It’s a pity to have enemies and a dreadful pity to have to kill them or have yourself, your community and your descendants in their power for ever. But Ireland was fortunate that it had sons and daughters with the vision to do the necessary and the selflessness to risk and give their own lives while carrying out their tasks during Easter Week 1916 and later. We should continue honouring the 1916 insurgents, the generation which repeatedly, by elections vindicated their vision and courage and estblished a democratic republic. We should recognise and publicise the facts that defence of the Republic established in 1919 was not an insurrection and that Britain was a brutal and dishonest aggressor against a virtually unarmed people..
Ireland was thrice unfortunate in having scores of thousands of her sons fooled into fighting and killing Germans, Austrians and Turks, citizens of powers which had never offended Ireland or her people in deed or in word or in thought. They had done Ireland no wrong to be avenged nor did they offer Ireland any threat to be answered in arms. Ireland owes an apology to the people of those nations for the actions of those deluded Irishmen who so abused their peoples, although no Irish state was in existence at the time.
Britain owes the world an apology for the decade of preparation for a war on Germany during which not only the general public, but even cabinet ministers were kept in the dark, the deceit of the population before, during and after the First World War, the imprisonment, torture and murder of pacifists, and the unbroken train of murder and mayhem which has killed hundreds of millions throughout the world resulting from its supposed statesmanship.
“It’s a pity to have enemies and a dreadful pity to have to kill them or have yourself, your community and your descendants in their power for ever”
That wasn’t the choice. But even if it had been, it wasn’t a choice for the rebels to make, but for the people.
“But Ireland was fortunate that it had sons and daughters with the vision to do the necessary and the selflessness to risk and give their own lives while carrying out their tasks during Easter Week 1916 and later.”
Killing others isn’t selfless.
So do those who gather on Remembrance Sunday come to honour selfish men?
“So do those who gather on Remembrance Sunday come to honour selfish men?”
No. They remember those killed in war.
Really? I thought it was confined to honouring men who had ‘served’ inBritan’s many wars. ‘Served’ of course being a euphemism for ‘had helped with efforts to kill the enemy’. I think you’re in a teensy mental cul-de-sac, MT. Maybe best vault a convenient wall… Btw and now that I have your attention- have you any plans to make self-generated comment on this site, or have nominated yourself Critic in Chief, Angus sin é ?
“Really?”
Yes.
” I thought it was confined to honouring men who had ‘served’ inBritan’s many wars.”
This wouldn’t be the first time you’d been very wrong about something.
” I think you’re in a teensy mental cul-de-sac, MT. Maybe best vault a convenient wall… ”
I don’t follow. Do explain.
“Ireland owes an apology to the people of those nations for the actions of those deluded Irishmen who so abused their peoples, although no Irish state was in existence at the time.”
I fully agree Donal.
My own great grandfather fought in the ulster 36th and died killing for Britain in WW1.
He went in the belief that Britain had honour and would consider the support given by young Irish men of their own free will.
When that never happened, my great grandmother binned his medals which have been lost from the family.
I feel no pride whatsoever about what he did, I believe he was wrong and would have been better fighting in the rising against Britain.
That our family would have been proud off and would have remembered him favourably for.
Never trust the British or a unionist.
You would think we would have learned that by now.
More naked sectarianism. This really is a forum for open bigots.
Joe, I’d pressed the button to OK this before I took in what you’ve said. It’s straight abuse. Except you can provide some supporting comment for what you say, it’s coming down again,,,
It’s the line: Never trust the British or a Unionist.
Perhaps you would be as comfortable with someone saying: Never trust the Irish or a Republican?
It would help if you made clear who said it – in edit form I can’t tell except it’s referenced in the post…
“It’s the line: Never trust the British or a Unionist.
Perhaps you would be as comfortable with someone saying: Never trust the Irish or a Republican?”
I would love to be able to say I trust the British state or unionists such as the DUP who are in power here, but based on their past and current form I don’t.
While the British are covering up their murderous activities from the past, denying evidence that slipped through the net over national security to protect their own, while unionists continue to put the interests of occupation over the interests of the Irish people, I honestly can not say I trust any one of them.
Do you trust the Irish state or Sinn Fein Joe?
It might help if you also state why if you don’t?
Jessica – I don’t trust any government or any political party!
What you said was slightly different: never trust the British or a Unionist. Do I trust Irish people or Republicans? Yes – many of my friends are Irish and Republican. You chose to smear an entire nation and half the population of the society you live in.
That is bigotry and why I stand by my original statement.
Whether it will be tolerated by the moderator or not may confirm whether this is indeed an open forum for bigots.
Lets explore this claim of bigotry Joe,
Lets start with a definition of what is bigotry, thanks to google:
“intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.”
So my expressing my loss of trust in something or someone over past or present experiences doesn’t quite apply for starters.
While I know better than to trust the British, I do not consider them bigots. They will look after their own interests, always put themselves first but they would cooperate with anyone if it was in their advantage to do so.
They are also a very tolerant and liberal nation, in fact unionism bears little resemblance of anything actually British today.
While I also do not trust unionism, I also find it to be very sectarian and to be inextricably linked to bigotry.
I do not wish to insult people on an individual basis so I will use the political leaders who represent our communities and while nationalism is tolerant of unionisms, regular insults, annual flag burning and so on, unionism has no problem expressing blatantly sectarian behaviour.
Unionist leaders often stir up hatred usually over their sectarian orange marches or flags, you boycotted primary school children going to holy cross school throwing piss bombs at them.
Unionism is nothing but in bred bigotry.
Compromise to unionism is allowing Catholics to have human rights and our legal entitlements something we did not always have.
