convinced , given that at present they have truly got a substantial vote and a desire to keep on living in the way that they have gotten used to. (Well some of them…some have always been as poor as their poor Catholic/Nationalist neighbours) .It should be said that many “republican/nationalist/Catholics “are also very happy with the shape of their everyday lives too , at present ,and might not want a wholly radical change either.That would scare them too. There are many like myself , who want a less conservative and more secular New Ireland which keeps religion out of politics and keeps it as a private exercise and promotes fairness and free choice across society, uninhibited by racism, bigotry, homophobia and the like . No religion whether Catholic , Protestant, Hindu or Buddhist should be driving rational secular policy. That kind of thing only leads a variety of “sharia” type states within the state and will eventionally undermine rationalism.
That all said, nobody…but nobody… has ever really discussed what a New Ireland might look like. What we do already know is that it’s unlikely to ever be created successfully from the barrel of a gun, because, patently , it has been tried several times and it hasn’t really worked….even when the timing for it may just have been nearly pefect…as it was when the Civil Rights movement failed in the late 1960s. That little fact doesn’t seemed to have impressed those who are now called “dissident republicans”, so it makes you wonder why they think that this approach could ever work in a future time .To put it in a nutshell most in Norneverland are uninterested in the viability of violent revolution, if they are vaguely interested in anything at all… and certainly in the southern conservative republic the very idea of this “northern violent plague” descending on them is anathama. They didn’t want it in the 1970s , the 1980’s and the 1990s so why would they want it now?
They are basically happy enough with the status quo and have spent a century getting used to the division of Ireland and gradually tweaking their part of it to suit their own specific needs. These are the people to convince that joining with their curmudgeonly northern neighbours might be a good idea. They might want to rationally debate how it would improve their own situation financially and socially. Then too unionism in the north would have to be convinced that they might gain something by uniting the island without recriminations. It will never be united in a blaze of romantic rebel songs and bands bashing warlike lambeg drums and if that was the case it would be as divided as ever anyway….
This might just take some time ……..
“They are basically happy enough with the status quo and have spent a century getting used to the division of Ireland and gradually tweaking their part of it to suit their own specific needs. ”
That would be a good place to start, I want Britain out of Ireland more than I want reunification.
If the south have truly no interest in unification, then let the people speak and change the constitution to truly divide this island along whatever territory the people decide.
I want to know if the removal of britain is a unified country or two independent Irelands north and south. That would make less sense as we would be in competition with one another, but that is what is going to happen anyway.
The north will be taking jobs off the south over the coming years.
The thing is, I dont want to have to beg Dublin to support independence for the north. If they are happy to let us rot while times are good, and only want unity for financial benefit from an inevitable economic resurgence on the north then they can go to hell now,
I would change the constitution to make partition permanent if that was the case,
These decisions need to be made now for that reason.
I am not second class Irish and will not be treated as such by the south.
Time to choose
“Unionism was very happy with a united Ireland a century ago ,just so long as Britain ran the whole show, so if it could be proven or parlayed that a similar united Ireland which was economically and socially sane would work in their favour then they might be convinced , given that at present they have truly got a substantial vote and a desire to keep on living in the way that they have gotten used to.”
Unionism was happy when they had all the cards, all the jobs and wealth, control of education and parliament, never an Ireland of equals or a united Ireland. Hardly the same thing Harry.
Times have changed though, they may still get their vote out but all they have is a veto and have crossed over the apex of declining numbers.
I personally don’t give a shit what unionists want any more than they do what we want.
So long as we suck up to them and act as second rate, that’s all we will ever be to them.
Leopards don’t change their spots, why we think we can change them for them is a mystery.
It is time to revive the territorial dispute and make this place representative of the Irish citizens that inhabit it and to hell with what unionists or the British think about it.
Jessica I think you are a bit paranoid about the south. I am from Cavan originally but am living in Dublin over ten years now. I detest partition and share your frustration with official Ireland’s lethargic approach to the aspiration of Irish unity. However I think you have to appreciate its a two way street. Many northern nationalists have or in the past had a dismissive attitude towards southerners. Remember Southern voters gave a Belfast woman two terms as president, northerners are embraced in many strands of Irish political, social and sporting life. Allowing voting rights and political representation in Dáil Éireann which I support would be highly provocative towards unionism and may undermine the GFA.
The dynamic for change has to come from north of the border so if nationalists can’t get their vote out then there is a problem. When nationalists in the north become a majority then I think they will find the south will not reject them. Sinn Fein have failed to build a consensus for unity among nationalist parties and in fact are guilty of setting their face against the broad nationalist family. Sinn Fein alone will not achieve unity in my opinion. The economic and financial concerns have to be addressed and its up to nationalists to make the hard sell. Why can’t they put the level of detail to the public that the SNP tried to do in Scotland on independence.
Some options for dealing with a bully.
Take the punishment and do nothing
Make a stand, win, the bullying stops
Make a stand, lose, the bullying worsens
Try to humour bully. Be the jester.
Form an allegiance with a bigger bully
Form an opposition of like minded people.
The Unionists and the British are bullies.
For shafties this is also known as boolying.
Different shades of opinion if expressed in a rational and peaceful manner, should be respected and allowed to have a say in the running of a new Ireland, PaddyK. This courtesy should be extended to religious groups and people of Faith if you want a proper functioning democracy which recognizes their right to free speech and input into the framing of the nation’s laws and social policies. You seem to want them excluded in particular from getting involved in these processes but religious folk pay their taxes like anyone else else and have very reasonable cases to put with regards to such “hot button” moral, social issues as abortion and marriage redefinition. Because they hold opinions which you may vehemently oppose should not bar them from contributing to the debate surrounding the laws which effect deeply our humanity and human institutions.
gearoid – I beg to differ here with regards to the moral issues you are talking about – though i suppose it won’t make much difference.
In my opinion, in an inclusive society, the laws of any land should reflect the wishes of everybody,because otherwise it is a tyranny of the majority.
Obviously I am not referring to any sort of violent terrorist activities – just the right to freedom of speech and freedom of thought.
Consequently, should even 1 woman want an abortion, or just 1 gay want a marriage, or 1 conscientious objector refuse to go to war in time of conscription, then that should be permitted.
99.9% of the population may never, ever, avail of such laws because they object to/disagree with them but the laws should be in place for the 0.1% that will need them and use them.
i suggest the pro-choice and gay lobbies constitute a lot more than 0.1% of the irish population.
Time for SF and the SDLP to stop being so nice to the Unionists and their “culture” and start standing up for the people who elected them.
Unionists and the DUP in particular sense weakness and have therefore no respect for any of the Nationalist parties. They respect and fear strength and resolution.
Unionists/Loyalists can disparage the hunger strikes, the Irish language, the pope and refuse to acknowledge key events in Irish history such as the Easter rising without fear of censure from Nationalist politicians, yet they get and receive respect from those same Nationalist politicians when it comes to the monarchy, Remembrance Sunday “Ulster Scots” etc.
Nationalism as a political species has to wake up to the fact that for many young people it is becoming an irrelevance. Do SF/SDLP want to be the people who lost a generation to the cause of Irish unity?
surely voting brexit is a start,it will lead to infighting in the uk scotland wales,i cant understand irishmen helping the torys out.the north will be brought back in anyway in a united ireland if brexits that bad it will push a majority which the catholics will be shortly to want back in.
“surely voting brexit is a start”
I would be very disappointed if you voted in a british referendum billy.
We should let them make their owns minds up and not interfere. The south are only interested as it could threaten their pockets and would change the relationship they would be forced to have with the north.
Personally, I believe Britain would benefit more from leaving and Europe could even collapse economically if they try to take Britain on economically. But it is none of my business and a choice they will have to make themselves.
It is very wrong for anyone who wants Irish independence to vote either way or participate in their decision.
billy – if you and many other people in NI vote brexit and brexit wins, NI will be locked into an isolated UK.
Shouldn’t we irish be looking to take our place among the nations of Europe?
Did you ever hear of Robert Emmet and his speech from the dock?
“When my country takes her place among the nations of the earth, then and not till then, let my epitaph be written”.
Jude
What is stopping the pro unfication parties convening such meetings?
The GFA was nearly 20 years ago.Why has SF as the most proactive agent for unification not proposed this before?
I don’t suppose the other parties are going to be hugely interested as they seem content to let things take their course. It will be up to SF take the initiative
It is tricky for the shinners as they do need to address the bread and butter issues, cliche though it is, but they are not really in the business of making Northern Ireland work so they have a balancing act to perform .
They need to get into the business of making Northern Ireland work – although I suspect then realized that a while ago.
For a UI to happen then has to be 2 referendums (referenda?) north and south of border. In the south who in their right mind would vote to take an an economic basketcase? Who in their right mind would vote to take on NI if it is in such disarray? Simple answer: no one.
