Sometimes I wake at three in the morning and murmur into the darkness “What if Nelson is right?” I’m referring, of course, to Nelson McCausland, who has told readers of his blog that I am “the most sectarian journalist” he has ever come across. Naturally I reject the scurrilous charge that I’m a journalist- I have never been anything but a humble columnist . The sectarian bit, though, sometimes does set me fretting in the wee small hours.
Why, Virginia? Because the truth is, …it’s so difficult to say – I …don’t support the Northern Ireland football team. There, it’s out. The NI team flew out from the George Best Airport at the start of last week, st for Austria and then France, where they’ll participate in the European championship; and the truth is, I couldn’t care less. When they were playing a televised friendly, I spent the time clearing a blocked sink and deflea-ing the cat..
I may of course not be sectarian . OK, I don’t support the NI team but the NI team has a Catholic manager and several Catholic players. Is it possible I’m so sectarian I lose interest in a team if ANY of its players are Protestant? Pace Nelson, I don’t think so.
Besides, lots of people – tens of thousands of Irish people –don’t support the NI team, and surely they can’t all be bigots. Some don’t support it because they’re interested in other sports or none. Many, I suspect, will focus their support elsewhere during the European championship. Like myself, they don’t feel an affinity with the NI team because they don’t feel an affinity with the state of Northern Ireland.
For years, many nationalists didn’t support the NI team, not because they – the nationalists – were sectarian, but because many followers of the NI team liked to indulge in sectarian chanting. But I’m told that’s a thing of the past. I spoke to a man last week who attended a NI friendly game, and he said that soccer in Windsor Park is now transformed – it’s a friendly family affair, with young people and older people, men and women mixed together. “And there’s no more of that oul’ sectarianism stuff” he said.
That’s good to know. Marie Jones wrote a famous play A Night in November’, which dealt with the night in 1994 when Northern Ireland played the Republic of Ireland at Windsor Park. The air crackled with sectarian hatred, and the few fans from the Republic were frightened to cheer even when their team scored. And of course there were the death threats against Neil Lennon when he played for Northern Ireland.
But if I’m honest, even if the traditional sectarian element really is gone, I still can’t bring myself to rally behind the NI lads.
Why? The answer comes back to politics. Sport and politics don’t mix, we’re told, except that they do. When games are conducted between national teams, it’s political; when a competitor wins an event at the Olympic Games in Rio this summer, the flag of their country will be raised and their national anthem played. In a similar way my reason for not supporting the NI team comes back to politics. I don’t support the team because I don’t support the state.
Now before Nelson and his chums charge in to dub me not just sectarian but subversive to boot, all I’m saying is that I’m a nationalist. I’d prefer to see my country – Ireland – reunited; to do this, Ireland would need to be freed from London interference. So although I live in the part still tied to Britain, I feel greater affinity with the part of my country which is (at least nominally) free from British rule. I support the Republic of Ireland team for the same reason that Darren Gibson and James McClean opted to play for the Republic of Ireland.
And haven’t we had fun over the decades? I wouldn’t swap the thrills and spills of the Jack Charlton era for the Block Grant. That time they had the penalty shoot-out to get into the quarter-finals, when the present Mrs C retreated whimpering to the kitchen and put a cushion over her head, while the rest of us were leaping and screaming in the front room and then going totally buck mad when David O’Leary scored that winning penalty. And what about that open-topped bus the team took from Dublin airport to College Green in Dublin city centre? Remember how Jack Charlton was made a Freeman of the city, and how he said he didn’t know why the Irish were so full of thanks, his team had won nothing. Ah, happy days.You’ll have to excuse me for a moment – my eyes are welling up…
OK, better now. So. This summer I’ll again be yelling my encouragement to the Republic of Ireland team. Will I watch the NI team games? Probably, just as I’ll watch games featuring Brazil, and Argentina, and Italy and England – teams in which I have some interest, but which I wouldn’t say I support.
When the Republic of Ireland get knocked out – as they inevitably will – I’ll feel saddened and gloomy for a while, but I’ll bounce back; when Northern Ireland get knocked out – as they inevitably will – I’ll feel a slight twinge, but that’ll be it.
I know the NI exit will mean heartbreak for you and the others, Nelson, but into each life some rain must fall. Republic of Ireland fans will also have drink from the bitter cup. Even your namesake – Horatio Nelson – had to cope with an unhappy ending at the Battle of Trafalgar, when he got hit by a musket ball fired from a French ship. The English admiral found a way to ease his pain and passage from this life to the next: he turned his dying head to the ship’s captain, Thomas Hardy, and uttered those immortal words: “Kiss me, Hardy”. Hardy obliged and Nelson died.
I’m not suggesting my good friend Nelson take his cue from his one-eyed, one-armed namesake. No indeed. But maybe he could take a lead from his southern (and as I say, many northern) fellow-Irishmen. They’ll curse a bit, order another round and in no time they’ll be belting out a defiant verse of ‘The Fields of Athenry’.
Chin up, Nelson old sausage. It’s going to be a fun summer.
I feel the exact same way Jude ,not if they were the last team in the world would I support them ,and how can any nationalist play for them I just don’t understand , I don’t know who’s peddling that crap that they are not sectarian anymore because there is plenty of videos coming for the Belfast pubs coming out and them singing (up to their neck in fenian blood ) also their flag in a Loyalist flag and not the flag of any country .
I hope in the Euro’s they get tanked in every match and I too will be throwing my weight behind the Republic team or as I call them Ireland . Ole Ole Ole
The DUP do more to prove NI is a sectarian state than any loyalists behind closed doors in bars do.
I would love to see Michael O’Neill wrapped in the loyalist banner and fully embracing his support for the sectarian state before he asks any nationalist to play for or support the NI team. Not that I would be proud of him for doing so, but to see if he has any shame.
Sport is not bigger than politics except in the minds of true dedicated sports fans.
I try not to be secretly pleased when NI lose, but as I am sure many unionists feel some uncontrollable satisfaction when ROI lose, I also struggle to wish the NI team any success.
I could post the words but it would not be honest or genuine.
I despise everything about the NI state including its football team
The sad truth is, it is a sectarian division in Ireland and sectarianism will exist while this division exists.
“how can any nationalist play for them I just don’t understand ”
Jarlath, I think the main reason why nationalists play for NI (usually when they’re not approached by the ROI team) is the same reason why many Unionists/Protestants play for the Irish national rugby team and that is to further their careers. James McClean played for NI before he was offered a place in the ROI squad and James is very Republican. Neil Lennon played for NI and got death threats, I may be wrong but I think Lennon was even the Captain of the NI squad.
I personally think its just stupid having two Irish football teams. Even George Best supported an All Ireland football team.
“Like myself, they don’t feel an affinity with the NI team because they don’t feel an affinity with the state of Northern Ireland.”
Why would any Irish nationalist feel any affinity with the state of Northern Ireland while the DUP and unionism keep everything Irish and which we do have an affinity with, out of it?
But is Nelson saying not supporting the NI team which I don’t is sectarian?
He has some neck accusing anyone by the way.
Then why am I at the same time also losing interest in the ROI football team and in fact the ROI in general?
I am going to try not to mope about this anymore, but neither state really has any affinity to me over recent times and I couldn’t care less about either team at the moment.
What will inevitably happen though, when the games start and I see the team playing to my anthem and under my flag, the affinity will return.
For nationalists, that will be the ROI team. For unionists it will be the NI team.
That is not sectarian, that is supporting your national side, or at least the closest thing to it for people like us who don’t have a clear cut nation of our own.
jessica
“But is Nelson saying not supporting the NI team which I don’t is sectarian?”
As far as I know he hasn’t said that.
But that shouldn’t prevent us from criticising him for it anyway.
Nationalists tend not to support the NI football team because they don’t identify with the NI state. Yet unionists generally are content to support the Ireland rugby team despite not identifying with an all-Ireland concept. It would seem nationalists are more bitter than unionists, despite the bad press that the latter get.
Or perhaps if they didn’t support the All Ireland rugby team they wouldn’t have a rugby team to support at all, eh?
If that’s what it takes to unify us then let’s have an All Ireland football team too.
Just imagine that! Arm in arm with each other cheering on a side that all (?) can get behind.
The bars and fan zones hiving with joviality in one unified voice like with rugby.
“Or perhaps if they didn’t support the All Ireland rugby team they wouldn’t have a rugby team to support at all, eh?
If that’s what it takes to unify us then let’s have an All Ireland football team too.
Just imagine that! Arm in arm with each other cheering on a side that all (?) can get behind.
The bars and fan zones hiving with joviality in one unified voice like with rugby.”
Well, it was the South that broke away.
Let’s have a united British Isles team, then.
“Let’s have a united British Isles team, then.”
If that is what the people on both islands want, why not?
If rugby fans and the IRFU want to have 2 teams instead of one, that is also fine.
I would love to see an all island Ireland football team, but how should we find out what the people want if we don’t talk about it and how to make it acceptable to all?
You’re the one who brought up the All Ireland mention of a sports team.
Let’s stay on topic.
Would you not support an All Ireland football team?
“You’re the one who brought up the All Ireland mention of a sports team.
Let’s stay on topic.
Would you not support an All Ireland football team?”
I guess it would depend on how it came about. Why?
I support the all-Ireland rugby and cricket teams.
“I guess it would depend on how it came about.”
And what way would you consider it to be acceptable for it to come about MT?
“And what way would you consider it to be acceptable for it to come about MT?”
In the event of a ‘united Ireland ‘ or with the agreement of the two associations and fans.
You’ve said you support an All Ireland Rugby and Cricket teams, so would you support an All Ireland football team too?
“You’ve said you support an All Ireland Rugby and Cricket teams, so would you support an All Ireland football team too?”
I’ve already answered that, even though I’m not clear about the relevance of the question.
I can see nowhere you answered said question.
MT, could you give us a brief explanation on why the south broke away. Was there any justification for them breaking away and what would you propose to do to reconcile those issues and to bring the two football associations together again.
“MT, could you give us a brief explanation on why the south broke away. Was there any justification for them breaking away and what would you propose to do to reconcile those issues and to bring the two football associations together again.”
There was no break away, There were 2 all island bodies. Judes cousin knows a lot about it, from memory I think the Dublin body was formed because of discrimination in who could play and then the Dublin body requested later the two be separated by FIFA to stop the north poaching players.
Ironic isn’t it.
“There was no break away,”
Eh? Yes there was
“There were 2 all island bodies.”
That was *after* the breakaway! Both bodies claimed to have jurisdiction over the whole island. But the Southern body had to relinquish their claim to gain admission to FIFA.
“MT, could you give us a brief explanation on why the south broke away. Was there any justification for them breaking away and what would you propose to do to reconcile those issues and to bring the two football associations together again.”
