At least it has made Norneverland ‘s politics momentarily interesting. This business about the Ulster Unionist Party going into opposition with the latent hanging notion that their leader, TV Mike ‘s seemingly desperate act to stay relevant , might actually force both the SDLP and Alliance to break the logjam and join an Opposition with him. That raises the conundrum of who will then be voted in as Justice Minister, a role already generally pre- designated to Alliance by the notion that they are the only real cross-community party(albeit a “light” unionist one). By the general terms of the Good Friday Agreement this balance of power between nationalists and unionists must be upheld at all costs ,favouring neither ultra nationalists nor ultra unionists and that is the one thing that has helped both the DUP and Sinn Fein to rub along together even thought they would each rather live on the moon than work together.
So if the Alliance Party decide to jump ship and join an Opposition ,it leaves the entire edifice of local governance in something of a quandary. Neither Sinn Fein nor the DUP would prefer to see their opposite number in charge of “JUSTICE”. It’s another one of those bete noirs much like the idea of a Nationalist becoming Supreme First Minister of Norneverland . It simple is beyond conception for some and the DuP only two weeks ago fought an election on that very fear and premise..Of course when you think of it , the threat was always there. Alliance might enjoy this moment of holding the balance of power, in their sticky hands ,for a day or two , but a hard choice will have to be made very soon. Sinn Fein’s easiest way forward is for Alliance to bite this bullet and take the Justice Ministry and they will do everything they can to encourage that but will blame Alliance for crashing the entire scheme if they refuseto play ball. I’d say the DUP would see it as a way out too.
You can’t help but wonder had the mandarins in the darkened backrooms of Whitehall already figured out every twisted and convoluted turn of this plan some twenty years ago in that this cats’ cradle of a Norneverland Home Rule would be constructed in such a way that its potential demise would always be blamed on the one party that refuses to play the game and is first to throw its cards on the table and walk away. Nobody here would have thought that Alliance might well be manipulated into taking the blame like this should they rattle the cage.
I see the whole thing as SF being supine in order to keep Stormont going. I do not know how far they will go and how much they will put up with to maintain a partitioned settlement. If SF had any integrity they wwould tell the DUP that Justice is just another department and should be treated in the same way as any other, the alliance would get nothing as their mandate dictates.
“If SF had any integrity they would tell the DUP that Justice is just another department and should be treated in the same way as any other, the alliance would get nothing as their mandate dictates.”
Would they then not be seen simply as the junior partner in a coalition government administering British rule in Ireland? Plus Arlene has already told them they aren’t allowed it.
“You can’t help but wonder had the mandarins in the darkened backrooms of Whitehall already figured out every twisted and convoluted turn of this plan some twenty years ago”
You could be on to something there Harry.
If the other parties have any sense they will all go into opposition which will de facto result in a DUP / Sinn Fein joint coalition.
Perhaps the same thing might work in the Dail with Fine Gael and Fianna Fail.
The similarities are remarkable don’t you think?
Perhaps we are not so different north and south after all.
That’s me just being hyper cynical Jessica…..but you’d never know…..
Tv Mike`s dramatic speech was a bit of a laugh, the mighty UUP (when did we stop calling them the OUP?) being reduced to the level of possible opposition. How the likes of Craig and Brooke must be spinning in their graves, not to mention Chiccchheessstterrr Clarke (good old Irish name that…) and Terence O`Neill. Personally I would rather not see an opposition as that is the first steps towards old fashioned `majority` rule, something Nationalists should be wary of. For obvious reasons.
And , so the auld merrry go round keeps on turning…….like Jessica ,i’m pissed off to my oxters wiith pseudo Irishmen trying to tell me that utopia is just around the corner…… i have lived with this aspirational hope from April 1998 , but nothing has changed , my language is sneered at , my national flag is routinely burned on their bonfires of sectariarism and discrimination , …..In a “so called” joint ministry ,Foster makes McGuinness look like a lackey …I’ve also got to the “abstinence from voting ” stage…if Sinn Féin doesn’t awaken shortly to the discontent everywhere then another convoluted and dirty period of warfare WILL erupt !
The problem is for SF they seem to be they only one making any form of conciliatory gestures yet the DUP keeps on treating them with disdain. It is to use a phrase time they grew a pair.
As for Alliance making demands that is liking a child thinking it has got one over on its parents by refusing to eat ice cream. Eamonn McCann for Justice?
“The problem is for SF they seem to be they only one making any form of conciliatory gestures yet the DUP keeps on treating them with disdain. It is to use a phrase time they grew a pair.”