A fully functioning, successful Northern Ireland of equals, one that both the UK and RoI would want to have, is the best solution all round. in them mean time NI gets to be the best it can be and the people benefit – no brainer.
a fully functioning northern ireland of equals…….equality isnt in their dna,as for who would take on an economic basket case do you think the brits just sail away when the time comes.they havent even paid for the famine yet.
Morpheus
You may be right but it seems to me that is a problem.
Making NI work is not only unpalatable to some SF supporters it could also be counter-productive. Yes it might make us more appealing to voters in the South, but it could also persuade the undecided here in the North to vote to stay where they are.
How do SF square that circle?
That’s the risk that has to be taken giordanobruno. But it’s win-win all around
When a spaceship docks with the international space station they equalize the pressure on both sides of the door before opening it otherwise there would be a disaster…just ask Bruce Willis. Same principle applies here – the pressure on both sides of the border needs to be equalized before the door is opened (if we want to open it) to help avoid disaster. An successful country on one side of the door and a baskecase on the other is not equalized – disaster. Two successful, normal countries on both sides of the door – much easier.
Personally I would like us to be in a position whereby we are beating both GB and RoI off with a big stick and we can make the decision to stay or go from a position of strength rather than who we can sponge the most off.
How hard-line SF supporters would like it matters not a jot to me but as they come in from the extreme (taking over the ground held by the SDLP) their support base won’t be hard-line.
“Personally I would like us to be in a position whereby we are beating both GB and RoI off with a big stick and we can make the decision to stay or go from a position of strength rather than who we can sponge the most off.
How hard-line SF supporters would like it matters not a jot to me but as they come in from the extreme (taking over the ground held by the SDLP) their support base won’t be hard-line.”
You are a unionists wet dream Morpheus.
All of Ireland would benefit economically from unification. Is anyone saying otherwise?
The issue for me is not economy, it is as an Irish citizen being cast aside by my own government in my own country and being considered lesser Irish or worse, British by my own people.
No vote, no rights, an after thought. This has to change.
As for sponging, how more insulting are you going to go Morpheus?
I have never been unemployed a single day in my life. I run multiple businesses and work with new businesses all the time so can see the economy growing and who is growing it.
We are not spongers, the public sector is bloated and was done so deliberately to allow Britain operate militarily here with relative economic stability during the conflict.
It is being remedied but would do so quicker opening up the north south economy which would grow business and jobs here. The two currencies is a pain and dual taxes and employment legislation are slowing growth in the north especially.
Time to wise up and get off our knees Morpheus.
We are equal Irish citizens, start acting like it.
If NI is successful why leave it?
Off the top of my head, to reunite Ireland?
Why on earth would any republican want to inflict a hostile, economically challenged NI onto the people of RoI? Why would anyone who loves Ireland want her to be put under pressure like that? Surely the overall objective it to make the processed as pain-free for all involved?
Think about it, no one will vote to take on NI in it’s current form. What’s the best thing to do? Make NI an attractive option to take on. It’s blatantly obvious to me.
“Why on earth would any republican want to inflict a hostile, economically challenged NI onto the people of RoI?”
That’s a cop out Morpheus, no one is expecting hardship to be put on anyone. That is brit scaremongering only same tactics they used to frighten the scots.
There is no time line on unification but it would take at least 5 years and more likely 15 to complete.
Dont think anyone in the north will buy that cop out bullshit if the south even think of using that as an excuse.
We are not second class irish, we are irish citizens same as any one in Dublin, Kerry or Cork.
It wont wash, it certainly doesn’t with me
“The GFA was nearly 20 years ago.Why has SF as the most proactive agent for unification not proposed this before?”
I would say gio, that they are looking beyond independence and making sure they will not only achieve independence but will also be in power to influence the new Ireland that is produced. That will involve economic growth and reconciliation with unionists and Britain whatever form it may be in by then.
The responsibility for unity is not Sinn Feins alone and to make themselves purely the catalyst risks losing the longer term strategy of building an Ireland of equals.
The next 5 years is about reconciliation or sucking up to unionism. I am sad to say I do not have the stomach for that and it will be a humiliating and sided thankless affair but probably is the right thing to do long term and in the bigger picture. Young people in unionist areas will not continue their peers resentment towards irish unity this way I suppose.
I just don’t have their patience or tolerance for it.
Curiouser and curiouser it’s getting, all the same, Esteemed Blogmeister, just how vast a gap there can be between the world-views of two former classmates in the same small schoolroom.
Coincidentally, one’s inner Mr. Quelch got a sharpish reminder of just how vast a gap that can be this very morning when two essays under the title ‘Colour Coding’ landed on one’s desk. One, of course, was your own bulletin today, EB. The other came typed on the august headed paper of (gulp) The Unionist Times.
After dilligently examining both essays, in the manner which has become synonymous with one’s inner Grey Eminence of Greyfriars – the manner dispassionate – one had no hesitation marking one essay A +. Sadly, the other essay merited only, after much misgivings, F-.
In the grand tradition of transcendental impartiality, one will allow one’s last remaining reader to adjudge which essay merited which marking.
As your bulletin, EB, is already available in this parish , one will concentrate on the other essay, the essay of Eamonn McCann (for it is he !). As his essay embodies the arse over elbow world view of the PBP’s tannoy- posterboy, one will start reading there at the next to bottom line. Just for the craic, like.
-It is not true that the people of the North are indelibly colour-coded orange and green here. In this, as in all, there’s never a wrong time to argue for a different way of seeing the world, beginning with our own little patch of the world.
By which, the one with a different way of seeing the world, means, Londonderry, lovely Londonderry on the banks of the Foyle. One deduces this is the pitch, oops, patch he has in mind from having red, oops, read any amount as the essayist’s previous essays.
For on his Night of Victory (NoV) the novice victor could not wait to get in a mention of his beloved ,erm, Candystripes. That is the soccer, oops, football team which plays out of the Brandywell on Foyleside. If that is Eamonn the Egalitarian’s chapel of ease, then the Mother Church of Emir Eamonn is, indubitably, the Neo-Gothic Cathedral known of late as the Emirates Stadium on Thameside.
Curious, all the same, how even the most devout of professional agno/ atheists , always seem to have an inner religious fan frantically trying, in this instance, to get out of a red gansey. Their religion, of course, being one the greatest threats facing mankind, second only to Global Warming itself:
-The Premier (sic) League of Ye Olde Merrie Engerland.
If one is permitted to be grandiose enough to sound a parochial warning on this particularly invidious form of Global Norming, one would be only too glad to do so. In the shape of an anecdote, which – oddly enough – combines both centres of excellence of McCann’s Colourless Cosmos – the Premier League and its sister league, albeit 40 leagues under, the League of Ireland.
One afternoon, some years ago during a most pleasant bubblegum-free sojourn in Singapore, The Perkin found himself parking his complacent toin / arse in his favourite spot of spots –a seat by the river outside the Penny Black pub, downing a cool pint of Speckled Hen.
The Penny Black was the pub on Boat Quay most contagious to the Wall Street of Singapore, a mere bounced cheque away, where one could keep up with all the latest wind-breaking news on the financial front from Bloomberg TV. Widescreens of which had been strategically positioned on the walls as one descended and three minutes later ascending the linking pedestrian underpass.
It was this same underpass which the legendary Nick Leeson used to traverse each lunch time even as he plotted the downfall (c.f. the law of unintended consequences) of Barings Bank, traditional counter of the Hausfraus’s hard earned gollygosh.
It was the very identical seat upon which Old Nick used to sit that The Perkin used to raise his cool pint of Speckled Hen in his financial hero’s honour. (That’s when it was neither popular or even, People Before Profitable).
Sadly, it was all down hill after that for the Fiddler on the Hoof once he had left the bank of Elizardbeth in the, erm, red.
After a spell on the undeserved lam, he ended up in chokey before finally fetching up in – oh, horror ! – treasurer of Galway Utd, in the League of Ireland. A club which has had many a fascinating football tussle with – as Egalitarian Eamonn will testify – his beloved Candystripes. And which football club on the Wild Atlantic Way has as its President for Life (!), one (gasp) Micheal D. Higgins, socialist.
Rebooting one’s complacent buttocks on the riverside seat lately vacated by the Homeric hedge funder, on the afternoon in question, The Perkin witnessed a scam which was even, erm, Leeson streets ahead of anything Old Nick himself could have dreamed up.
Picture the scene: down the river, upon one bank of which stands a bronze statue of Sir Stamford Raffles with his back to the river, and on the other, the legendary godowns of Boat Quay, slowly drifted a pleasure craft bedecked in the colours (red!) of (gasp) Liverpool FC . On board were the playing squad of same club with their extended family , including, wags, sight gags, jet lags, duffel bags of swag, red flags, and no snags.
Thousands of their delirious, trans-global l fans waved and cheered from the riverbanks and the Banks of the river alike, which gestures of devout adulation were duly acknowledged by the pleasure crafty passengers. The boat trip past Boat Quay hadn’t been planned in the original itinerary for the team which have won (in fairness, going f.) more pockets, wallets and hearts than trophies in recent memory.