They resented what they saw as northern bias vis-a-vis team selection and venue selection.
“They resented what they saw as northern bias vis-a-vis team selection and venue selection”
MT, in your opinion was there northern bias vis-a-vis team selection and venue selection ?
Do you think that there was any real justification for regional football associations outside of Belfast to break away ?
“MT, in your opinion was there northern bias vis-a-vis team selection and venue selection ?
Do you think that there was any real justification for regional football associations outside of Belfast to break away ?”
Team selection is doubtful. There would have been no benefit in not selecting the best players. The reality was thst the best teams and players at that time were overwhelmingly from the north.
Venue selection, again, Belfast was the main football city with the biggest attendances. Nonetheless some internationals were played in Dublin.
No need for a breakaway. The IFA management reflected the relative strength of each region. Belfast/Ulster consequently had the greatest representation. Though ironically Leinster was growing more rapidly at the time and would eventually have outnumbered the northern delegates.
“Let’s have a united British Isles team, then”
MT, what makes you think 50 million English, about 6 million Scots and 4 million Welsh would want their teams abolished and formed into a “British Isles Team”? That’s not taking into account over 5 million Republic fans either. No one wants such a team. If such a team existed there wouldn’t be a single squad member from NI in it, the same could maybe be said of the Scottish team too because there’s better players in the England, the Republic and the Wales teams. It would basically be an England team with a few Welsh and Irish players. (Not to mention half the England squad qualifies to play for the Republic)
On the other hand a poll done by, I believe, the Belfast Telegraph showed that over 50% of Protestants here in NI (Protestants were the target of the poll) supported an All Ireland football team.
Even the term “British Isles” is out of date, since the Republic was formed. The British Government even admitted that.
“MT, what makes you think 50 million English, about 6 million Scots and 4 million Welsh would want their teams abolished and formed into a “British Isles Team”?”
Nothing. Just as nothing makes me think NI fans would want their team abolished. ROI fans would probably view it as a takeover.
“Nothing. Just as nothing makes me think NI fans would want their team abolished. ROI fans would probably view it as a takeover.”
I don’t think any team should be abolished while there is support for it.
I do think the ROI team should be changed to Ireland and to officially represent all parts of the island though.
That would be more reflective of the reality. People in the north are entitled to Irish citizenship in the republic, why should we not be officially represented by the team? Calling the football team republic of Ireland is wrong.
There is no reason not to have 2 teams, just allow us to choose which represents us, is that not what the GFA is about, choice?
“I don’t think any team should be abolished while there is support for it.
I do think the ROI team should be changed to Ireland and to officially represent all parts of the island though.”
These are two contradictory statements. The latter would not be possible without abolishing the NI team.
“That would be more reflective of the reality. People in the north are entitled to Irish citizenship in the republic, why should we not be officially represented by the team? Calling the football team republic of Ireland is wrong.”
Again, you make no sense. The current situation does represent the reality, ie two teams just as there are two jurisdictions. People in the north with southern citizenship can and do already play football for the South.
“There is no reason not to have 2 teams, just allow us to choose which represents us, is that not what the GFA is about, choice?”
If you’re referring to Southern citizenship, people in the north have always been able to acquire it, long before the GFA.
“I don’t think any team should be abolished while there is support for it.
I do think the ROI team should be changed to Ireland and to officially represent all parts of the island though.”
These are two contradictory statements. The latter would not be possible without abolishing the NI team.”
No they are not.
Northern Ireland consists of two traditions, British and Irish.
The NI soccer team represents the British tradition, it plays under the British anthem and the loyalist banner.
The ROI team represents the Irish people, it plays under the tri colour and Irish anthem which represents the whole Irish nation noth included.
You struggle with the concept the north is not one people but two. We have little or nothing in common other that we live on the same island MT.
To be honest, I don’t think unionism has much in common with the British people on the other island either.
Your whole ethos is British separatism and you have isolated yourselves not only in Ireland but within the British isles.
I want no part of it, you talk only for British separatism, nit the people in the north. Don’t forget that MT.
I don’t even see anyone backing up your extreme views here, you are flying solo my friend.
You represent only bigotry and hate and are of a dwindling section of the population here.
Your day has passed.
“Even the term “British Isles” is out of date, since the Republic was formed. The British Government even admitted that.”
Interesting point Ryan, I never even about that.
A new name could be part of a new start. A new Ireland and a new relationship with Britain, all positive though. Finally, an end to all historic animosities between out peoples.
“Nothing. Just as nothing makes me think NI fans would want their team abolished. ROI fans would probably view it as a takeover”
But over 50% of Protestants DO want the NI team abolished MT and many of those Protestants actively support the NI team at present but would rather have an All-Ireland team, George Best was one of them.
I’m a ROI fan and I wouldn’t view it as a takeover…..
“Nationalists tend not to support the NI football team because they don’t identify with the NI state. Yet unionists generally are content to support the Ireland rugby team despite not identifying with an all-Ireland concept. It would seem nationalists are more bitter than unionists, despite the bad press that the latter get.”
Of course the nationalist community harbours bitterness MT.
Both communities suffered in the conflict, it was unionism that started it for heavens sake.
Every single death in the conflict is ultimately down to unionism starting the conflict in the first place.
Until unionism is capable of acknowledging its role and playing a full part in reconciliation, that bitterness is not going to go away.
Sinn Feins reaching out may be helping young people from the unionist community, but the unionist parties are doing shamefully little to return the favour to young nationalists.
They are just pushing it onto another generation, but unionism will have to address this at some point.
It simply cannot be swept under the carpet.
“Of course the nationalist community harbours bitterness MT.”
Indeed. And if attitudes to sporting teams are a barometer, it would seem more bitterness than the unionist community.
“Indeed. And if attitudes to sporting teams are a barometer, it would seem more bitterness than the unionist community”
Quite possibly, but while reconciliation is not even on the unionist agenda, why concern yourself with it.
I don’t subscribe to the fact “they don’t identify with the NI” as the sole reason for Nationalists not supporting the NI football team – perhaps, Nationalists are alienated by the fact that weren’t welcome for a long time at Windsor Park – the bitterness, sectarian, hateful demeanour of some
Sections of supporters, albeit, a minority – can you cite an example whereby Unionists were never felt welcome at an Irish Rubgy International game ? Where, they were subjected to abuse and vile chants? Wbats you view, MT on all All Ireland football team – would this not solve the problems as unionists seem “Content” with rugby. Why not “content” with football?
Ah!! MT BUT are unionists content to consider the concept of an all Ireland football team? Ask yourself where the bitterness lies there.
“Ah!! MT BUT are unionists content to consider the concept of an all Ireland football team? Ask yourself where the bitterness lies there.”
Are nationalists content to consider the concept of two Irish rugby teams?
Why would you want to cause division by splitting up a successful rugby team?
Seems counterproductive and divisive.
“Why would you want to cause division by splitting up a successful rugby team?
Seems counterproductive and divisive.”
So would the same login not apply to a country Michael.
Neither part of this island can reach its potential while divided.
Would you not agree?
“Why would you want to cause division by splitting up a successful rugby team?
Seems counterproductive and divisive.”
I wouldn’t. Though it hasn’t been particularly successful. Ironically two football teams have enjoyed more success than one rugby team.
“I wouldn’t. Though it hasn’t been particularly successful. Ironically two football teams have enjoyed more success than one rugby team.”
It would depend what you consider a success to be MT.
For me if Rugby wins the bid to host the 2023 world cup, it will be the greatest sporting achievement Ireland has ever made and it would unite this island more than any event I can imagine possibly could.
Only by working together can be achieve our full potential.
“For me if Rugby wins the bid to host the 2023 world cup, it will be the greatest sporting achievement Ireland has ever made and it would unite this island more than any event I can imagine possibly could.”
“Only by working together can be achieve our full potential.”
By the same logic the British Isles winning the bidsfor the 1991 and 1998 rugby world cups was the greatest sporting achievement the British Isles has ever made.
Only by working together across these islands can we achieve our full potential.
“Only by working together can be achieve our full potential. By the same logic the British Isles winning the bidsfor the 1991 and 1998 rugby world cups was the greatest sporting achievement the British Isles has ever made.”
They may have had bigger to be honest, the Olympic games was quite an achievement.
Ireland would hardly benefit much from it though as people going to it would be on another island altogether.
I was thinking more in terms of the economy and benefit for businesses.
I don’t think our minds will ever meet MT.
We really are worlds apart.
You suggested the consideration of 2 Irish rugby teams so yes you did suggest dividing a team that everyone can support.
I’m staggered you suggest the 2 football teams have succeeded more than the All Ireland rugby team.
Setting aside the trophies the rugby team has won and the lack of trophies the football teams gave won it has also managed to unite people to support one team, standing and sometimes singing side by side in modest harmony.
Whereas having 2 football teams on such a small island that achieve little seems counter productive.
I can’t imagine that nationalists would see any sense in two separate Irish rugby teams. Is there a good reason to break up something that seems to be good for Ireland ? Is there anything happening within the rugby associations that is comparable to the reasons why soccer on this island split ?
“I can’t imagine that nationalists would see any sense in two separate Irish rugby teams.”
By the same logic many unionists would see sense in two separate teams, yet support the all-Ireland team anyway.
“Is there a good reason to break up something that seems to be good for Ireland ?”
I don’t know. Southerners did it in football.
“Is there anything happening within the rugby associations that is comparable to the reasons why soccer on this island split ?”
Yes, actually. The sport being headquartered in the south and a suspicion of southern bias: the equivalent of why the South broke away in football.
“Yes, actually. The sport being headquartered in the south and a suspicion of southern bias: the equivalent of why the South broke away in football.”
And there was me thinking the southern bias was more in support of unionism and focussing too much on the scrutiny of republicanism.
I have to say MT, I hope that your views would not be typical within unionism as if they are, unification really is going to have to be negotiated over your heads.
There is only so long the hand of friendship can be extended before it gets tiresome.
“I can’t imagine that nationalists would see any sense in two separate Irish rugby teams.”
“By the same logic many unionists would see sense in two separate teams, yet support the all-Ireland team anyway”
I have never heard nationalists say that there should be two separate Irish rugby teams, and I still can’t imagine that nationalists would see any sense in two separate Irish rugby teams
“Is there a good reason to break up something that seems to be good for Ireland ?”
“I don’t know. Southerners did it in football”
So you suggest that Irish rugby should become two separate entities because of a split that occurred within soccer due to northern bias vis-a-vis team selection and venue selection ? That does not make any sense !
“Is there anything happening within the rugby associations that is comparable to the reasons why soccer on this island split ?”