I don’t believe for a second that Sinn Fein lack courage BD, but I am at the same time also at a loss as to why they are making themselves look like chumps to blatant unionist arrogance and keeping things going in stormpot despite unionisms total abuse of their veto against everything pro Irish on top of the constant snide remarks and put downs.
All I can think off is that they are trying to give the southern establishments personal media as little ammunition to attack them on en route to replacing them at the helm.
The Dail has not only snubbed northern nationalism and focussed on sucking up to unionism and britain for its own self interests but the parties have also focussed so much more on attacking Sinn Fein and negative campaigning regardless of the consequences in the occupied territory that they are unfit to lead this country.
Fianna Fail have personally delivered not only water charges and criminal records to many who refuse to pay them and given the worst Taoiseach we have ever had (a complete jackass) their blessing for another term. They may be sitting on the opposition benches but they are an integral part of keeping this new FG led Dublin government afloat and will therefore be seen as the de facto junior partners.
I am sure the attacks and media slurs will continue but this time it will be against the backdrop of FG and FF showing their true hatred of one another compared to Sinn Feins pathetic tolerance of unionist intransigence.
Be interesting to see how they spin that one against them.
I think it’s time we had a shinner/provo justice minister, they can screw up this ministry like they have will all the others they have been in charge of.
The thought of a provo justice minister sending other Irish republican terrorists to gaol, would mark the shinners/provos full arrival at part of the British establishment. Irish republicans sending other Irish republicans to gaol, how British is that.
I believe that Sinn Fein could quite easily go on the offensive at every slur from unionism about everything from broken promises about things like the Maze development debacle and Peter’s letter from America…the DUP’s Cult Of Arlene in the recent election and the the unionist fear and obsession about being First Minister when it will very obviously change hands at some future sometime and is in essence a shared position anyway.
My feeling is that having gained a position of strength ater many years of matching unionist violence with their own responding violence, they know that it will never unite the people of Norneverland …never mind the people of the entire Irish island.They know they need to show…no matter how slow the process or how interminably boring it might be for us onlookers that somehow they can show that patiently and in very small increments , we can all work together in some kind of manageable way…while holding on to our own essential ,varying political ethos(i!). Eventually there will be a realisation that neither side is a bunch of devils with cloven feet which will stymie any future thoughts of violence, hopefully…The dissident potential bombers obviously haven’t got this kind of patience ,but I can’t really see how they can promote island reconciliation by pursuing their current plans of bombing .Their own ompatience for change could very well hold that change back at this juncture.There is an argument as to whether or not Norneverland needs to be workable to make it a more alluring prize for eventual reconciliation with the south or whether it should be proven unworkable as it now stands , leading to abandonment by the UK. Sinn Fein have already tried out that second one and it led to our current positionso why do the dissidents think it might work when tried again with even less support ? That’s a question that needs an answer.
It might take yet another generation but if it can be shown that we can work together , then there might be a space for rational debate without fear for the pros and cons of re-uniting the people of the island under one governance.My feeling is that there might even be a sort of federal solution ultimately involving the historical provinces….each with their own unique local cultures and inputs.
In the meantime what is needed is for Sinn Fein to swallow ultra-unionist bile at the very idea of sharing power with ultra- nationalism until they really get used to that awful unthinkable idea and not feel threatened by it …and feel that finally it is what grown-ups have to do in all walks of life and in every situation in life… compromise .
“Compromise” has always been a dirty word for unionism who see it as a weakness anyway and have preferred triumphalism as their best card to play. They have built an Annual Marching Industry on the back of a showbizzy triumphalism of marching bands, burning foes on bonfires and raiding the dressing up box every summer to proclaim their red white and blue britishness. You might say they care more about it than anyone in the UK might, but to nationalists looking on with a good weather-eye, it is seen as a massive cult of insecurity.
We all have to deal with that insecurity if politics are to develop into anything like normality so it is left to someone like Our Marty , Deputy First Miinister ,to come across as more statesmanlike at every turn and in doing so , point out to his followers and to unionism generally that it is possible to act in a magnaminious way even though it tastes like ashes in your mouth. This game will take a lot of patience but it seems very obvious to me that at this present moment neither we in Norneverland nor the people living below the Imaginary Border are ready at this particular moment in time to be re-united as one team. Some fifty per cent of the population don’t bother to vote , so they very obviously don’t see that they should even think about it at all …and I’m sure that many don’t ever give it a thought.