They were in Singapore for their now annual Pre-Season Tour-a-loo of the Orient and as the National Stadium had sold out (50,000 plus) for their exhibition game against the local national team, this river cruise was an occasion to give the disappointed Kop Faithful an eye-full of a consolation prize. Call the pleasure craft a, erm, Kopmobile.
Eh?
Actually, there were snags, two at least. During the weeks prior to the visit of the Merseysider Millionaires , two star faces alone dominated the posters on poles, pubwalls and pagodas alike : Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard.
Alas.
Neither played. In fact, when these posters were being printed it was known that neither would play. Torres being a suffererer of a long term injury, while the insufferable Gerrard’s date with a local magistrate in Liverpool on a charge of practising Denistry Toxteth-style without a licence clashed with the Singapore Pilgrimage.
In fact, the posters were lying through their teeth. Less posters, more imposters. Little wonder then that the bronze statue of Sir Stamford Raffles kept his back to the river. But, then, with a name like that, he was probably a Chelsea fan.
Arsenal FC subsequently played a pre-season game in Singapore but, of course,ni ga a ra/ ca va sans dire, as they are the sanctified club to which Eamonn the Emir owes such a passionate allegiance there can be no suggestion of skullduggery during their pilgrimage . Blimey, none whatsoever.
Seeing that he is such an opponent (staunch) of the Mass Movement of Mega Moola in the shape of Beggar My Neighour Behemoths of the Corporate World, that sorta thingy. Having gone, erm, gunning for them many a time and oft in the stilly nights and stillier days of the past.
Not only does Arsenal FC play under the patronage of (gasp) Our Lady of Perpetual Soccer but its bainisteoir / manager was as recently as the last day of last year McCannonised as the Patron Saint of Common Decency.
Sadly, with a great show of selfless, erm, austerity Emir Eamonn the Egarlitarian whispered Adios Amigos/Amigas in his essay. Or, as they were once wont to say to the Fat Owl of the Remove in Greyfriars:
-The postal order will no longer be arriving from the Pater.
The Man who is Thursday winsomely announced his morphing into The Man who was Thursday of The Unionist Times with these poignant words:
-And that’s that. This new job is full time. I am deeply grateful to those at the newspaper with whom I have worked and who responded only with a sign when I’d phone 10 minutes after delivering copy asking for a word to be changed. Patience of saints.
Curious, all the same, how the s-word crops up with such regularity in the vocab of even the most devout of professional pooh-paahers.
“On board were the playing squad of same club with their extended family , including, wags, sight gags, jet lags, duffel bags of swag, red flags, and no snags” Could the Litany to Our Lady itself attain such firecracker heights? I asks you and I leaves it with you, Perkin…
here’s a lesson from Scotland and a few suggestions about how to start the process of stepping firmly towards re-unification.
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/05/03/northern-ireland-and-the-end-of-british-politics/
A propos of the Secretary of state’s calling a border poll, which posters mentioned above, she says conditions are not even close to being met. Apparently criteria are various circumstances and all the relevant facts which will be taken into account .
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/northern-ireland-news/villiers-conditions-for-border-poll-not-even-close-to-being-met-1-7375902#ixzz48SPsvpzX
“here’s a lesson from Scotland”
I wouldn’t heed any lessons from Scotland who had the opportunity and bottled it.
They wont get another chance now, they have reignited unionism in Scotland and brought about division even growing the tories again in Scotland. Well done
Yeah, read that Ben. As always the situation is as clear as mud.
“the conditions for calling such a referendum are not even close to being met.”
So we can rule out nationalist parties having 37% at Stormont being enough. What is the magic number though? 45%? 51%? What else was taken onto consideration I wonder?
Treat the people like mushrooms…
“The usual talk about heightening community tensions can be safely dismissed as bluster”
The parties, aka DUP/UUP, who say talking about Irish Unity will “raise tensions” are the very same parties that support an illegal Loyalist camp decked out in Loyalist/Para/SAS flags at a sectarian interface and who support Orange demands of parading through or by Catholic areas. We need to talk MORE about Irish Unity and not less.
Many times on the Nolan show Stephen Nolan or his callers asked “What are the benefits of a United Ireland?” and not once have I heard SF or any other republican give a straight answer, they usually dodge the question. I always get embarrassed when this happens because it shows those republicans haven’t even researched the benefits. Even me, who isn’t apart of a political party and haven’t the means/funds to conduct a study into Irish Unity could easily point out the benefits of Irish Unity.
The combined nationalist vote dropped 5%, not 50%, and no nationalist seats were lost to Unionists but to left wing nationalist type parties. Unionism didn’t make any gains but have stayed stagnant. In 1992 SF took big losses, they lost their only West Belfast MP and didn’t have a single TD but yet just 5 years later they retook West Belfast and even took Mid Ulster from the DUP and have held it ever since. Is it likely the same will happen again at the next General/Assembly elections? Judging by the demographic predictions: Yes
PS: After listening to Jude and others on the Nolan TV Show last night, I’ve been won over to compulsory voting, especially since Australia has a turnout of 97% at elections due to compulsory voting. Like the plastic bag tax, I think compulsory voting to be successful here. I can see SF/SDLP supporting it but will political Unionism? I doubt it.
PSS: the man in the audience said he voted DUP to “keep SF out”……but yet the DUP sustain SF in government……remember what I said about humans being very irrational? there’s a perfect example.
Never mind them Ryan, what does it mean to you?
I had to walk under a union flag going into work every day for 11 years.
I was on garvsghy road when the british police were batoning people off it to let orange men walk where they aren’t wanted.
Living under british rule sickens me to my stomach but younger people will hardly feel the same way having had different experiences growing up.
An independent Ireland, free of british rule means more to me than any benefit of kind any government could bestow. The freedom to belong to a nation of our own, to be part of something unique and have our place among the nations of the world. Something many on this island take for granted.
Money has no part to play in it. Sure, unity has economic benefits and people pulling together as Germany have shown will earn its just rewards, and yes we should consider the economic benefits, the type of health, education, welfare support we wish to have, but these are not and should not be the main reasons for unity and if it truly is the only reason then we should not bother.
A country divided, a people divided is soul destroying. Our nation will remain unfulfilled until it is reunited. Some need reminding of this more than others, but eventually, the people of this nation will rise up again and this country will be united.
Jessica, a United Ireland does mean a lot to me, an Independent Ireland definitely meant a lot to my great grandfather who was in the GPO in Easter 1916. I never knew the man, who died in 1960 but apparently he was very academic, was a Teacher and his brother was a Catholic Monk but he obviously felt very strongly about British rule in Ireland to go out of his way and risk his life to end it. (Another of my great grandfathers died in WW1, he was a Sargent. I don’t know which Battle he died in).
I was born in 1990, so thankfully I missed most of the troubles but I remember the likes of Drumcree and Holycross in 2001. The only time I can ever remember going into a building with a Union flag on top was on a school trip to Belfast City Hall and I remember the City Hall was distinctly British, it was obvious who the City Hall belonged to and who it didn’t belong to, I even remember our teachers commenting about the amount of British emblems inside, something which hasn’t changed despite Nationalists being the largest group on the council. Again, this inaction from Nationalism to get equality implemented and SHOWN to be implemented has made many voters stay at home on polling day.
Economics is extremely important though Jessica. I ensure you if you offered a million pound to every single hard core Unionist/Nationalist to give up their politics, 99% of them would ditch their politics in a split second, no questions asked. That’s just humans being human. Resources, survival and prosperity is far more important to the vast majority of people than Patriotism. I’m not just saying that about Irish or British Patriotism but ALL kinds of Patriotism.
But there is an economic argument for a United Ireland, a big one, one that SF/SDLP seem to have done very little research into, never mind advocate. A Canadian University just recently did a study and said Irish GDP would increase by 30 Billion in the first 8 years of Irish Unity, that’s roughly a 10-12% increase in GDP, that’s massive growth. This year alone the South’s economy is predicted to grow by 6-7%. Compare that to Britain’s economy which is due to grow by 1-2% or the North’s which is due to grow by below 1% or 0.5%.
Then there’s the money that would be saved by Irish Unity. Integrating services North and South would save billions, having one administration on this island instead of two would again save even more billions. If the North were to get the same level of FDI, Foreign Direct Investment, as the South then that would bring many good quality jobs into the North instead of the kind of jobs we’re getting now which are short term, low paying Call Centre jobs. Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Yahoo, etc all have major HQ’s in the South. Facebook and Apple have their European and African HQ’s in Ireland due to the low tax rate, business friendly environment, high quality educated students and the Geographic placement of Ireland in the World. The Shanghai Times, a top newspaper in China said that Ireland was “The Gateway to Europe” for investment and doing business.