‘Yes, actually. The sport being headquartered in the south and a suspicion of southern bias: the equivalent of why the South broke away in football’
I understand that the current arrangements for a 32 county IRFU came from agreement among the four provincial associations. Are you suggesting that Irish rugby HQ be moved to Belfast. Would Munster and Connaught supporters not complain that it should be moved to Cork or Galway instead ?
Can you give some real examples of southern bias or even reason for suspicion ? I am not aware of such obvious bias but I would be genuinely interested to know.
One example of the reported northern bias in football was the 1921 Irish Cup semi-final between Glenavon and Shelbourne. The game was played in Belfast and ended in a draw. The normal arrangement was that the replay should have been in Dublin but the IFA insisted on replaying in Belfast. Is there really anything equivalent to this bias that has happened in rugby ?
“I have never heard nationalists say that there should be two separate Irish rugby teams, and I still can’t imagine that nationalists would see any sense in two separate Irish rugby teams”
I have never heard unionists say that there should be one Irish football team, and I still can’t imagine that unionists would see any sense plum one Irish football team.
So what’s your point?
“So you suggest that Irish rugby should become two separate entities because of a split that occurred within soccer due to northern bias vis-a-vis team selection and venue selection ? That does not make any sense !”
I’m not suggesting anything.
“I understand that the current arrangements for a 32 county IRFU came from agreement among the four provincial associations. Are you suggesting that Irish rugby HQ be moved to Belfast. Would Munster and Connaught supporters not complain that it should be moved to Cork or Galway instead ?”
I’m not suggesting anything. I simply answered your question.
“Can you give some real examples of southern bias or even reason for suspicion ?”
Of course, yes. All matches played in Dublin. Southern flag and anthem used. Failure to recognize a NI flag. Southern president invited to matches but no Northern equivalent. Many fans also complain of bias in team selection.
“One example of the reported northern bias in football was the 1921 Irish Cup semi-final between Glenavon and Shelbourne. The game was played in Belfast and ended in a draw. The normal arrangement was that the replay should have been in Dublin but the IFA insisted on replaying in Belfast. Is there really anything equivalent to this bias that has happened in rugby ?”
You do realise the war of independence was raging in Dublin I’m 1921 and it wasn’t considered safe? But, since you ask, yes: every single international is played in Dublin and when Belfast was allowed to host one match (for the first time in over 50 years).it was treated as an away match.
“I wouldn’t. Though it hasn’t been particularly successful. Ironically two football teams have enjoyed more success than one rugby team”
Surely your not referring to the NI and ROI teams MT? what “successes” are you talking about?…….The Irish rugby team has won 6 nations championships and reached the quarter finals of the Rugby World Cup, they even ranked 2nd in the World for a while and have ranked in the top 10/5 last time I looked…..
“I have to say MT, I hope that your views would not be typical within unionism as if they are, unification really is going to have to be negotiated over your heads”
That was exactly David Trimbles fear Jessica, according to President Clinton in a phone call to Tony Blair, he feared Unionism becoming an “irrelevant minority”, hence why he signed GFA and lost half his party in the process. The vast majority of Unionism disagreed with GFA, Loyalist paramilitaries only supported it due to money and prisoner releases. Clinton said Sinn Fein signed GFA once they were made aware of future Catholic demographics.
“I have to say MT, I hope that your views would not be typical within unionism as if they are, unification really is going to have to be negotiated over your heads”
What views?
The deal on unification is already done and has been for decades.it’ll happen if a majority vote for not in a referendum. There’ll be no negotiation.
“The deal on unification is already done and has been for decades.it’ll happen if a majority vote for not in a referendum. There’ll be no negotiation.”
No it hasn’t.
That is what I mean MT. Unionism thinks by keeping the animosity going, keep up the shit stirring, insults and blaming everything on nationalism, refusing to even talk about unification, somehow the Irish citizens in the north will suddenly become more British and forget about our country. It isn’t going to happen.
What will happen is eventually traditional unionism will become a minority and the rest of the island will eventually have an opportunity to come together in a joint cause. This will trigger an emotional revival of the notion of unification and unionism will be invited to participate, but will be irrelevant to the outcome if they aren’t on board.
The risk you are running is that nationalism will eventually get sick and tired of your belligerence throughout the whole of the island. Don’t forget, we are still one people and one country on this island. There is a section within unionism who are behaving like outsiders or British separatists but I believe a majority would still consider themselves Irish.
“Surely your not referring to the NI and ROI teams MT? what “successes” are you talking about?…….The Irish rugby team has won 6 nations championships and reached the quarter finals of the Rugby World Cup, they even ranked 2nd in the World for a while and have ranked in the top 10/5 last time I looked…..”
You do realise there are only ten or eleven countries in the world that play rugby seriously?
You do realise Ireland and Italy are the only two of the ten countries never to have made it to the World Cup semi-finals?
You do realise NI is the smallest country in the world to reach the World Cup football quarter-finals?
You do realise ROI has also reached the World.Cup quarter-finals?
You do realise those are far greater achievements than a few six nations wins?
“You do realise there are only ten or eleven countries in the world that play rugby seriously?”
Really? Last time I looked over 30 countries play rugby “seriously”…..
“You do realise NI is the smallest country in the world to reach the World Cup football quarter-finals?
You do realise ROI has also reached the World.Cup quarter-finals?
You do realise those are far greater achievements than a few six nations wins?”
Yes, NI last reached the World Cup back in the….1980’s? You consider that a success? I do realize ROI reached the quarter finals in the World Cup but that isn’t an achievement, MT…..loads of countries regularly reach the quarter finals of the World Cup. Indeed many consider it a failure if they don’t proceed beyond the quarter finals…..
Yes there are greater achievements than the six nations but its still an achievement. There’s also greater achievements in football than the Euros but if NI/ROI won it it would still be a great achievement, the same way its great for Ireland or England or Wales, etc to win the 6 nations.
What have the NI or the ROI team won MT? Nothing……there is no successes to speak of. That’s the cold hard facts. NI beat England and Spain once and its still being talked about 10 years later…..ROI beat World Champions Germany in the qualifiers for the Euros and it was forgot about a week later…..
“The deal on unification is already done and has been for decades.it’ll happen if a majority vote for not in a referendum. There’ll be no negotiation”
You really are naïve and, forgive me, deluded MT if you truly believe that. The GFA hasn’t even been implemented in full in the past 18 years, it wont last forever. Republicanism certainly doesn’t view it as an end. If Brexit occurs, which I hope it does, then GFA will be totally void.
I don’t know so much. As 65 year old I still remember going to Windsor Park in the sixties to watch International’s. Those were the heady days of two Catholics in the side; I remember when Pat Jennings got his first cap, oh how the Linfield supporters booed because their goalkeeper, Bobby Irvine, had been dropped in favour of Jennings.
Even with the sectarianism in the ground I still went up to 69 but self preservation kicked in after myself and a few other Catholics were recognised and chased to the Celtic Park end of the Donegal Road. Halcyon Days, as a friend of mine often calls the good old days.
As for the present team, I couldn’t be paid to watch them, I’d rather watch a club hurling match.
Unionists or Irish Protestants (to my knowledge) have never divided an all-Iteland sporting institution. The IFA is the Irish organisation. The NI team is the only team with a mix of players from all traditions and it also has the most players actually born in Ireland. Of course it’s sectarian if you prefer to support the English second cousins of Irish Catholics playing for the partitionist ROI team rather than the true all-Ireland team just because (like Rugby, Hockey, Cricket, sailing and others) it also attracts the support of, and includes, Irish Protestants. The only non-sectarian option is to support both and look forward to the day when Irish football has a single team once again, headquartered, as it always was, in Belfast.
You’ve form on this though Jude. You wouldn’t support the Ulster Rugby team either. Any movement there?
I will be wishing both teams well, why not? I expect many people will have sufficient perspective to do the same.
It would seem small minded to hope the NI team fail because some of their supporters are idiots.
So it may not necessarily be sectarian to be unable to support a team from where you live,but it is a bit pathetic,in my view.
‘So it may not necessarily be sectarian to be unable to support a team from where you live,but it is a bit pathetic,in my view’.
I know you are attempting to be deliberately provocative with that statement in labelling the overwhelming majority of Northern Nationalists as being pathetic because they have no affinity to the Loyalist flag that previously flew over Stormont or to singing God Save the Queen!
Tell me Gio, is God Save the Queen your National anthem?
Do you have an affinity to the loyalist flag which IFA flies at NI games?
I have no animosity to those players and I hope they have a good time but I suspect that I am like the vast majority of Irish men in that if I walked into a pub full of NI supporters watching their team on a TV I would feel very uncomfortable, fear for my welfare and I would finish my drink quickly and leave for a more hospitable location!
“I have no animosity to those players and I hope they have a good time but I suspect that I am like the vast majority of Irish men in that if I walked into a pub full of NI supporters watching their team on a TV I would feel very uncomfortable, fear for my welfare and I would finish my drink quickly and leave for a more hospitable location!”
Why? What would you fear? Why would it not be hospitable?
MT it quite possibly could be hospitable and I may not hear, sectarian comments or chants but I wouldn’t get much sympathy from anyone if I got a hiding for my endeavours!
If you have been verbally abused for being a Catholic, which I have or you personally know a Catholic who was attacked by a gang on the Lisburn Road and an attempt made to force them into a derelict house so the beatings can continue or perhaps murder then you may not take that chance!
There is a very close affinity between NI Rangers fans and NI Ireland fans and I have been on the Larne ferry when the Rangers fans arrived in the bar after a match and I can tell you very few Catholics would have felt comfortable there and I am sure a majority of Protestants would have been the same! There was a major exodus from the bar and that is why I would find somewhere where I could feel more comfortable to enjoy my pint and not have to look over my shoulder when I use the toilet.
Pointis
I have no affinity for the flag or anthem.
But the team is from here the players are from here, their friends and relatives are probably your neighbours. I have no difficulty in wishing them well.
I do not see the level of hate expressed here reflected in people I meet.
Where is your evidence for saying the overwhelming majority of nationalists do not wish them well?
As for being provocative, Jude’s whole piece was deliberately provocative drawing as it did on an ancient remark by McCausland.
How people feel about any football team is up to the individual.
I have no problem wishing the NI team well any more than I could wish the England team well, but I just do not see them any more as my team or representing my country.
I would like a single team that the whole country could feel represents them but that would take buy in from all sections of the country.
Until then, these divisions are real and will not be broken down by calling everyone pathetic that don’t agree with you.
It must be great to be perfect gio.
jessica
You brand the entire spectrum of unionism as fascists and you generally hurl abuse with abandon, yet you criticise me for expressing an opinion.
If you wish them well then we are agreed and together with Pointis we are proving Ryan wrong about the views of nationalist people.
If you are also able to wish the England team well then you are a better person than me.
I criticise no one for expressing an opinion, if I don’t agree with it I speak my mind, as you well know.