This alone is not equality or compromise.
It takes some brass neck for a unionist to call anyone else a bigot Joe.
A leaf out of your book, Jess:
The Irish free state were signatories to the government of Ireland Act, creating the state of Northern Ireland. They then, volte face, had a constitutional claim over the 6 counties.
Therefore: the Irish can’t be trusted.
Republicanism in Ireland was manifest in a brutal terrorist campaign.
Therefore: Republicans are all terrorists.
Just applying your logic…
I also note: “Unionism is nothing but in bred bigotry”. Obviously it is OK to throw these kind of insults around on this site (provided of course you are insulting the Brits….)
I didn’t think abuse was tolerated, Jude?
I try to curb it, I promise you, Joe. My rule of thumb is that if I spot abuse that is accompanied by an argument of some kind – e.g,, your statement ‘Therefore Republicans are all terrorists’ – I let it go. If I find abuse with nothing else, I generally reject it.
“Republicanism in Ireland was manifest in a brutal terrorist campaign.
Therefore: Republicans are all terrorists.
Just applying your logic…”
Oh no you aren’t.
As I said, if you want to judge an individual fine, but if you want to judge a group of people, then you judge them by the people who represent that group of people.
Should the nationalist parties act in the same bigoted fashion as the unionist parties do, we would be scundered and I assure you that the outrage from my community would ensure they stopped pretty damned sharp.
I am not judging unionism on what they did in the past, but how they are behaving still and what their community is prepared to tolerate.
Look at how unionists behave. their divine right to hold thousands of orange marches including where they aren’t wanted, attacking police, holy cross, harryville, bonfires, burning the Irish flag, insults from politicians, having to hold your noses, rogues and renegades and other insults. Do i need to go on?
Even in the election, it is intolerance of a nationalist first minister that drives their electorate.
Once elected, intolerance of a nationalist justice minister.
Nationalists have to tolerate thousands of sectarian marches every year, there was an annual exodus every year for decades to get away from it.
We tolerate your insults, your bigotry, flags off every lamp post in our towns all summer.
The conflict is over and has been over for some time now.
Apply whatever login you choose to what is happening today, now Joe.
Show me how nationalism is showing intolerance, I have given you plenty of examples of how unionism still proves itself incapable of tolerance.
Prove me wrong.
My Uncle Jack, aged 16 was badly wounded by a German shell in May 1916 which killed some of his shipmates on the Battlecruiser Princess Royal. His brother Ned aged about 20 was gassed during a german offensive in 1918 and sent home in expectation of death but was nursed back to health by his family. Both spent much of their lives in and out of hospitals and died,in their 60s in 1963. Their youngest brother joined the British Army between the wars, became a Senior Warrant Officer and died , aged 38 when the Japanese attacked Singaporewhen I was 6 weeks old. He had once been punished for striking a man of higher rank who made disparaging remarks about Ireland. A pity his career was spent with such enemies.
I don’t condemn him as I don’t know what induced him to join HM Forces. My Uncle Jack was
besotted with the sea and my Uncle Ned, according to my mother joined the Dublin Fusiliers
after being crossed in love. I remember them both as lovely men.
MT apparently thinks that British Officers, rank and file were all convinced that they were fighting a righteous war. It seems to me they mainly fought out of loyalty to the comrades nearest them and regarded British propaganda as rubbish.
It may be a fair point that the great powers should make apology to all those caught up in the war yet Donal only calls for apology from the British and Irish governments, suggesting a rather prejudiced view.
Also those who fought in the rising volunteered to give their lives and to kill others. Conscripts had no such choice.
British Governments had been planning the crushing of their German trade rivals for nearly 10 years before 1918 and were able, as planed, to send an expeditionary land force to France on its outbreak. The population had been conditioned by anti-German propaganda,
the Boy Scouts were prepared, the Territorial Army raised for continental service.France which had attacked Prussia in 1870 and beaten was out for revenge, encouraged by British
Governments, and Russia was bribed with the prospect of gaining Constantinople. France and Russia were expected to contribute most of the soldiers whilst British warships kept Germany’s navy, and her trade bottled up so that her people would be starved into submission. It wasn’t all over by Christmas 1914 but Britain did not need conscription for the first two years of war. Britain did not sleep-walk into war. Her conscript soldiers and most of her volunteers were not criminals but the fixed intention of crippling Germany was a crime against humanity. It is a crime which has set in train a century of calamities. If John Redmond was not a criminal he was responsible for many more deaths of human beings, including Irish ones, than Irish Republicans have been since the days of Wolfe Tone.
The 1916 insurgents saved innumerably more lives than they inflicted.
“I don’t trust any government or any political party.
What you said was slightly different: never trust the British or a Unionist.
Do I trust the Irish or Republicans? Yes – many of my friends are Irish and Republican.
You chose to smear an entire nation and half the population of the society you live in.”
And how exactly did I smear half the population of the society you live in?
Any Irish man who trusts the British especially in the context of my comments which were relating to my great grandfather choosing to fight for the British in ww1 to gain favour for Irish citizens in Ireland is a fool. And it should be clear from the context I wrote that the British meant the establishment not individuals which you choose to jump on for your own reasons.
As for not trusting unionism. Unionism makes no secret that it does not only not trust nationalism, but can barely tolerate us.
Unionist leaders have name called, insulted us, discriminated against us publically and still refuse to acknowledge any wrong doing or to reciprocate any efforts at reconciliation. Why on earth should I trust anyone who claims to support this behaviour no matter what percentage of the population it may apply to?
Get over yourself Joe or will I get the violins out for you.