Theres one issue here though. The North’s economy is heavily, heavily depended on the public sector. The North’s economy is basically Sovietized, thousands of jobs depend upon the state and paid for out of the pocket of the English tax payer, who are largely ignorant of this and wouldn’t be happy if they did know. The reason why this has happened is due to the neglect of the North by Westminster, they couldn’t be bothered with the North or its economy so they just threw in public jobs instead of attracting decent, high quality private sector jobs for people here. Its this policy that has made the North’s economy a cesspit because public sector jobs do NOT promote growth, its a DRAIN to growth. Lawyers, Doctors, Council workers, etc and all other jobs that are on the payroll of the state here do not produce anything, they take from the economy, not give. So right now we need to shrink the public sector here in the North and grow the private sector so that Irish Unity would happen more smoothly because its simply not sustainable.
Why is a ‘united Ireland’ so important to you? Why does it matter so much more so than other issues? What huge difference would it make to you?
we just want our country back,is that simple enough for you.
Well that’s what we’re about to find out MT, no need to fear the debate
That’s a very easy question MT: because I want my country reunited and independent of a foreign neighbouring state lol
“Why does it matter so much more so than other issues?”
It matters so much because if Irish Unity occurred it would begin a process of solving so many issues, especially in our society. Northern Ireland has been a failure, its been a disaster to Ireland as a whole, its basically ensured that sectarianism has thrived, hence why its called the “Sectarian State”. Many people even when it was first suggested knew it would be a disaster but it was created to appease just 20% of Irelands then population at the expense of 80%.
“What huge difference would it make to you?”
A big difference, according to the statistics. The UK is the most unequal country in Europe, the gap between rich and poor is widening. The Republic has ranked higher for Quality of Life than the UK for years, in 2005 the South was ranked as having the best Quality of Life in the World. In Education, in Maths, Reading and literacy the Republic ranks higher than the UK. The South’s economy is predicted to grow by 6-7% this year, whilst the UK’s will be around 1-2%.
But really what I want is to create a new Ireland. No one is suggesting a United Ireland will be a utopia with rivers of milk and honey but it will be much better than what we have now: a society stuck in sectarianism, ignored by Britain as a sectarian backwater and has an economy that is a cesspit, where the only quality jobs being attracted (then leave because the grants dry up) are call centre jobs…..
What intrigues me is why anyone would want Northern Ireland to limp on! Its obviously unworkable.
But Ryan, if it means so much to have a united Ireland then why are so many of you hell bent on embracing the path of proven failure? e.g. tricolours, ‘patriot dead’ and all that malarkey?
If youse were to ditch that and adopt a nationalism-free approach to re-unification then unionism would be in a great deal of trouble very very quickly.
If I want something then it’s up to me to do what’s necessary to obtain it; If I want to pass exams then I have to study, if I want to be fit then I have to exercise, if I want to appear trim and tidy then I have to look after my appearance etc etc.
Same applies for a united Ireland, if there are things that you could be doing better then why not do them? If there are things that are off-putting to a key element of the electorate then why hold on to those things?
It’s political madness.
When you look at it on paper nationalism has had nearly 100 years to re-unite the land. It’s advantages include:
a disinterested British government, global sympathy, numerical supremacy, an annually weakening political opposition.
Perhaps it’s time for a change of tact?
Perhaps nationalism is not a suitable vehicle for re-unification?
And looking at the progress so far that appears to be the case. So if it doesn’t work then why not ditch it?
Youse could have a united Ireland by 2025 if you just made a few common sense changes but I suspect that nationalists are just as prone to the irrational thoughts that unionists exhibit e.g. where a unionist might shout ‘no surrender!’ at any basic compromise a nationalist seems equally blinkered with the response ‘why should we pander to a minority?!’ (the answer being “um, because you’ll win?”)
Anyhow, northerners are very similar regardless of their political strips and the most obvious characteristics of northerners is the inability to listen, admit when they’re wrong and to stubbornly cling to things that obviously don’t work.
So excuse me as I have to go now and explain to a dog why it shouldn’t bark.
“But Ryan, if it means so much to have a united Ireland then why are so many of you hell bent on embracing the path of proven failure? e.g. tricolours, ‘patriot dead’ and all that malarkey?”
Am Ghob, that’s just one particular brand of nationalism. There’s many nationalists who devoutly support Irish Unity but don’t support the PIRA or any paramilitary, the same way there’s many Unionists who devoutly support the Union but don’t support any paramilitary or the DUP or UUP.
If the likes of SF ditched, in your words “all that malarkey”, then that would be committing political suicide because their supporters want and endorse all that “malarkey”. I see the point your trying to make, I can see why all this would be off putting to Protestants but to ditch that would be destroying a massive chunk of your support base.
Its the same with the DUP, I have often wondered why the DUP don’t ditch the Protestant fundamentalist branch of their membership, reach out to Catholics and atone for past wrongs (yes, I know the same could be said of SF) but the reality is if the DUP did this it would be extremely risky and it would definitely lose them a big chunk of their supporters.
Politics here doesn’t function like it does in the USA, Britain, France, etc its more akin to Iraq, with its sectarian factions, hence why we call Northern Ireland the “Sectarian State”. That’s why we don’t often have reaching out between parties. We seen very recently Martin McGuinness doing a lot of reaching out to Unionists, meeting Queen Elizabeth II, etc. This was very risky and I’m sure it did lose SF votes from nationalists. Peter Robinson made a few comments about reaching out to Catholics but it didn’t materialize, despite Peter Robinson going into the heart of West Belfast and being treated respectfully by local people, bearing in mind Robbo’s history, his support of the UDA, creating Ulster Resistance, etc. Can you imagine what would happen to Martin McGuinness in the heart of East Belfast?…..
We often hear “What are the benefits of a United Ireland?” but what are the benefits of staying in the Union? We have been in it for a very long time and I certainly don’t see many benefits here….
“It matters so much because if Irish Unity occurred it would begin a process of solving so many issues, especially in our society.”
What issues and how do you know it would begin a process of solving them? Sounds very naive.
“A big difference, according to the statistics. The UK is the most unequal country in Europe, the gap between rich and poor is widening. The Republic has ranked higher for Quality of Life than the UK for years, in 2005 the South was ranked as having the best Quality of Life in the World. In Education, in Maths, Reading and literacy the Republic ranks higher than the UK. The South’s economy is predicted to grow by 6-7% this year, whilst the UK’s will be around 1-2%.”
But that’s in the context of the 26 counties only. And the UK has a bigger and more successful economy. In a ‘united Ireland’ scenario the economy would be greatly weakened by the cost of taking on NI. In NI we have lower levels of taxation and better public services.
But in reality the two countries are broadly similar with a very similar standard of living.
“But really what I want is to create a new Ireland. No one is suggesting a United Ireland will be a utopia with rivers of milk and honey but it will be much better than what we have now”
How do you know?
“a society stuck in sectarianism, ignored by Britain as a sectarian backwater and has an economy that is a cesspit, where the only quality jobs being attracted (then leave because the grants dry up) are call centre jobs…..”
Why do you think sectarianism would end in a ‘united Ireland’. The economy isn’t a cesspit. We have lower unemployment than the South, for example. And the only quality jobs being created aren’t call centre jobs. In fact professional services is the main area of job growth.
“What intrigues me is why anyone would want Northern Ireland to limp on! Its obviously unworkable.”
It works fine for me and most people. I have a nice life with many benefits, not least an excellent free health service.
I think Nationalists should take heart. In general terms Nationalist voters reward their political representatives for conciliatory gestures towards their unionist neighbours, whereas unionist voters punish their representatives for the merest hint of compromise. Nationslism should continue to do the right thing in the face of continued repulsion. At the very least there is the moral victory.
I will tell you one thing that FG and FF should bear in mind in the event of unification.
It will be highly unlikely they will get any unionist votes what with their irish names and history, if they continue to snub and ignore the wishes of the irish citizens in the north, it wont fare well for their future if very few of 1/2 million additional votes never go their way.
They should continue the snubs and insults at their peril.
It wont be forgotten I can assure them. I have never felt such frustration in the north in all my days, nationalism is through with Stormont, the pressure will grow on Dublin to wake up.
They wont be able to ignore it forever.
Dr C
If we’re going to come clean then perhaps it’s time to examine ‘nationalism’ vs ‘re-unificationism’?
The SNP has went from being a party that appealed only to a small group of Scots to now going across the board. It looks like Independence Voting Day II will result in Scottish independence.
So, how could Irish re-unificationists learn from this?
SF are seen as the bogey man and are used as a fear stick to beat the unionists into voting. Why is this? Have you been given any clues by your unionist commentators on here as to why this may be?
I don’t actually see why this project is proving so difficult:
You just have to convince people that a united Ireland is a good idea (and it is) and that it won’t be stashed with things that people will be afraid of or hate.
A modern day United Irishmen type party is what’s needed, preferably one staffed with some Protestants (for the media), economists and a few accountants.
No tricolours, ‘volunteers’, commemorations or nationalism, just an unstoppable re-unification machine.
“SF are seen as the bogey man and are used as a fear stick to beat the unionists into voting. Why is this? Have you been given any clues by your unionist commentators on here as to why this may be?”