We are still all alien to each other even though we share a small landmass.We have a lot of talking and debating to do yet to close that gap. If we can get past the idea of insullting each other at every turn(nationalism hating unionism and unionism hating nationalism) , we just might have a chance. I think Sinn Fein are about right not to rush it at this point but it is not very exciting holding your tongue when you’d rather spit tacks. It’s a bit like learning how to raise children..Watch out for the things that they can teach you when you’re not looking.
“They know they need to show…no matter how slow the process or how interminably boring it might be for us onlookers that somehow they can show that patiently and in very small increments , we can all work together in some kind of manageable way…while holding on to our own essential ,varying political ethos(i!).”
That would appear to the strategy Harry.
Almost 20 years on and unionism is still voting on sectarian grounds, i.e. stopping SF holding the post of first minister.
Sinn Fein on the other hand are taking the loss of grass roots support on the chin on this principal, and I think you are right it is deliberate and accepted.
Not everyone has the tolerance and patience of Sinn Fein though. I know I dont.
Unionism has still not even admitted it had any role in starting a bloody conflict, that Paisley got it wrong about an IRA resurgence in 1966, that every death from that conflict stemmed from unionist intransigence and refusal to live as equals with its catholic neighbours.
Have you read what young scott wrote?
An A level student, still regurgitating that the free state persecuted protestants and that carson was only defending protestant rights as a minority.
Do you seriously think they are capable of change or that they will ever see Irish nationalists as their equals in Ireland?
“If we can get past the idea of insulting each other at every turn(nationalism hating unionism and unionism hating nationalism) , we just might have a chance.”
That is a bit unfair don’t you think Harry.
The insults appear to be one direction as far as I can see.
Unionism burns our flag as an accepted tradition, we stopped that long ago whereas they still see it as acceptable in 2016.
They may see us as rogues and renegades and tell us they have to hold their noses but I don’t recall similar insults levied back, do you?
Personally, I don’t give a damn about reconciliation with unionism.
It is on the decline, why bother?
Why not just make this place the way we want it to be now?
Unfortunately,harry, when the electorate see you more and more as a party of rollover sycophants then they either stop voting for you or just stop voting. How long do you keep courting a partner who regards you as doggy-do-I-just stepped-in before you get the message.
Well , this is entirely new territory for all of us Jessica and fiosrach. It’s just a place that none of us have been in before ,so it might take some adjustment to get used to the idea.
Okay , nobody likes being treated as a lesser being …all that schoolboy silliness that we’ve all had to listen to from the likes of Sammy Wilson, Ian Paisley Junior, Gregory and all the rest of it …so unashamedly banal and boorish that anywhere else they’d be booted out long ago…even The Dup’s party leaders of whatever sex have indulged in that sort of indulgent and gratuitous insult… ”’then again they’ll do it in a racist way with the muslim community or even stretch to homophobia ,so it’s obviously all that they know …and what they’ve been raised to know .. but it eventually demeans the bully rather than the victim . The bully becomes a bully usually because of low self-esteem or stupidity. Think of Peter’s comments …think of Arlene’s comments and how they always backfire.
Think about it as a personality disorder like tourette’s syndrome that has to be subtly addressed. You might say that in some cases it has to be dealt with using a certain amount of guile and stealth rather than by using a large club.It’s a fact that both unionist northern Ireland nationalism(for that’s what it really is when you think about it) and nationalist all -Ireland republicanism, are both valid political stands in their own way .At the moment the former has the upper-hand through some political sleight of hand and unashamed threat of warfare and sedition earlier in the twentieth century…but that balance has now shifted almost to a point of imbalance in favour of the latter, even though the state was artificially weighed in favour of unionism in the beginning . It is a very gradual thing but it is measurable and it and the change show little signs of slowing down .The only thing stopping its pace is voter apathy. Nationalism and republicanism have not yet reached that majority of voters willing to get off their collective arse…. so we have to wait until they actually get the picture..
So what do the nationalist voters really want ? They want those who are not voting as yet to do so.It’s only when the numbers are there that such things as border referendums can be addressed.Then there is the matter of education and valid provable information .How an All-Ireland will work …how we can get the south even vaguely interested in the idea …Has anyone seen any interest from them?