As I have said before, I will judge unionism collectively on the behaviour of its elected representatives not individuals and yes, I consider their insistence in a post conflict society that all blame should be levied against one community and the community that has always started the conflicts should get off squeaky clean, as sectarian hatred and bigotry at its most extreme, .
We all know everyone including both London and Dublin are afraid to upset the sabre rattlers as they are more likely to go gung ho and encourage and goad the very same working class loyalists they are so quick to brand terrorists when it suits them into killing once more.
Why are we not discussing amicably the benefits of unification to all of our people? We all know a majority on the island want it. Why do you think Sinn Fein tolerate the imbeciles such as Gregory Campbell? Because they are dangerous people in positions where they can do real harm. They are the ones everyone is waiting for really, to leave the scene, they are the wedge preventing reconciliation.
And while unionism fails so miserably to have the courage to stand up and face down these fools the way Sinn Fein have shown leadership in doing with the likewise fools in the republican community who would also take us back to conflict, then yes I will call them out on it.
Reconciliation requires commitment on both sides. The less unionism take responsibility for their actions in the past and maintain this holier than thou stance, you know the demographic change is coming, the greater the chance loyalism will react violently when it does. It will hit them like a ton of bricks that they somehow never saw coming.
The peace process is not a game, unionism needs to be forced into maturity and international pressure applied until it takes responsibility for its actions past and present. We are pandering to a big blubbering baby clinging to historic sectarian traditions like a child to its comfort blanket.
Enough is enough.
“If you are also able to wish the England team well then you are a better person than me.”
Gio, there was a time in my life where my hatred of the English was so intense, I swear I could have happily nuked the whole country.
Thankfully I have now matured and I work with English people in GB daily.
I find them to be lovely people, very friendly towards the Irish and I have no problem wishing them well in the euros at all.
As I said, when I see my flag and hear my nations anthem my heart will kick in and my support will be for the Irish team – not by conscious decision but by emotional attachment.
When I see the loyalist flags and hear the british anthem when NI play, again, my heart will kick in and I will support the other side. Again, not by conscious decision but emotional detachment beyond my control.
I don’t follow soccer at all and could barely name you a player so I don’t really think about it until the anthems at the start of the match. If that makes me pathetic bigoted or whatever then so be it.
Soccer is not a sport I could follow all the time.
If only Armagh football could return to its past levels of success. One all Ireland is hard to swallow out of all the years we physically dominated the field.
Glimmers of hope from the minors but it will be some time before those days return unfortunately.
Gio,
Are you now attempting to distance yourself from your original statement?
‘So it may not necessarily be sectarian to be unable to support a team from where you live,but it is a bit pathetic,in my view’.
So in your view, written above, anyone from the North who doesn’t support the N.Ireland soccer team is pathetic!
That is a very emotive statement to make about a huge number of people “from here, their friends and relatives are probably your neighbours”!
I am sure that the vast majority of Irish people like me would wish the N.Ireland team well but that does not mean that they support the N. Ireland team and I am sure that those from the North would be interested to know that it is not just Nelson McCausland who hold adverse views about them because of their views.
Pointis
Distance myself?? Ulp, easy there Petrocelli.
I suppose support is not the right word. If you are saying you wish them well then we are more or less in agreement.
It is the inability of some to find the generosity of spirit to even wish them well which I find a bit pathetic.
But as the kids say, haters gonna hate!
“I suppose support is not the right word. If you are saying you wish them well then we are more or less in agreement.”
Sure why not just call everyone pathetic anyway gio?
Sure you think everyone here are Sinn Fein supporters when there are plenty here saying they have never supported of have had enough of their softly softly approach towards unionism.
Many now are asking for a more hard line party to represent us instead of Sinn Fein. Our own Irish Independence Party something that would make unionism baulk would be pleasing to me.
jessica
Eh?
I made it fairly clear that it is those with a particular attitude I find pathetic, certainly not everybody.
Try reading what people say.
And, by the way, you are no stranger to the blanket condemnation yourself!
“Eh?”
You sound more like MT every day gio.
jessica
“You sound more like MT every day gio”
I thought I was Argenta?
Are you saying I am MT too. I am very busy!
Gio,
“Where is your evidence for saying the overwhelming majority of nationalists do not wish them well?”
I think your forgetting Gio that your talking to Nationalists, we would obviously know the feeling of our own community better than any Unionist.
The NI team is certainly not popular in the Nationalist community, that’s common knowledge and always has been. So it is a fair statement to make that the vast majority of nationalists would not wish them well. Would they wish them any ill will? I don’t think so but Nationalists are wary these days of saying anything in support of the NI team because we know Unionists will delude themselves and twist it to make out its open support for the NI Team and the Union.
I’m very impressed by your connection to the hive mind where everybody is in agreement about everything ,but that is not really evidence
Nelson referring to anyone else as ‘the most sectarian journalist’!
Now that takes some brass neck.
We should be told how much Denis O’Brien money Nelson gets for his weekly poison pen column.
Has anyone questioned him about taking money from a southern Ireland outfit? Surely no ordinary decent bigot like Nelson would not take such thirty dirty pieces of silver!
Or maybe we should just follow the unionist intent for yourself, Jude, and censor him, nay, banish him from radio, TV and print media.
That would at least give us a peaceful summer marching season!
There is NO NI rugby team for Unionists to support its based on an All Island context, which is probably why is has not been affected by sectarianism, which is why Unionist/protestants can and do support the Ireland rugby team. The same cannot be said for NI soccer, now there is a clue in all of that somewhere about an All Ireland soccer team, and it has nothing to do with “Nationalists being more bitter”!!
I’d agree with most of what you’re saying, I’d support the Republic of Ireland long before NI, as I’d prefer to watch a team composed of Irish men from all corners of the island, not just an artificial construct of 6 counties.
I’d have to say fair play to NI and Michael O’ Neill though, he’s a cracking manager and the job he did with Shamrock Rovers was amazing, first Irish club (north and south) to ever reach the group stages of a European tournament. Also, I think the IFA have done a good job in trying to stamp out the sectarianism over the past 20 years.
The problem I think NI might have in this tournament is shock; the continental teams seem to be able to raise their game by 2 or 3 gears in a big tournament and might just blow NI out of the water, a bit like how the Republic found themselves faring 4 years ago.
“I’d agree with most of what you’re saying, I’d support the Republic of Ireland long before NI, as I’d prefer to watch a team composed of Irish men from all corners of the island, not just an artificial construct of 6 counties.”
So does that mean you only started supporting ROI after the player-poaching of NI players began, about ten years ago?
In what way is NI any more of an artificial construct than ROI, or any other country for that matter?
“So does that mean you only started supporting ROI after the player-poaching of NI players began, about ten years ago?”
Except they didn’t poach any players, the players chose to play for them. The idea that the FAI is some sort of football player kidnapping machine is a myth, promoted by peeved off NI fans who can’t accept that people from Northern Ireland choose to play for the Republic. It’s also a bit silly, considering some of the heroes of the current NI team (Will Grigg, Oliver Norwood, Lee Hodson, Alex Bruce) are about as Northern Irish as Yorkshire Pudding.
Plus, I’d have to say, if they’d been offered a cap by the Republic before NI approached them, I’d imagine Paddy McCourt, Niall McGinn, Liam Boyce and others would’ve been delighted for the call up to represent the Republic.
“In what way is NI any more of an artificial construct than ROI, or any other country for that matter?”
I’ll keep it brief as we all know our history, but NI was created as gerrymandered state, manipulated by an ill advised sectarian headcount.
Despite the fact that now, 4 out of the 6 counties have nationalist majorities and 3 out the 4 cities arguably have Nationalist majorities, I see little point in it, even less so when you consider the fact that the bulk of the Unionist vote (circa 50-60%) lives in a small geographically concentrated area in East Antrim and North County Down.
“Except they didn’t poach any players, the players chose to play for them. The idea that the FAI is some sort of football player kidnapping machine is a myth, promoted by peeved off NI fans who can’t accept that people from Northern Ireland choose to play for the Republic. It’s also a bit silly, considering some of the heroes of the current NI team (Will Grigg, Oliver Norwood, Lee Hodson, Alex Bruce) are about as Northern Irish as Yorkshire Pudding. Plus, I’d have to say, if they’d been offered a cap by the Republic before NI approached them, I’d imagine Paddy McCourt, Niall McGinn, Liam Boyce and others would’ve been delighted for the call up to represent the Republic.”
Why didn’t you answer the question? Did you only start supporting ROI after they began picking NI players?
“I’ll keep it brief as we all know our history, but NI was created as gerrymandered state, manipulated by an ill advised sectarian headcount.”
It wasn’t created as a gerrymandered state. Or, if it was, then so too are all states created as a result of self-determination, including ROI.
“Why didn’t you answer the question? Did you only start supporting ROI after they began picking NI players?”
I’ve been supporting the Republic since I was about 5 or 6, around the age I got into football.
Cemented that support growing up in NI. Like I said before, I’m glad to see NI doing well, (best game of football I ever saw was the 5 – 3 win against Austria in 95 at Windsor Park) but when it comes to choosing an Ireland side to support, it would be the Republic over Northern Ireland.
Curiously, would you support or have any interest in the Republic of Ireland if they were the only team from Ireland who made it France?
If the FAI said ‘screw it, we made a mistake’ and folded, merged back with the IFA and all of a sudden Michael O’Neill was packing his side with Hoolahan, Hendrick, Long, O’Shea, McClean (gulp), Randolph and Walters alongside Davis, Evans and McNair, would you still support that team?
“It wasn’t created as a gerrymandered state. Or, if it was, then so too are all states created as a result of self-determination, including ROI”
Come on MT, NI is a complete bollocks of a mistake. By the logic NI was created then, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh and South Down should just break off and create their own state or join the Republic now. As Ed Moloney wrote in ‘The Secret History of the IRA’;
“Had the architects of the 1921 settlement set out to create an inherently unstable entity, they could scarcely have done better than to design Northern Ireland in the way they did.”
“I’ve been supporting the Republic since I was about 5 or 6, around the age I got into football.”
So your support for them predates the period when they began picking northern players and therefore you told lies when you said you supported them because the team included players from all corners of Ireland.
“Curiously, would you support or have any interest in the Republic of Ireland if they were the only team from Ireland who made it France?”
I would have an interest and would like to see them do well for the friends I know in the South who support their team. A similar attitude that I have towards the other British Isles teams.
“If the FAI said ‘screw it, we made a mistake’ and folded, merged back with the IFA and all of a sudden Michael O’Neill was packing his side with Hoolahan, Hendrick, Long, O’Shea, McClean (gulp), Randolph and Walters alongside Davis, Evans and McNair, would you still support that team?”