That is exactly what should not happen AG.
I am not nationalist or republican and am now despising those terms, I am just an Irish citizen and I expect to be treated as such by both the Irish and British governments as was outlined in the GFA.
Unionists fighting the spirit of the GFA is why they portray SF as the bogey man and promote hatred of the tricolour which they burn annually like KKK supporters would.
That is not my concern at all. Burn away. But the tricolour is the flag of my country and my nation and sooner or later unionism will have to come to terms with that. We will not give up our flag for a bunch of bigots who’s leaders are happy to insult us and our identity.
How are you going to convince us otherwise?
Insulting us certainly isn’t working let me tell you.
As for commemorations, it is insulting to suggest we forget our patriot dead. I would never suggest loyalists to do so either. Tolerance is way forward, not denial.
Well, there you go then, if you’re not willing to do what’s necessary for a united Ireland e.g. adopt an SNP style approach then you can’t complain about not having a united Ireland, it’s like opposing exercising & a sensible diet and then complaining about being overweight or opposing studying and then complaining about poor exam results.
“Well, there you go then, if you’re not willing to do what’s necessary for a united Ireland e.g. adopt an SNP style approach then you can’t complain about not having a united Ireland, it’s like opposing exercising & a sensible diet and then complaining about being overweight or opposing studying and then complaining about poor exam results.”
What is necessary for a united Ireland is the people of Ireland to support it. I want to know now where Dublin stand on this as it may or may not be achievable.
Then I will decide whether or not I still want a united Ireland or prefer to look at an alternative way of getting Britain out of here which is more important to me than forced re-unification.
If the south don’t want us, perhaps a joint Ireland Scotland venture might be a viable alternative.
I am sick playing second fiddle to London and Dublin AG.
Was the Sinn Fein engagement in the initial Peace Process not predicated on the coming together of Nationalism throughout the Island with the help of Irish America to put pressure on the British in relation to moving the constitutional issue on. ? How did that go for the Sinners.
I find stories like this bizarre:
http://sluggerotoole.com/2016/05/12/constitutional-uncoupling-or-the-decline-in-support-for-nationalist-parties-amongst-the-catholic-community-of-northern-ireland/#disqus_thread
I assume that the interviewees who were asked if they want a UI or not were given a full breakdown of what a UI entails? They were able to give an informed opinion, right?
Otherwise they just asked 1000+ people to give on opinion on something they know nothing about. As I said above would Coke Cola 1000+ people on their new brand of drink – and asking them to drink it forever – without letting them know anything about it.
I’ll say again WE NEED AN INFORMED ELECTORATE MAKING AN INFORMED DECISION
Why write pieces like this? To provide comfort unionists? To demoralize nationalists? I find it really really bizarre
“How did that go for the Sinners.”
Are you suggesting the party is appropriately named Boland?
Not sure why I can’t respond to any of your posts Jessica but there were too many clangers in there not to respond so I’ll put my response down here.
I can very much assure you that I am not anyone’s “wet dream” – both the UK and Ireland have been very, very good to me yet I do not describe myself as either nationalist or unionist. I am however happy in the knowledge that if the people of Ireland want a united Ireland then it is within their grasp and that both governments have signed up to implement the will of the majority.
I am 100% behind an informed electorate making an informed decision. If, after all the facts have been put on the table the people of Ireland say “Yip, that’s for me and my family” then great. If they say say “nope, that’s not for me and my family” then that is fine with me too. I have come to terms with the fact that the people of Ireland might not want it – have you?
As for being cast aside by the Irish Government then I agree, where have they been for 100 years? When FF/FG do come north of the border I think they will be greeted with the question “…and where the feck have you been, eh?”
As for sponging then I am pretty sure that you knew I was talking about NI as a state and the £10b per year subvention so not sure why you went on the “I run multiple businesses” spiel. I want NI to require 0 subvention, be self sufficient and reliant on no one so when the border poll comes economics isn’t a big factor in the decision making process.
Being someone who lives/works in the UK and RoI then trust me I know about the pains of dual currencies and tax systems.
Let me reassure you that I am very much not on my knees in any sense of the words 😉
Onto the ‘cop out’ BS in a different post above then if the successful poll was tomorrow and NI was subsumed into the RoI can you give me any assurance that the people of Ireland won’t be worse off as a result? What if the poll was in 5, 15 or 50 years? If so, back it up with verifiable facts and I’ll take it on board. If not, well…
I say again, if you (a generic ‘you’) love Ireland why would you want to inflict (and I chose that word carefully) NI in it’s current state onto i? So much has to be done to make it better so why don’t we get on with doing that rather than bitchin’ about the GFA – the only show in town
“I can very much assure you that I am not anyone’s “wet dream” – both the UK and Ireland have been very, very good to me yet I do not describe myself as either nationalist or unionist.”
Neither do I, I am Irish only, clearly you are undecided or indifferent hence my comment.
“I am 100% behind an informed electorate making an informed decision. If, after all the facts have been put on the table the people of Ireland say “Yip, that’s for me and my family” then great. If they say say “nope, that’s not for me and my family” then that is fine with me too. I have come to terms with the fact that the people of Ireland might not want it – have you?”
Same here, it has to be taken seriously and publically and the decision final. The southern state is not even interested in determining and delivering that information and that is what is wrong.
“As for being cast aside by the Irish Government then I agree, where have they been for 100 years? When FF/FG do come north of the border I think they will be greeted with the question “…and where the feck have you been, eh?””
No, the south were very supportive of the north well into the conflict. Charlie Haughey was our Taoiseach, who after him can say the same?
“As for sponging then I am pretty sure that you knew I was talking about NI as a state and the £10b per year subvention so not sure why you went on the “I run multiple businesses” spiel”
The £10b per year subvention isnt sponging and is mostly to pay for the bloated public sector. It is insulting to even hint we are spongers for a situation imposed upon us that the minutae financial details of are kept from us. Do you really know what you are talking about in this regard as you are representing the north very badly and inaccurately? Again a unionists wet dream you are.
“Being someone who lives/works in the UK and RoI then trust me I know about the pains of dual currencies and tax systems.”
Then imagine what would happen if the north was opened up to the greater part of our on country where the greater opportunities are.
“Let me reassure you that I am very much not on my knees in any sense of the words ;)”
Good for you, but don’t expect the Irish citizens in the north to be on theirs either. We are through being second rate Irish.
Time to choose
“Onto the ‘cop out’ BS in a different post above then if the successful poll was tomorrow and NI was subsumed into the RoI can you give me any assurance that the people of Ireland won’t be worse off as a result? What if the poll was in 5, 15 or 50 years? If so, back it up with verifiable facts and I’ll take it on board. If not, well…”
No I cant. If that is all that is important to you, then screw a united Ireland. That is exactly what I am saying just so you are clear.
Can you give assurance that a growing economy in the north in time would not eclipse that of the south and that the people of Ireland won’t be worse off as a result of the north rejecting unification later on the same grounds leaving two competing economies on this small island?
“I say again, if you (a generic ‘you’) love Ireland why would you want to inflict (and I chose that word carefully) NI in it’s current state onto i? So much has to be done to make it better so why don’t we get on with doing that rather than bitchin’ about the GFA – the only show in town”
I love my country, not selfish individuals within it?
You seem quite prepared for our country to treat some of its citizens a lot worse than others. Would you agree?
The GFA is failing the Irish citizens in the north, if we have driven one another so far apart those in the south cant see beyond your pockets to give a damn, then as I said, screw unification.
Sweet baby Jeebas, where to start with that….?
To sum up – you are Irish although you feel second rate Irish – whatever that means – you don’t like the GFA, you think the Irish north of the border have been abandoned, you think no one south of the border is showing signs of wanting a UI, you want the British out of Ireland as your #1 priority but aren’t sure if you want a united Ireland…anything else?
Why do you feel second rate Irish? Who makes you feel second rate Irish? Please don’t tell me that neanderthals like Gregory Campbell and Sammy Wilson dictate your Irishness. What makes you different to say, someone from Dublin or Donegal? Who you pay your taxes to? What currency you use? Which passport you have? What would need to happen to make you feel first rate Irish?
“You seem quite prepared for our country to treat some of its citizens a lot worse than others. Would you agree?”
Abso-fecking-lutely not and I have no idea where you got that from.
But anyway Jessica, I gotta catch a flight…you keep moaning and moaning and we’ll see how far that takes us down the UI path.
(BTW, in regards to this second rate Irish thing, have you never been told that no one can make you feel inferior without your permission?)
“What makes you different to say, someone from Dublin or Donegal?”
They have representation in the Irish parliament and therefore are afforded the respect given to those with the power to elect political representatives out of a job.
Irish citizens in the north do not and are therefore not given any real consideration and brushed off at a whim.
I am very well aware that I am Irish having been born and lived all my life in Ireland, but I am also an Irish citizen that carries an Irish passport. The Irish constitution claims to represent all of the Irish citizens on this island, but that is not enough.