Now if we want some sort of magic wand that will get us all a new deal we’ll be waiting for a long time . I don’t see any really new alternatives and i’m sure if you guys had some you’d be already promoting them. It’s a fact that in a New Ireland there will be a place for the unionist commmunity , no matter what parties they should vote for (or abstain from) so it’s best to cultivate a form of normality among all our neighbours rather than prepare for a war with them.If there was a war., for example , would the rest of the neighbouring Irish islanders want any part of us ? I don’t think so somehow . In the meantime we’re now gearing up to vote in or out of the EU and you can bet your arse on a bandbox that 50% won’t bother with that either , even though it will have an effect on their every move. Meanwhile …we now get an Opposition in the Assembly to confuse the muddy water even further.
“It’s a fact that in a New Ireland there will be a place for the unionist commmunity ”
What does that even mean Harry?
No one is saying to drive them out or treat them poorly.
The unionist community puts protestant interests over that of all other religions, is there going to be a place for that?
The unionist community want Ireland to be ruled from London. Are you saying London is going to have some form of direct control over this new ireland?
The unionist community wants the queen as head of state. Is the Irish presidency going to be dissolved and the queen made the head of state in this new ireland?
If you mean the people living in what we refer to as unionist communities will be treated every bit as equals, that should be the case now never mind in a new ireland. But it isnt. Unionists today dont care about the importance of the irish identity to their nationalist neighbours.
What exactly do you mean by “in a New Ireland there will be a place for the unionist community”
Will there be more orange marches through nationalist areas?
Will the union flag fly over state buildings?
Will there still be annual bonfires burning the irish flag?
What i mean is that New Ireland will have a place for all the diverse tribes and nationalities that are steadily growing here. There are all sorts of nationalities here now and that will gradually have an effect on how people vote. That will include unionists. Those same unionists who have been formed somehow thinking that it’s” their way or no way” will be following the same rules as everyone else but their collective voice will gradually change when Britain is no longer part of the equation.They might still politically work for a re-unified Britain that includes all-Ireland , for example. They used to like it like that after all. I doubt that any ancient practices that annoy the neighbours will be allowed in a future New Ireland. The days of building huge bonfires are gradually going to come to an end , for example .Marching anywhere you like will naturally be constricted somewhat too because a very diverse public will no longer think it’s a good idea if there is any hint of coat-trailing instead of celebration. I imagine that in a New Ireland where every citizen has an equal stake that “unionism” will be a dead end political stance anyway and people will vote either in a right-wing or left-wing way for whoever they want to represent them best. That’ll mean that future political parties will not be designated by what religious social tribe you might be born into, but by other “normal” bread and butter considerations. …Just like in any other country.
As for your other worries about flags and such .Much of it will be irrelevant because there’d be a new flag for the entire country and proper Hate Laws would be in place and properly enforced for the first time.
“What i mean is that New Ireland will have a place for all the diverse tribes and nationalities that are steadily growing here. ”
Well, that is not what unionism is Harry.
Unionism is maintaining control over part of Ireland, so what you are in effect saying, there will be no place for unionism in either a united Ireland or in partitioned Ireland as it currently sits.
So in reality, all this crap about unionism is irrelevant as we have already proof they are on the decline and will see a gradually increasing decline going forward due to the demographics.
Now, to risk sounding racist which I do not consider myself to be, but I do not agree with you on the diversity and the nationalities that are steadily growing here.
I find myself more in favour of the brexit. If Britain do leave the EU, my preference would be for Ireland to also leave the EU also and to maintain our border agreement with the UK under an all Ireland context and screw Europe which I am very confident would collapse anyway should Britain leave.
I am sick to death of all the foreigners coming over. It is most definitely not going to help us build the new Ireland and welfare state our people deserve, especially when Turkey is brought into the mix.
What about a new UK with a Scottish republic and an Irish republic but a united British isles including all of Ireland?
Look how many Irish people live in GB, our priorities lie there and not with the diverse tribes from the EU.
Though judging by how the south dumped on its own in the north they hardly matter either.
Well Jessica . You’ve some ideas there but also some mixed messages. One thing about the EU that has been bypassed is that it is a kind of glue , economically and socially that grew out of the chaos of a warring Europe. It’s only been seventy -odd years since World War Two ended and London and Belfast were being blitzed by German bombers. Many irish went to help re-build London .My mother and father went from Ireland during those years , met and married i London . They came back home to Ireland to raise their family ,but many stayed on . Ten or fifteen years after that war , Germany which had lost the war ,was already thriving and Britain was still struggling. There’s been peace for seventy years, though.