I refer to the answer I already gave.
“Come on MT, NI is a complete bollocks of a mistake. By the logic NI was created then, Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh and South Down should just break off and create their own state or join the Republic now. As Ed Moloney wrote in ‘The Secret History of the IRA’”
The people living in those places don’t want to do that.
“Had the architects of the 1921 settlement set out to create an inherently unstable entity, they could scarcely have done better than to design Northern Ireland in the way they did.”
Yes the border was poorly drawn. But there are many poorly drawn borders around the world and they don’t mean the states either side are artificial.
@ MT
“therefore you told lies when you said you supported them because the team included players from all corners of Ireland.”
Errr, except I didn’t. Having players from all corners of the isle is a reason for supporting them, as is being from Ireland, pretty much the same as why most normal people support their team. Also, over the decades, plenty of players have played for the Republic, having been born in the North.
The fact that so few did so in the 80’s/ 90’s was probably because:
a) Northern Ireland were better in the 70’s/ 80’s and qualified for 2 world cups, the biggest stage in football.
b) By the 90’s, most “Nationalist leaning” players arguably wouldn’t have gotten a game for the Republic.
“I refer to the answer I already gave.”
Except you didn’t really give an answer, you just said “I would have an interest…A similar attitude that I have towards the other British Isles teams”
Therefore, you’d give a United Ireland team the same amount of support as Wales, England and Scotland? Does that mean you give Northern Ireland the exact same level of support as the British teams now? Doesn’t sound like much.
“The people living in those places don’t want to do that.”
The majority of people in those areas consistently vote for anti Union parties. In the absence of a border poll, I’d say that’s enough evidence they don’t want to be part of the union.
“Yes the border was poorly drawn. But there are many poorly drawn borders around the world and they don’t mean the states either side are artificial.”
So it had a drawn border, based on a combination of counties that had never existed as a grouping before, designed to create a permanent Unionist majority, separate from the poorer South.
Over the history of the NI state, the Unionist population has decreased and become more geographically concentrated. The bulk of them now live in a narrow corridor between Larne and north County Down. Northern Ireland has no monetary power and minimal fiscal power. It’s GDP per capita is nearly half that of the Republic’s and bar the credit boom in the mid naughties, it’s economy has arguably been stagnant since the GFA.
Seems artificial to me.
“Errr, except I didn’t. Having players from all corners of the isle is a reason for supporting them, as is being from Ireland, pretty much the same as why most normal people support their team.”
You said you supported the South because you’d prefer to watch a team composed of Irish men from all corners of the island. Yet now you admit to supporting them before they started selecting NI players.
Most “normal” people support the team representing the country in which they live and were brought up. You support a team representing different country.
“Also, over the decades, plenty of players have played for the Republic, having been born in the North.”
Really? How many during the period from when you started supporting them until they began selecting NI players with Darren Gibson.
“The fact that so few did so in the 80’s/ 90’s was probably because: a) Northern Ireland were better in the 70’s/ 80’s and qualified for 2 world cups, the biggest stage in football. b) By the 90’s, most “Nationalist leaning” players arguably wouldn’t have gotten a game for the Republic.”
Two contradictory reasons!
The reason was because the FAI respected the IFA’s jurisdiction over players from NI. Before they decided under cover of the GFA to end that policy of friendship and respect.
“Except you didn’t really give an answer”
Yes I did.
” you just said “I would have an interest…A similar attitude that I have towards the other British Isles teams””
That’s not what I said. That was an answer to a different question.
“Therefore, you’d give a United Ireland team the same amount of support as Wales, England and Scotland?”
Your conclusion is based on a false premise and thus wrong.
“Does that mean you give Northern Ireland the exact same level of support as the British teams now? Doesn’t sound like much.”
You appear to be very confused. I’ve no idea where you’re drawing these bizarre suggestions from.
“The majority of people in those areas consistently vote for anti Union parties.”
I know. Parties opposed to repartition.
“In the absence of a border poll, I’d say that’s enough evidence they don’t want to be part of the union.”
Me too. But that doesn’t mean they support repartition.
“So it had a drawn border, based on a combination of counties that had never existed as a grouping before, designed to create a permanent Unionist majority, separate from the poorer South.”
A strange way to put it, but yes the concept of self-determination involves drawing borders between areas with majorities of different peoples either side.
“Over the history of the NI state, the Unionist population has decreased and become more geographically concentrated. The bulk of them now live in a narrow corridor between Larne and north County Down. Northern Ireland has no monetary power and minimal fiscal power. It’s GDP per capita is nearly half that of the Republic’s and bar the credit boom in the mid naughties, it’s economy has arguably been stagnant since the GFA.Seems artificial to me.”
Presumably you consider other areas of other countries with relatively weak economic performance also to be artificial. I don’t.
“You said you supported the South because you’d prefer to watch a team composed of Irish men from all corners of the island. Yet now you admit to supporting them before they started selecting NI players.”
Yep, it’s called supporting Ireland. They have players from all over Ireland playing for them, and always have done so. There’s a list on wikipedia you can check to see players who’ve done so from the North and as for players in the 80’s/ 90’s, such as Alan Kernaghan, pre GFA.
“Most “normal” people support the team representing the country in which they live and were brought up. You support a team representing different country.”
A bit ignorant MT, the Republic is hardly a ‘different country’ and you know this.
“Two contradictory reasons!”
I don’t see any contradictions, can you clarify?
“The reason was because the FAI respected the IFA’s jurisdiction over players from NI. Before they decided under cover of the GFA to end that policy of friendship and respect.”
Players from the North could always have played for the Republic. There’s a pretty good blog by a Derry City fan (can’t remember his name) who goes over this thoroughly.
Friendship and respect? If a player wants to play for the Republic and is good enough, they are perfectly entitled to play for them.
“You appear to be very confused. I’ve no idea where you’re drawing these bizarre suggestions from.”
Only confusion I have is with your responses.
I asked:
“Curiously, would you support or have any interest in the Republic of Ireland if they were the only team from Ireland who made it France?”
You said:
“I would have an interest and would like to see them do well for the friends I know in the South who support their team. A similar attitude that I have towards the other British Isles teams.”
And with regards my question:
“If the FAI said ‘screw it, we made a mistake’ and folded, merged back with the IFA and all of a sudden Michael O’Neill was packing his side with Hoolahan, Hendrick, Long, O’Shea, McClean (gulp), Randolph and Walters alongside Davis, Evans and McNair, would you still support that team?”
You’re answer was:
“I refer to the answer I already gave.”
Not very clear MT.
“A strange way to put it, but yes the concept of self-determination involves drawing borders between areas with majorities of different peoples either side.”
Even stranger is to carve up an Island, cut up part of a province and form a new state on the basis of religion, despite the state never having any historical basis. An artificial state.
“Presumably you consider other areas of other countries with relatively weak economic performance also to be artificial. I don’t.”
Only artificial states, born out of sectarian headcounts and lost economic prosperity. Like Northern Ireland.
“Yep, it’s called supporting Ireland. They have players from all over Ireland playing for them, and always have done so. ”
That’s untrue. From c. 1950 until the early 2000s they only selected Southern players. You supported the South during that period, therefore your stated reason (prefer watching a team composed of Irish men from all corners of the island) can’t be true otherwise you’d only have begun supporting them when they began selecting NI players.
“There’s a list on wikipedia you can check to see players who’ve done so from the North and as for players in the 80’s/ 90’s, such as Alan Kernaghan, pre GFA.”
Kernaghan was qualified to play for the South through his grandparents.
“A bit ignorant MT, the Republic is hardly a ‘different country’ and you know this.”
Of course it is. You might notice the road markings change when you cross the border. Southern Irish independence was hard won. The fact remains that you dont support the team of the country you’re from but that of another. That’s not “normal in football terms.
“I don’t see any contradictions, can you clarify?”
Goodness. You try to claim the South didn’t pick NI players in the 80s because the NI team was betree than the Southern team. Yet in the 90s they didn’t pick them because the Southern team was better than the Northern team!
“Players from the North could always have played for the Republic.”
Exactly. Yet they weren’t picked until the South’s policy changed under cover of the GFA.
“Friendship and respect? If a player wants to play for the Republic and is good enough, they are perfectly entitled to play for them.”
I know. But that doesn’t alter the fact that prior to the early 2000s the friendship and respect between the two associations meant that the a south honoured the territorial integrity of the IFA and didn’t pick its players.
I asked: “Curiously, would you support or have any interest in the Republic of Ireland if they were the only team from Ireland who made it France?” You said:”I would have an interest and would like to see them do well for the friends I know in the South who support their team. A similar attitude that I have towards the other British Isles teams.”And with regards my question:“If the FAI said ‘screw it, we made a mistake’ and folded, merged back with the IFA and all of a sudden Michael O’Neill was packing his side with Hoolahan, Hendrick, Long, O’Shea, McClean (gulp), Randolph and Walters alongside Davis, Evans and McNair, would you still support that team?”You’re answer was:“I refer to the answer I already gave.”Not very clear MT.
What’s not clear?
“Even stranger is to carve up an Island, cut up part of a province and form a new state on the basis of religion, despite the state never having any historical basis. An artificial state.”
Why is that arrange or artificial. If so, then the nationalist project for Irish independence was equally strange and artificial, given that it involved carving up islands, cutting up part of a Kingdom and forming a new state in the basis of religion.
“Only artificial states, born out of sectarian headcounts and lost economic prosperity. Like Northern Ireland.”
By that argument, also the Republic of Ireland, Croatia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Belgium, Kosovo, East Timor and others are artificial.
“That’s untrue. From c. 1950 until the early 2000s they only selected Southern players. You supported the South during that period, therefore your stated reason (prefer watching a team composed of Irish men from all corners of the island) can’t be true otherwise you’d only have begun supporting them when they began selecting NI players.”
Nope, as I stated before, I support the republic because I’m Irish, and they pick players from all over the Island, a true, all Ireland team.
As I highlighted earlier, they picked players from Northern Ireland long before the 2000’s, so your statement is complete rubbish.
“Goodness. You try to claim the South didn’t pick NI players in the 80s because the NI team was betree than the Southern team. Yet in the 90s they didn’t pick them because the Southern team was better than the Northern team!”
It’s fairly simple MT, what player(s) from NI would you say would have been a guaranteed first choice starter in the Republic’s team in the 90’s?
Also, the Republic didn’t just pick “Southern” players, they picked players born in England, Scotland, USA, etc.
“The fact remains that you don’t support the team of the country you’re from but that of another. That’s not “normal in football terms.”
NI isn’t normal either MT, it’s an artificial state, born out of sectarian headcount. Maybe you should read up a bit on its history and why many people from there don’t feel allegiance to support it, or in particular it’s football team.