Without representation in the Dail, we will not be afforded the same worth as those who do have representation.
Are you telling me if 250,000 Irish citizens in the north were entitled to vote in Dail elections, we would be treated no differently and would still be brushed off?
Really?
Back again.
Why should the people of Northern Ireland have representation in The Dail? You are aware what the people voted for in the GFA, right? You are aware that NI is part of the UK until such times the majority wants otherwise, right? Plus there’s the whole ‘no taxation without representation’ line I could go down because the citizens of NI pay their taxes to HMRC but I don’t think I need to.
I think you need to inject a bit of realism into your mindset and appreciate the lay of the land as it actually is instead of moaning about it not being something you want it to be.
If you want to pay taxes to RoI and have representation in The Dail then you have 2 options. 1. Move to RoI or 2. convince enough people that a UI is is everyone’s best interests and follow the path set down already in the GFA.
“But anyway Jessica, I gotta catch a flight…you keep moaning and moaning and we’ll see how far that takes us down the UI path.”
You still don’t get it.
I want to be part of patriotic Ireland, one proud of its past, proud of our identity. If that means giving up on a UI and instead the pursuit of two independent Irelands so be it. The GFA does not allow for this and that is why it is dead.
“(BTW, in regards to this second rate Irish thing, have you never been told that no one can make you feel inferior without your permission?)”
If I truly felt I was inferior, I would let it go.
I wont, because I am not, and for that reason I will not be told I have to earn my Irish citizenship by you or anyone else.
“Please don’t tell me that neanderthals like Gregory Campbell and Sammy Wilson dictate your Irishness.”
The fight with unionism is over, the DUP are coalition partners with Sinn Fein, that part of our journey is well and truly over.
Unionism has peaked and is on the decline in overall numbers which has been proven for the first time. The fact they are still a majority because the Irish feel abandoned by the south and feel no affinity with stormont is what needs to be addressed now.
Unionism is now on the decline which will accelerate and is now irrelevant. That can no longer be used as an excuse to keep out of all island interests.
“you seem more intent on finding out who the ‘true’ republicans are rather than actually earning reunification. Am I wrong?”
By the way Morpheus, what have you or anyone in the south done to earn your representation in the Dail, your entitlement to be full Irish and have a say in Irish referendums, say in who is our president etc… ?
Please spell out to us all what the price tag is for “earning reunification” as you put it and why you feel the south should not be involved or make any effort into achieving it?
“I want to be part of patriotic Ireland, one proud of its past, proud of our identity. If that means giving up on a UI and instead the pursuit of two independent Irelands so be it. The GFA does not allow for this and that is why it is dead.”
Oh I see, you want an independent RoI and an independent NI if a UI is off the table. In terms of percentage of the population, how many people do you think are in the same boat? Enough to influence policy? One thing for certain, until such times it is put to the people and they decide I don’t think it is any threat to the GFA so it remains well and truly alive. But I welcome it if it is what the people want.
“…I wont, because I am not, and for that reason I will not be told I have to earn my Irish citizenship by you or anyone else.”
Who said you have to earn your Irish citizenship? This is dictionary definition straw man. I didn’t earn mine, I was lucky enough to be born this way.
“By the way Morpheus, what have you or anyone in the south done to earn your representation in the Dail, your entitlement to be full Irish and have a say in Irish referendums, say in who is our president etc… ?”
Unlike some, my Irishness does not depend on who sits in The Dail as I am sure is the same position of million of Irish diaspora all over the world. You think Sean in New York or Sinead in Perth feel less Irish because they don’t vote for who sits in Leinster House? Or who gets their tax cheque? Hardly. I bet those guys are as “full Irish” today as they were prior to the recent elections.
“Please spell out to us all what the price tag is for “earning reunification” as you put it and why you feel the south should not be involved or make any effort into achieving it?”
Again with the straw man. I absolutely think that the south should be involved and making an effort into achieving it – that is what I meant when I said, repeatedly, that the people of Ireland (which includes the south) need to make an informed decision.
For your clarity, I think the guarantors of the GFA should be working together (preferably with an independent 3rd party) to provide the people of Ireland the information they need to they can make an informed decision. When they have all the information the people of Ireland can decide if they want a UI or if they don’t. It really is that simple.
If, over time, an independent NI is thrown in the mix then so be that as well, I’m a democrat and will accept the will of the majority.
“Why should the people of Northern Ireland have representation in The Dail?”
We are Irish citizens living in Ireland, do we need another reason?
“You are aware what the people voted for in the GFA, right? You are aware that NI is part of the UK until such times the majority wants otherwise, right? ”
You are aware that the GFA has not been implemented and that a border poll has been rejected by the SOS for 4 years now?
“If you want to pay taxes to RoI and have representation in The Dail then you have 2 options. 1. Move to RoI or 2. convince enough people that a UI is is everyone’s best interests and follow the path set down already in the GFA.”
That’s what I got from unionists when they were in control, if I want to live in Ireland move to ROI.
You have given it a second wind, well done.
“For your clarity, I think the guarantors of the GFA should be working together (preferably with an independent 3rd party) to provide the people of Ireland the information they need to they can make an informed decision. When they have all the information the people of Ireland can decide if they want a UI or if they don’t. It really is that simple. If, over time, an independent NI is thrown in the mix then so be that as well, I’m a democrat and will accept the will of the majority.”
I know they should Morpheus, we have been crying out for it for many years but they aren’t and quite the opposite have no interest and no one is listening hence the apathy kicking in.
It is not a straw man to point that out.
You seem to expect me to be able to persuade others more capable of implementing change to listen, but then accuse me of moaning and expect me to shut up for using the only means available to me to make my feelings known.
“We are Irish citizens living in Ireland, do we need another reason?”
Yes. Southern Ireland doesn’t have jurisdiction over the North so living in the North isn’t reason to be represented in the Southern parliament.
“You are aware that the GFA has not been implemented and that a border poll has been rejected by the SOS for 4 years now?”
It has been implemented; there’s no obligation on the Secretary of State to have a border poll; and even there had been there wouldn’t have been a vote in favour of a ‘united Ireland’.
“That’s what I got from unionists when they were in control, if I want to live in Ireland move to ROI.
You have given it a second wind, well done.”
Not if you want to live in Ireland (you already do): if you want to pay taxes to and be represented by the Southern parliament.
Cut to the chase. Never mind ‘informed electorates’ and all that. The free state govts continuously led campaigns whether it be same sex marriage, joining the EU etc but when it comes to the unification of their country they step back and ‘allow the people to decide’. It’s a cop out and everyone knows it. If they were seriously genuine they would be leading campaigns in informing the electorate that this is the right thing to do. Republicans don’t fear a vote on unification. Whatever the result it will expose who is genuine and who is simply a fraud. I for one would love to see Edna Kenny and mick Martin squirm as they try to wriggle their way out of campaigning for a yes vote.
Btw, the ‘only show in town’ Ie the GFA, is just a piece of paper. Nothing is set in stone. That much is apparent in the last 15 yrs or so. Numerous parties have failed to adhere to it. Also, the GFA was instilled upon the Irish people north and south. I guarantee very few of the electorate read it. Rather they were ‘informed’ by politicians and celebs to vote yes in it. Led by the nose if you like. Any chance some of those same politicians and celebs will lead the electorate by the nose in voting for unification?
“Never mind informed electorates and all that” – never mind the people who can actually make a difference and can bring it about? Not a great approach.
From your first paragraph you seem more intent on finding out who the ‘true’ republicans are rather than actually earning reunification. Am I wrong?
Your second paragraph is the usual “the people don’t *really* want it” stuff regarding the credibility of the GFA however the people of Ireland voted for it. Comprehensively. You might not like it but I respectfully suggest you get over it because it’s here, enshrined in international law, until something else is put to the people and agreed. The ability to bring about a UI is contained within those pages.
The problem is that political nationalism/republican has been so incredibly lazy they have not even started work on the 1 issue that makes them nationalist/republican – yet they wonder why their vote is down. Go figure.
For the record Republicans should fear the first vote for reunification. I suspect that the first will be used as a marker, as players do in darts, but if handled incorrectly will set the whole thing back by decades..
Yes Morpheus, I would really love to find out who has a genuine desire for unification especially those who pull the strings and decide policy for the ‘informed electorate’. In case you havnt noticed thousands of Irish folk have taken to the streets demanding their govt abolish water charges. In spite of that politicians have continued to contrive a way to keep the charge. So you see no matter what the ‘people who can make a difference’ say, the controllers can still contrive to undermine them. It’s about time these so called leaders were made to put up for something that any self respecting Irish person expected to do and be seen to support Irish unification.
You see Morpheus as you well know most people follow the populist line anyway hence why the politicians regularly wheel out celebs for example to do their bidding. If all those who campaigned for same sex marriage or the EU showed the same keenness to campaign for unification then the result would be a foregone conclusion. Alas these clowns would prefer to pull the ladder up as ‘I’m alright jack’.