Unionism’s ethos is to maintain a close “union” with the UK, not necessarily to dominate. It might seem that way because of a particular set of boorish and thick-witted politicians at present, but as the numbers change and that is then a minority view, unionism with the UK will diminish and newer alliances could be made. In the end , if enough people vote not to remain in a “union” with the UK or instead have a new “union” with the rest of the Irish, then the story might change. If Scotland eventually wanted to become an Independant Republic, for example, that would change everything. As you say, there might eventually be a return to the “complete” British isles, including all-Ireland ,each territory of which might operate as unique federations.Can you imagine something like that? The Principality of Wales, the Republic of Scotland , the English Monarchy ,the two Irish republics of Norneverland and the Southern Republic of Ireland …all working together with a diaspora of mixed cultures stretching across the two landmasses and a bunch of smaller islands.As someone already pointed out , a Yorkshire man sees himself as a totallt different kind of Englishman than someon down south in Essex…so too do we see ourselves different in each county of Ireland .
You say ….
” I am sick to death of all the foreigners coming over. It is most definitely not going to help us build the new Ireland and welfare state our people deserve, especially when Turkey is brought into the mix.”…
..well that’s a point of view , but it is the same basic point of view that the Little Englanders of the Daily Mail or UKIP seem to have .I prefer to believe that “foreigners” are actually enriching our culture in so many ways and are added to the richness of the bloodstock. I’d refer back to what I said earlier about the Irish going to London . It’s not uncommon for a certain kind of person to seek new life, work and adventure in other countries.The kind of person who makes that effort has ambition of sorts and is prepared to work and better their lot. Of course there’ll be good and bad as there is in any society. The Irish were denigraded a generation or two ago when they went abroad..as were the immigrants who came from Jamaica , Pakistan,Italy, China , India and all the rest. Now we think nothing of popping out for a pizza, a vindaloo or a special fried -rice. Our children mix with a mongrel collection of multi-race, multi- cultured children at school now. There’s Russian, Polish , and all the rest adding their cultural spice to the mix …and those children will be the voters of the very near future. Our hospitals are full of skilled nurses and doctors , picked from all around the world.I don’t think they are going anywhere…anytime soon.
If you wanted a united country …or come to that …a united world …this is how it will be resolved eventually .
One thing about the EU that has been bypassed is that it is a kind of glue , economically and socially that grew out of the chaos of a warring Europe.
So what is the backup plan for when the glue comes unstuck?
“Unionism’s ethos is to maintain a close “union” with the UK, not necessarily to dominate.”
Harry, you will be telling me the orange order is a Christian organisation next.
“It’s not uncommon for a certain kind of person to seek new life, work and adventure in other countries.”
I have no problem with that, but opening the borders en masse was and is just stupid and it is going to lead to the collapse of the EU at best and potentially another war in Europe.
It has already damaged the EU project which is not about enriching bloodstock (does that term make anyone else cringe or is it just me?), but about enriching the worlds wealthiest who invest in the bonds of EU countries and who will lose hundreds of billions when the EU project fails.
The pressure that will come on the UK to remain will be intense and the public will have the wits frightened out of them coming up to the vote to help stabilise the EU for the benefit of the financial markets.
As an employer I can tell you I have stopped employing foreigners after having 3 try it on with legal actions all in the wrong.
The majority are here to take advantage of free welfare, soft employment laws and generous working conditions, not for the betterment of our country. Yes, there are those who are genuine but the majority should not be here and nothing good will come out of it.
“Our children mix with a mongrel collection of multi-race, multi- cultured children at school now.”
Again, mongrel is another not so appealing term to me im afraid.
“Our hospitals are full of skilled nurses and doctors , picked from all around the world.”
Not as a result of open EU borders they aren’t. Most come from outside of the EU and I have no problem with this, it is the open EU borders I object to..
“If you wanted a united country …or come to that …a united world …this is how it will be resolved eventually .”
I don’t have a country of my own, at least one that I feel that I am considered a full part of, why would I ever want a united world?
What you are talking about is a new world order, one world government, an idea I do not support.
I suppose I truly am a nationalist.
That was a good quote from Goebbels supplied by (Lovethe)Mike a few days ago. It also could be applied to names. For example if you and your trained media continually refer to the province, the mainland, main land GB, Londonderry etc there are gobshites going about will think this must be correct so they start to use these terms. I remember hearing a teacher in a local grammar school recounting when she asked some of the pupils where they had holidayed and they answered ‘Ireland’. The ‘cheers mate’ and the ‘going forward’ brigade are very easily influenced by the media and it has now become normal to speak of Londonderry – wait til you hear