I notice you’ve dodged the next simple question a number of times on this thread, so I’ll ask again, if you’ll kindly answer:
If the FAI disbanded and rejoined with the IFA, and an agreement was reached to play games between Dublin and Belfast under the “Ireland” banner with a team of players from all 32 counties, would you support it? If not, why not?
And I emphasise the word “support”, not just a mild “interest”.
“Why is that arrange or artificial. If so, then the nationalist project for Irish independence was equally strange and artificial, given that it involved carving up islands, cutting up part of a Kingdom and forming a new state in the basis of religion.”
The Union (Act of) was foisted upon the Island with little say from the people. The Nationalist project for Independence goes back Centuries, don’t recall there ever being a historic cry for a glorious 6 County state consisting exactly of Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh, Down and Antrim. But then again, that’s probably because it’s just an artificial construct, carved up in a brain fart.
“Nope, as I stated before, I support the republic because I’m Irish, and they pick players from all over the Island, a true, all Ireland team.”
But you must be telling porkies because you supported the South before they started selecting NI players.
“As I highlighted earlier, they picked players from Northern Ireland long before the 2000’s, so your statement is complete rubbish.”
But not after 1950 and something tells me you weren’t around before then.
“It’s fairly simple MT, what player(s) from NI would you say would have been a guaranteed first choice starter in the Republic’s team in the 90’s?”
What’s that got to do with it? The South doesn’t restrict itself only to picking players who are guaranteed first-choice starts.
“Also, the Republic didn’t just pick “Southern” players, they picked players born in England, Scotland, USA, etc.”
Yes, with family connections to the South.
“NI isn’t normal either MT, it’s an artificial state, born out of sectarian headcount.”
It is normal. And no more or less artificial than any other polity. The ROI was born out of a sectarian headcount.
“I notice you’ve dodged the next simple question a number of times on this thread, so I’ll ask again, if you’ll kindly answer:If the FAI disbanded and rejoined with the IFA, and an agreement was reached to play games between Dublin and Belfast under the “Ireland” banner with a team of players from all 32 counties, would you support it? If not, why not?”
I haven’t been asked that question before so it wasn’t possible for me to dodge it. But yes I would support the team in such circumstances.
If the IRFU voluntarily and with agreement split into two teams would you support the NI rugby team?
“The Union (Act of) was foisted upon the Island with little say from the people. The Nationalist project for Independence goes back Centuries, don’t recall there ever being a historic cry for a glorious 6 County state consisting exactly of Derry, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh, Down and Antrim. But then again, that’s probably because it’s just an artificial construct, carved up in a brain fart.”
It still remains the case that the nationalist project for Irish independence involved carving up islands, cutting up part of a Kingdom and forming a new state in the basis of religion. And therefore by your own criteria, ROI is strange and artificial.
“It still remains the case that the nationalist project for Irish independence involved carving up islands”
The Irish carved up the british isles?????
Partitioned the two islands creating the Irish sea
Really MT??
“The Irish carved up the british isles?????
Partitioned the two islands creating the Irish sea
Really MT??”
Irish nationalist did, yes. Previously we had a united British Isles. They divided us.
“Irish nationalist did, yes. Previously we had a united British Isles. They divided us”
Utterly barmy stuff MT.
“But you must be telling porkies because you supported the South before they started selecting NI players.”
Again, the Republic have selected players from NI long before Gibson, so, no I’m not telling porkies.
“What’s that got to do with it? The South doesn’t restrict itself only to picking players who are guaranteed first-choice starts.”
If you we’re a footballer, the pinnacle of professional football is generally seen as winning an international cap. If you know you aren’t good enough for one country but are eligible for a lesser one, then you’re probably going to opt to play for the lesser one. I think Niall McGinn is probably a good example of this.
“If the IRFU voluntarily and with agreement split into two teams would you support the NI rugby team?”
Depends on the terms of the split. Why would there be an NI Rugby team? There’s no historic basis for it. They might as well create a County Antrim Rugby team.
“It still remains the case that the nationalist project for Irish independence involved carving up islands, cutting up part of a Kingdom and forming a new state in the basis of religion. And therefore by your own criteria, ROI is strange and artificial.”
It’s (the nationalist project) an ongoing project that doesn’t involve carving, rather than uniting an unfair and unjust split of the Island. It is to have one system of government for the Island, a parliament for all on the Island, not a sovereign 26 county state and a pointless 6 county one.
“Utterly barmy stuff MT.”
Barmy? So are you saying the British Isles weren’t divided (they are still united) or that it wasn’t nationalists who divided them (it was unionists)?
“Again, the Republic have selected players from NI long before Gibson, so, no I’m not telling porkies.”
Again, not for the fifty preceding years before, which was the time you started supporting them. You told porkies: admit it.
“If you we’re a footballer, the pinnacle of professional football is generally seen as winning an international cap. If you know you aren’t good enough for one country but are eligible for a lesser one, then you’re probably going to opt to play for the lesser one. I think Niall McGinn is probably a good example of this.”
Yet by your own contradictory argument you said the opposite in relation to the 1980s, when the NI team was better! Why were Niall McGinn equivalents not selected then? What about the 1950s?
“Depends on the terms of the split. Why would there be an NI Rugby team? There’s no historic basis for it. They might as well create a County Antrim Rugby team.”
There would be a NI rugby team because NI is a separate jurisdiction. All-Ireland teams are the international outliers not the NI team.
“It’s (the nationalist project) an ongoing project that doesn’t involve carving, rather than uniting an unfair and unjust split of the Island. It is to have one system of government for the Island, a parliament for all on the Island, not a sovereign 26 county state and a pointless 6 county one.”
But you said NI was strange and artificial because it was formed by carving up an Island and forming a new state on the basis of religion. Yet ROI was formed in the same way and so would have been a united Ireland. It involved carving the islands to have two systems of government rather than a parliament for all on the islands.
“Again, not for the fifty preceding years before, which was the time you started supporting them. You told porkies: admit it.”
But they picked players from all over Ireland from the start, so no, I’m not telling porkies, growing up I was aware they picked players from all over Ireland, and you’re just struggling to fit a square box into a round hole. Like I said, there’s a list you can google.
The point on player selection is hardly a contradiction, it’s fairly simple logic. If I want to play to at an international tournament, and I’m a nationalist from the North, I’m going to opt for the team that’s made two world cups. Come the 90’s, the Republic were way better and NI drifted into the doldrums, hence influencing player choice. If a player knows he isn’t good enough to play for the country he’d most want to, he’ll probably take the lesser one, ie, McGinn & Northern Ireland.
“There would be a NI rugby team because NI is a separate jurisdiction. All-Ireland teams are the international outliers not the NI team.”
Not true, the NI football team is the outlier in International competition. Most major international sports have an all Ireland basis such as Rugby, Athletics, Boxing, Basketball, Cricket, etc.
For me, it boils down to what makes NI special to merit it’s own international team, which is nothing. It’s a bastard state, and utterly pointless in it’s existence. You might as well just give County Antrim it’s own Rugby team as most of the rugby in Ulster is based there anyway.
“But you said NI was strange and artificial because it was formed by carving up an Island and forming a new state on the basis of religion. Yet ROI was formed in the same way and so would have been a united Ireland. It involved carving the islands to have two systems of government rather than a parliament for all on the islands.”
The cries of Home Rule is Rome Rule were invented and trumpeted by the Unionists, not the Nationalists. The Idea of an Ireland of religious tolerance was one promoted in 1798, and repeated in 1916. The ‘religion’ card was played and always has been by the Unionists, hence the creation of NI via sectarian headcount. The disastrous John Charles McQuaid path the Republic was an unfortunate result of partition, ditto the hardline super Prod state in the north.
The ‘Parliament for the all on the Islands’ is laughable, Britain has and always will be England and it’s long conquered lands.
“But they picked players from all over Ireland from the start, so no, I’m not telling porkies, growing up I was aware they picked players from all over Ireland, and you’re just struggling to fit a square box into a round hole. Like I said, there’s a list you can google.”
Just admit that you lied. When you started supporting the South they didn’t pick northern players and hadn’t done so for decades. Originally you said you supported them because they picked players from all over Ireland: now you track back and say it was because they used to pick players from all over Ireland. But if that was your reason why would you support the South rather than the North, given that the North also used to pick players from all over Ireland? You told lies.
“The point on player selection is hardly a contradiction. it’s fairly simple logic. If I want to play to at an international tournament, and I’m a nationalist from the North, I’m going to opt for the team that’s made two world cups. Come the 90’s, the Republic were way better and NI drifted into the doldrums, hence influencing player choice. If a player knows he isn’t good enough to play for the country he’d most want to, he’ll probably take the lesser one, ie, McGinn & Northern Ireland.”
Your reasoning is completely illogical. Northerners weren’t picked by the South because they didn’t want to play for them because the North was a better team. But they weren’t picked when the South waa the better team either! So why were they picked I’m the 2000s? You’re making this up.
“There would be a NI rugby team because NI is a separate jurisdiction. All-Ireland teams are the international outliers not the NI team.”
“Not true, the NI football team is the outlier in International competition.”
It’s not. Various Ireland teams and the West Indies cricket teams are the only international sports teams I can think of that don’t represent polities.
“For me, it boils down to what makes NI special to merit it’s own international team, which is nothing. It’s a bastard state, and utterly pointless in it’s existence. You might as well just give County Antrim it’s own Rugby team as most of the rugby in Ulster is based there anyway.”
By that logic the ROI and most other states are utterly pointless and don’t merit their own international teams.
“The cries of Home Rule is Rome Rule were invented and trumpeted by the Unionists, not the Nationalists. The Idea of an Ireland of religious tolerance was one promoted in 1798, and repeated in 1916. The ‘religion’ card was played and always has been by the Unionists, hence the creation of NI via sectarian headcount. The disastrous John Charles McQuaid path the Republic was an unfortunate result of partition, ditto the hardline super Prod state in the north.”
You seem to have a very one-sided and ill-informed understanding of history if you’re unaware of the cross-fertilisation of Irish nationalism and Roman Catholicism. Indeed that was one of the very reasons that Protestants, having supported republicanism in 1798, opposed nationalism in later years.
The point remains that by your own logic – carving up geographical units on basis of religion – ROI and many other states across the world are also “strange and artificial”. It’s an odd view but at least try to apply it consistently.
“The ‘Parliament for the all on the Islands’ is laughable, Britain has and always will be England and it’s long conquered lands.”
No more laughable than the ‘parliament for all on the island’. Ireland for nationalists has and always will be nationalist, Catholic and anti-British Ireland.
“Just admit that you lied. When you started supporting the South they didn’t pick northern players and hadn’t done so for decades. Originally you said you supported them because they picked players from all over Ireland: now you track back and say it was because they used to pick players from all over Ireland. But if that was your reason why would you support the South rather than the North, given that the North also used to pick players from all over Ireland? You told lies.”