Clowns like Michael d Higgins use their irishness(and how they fought for their freedom lol) to traipse around other countries and regions like s.america as some sort of experts. They criticise others for genocide of the Palestinian people and yet they ignore their own people in their own land. You couldn’t make it up. So if anything it would give folk around the world a real good laugh to see them exposed as liars and hypocrites at the very least.
“earning reunification.”
So we have to earn unification do we Morpheus?
So what exactly do we have to do to earn our place in our own country?
Earn reunification in the sense that it has to be worked for to be achieved, it won’t be handed on a silver platter. I thought that was evident from what I wrote
“Cut to the chase. Never mind ‘informed electorates’ and all that. The free state govts continuously led campaigns whether it be same sex marriage, joining the EU etc but when it comes to the unification of their country they step back and ‘allow the people to decide’.”
It is absolutely disgraceful WT.
We are second rate citizens in supposedly our own country. A nation to be proud of for sure.
The flag to unite green and orange, sure.
The anthem a rebel song about freedom, similar to the US, France and other nations, but only Ireland could shit on its own people at the same time.
Good article Jude. Could the reason why SF, SDLP, Fiana Fail and Fiana Gael, all parties who on the surface support Reunification, have never set out there vision for a what exactly a UI would look like be because they know that at the moment it’s not viable economically and political.
Questions like how would you fill the 10 Billion gap we receive from Westminster, would northerners be happy to give up there NHS and what to do about a large section of Unionists who would never will be happy about a UI. I believe it’s not discussed among Nationalist parties because they have no answers. I would describe myself as a liberal unionist but I’m not polarised against the idea of a UI. No ones ever put a convincing agrugement before me of how people in NI would be better off because of it.
scott – something like a binary jurisdiction such as outlined here might be a good transitioning strategy.
It could be in place for as long as needed, until the UK decides the last pro-Unionists are not worth maintaining in ireland, or Unionists/Loyalists change their minds and settle down , shuffle off their mortal coils and so on and so forth
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/01/18/what-does-it-mean-to-be-irish/
Am Ghob, whilst what you suggest is appealing, you do sound like every other unionist. Don’t have the tricolour. ie: Don’t have any trappings of Irishness on your terms, but be neutral, like unionist proposals for integrated schools; lets integrate but no Irish flags please, or language or GAA, you’ll learn to accept the British flag and culture in due course. We’ll not ram it down your throat any more, just expunge your own view on things and then you’ll forget about them in time.
“Am Ghob, whilst what you suggest is appealing, you do sound like every other unionist. Don’t have the tricolour. ie: Don’t have any trappings of Irishness on your terms, but be neutral, like unionist proposals for integrated schools; lets integrate but no Irish flags please, or language or GAA, you’ll learn to accept the British flag and culture in due course. We’ll not ram it down your throat any more, just expunge your own view on things and then you’ll forget about them in time.”
The Gaelic language and GAA are taught in integrated schools.
There are no British flags in integrated schools.
Not sure why I can’t reply to you again above Jessica – very irritating.
“You are aware that the GFA has not been implemented and that a border poll has been rejected by the SOS for 4 years now?”
Yes, I am aware that there hasn’t been a border poll but I am curious – given the conditions I previously mentioned under which a poll can be called what do you think should’ve persuaded the SoS over the last 4 years? The drop in the nationalist vote as people who say they want a united Ireland do the exact thing they shouldn’t do ie. stay away from the polling booth?
Don’t you think it ironic that in order to persuade the SoS that a border poll would succeed election results need to show a good turnout for nationalist parties yet a section give it the old “I’m not taking part in British elections” brew-ha-ha? Don’t they see that a good turn out for nationalist parties will make the SoS say “hmmmm, maybe the people of NI are not indifferent/happy with the status quo and actually want to being about change?”
I know you are gonna say “well I don’t think the SoS should make the call” and “they are not worth voting for” but again I need to reiterate the people of Ireland wanted it this way, this is the way it needs to be. That’s the game and as a wise man once said:
“If you’re gonna play the game boy, you gotta learn to play it right”
LOTTA truth in that. First we have to accept that we are in a game that we need to play to get what we want, then we need to learn the rules, then we need to play the game right, then we win.
(And for the record, I don’t want you to shut up. A strong, articulate voice like yours is needed. I just want to see it channeled in the right direction)
“The drop in the nationalist vote as people who say they want a united Ireland do the exact thing they shouldn’t do ie. stay away from the polling booth?”
I do understand what you are saying Morpheus, you believe all of the responsibility for Irish unity should be put squarely on the poor relations north of the border.
The (currently) wealthier south should not be expected to play any part but consider unification once the unruly lot in the north prove their worth and earn a shot at joining the rest of Ireland in enjoying independence of British rule. The end result is there are now a lot more people in the south who also believe we are as British as Finchley.
“Don’t you think it ironic that in order to persuade the SoS that a border poll would succeed election results need to show a good turnout for nationalist parties yet a section give it the old “I’m not taking part in British elections” brew-ha-ha? Don’t they see that a good turn out for nationalist parties will make the SoS say “hmmmm, maybe the people of NI are not indifferent/happy with the status quo and actually want to being about change?”
Of course I do, I am not a fool.
Don’t you see, that unless Dublin shows a shred of interest in the north and unity, more and more nationalists are going to ask why they want unity at all?
I am Irish and don’t need unity to prove it. Yes, I would like an independent Ireland, a 32 county united Ireland that all of our people are passionate about, who are not afraid to be Irish and just as proud of our past as we are of our future.
But if the south seem ashamed of that past, the Irish in the north will not be. We will not abandon the sacrifices of our patriot dead whether in 1916 before or more recent.
You are taking it for granted that unity can be achieved without any effort or desire south of the border.
It cannot and it is resulting not only in voter apathy, but questions as to whether we want to be ruled by Dublin at all.
What you need to understand is that the number of people speaking out in support of Irish unity will also decline along with the nationalist vote.
And that is not democracy by the way, it is abandonment, despair and finally acceptance that we are Irish in an occupied part of Ireland and truly on our own.
Democracy would be encouraging the discussion of the benefits of unity for all our people and helping persuade the SOS that it is worthy of debate and a choice given to all of the people of Ireland and not some radical opinion limited to parts of the north.
If that is all it is, we should forget about it and accept there is no democracy on some issues.
“I know you are gonna say “well I don’t think the SoS should make the call” and “they are not worth voting for” but again I need to reiterate the people of Ireland wanted it this way, this is the way it needs to be. That’s the game and as a wise man once said:”
I am not going to say that at all, I am going to say the GFA was primarily a vote for peace by a people who had endured a long and terrible conflict.
18 years on and seeing the result, how do you know it is what the Irish people want?
“LOTTA truth in that. First we have to accept that we are in a game that we need to play to get what we want, then we need to learn the rules, then we need to play the game right, then we win.”
It is not a game for me Morpheus. It is reality and one I struggle to deal with.
I agree that it does seem no more than that to others though.
“And that is not democracy by the way, it is abandonment, despair and finally acceptance that we are Irish in an occupied part of Ireland and truly on our own.”
No part of Ireland is occupied.
“No part of Ireland is occupied”. I’d find it hard to come up with a statement so vulnerable to contradiction in so many ways, MT
” I’d find it hard to come up with a statement so vulnerable to contradiction in so many ways, MT”
My goodness. I didn’t have you down as suffering from delusion.
“I do understand what you are saying Morpheus, you believe all of the responsibility for Irish unity should be put squarely on the poor relations north of the border. The (currently) wealthier south should not be expected to play any part but consider unification once the unruly lot in the north prove their worth and earn a shot at joining the rest of Ireland in enjoying independence of British rule. The end result is there are now a lot more people in the south who also believe we are as British as Finchley.”
Again, no, straw man – that is not what I said at all. Irish unity is for the electorate, north and south of the border to decide when they have all the information they need to make an informed decision. I don’t see how I can be any clearer about that as I have said it more than several times on this thread.
“Democracy would be encouraging the discussion of the benefits of unity for all our people and helping persuade the SOS that it is worthy of debate and a choice given to all of the people of Ireland and not some radical opinion limited to parts of the north.”
Not sure what you mean by the final few words but the rest of it….yeah, now you’re getting it.
See my comments below to WT regarding vain attempts to discredit the GFA.
“Irish unity is for the electorate, north and south of the border to decide when they have all the information they need to make an informed decision. I don’t see how I can be any clearer about that as I have said it more than several times on this thread.”
Perhaps you could help me with a few questions Morpheus.
If unification is for the electorate when they have all of the information they need to make an informed decision then can you tell me how exactly does the electorate obtain all this information they need to make an informed decision if the Dail they elected refuses to participate in providing it or in making it an issue even worth discussing?
Do you think that the refusal of the parties in power to take it seriously means that the people do not care about it and would you agree that regardless of the reality of the answer to that question, that is the perception that it portrays?
In my head the guarantors of the GFA would work hand in hand with an independent organisation/team who will supply cold, hard facts about what a UI entails in terms of health, education, economy, political representation, social security etc. basically everything a person would need to say “Yes, that’s for me and mine” or “No, that’s not for me and mine.”
This independent organisation/team would be funded by the Guarantors (a small price to pay for stability in the long-term) will be free from political pressure – hell I would bring in a team of Eskimo academics if i thought they could be impartial.
Their report would basically be an impartial blue-print, a proposal which is put before the people of Ireland so they can say yes or no to it.
Morpheus, are you telling me that if SF/SDLP demanded that they wanted a poll carried out that unless the nationalist electorate doesn’t ‘play the game’ and vote continuously in farcical elections, the SoS would reject their demand? What if the nationalist parties decided to abandon stormont? Would a SoS still reject their demand? If this is the case it is conclusive proof that SF etc were not great negotiators at all and the British played a blinder. Btw even in the event of a border poll the SoS can reject the result if, lets say it may cause unrest in the north. Is that true? If so then it’s hilarious for nationalists to even call themselves negotiators.
Bottom line is this, ‘the people’ didn’t vote for this. They were told to vote for this British ‘game’ to simply get peace. They were urged by the great and the good to vote this GFA as it was the ‘right thing to do’ and I would argue they trusted the ‘great negotiators’ and voted for it, without actually reading it or at least understanding it. Blind faith is a major weakness.
At the end of the day it’s just a bit of paper. I am sure other bits of paper can be produced in the future especially so when the British might need the goal posts changed if it looks like they might lose their ‘game’.
“Btw even in the event of a border poll the SoS can reject the result if, lets say it may cause unrest in the north. Is that true?”
Such nonsense. Have you been talking to Ryan or something?
‘Such nonsense. Have you been talking to Ryan or something?’
Utter rubbish. Where’s your proof? Yawn.
“Utter rubbish. Where’s your proof? Yawn.”
My proof? You’re making the claim, so it’s up to you to provide proof thst the SoS can ignore the outcome of a border poll!
However you’ll find the GFA and NI Act 1998 place a duty on both governments to give effect to such an outcome.
“(1) It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1.
(2) But if the wish expressed by a majority in such a poll is that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.”
As per comment number 1 on this thread WT no one is certain what the criteria is for a border poll to be called but I am very confident that “because SF/SDLP asked for one” is not one of them so of course it would be rejected. Why on earth would it not be rejected?
Think about this man, what is more likely to make a SoS confident that a border poll would succeed:
1. a DECREASING vote for nationalist parties OR
2. an INCREASING vote for nationalist parties
2, right? So those who sit at home because they ‘don’t take part in British elections blah blah blah’ are literally doing the most harm to the aspiration of a UI.
In terms of negotiators then they were either all equally good negotiators or equally bad because the net result is that:
1. violence is substantially reduced (far from removed however)
2. both the British and Irish Government have agreed to implement the democratic will of the majority, whatever that may be.
That’s win-win.
Jessica has a perfectly valid point above when she talks about the southern parties being indifferent…at best. I would argue the northern ones are too. In fact I would go one better and say they are lazy. But you also need to keep in mind that the SF are now in Government north of the border and play a significant role in the opposition south of the border. Uniquely they are in a position to push their agenda in both jurisdictions so over the next term of Government we’ll just have to wait and see what they do about that. If at the end of this term they have done bugger all, like they have done so far, then the electorate are free to punish them for it but I would wager that they will use republicanism to goad FF/FG to venture north which will result in greater choice and more transfers.
(and that is coming from someone who has never voted SF in their life)
You can try to discredit the GFA all you want but with all due respect it means jack to anyone but you. It’s like howling at the moon. Regardless of what you think it was voted on and it is here, enshrined in international law. Can it change? Absolutely but until such times why not focus on the bits which allow your aspirations to become a reality and focus your energy on those?
Step 1: get confirmation on what criteria the SoS must see in order to be confident that a border poll would succeed. Only then can the scale of the project be ascertained.
‘Get comfirmation on what the criteria the SoS must see’……..? Surely that was the negotiators’ job? Btw the GFA has been discredited a long time ago nobody really gives it a blind bit of difference, only the nationalists parties, that much is evident.
I’ll focus my energies on urging others not to be obedient little citizens and playing to Britains rules thank you very much.
It was indeed the negotiators job and I can’t for the life of me figure why it was left so incredibly vague. But it is what it is…that’s why it is step 1 now. 18 years later. See what I mean about lazy?
You carry on your approach of howling at the moon, completely up to you. Let’s see what impact it has. My suspicion is absolutely diddly squat BUT when you see headlines like “nationalist vote down again” and “united Ireland further away than ever” you’ll know why
Thank you for the conversation on this topic Morpheus, it has been helpful and offered some insight.
Politics appears to be a game played out over very long periods and not suitable for emotional train wrecks such as myself however.
You seem to have the opinion that the SoS is impartial on the topic of a border poll. My own life experience has resulted in me finding it extremely difficult to trust any british politician or any british authority in Ireland so I am already at a disadvantage in this game.
Especially if the Dublin government has no interest in playing any role.
Yes, Sinn Fein has delivered an end of violence and through the GFA the British and Irish Governments have made an internationally recognised agreement to implement the unification of Ireland should that be the wishes of the majority.
The unionist electorate has gone through its first decline in numbers which will decrease incrementally each election from here due to the age demographics while the nationalist electorate will continue to increase.
You would think the time was right for a united push towards unity on this island, yet it has not materialised.
The southern parties and their media have been scathing over the north in fact pandering to unionism exemplified in a snub by our supposed president.
On top of this, Sinn Fein have mellowed on their stance on unification and are showing the patience of saints against unionist insults, blatant abuse of their veto and continuing their total intransigence even in the face of dwindling numbers.
Have they gone soft on unity or is there a bigger picture we are missing?
I do not believe they are lazy or lack motivation.
As you say, they are influencing control the north and will be in a position to influence Fianna Fail in particular over the coming term in the south.
If that resulted in FG and FF coming north that would be a total game changer.
“Step 1: get confirmation on what criteria the SoS must see in order to be confident that a border poll would succeed. Only then can the scale of the project be ascertained.”
Your point here is absolutely astonishing. I have absolutely no idea what the criteria for a border poll to be called is. Is it any wonder nationalist turn out in the elections went down?
But was this an unforgivable oversight or was it deliberate to keep unionists in a false sense of security?
Had Sinn Fein had confirmation there would be a border poll should they have been the larger party, it would have been close this time but I feel they would have succeeded. That is what it would take to get the nationalist vote out.
In 5 years time, it would not be close, it would be more or less guaranteed, especially of they manage to as you say, use republicanism to goad FF/FG into acknowledging ending partition.
We will just have to wait and see what happens and how it all plays out I guess.
I still don’t agree that the electorate should be making things happen, but those who seek our votes. What is clear, if the electorate do not like what they are being asked to vote for, they wont.
Parties may play games but the electorate don’t and are not responsible for the failure of political parties. The only real control we have is to take away our vote when there is nothing we like to vote for.
Perhaps the parties in the south will find the same if there truly is any interest in unity among the public in the south, who knows.
through the GFA the British and Irish Governments have made an internationally recognised agreement to implement the unification of Ireland should that be the wishes of the majority.’
Eh? That was agreed in 1973, 25 years before the GFA.
“You seem to have the opinion that the SoS is impartial on the topic of a border poll.”
Nope. This is exactly the reason why I posted the original post on this thread (about a year ago it seems 🙂 ) – to ensure that the decision making process is transparent and objective. No SoS should be able to make the decision based subjectively on their own private thought process so there should be concrete criteria which says to everyone that a border poll will be called if x, y and z have been met. Once x, y and z have been confirmed then nationalism can see how far they have to travel to get there and plan accordingly.
“But was this an unforgivable oversight or was it deliberate to keep unionists in a false sense of security?”
It’s a balancing act – they can’t go full throttle because it will spook a lot of people and cause those who are currently undecided (approximately 30% of the population) will clam up. No one likes change, especially life-altering changes like this so the topic needs to be progressed cooly, intelligently and rationally. Regardless I don’t think there was any Machiavellian scheme in place to deceive anyone.
One thing is for certain is that this CANNOT be a solely SF lead project. If that is the only option then the project should be shelved now. FF/FG/SF/SDLP/Lab etc should be leading the campaign – maybe even a senior member from each party dedicated to a nationalist council for reunification or something like that. They should NOT pay for any reports to be commissioned because it will be written off as propaganda. Instead nationalism as a collective should be saying to the GFA Guarantors:
“British/Irish Governments: look at the elections results…a sizable, increasing number of us are interested in the possibility of a UI and a sizable number are undecided. Together we form a majority but we don’t have the information needed to make an informed decision. Please can you two work with an independent organisation to get answers to the key questions we have regarding what life in a UI would be like so we can decide if it is for us and our families or not”
Nationalism is obviously not in that position because the first bit above is pure fabrication but you get the idea of asking from a position of strength an opposed to weakness.