Wow, you’re really bad at this MT. I said I supported the Republic and that they picked players from all over Ireland. I highlighted how they picked players from all over Ireland for decades. What players did Northern Ireland pick who were from the Republic? Are you suggesting that as a 6/7 year old, I should have been fully aware of the delicate intricacies of partition and thus should have made my choice then?
Should I send you ticket stubs of Republic matches I’ve attended pre 2005?
Me thinks you’re really struggling with this one MT.
“Your reasoning is completely illogical. Northerners weren’t picked by the South because they didn’t want to play for them because the North was a better team. But they weren’t picked when the South waa the better team either! So why were they picked I’m the 2000s? You’re making this up.”
Really simple MT, name me some players born in NI who would have made the Republic team in the 90’s?
I’m guessing you’ll just avoid it because you’re not actually much of a football fan. Are you going to the Euros to support NI this month?
“It’s not. Various Ireland teams and the West Indies cricket teams are the only international sports teams I can think of that don’t represent polities.”
You can add Great Britain (Olympics) in that for athletics if you want. Because they don’t have a Northern Ireland team. Because they’re represented by an all Ireland team. Like in every other international sport. Except Soccer, which is the unusual one.
“No more laughable than the ‘parliament for all on the island’. Ireland for nationalists has and always will be nationalist, Catholic and anti-British Ireland.”
Being ‘anti British’ in Irish Nationalism is fairly obvious isn’t it? That’s kinda the whole point, to rule yourselves as opposed to having a foreign country rule over you? I mean, it’s a bit like saying the desire for French Nationalism is bad because it’s anti German.
There’s nothing wrong with being opposed to British Rule in Ireland. Being anti Protestant is completely different and despicable.
Ireland, post Independence became a Catholic state by population and the church’s sinister grasp for power, but it hardly became anti protestant in the same way Northern Ireland became anti Catholic.
For example, in the area I live, D6, the same area which voted overwhelmingly for Maurice Dockrell in 1918, the Protestant population has flourished and are wealthier than ever, with growing Church congregations in both the Baptist and the COI. The Catholic influence in the Republic was dealt the final death knell last year when the Republic became the first country in the world to legalise same sex marriage by popular vote.
The very pillars Unionism was founded on (fear of Catholic rule, fear of economic decline) have collapsed and thus the fickle arguments for Northern Ireland’s existence have all been eroded. Hence, I wish some local lads well but I won’t be supporting them, that’s for the Republic, a true all Ireland team.
“I said I supported the Republic and that they picked players from all over Ireland.”
No you gave that as your reason for supporting them..You lied.
“I highlighted how they picked players from all over Ireland for decades. What players did Northern Ireland pick who were from the Republic?”
Northern Ireland played lots of Southern players up to 1950. More than five times as many as the FAI picked Northerners.
“Are you suggesting that as a 6/7 year old, I should have been fully aware of the delicate intricacies of partition and thus should have made my choice then?”
I’m not suggesting anything, just calling out your lies.
“Should I send you ticket stubs of Republic matches I’ve attended pre 2005?”
What for? That would only prove your lies!
“Me thinks you’re really struggling with this one MT.”
Why?
“Really simple MT, name me some players born in NI who would have made the Republic team in the 90’s?”
You don’t even seem to be aware of your contradictory reasoning. Even if I accept that the South didn’t pick players because they weren’t good enough in the 90s, that doesn’t explain why they didn’t pick them in the 50s, 60s, 70s and early 00s.
“You can add Great Britain (Olympics) in that for athletics if you want.”
Wrong. The GB Olympic team is the UK team. Full name is Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
“Because they don’t have a Northern Ireland team. Because they’re represented by an all Ireland team.”
They’re not. The “Ireland” Olympic team represents the Republic.
“Being ‘anti British’ in Irish Nationalism is fairly obvious isn’t it? That’s kinda the whole point, to rule yourselves as opposed to having a foreign country rule over you? I mean, it’s a bit like saying the desire for French Nationalism is bad because it’s anti German.”
You seem to be unaware that hundreds of thousands of Irish people are British. So by your own argument an all-Ireland parliament must be ‘laughablr’ for being anti-British (thus not representing some of its people) if an all-British Isles parliament is ‘laughable’ for being ‘England’ and thus not representing some of its people.
“There’s nothing wrong with being opposed to British Rule in Ireland. Being anti Protestant is completely different and despicable.
Ireland, post Independence became a Catholic state by population and the church’s sinister grasp for power, but it hardly became anti protestant in the same way Northern Ireland became anti Catholic.For example, in the area I live, D6, the same area which voted overwhelmingly for Maurice Dockrell in 1918, the Protestant population has flourished and are wealthier than ever, with growing Church congregations in both the Baptist and the COI. The Catholic influence in the Republic was dealt the final death knell last year when the Republic became the first country in the world to legalise same sex marriage by popular vote.”
The Catholic population has grown in NI too so by your logic it wasn’t anti-Catholic.
“The very pillars Unionism was founded on (fear of Catholic rule, fear of economic decline) have collapsed and thus the fickle arguments for Northern Ireland’s existence have all been eroded. Hence, I wish some local lads well but I won’t be supporting them, that’s for the Republic, a true all Ireland team.”
The argument for NI’s existence, as should be the case for all countries, is the desire of the people living there for it to exist. That hasn’t changed.
You won’t support your own team because you’re small minded and petty. Turning your back on your own for the comfort zone of the South.
“What for? That would only prove your lies!”
Amazing MT, you’re really struggling with this. The extreme bitterness of knowing people from the North chose to support the Republic over Northern Ireland is showing through.
“They’re not. The “Ireland” Olympic team represents the Republic.”
Hate to highlight this to you MT, but Team Ireland has athletes from all over Ireland representing it, from North and South.
“You seem to be unaware that hundreds of thousands of Irish people are British. So by your own argument an all-Ireland parliament must be ‘laughablr’ for being anti-British (thus not representing some of its people) if an all-British Isles parliament is ‘laughable’ for being ‘England’ and thus not representing some of its people.”
More rubbish MT, and you keep going off tangent with the “by your own argument…” statements that spout more gibberish.
Pretty simple, one parliament in a united Ireland, for the island, for the people from it.
“The Catholic population has grown in NI too so by your logic it wasn’t anti-Catholic.”
Again, more of the same tangent trash.
What state treated it’s minority better, the Northern one or the Southern one?
You know the answer to this one MT.
“The argument for NI’s existence, as should be the case for all countries, is the desire of the people living there for it to exist. That hasn’t changed.”
But it is changing MT, the Northern Ireland of 2016 is very different to that of 1922 and will continue until dissipates into the dustbin of history. The only reason it still exists is because of a gerrymander to create an artificial state, the vast bulk of those who vote for the pro Union parties is now confined to a small geographical clump from Larne to North Down.
“You won’t support your own team because you’re small minded and petty. Turning your back on your own for the comfort zone of the South.”
Must be tough to despise half of the population in Northern Ireland because they support a United Ireland. As for ‘small minded’, supporting only a narrow 6 county
state instead of a full Irish team is the definition of ‘small mindedness’.
PS Are you going to the Euros to support NI?
Or are you like a lot of NI fans, just petty bandwagoners who wouldn’t have given the team the time of day when they were being trounced by the likes of Finland, Armenia and Luxembourg?
“Amazing MT, you’re really struggling with this. The extreme bitterness of knowing people from the North chose to support the Republic over Northern Ireland is showing through.”
I note you didn’t address the point or answer the question. Why would you showing me your pre-2005 tickets prove you supported the South because they had players from all over Ireland? Those tickets would only prove you were already supporting the South before they picked players from all over Ireland! And therefore conform your lies.
“Hate to highlight this to you MT, but Team Ireland has athletes from all over Ireland representing it, from North and South.”
I know, but it’s still the ROI team. The northern athletes are representing ROI.
“More rubbish MT, and you keep going off tangent with the “by your own argument…” statements that spout more gibberish.
Pretty simple, one parliament in a united Ireland, for the island, for the people from it.”
No more simple than one parliament in a united British Isles, for the islands, for the people from the island!
“Again, more of the same tangent trash.
What state treated it’s minority better, the Northern one or the Southern one?
You know the answer to this one MT.”
You’ve missed the point. You said the Protestant population had grown in ROI and offered this as evidence of how well they were treated. So by that argument the RC population in NI was treated even better since it grew even more!
“But it is changing MT, the Northern Ireland of 2016 is very different to that of 1922 and will continue until dissipates into the dustbin of history. The only reason it still exists is because of a gerrymander to create an artificial state, the vast bulk of those who vote for the pro Union parties is now confined to a small geographical clump from Larne to North Down.”
But ROI and many other countries by your logic also only exist because of a gerrymander to create an artificial state.
“Must be tough to despise half of the population in Northern Ireland because they support a United Ireland. As for ‘small minded’, supporting only a narrow 6 county
state instead of a full Irish team is the definition of ‘small mindedness’.”
I don’t despise anyone. And again you’ve missed the point. It is small-minded and petty to turn your back on your own team because it’s easier to stay in your political comfort zone. You’re unwilling to step out if that comfort zone in an effort to establish friendship or unity with your neighbours. This is in contrast to unionists who step out of their comfort zone to join with their neighbours in supporting the all-Ireland rugby team.
There is no issue with anyone exercising her/his critical faculties in order to expose the myths about this so called great wee country. Sectarianism and all its ugly manifestations will continue to be and should be exposed in order to promote equality throughout the country. Win, lose or draw, the reality of partition with all its sectarian divisions will manifest itself again in the annual tyrefest.
It was no laughing matter to listen to Theresa Villiers, Hugh Orde and a plethora of Tory and Labour politicians pontificate about the border in the context of a Brexit during the last week. Hugh Orde stated that Ms Villiers:
“continues to keep her head firmly stuck in a peat bog”.
I suspect that some in the Tory party will experience some sleepless nights also before and after 23 June 2016.
“Win, lose or draw, the reality of partition with all its sectarian divisions will manifest itself again in the annual tyrefest.”
You’re suggesting that in a ‘united Ireland’ there would be no sectarian divisions or just that they wouldn’t manifest themselves?
“You’re suggesting that in a ‘united Ireland’ there would be no sectarian divisions or just that they wouldn’t manifest themselves?”
In a united Ireland there would be no jurisdictional sectarian divisions, there would be no national identity sectarian divisions and I don’t believe there would be any religious sectarian divisions so what divisions do you foresee in a united Ireland if it was afforded proper debate and consultation among all of the people?
I am totally confident a new Ireland acceptable to all would be the result and division of the past would be accepted as wrong and steps taken to ensure they don’t happen again.
The problem with unity through numbers is the lack of buy in among all of the people. But that is a risk unionism is going to have to decide whether or not to take.
The longer it leaves it, the weaker its influence will become and the greater the nationalist resentment of their failure to engage in reconciliation will grow.
“In a united Ireland there would be no jurisdictional sectarian divisions, there would be no national identity sectarian divisions and I don’t believe there would be any religious sectarian divisions”
Goodness you really do believe a UI would be a utopia.
” so what divisions do you foresee in a united Ireland if it was afforded proper debate and consultation among all of the people?”
The same as exist now. Unless you’re proposing to deport the Ulster Protestant population.
“The same as exist now. Unless you’re proposing to deport the Ulster Protestant population.”
Explain how would that work if the new Ireland was agreed among all of the people including the Ulster Protestant population and guaranteed their liberties in full including marching the same roads they do presently?
In fact, could probably find them a few more roads to march down, including opening up the Boyne site for a proper 12th celebration without the bonfires perhaps.
“Explain how would that work if the new Ireland was agreed among all of the people including the Ulster Protestant population and guaranteed their liberties in full including marching the same roads they do presently?”
The same reason as it ‘works’ in the current Ireland agreed among all of the people including the Irish Catholics population and guaranteed their liberties in full etc.
Well said.
For clarification my “well said” comment was in response to Jessica.
I am suggesting the need for equality, a work in progress.
“I am suggesting the need for equality, a work in progress”
Where is progress needed?
“Where is progress needed?”
You know, it is really unfair that people who want to make this country a better place, to reform our public services and try to build a nation based on equality and put the past behind us are denied the opportunity of stubbornness of unionism.
Unionism is a ball and chain on this island.
“You know, it is really unfair that people who want to make this country a better place, to reform our public services and try to build a nation based on equality and put the past behind us are denied the opportunity of stubbornness of unionism. Unionism is a ball and chain on this island.”
Why didn’t you answer the question?
Where is progress needed in respect of equality?
Hi MT,
I´m sure the Scots and the Welsh love your suggetion about having an all British team. At this very moment I´m certain there are hordes of Scots and Welsh football fans secretly plotting to get GSQ reinsated as their national anthem and are very envious that a certain team besides England still has that wonderful tune when they represent their team. I think not!
“I´m sure the Scots and the Welsh love your suggetion about having an all British team. At this very moment I´m certain there are hordes of Scots and Welsh football fans secretly plotting to get GSQ reinsated as their national anthem and are very envious that a certain team besides England still has that wonderful tune when they represent their team. I think not!”
Then perhaps you’ll take the suggestion as seriously as it was intended and as seriously as the suggestion of an all-Ireland team.
My suggestion of an All Ireland team was quite serious.
We have all Ireland bodies in rugby, cricket, boxing and god knows what else, so why not football??
Why have 2 football associations on such a small island when others sports flourish in an All Ireland context?
Still avoiding answering the question if you would support an All Ireland football team
“My suggestion of an All Ireland team was quite serious.”
Why, given your valid reasons for rubbishing an all-British Isles team?
“We have all Ireland bodies in rugby, cricket, boxing and god knows what else, so why not football??”
Because the South broke away and now people in the North are happy with their own team.
“Why have 2 football associations on such a small island when others sports flourish in an All Ireland context?”
Football flourishes too.
“Still avoiding answering the question if you would support an All Ireland football team”
I didn’t avoid answering it in the first place therefore it’s not possible for me still.to be doing do.
By not answering the question you avoided answering it.
And still are.
Would you support an All Ireland football team?
Simple question
By not answering the question you avoided answering it.
And still are.
Would you support an All Ireland football team?
Simple question
Your reluctance to simply answer the question is speaking volumes.
“Would you support an All Ireland football team?
Simple question”
I’ve already answered that.
“Your reluctance to simply answer the question is speaking volumes.”
But I’m not reluctant to answer it. On the contrary, I did answer it
No MT you didn’t.
And you continue to avoid it.
Sure we’ll just leave it here then.
No MT you didn’t.
And you continue to avoid it.
“No MT you didn’t.”
Yes I did. You’re just too lazy to read the full conversation.
“And you continue to avoid it.”
The answer is there for all to read.
No MT, you danced round it as you continue to do so.
“No MT, you danced round it as you continue to do so.”
Danced around what?
I remember a few occasions going to watch George Best playing with Northern Ireland. We couldn’t return via the Broadway road as we knew we’d be identified as Taigs, so we had to return home via town! After Best, I never went back – and never will.
“I remember a few occasions going to watch George Best playing with Northern Ireland. ”
George Best was from east Belfast yet wanted an all Ireland football team.
Perhaps this is why unionism started the conflict in the first place, to drive wedge between out people. The added glue of religious intolerance only serving to make it harder to remove.
My guess is that Martin McGuinness will find no difficulty in offering his support to both teams.
As usual he appears to be lacking in the bitterness so evident in some SF supporters.
“My guess is that Martin McGuinness will find no difficulty in offering his support to both teams.”
I have no doubt Martin would wish every team from both islands well.
He is leading by example and I have every respect for him for it.
But I personally have had enough of unionist intransigence and if sectarian division is what they want, it is what they should get in my view.
The majority of unionism is over 65, they are in decline which will be steep over the next decade, the youth are the future
We should give unionism reasonable opportunity to embrace reconciliation but no more, if they refuse to accept their responsibility let them go to hell I say.
Well summed up, jude. May this pathetic statelet and all its’ trappings wither on the vine. Hopefully before I go to meet the Protestant God.
For Nelson to accuse anyone of being sectarian is pretty amusing, given he’s a member of an extremely sectarian organisation: The Orange Order. Its a bit like a KKK member accusing someone else of being a racist. As my mother always said: “When you point the finger, remember the other 3 fingers are pointing back at you”. Has there been an investigation yet into the allegations that Nelson and other DUP members blocked housing for Catholics? No? I didn’t think so. SF have been very quiet about this too but that’s not surprising given the failing reconciliation project they’re currently on.
I would never support the NI Team, why? well for the most obvious reason: I support the Republic’s team. That’s not to say I wish the NI team any ill will but if the near impossible were to happen and they won the Euros, would I be celebrating? No, I would simply give a few congratulations to supporters and continue on. If there’s any tournament where the Republic isn’t in then I would usually support the Germans or the Spanish.
Is it inevitable that the Republic will fail at the Euros? Or NI for that matter? Of course not. Last time I looked each team had equal numbers of players. As Ryanair Boss Michael O’Leary said about the Republic in the 2012 Euros: “Why don’t we just go there and win it?”. Exactly my view too. If the team tries hard enough they could do very well. The Germans and Spanish do well because they have a properly funded squad and have self belief, why cant the Irish do the same? As Alex Ferguson said about Roy Keane “If I had a squad of Roy Keanes I would win every competition there is in football”. If every Irish squad player had Roy Keanes attitude we would be serious competitors. The Irish, including the Irish people, have to stop being self defeating, stand up and fight for what we want and fight hard.
Speaking of Roy Keane, Keane talks about the NI v ROI game in 1994 in his book. He said the atmosphere was “full of hate”. Even the English born Irish players were intimidated and were puzzled by the vicious abuse from the NI fans. Keane says the NI players were playing very rough too. The Republic’s manager called the environment “very unhealthy”. Keane then talks about Linfield football club and calls them a “club of bigots”.
Will the NI team ever get Catholic support? No. When I think of the NI team I cant help thinking of bigots like Nelson McCausland or Gregory Campbell and the Unionist history/present of anti-Catholicism and I guess other Catholics think similar.
“I would never support the NI Team, why? well for the most obvious reason: I support the Republic’s team. That’s not to say I wish the NI team any ill will but if the near impossible were to happen and they won the Euros, would I be celebrating? No, I would simply give a few congratulations to supporters and continue on. If there’s any tournament where the Republic isn’t in then I would usually support the Germans or the Spanish.”
Such bitterness.
“Such bitterness”
And I’m sure your as light as a cucumber MT, as is clearly seen from your comments….
Why would I support a team that has such a bad history of hatred for Catholics? Well I say history but I still believe much of it is alive today. Why would I support a team whose fans sent death threats to its Catholic players? Why would I support a team whose fans make a “culture” of singing about being up to their knees in fenian blood? Why would I support a team that’s backed by anti Catholic bigots in parties like the DUP and UUP, who still seek to make Catholics 2nd class citizens?
And you have the cheek to call me “bitter”?…..
Argentina and Brazil do not play in the Euro’s, but by the by, as a Protestant (could have been PC and said Unionist, but lets reflect what Republicans really think) You are totally correct. I could care not a jot how the Republic do as a lot of their supporters are and have been very sectarian to a certain type of people called, Huns. Thankfully I’m not as bitter as them so don’t mind if the Republic do well, but what I will not be accepting are snidey comments, sneering that anyone who is an NI supporter is sectarian. Thankfully, like the sectarian killing machine of Republican terror gangs, those times have passed and we can all live happily ever after.
Have you been on the Kopparberg KC?
Not all Protestants are unionist. There are protestants in my family through marriage and not one is a unionist and I love and respect every one of them.
The vast majority of true sports fans are not a bit sectarian, it is usually sectarian people on both sides who get involved usually in soccer to be honest and give it a bad name. That is a Europe wide problem though.
I think the point being made is because we are one country divided, it has led to divided loyalties between both teams.
I am glad you realise the conflict is over KC. We still have to work on the happily ever after though. We are definitely not there yet but your enthusiasm is refreshing.
“like the sectarian killing machine of Republican terror gangs”
Unionists ran the sectarian killing machine and sectarian state Kopp.
85% of all Unionist targets were choose purely on the basis of religion, aka because they were Catholic. Their attempts were so crude and random they sometimes accidently murdered Protestants because they assumed a person walking from a certain area was a Catholic.
Just 30% of Republican targets is said to be sectarian. This isn’t just IRA operations but includes INLA, IPLO, OIRA, etc. The 70% were not sectarian, British soldiers, RUC, UDR, Loyalist paramilitaries, Unionist politicians, other republicans, etc.
During Unionist rule, only one amendment proposed by a Catholic MP was ever passed in the whole 50 years, which was something relating to the environment. There was not a single Catholic Minister in the whole of Unionist rule. There was never a Catholic Prime Minister of NI. The NI Prime Minister openly encouraged discrimination against Catholics repeatedly, he was fully backed by his cabinet when criticism came from the South or England. Jobs and Housing were heavily in favour of Protestants, indeed the current DUP was founded as the PUP- the Protestant Unionist Party, whose key policy was Protestant favouritism. Gerrymandering was rampant under Unionist rule. In cities like Derry a Catholic vote was worth half that of a Protestant vote.
Even today the sectarianism from Unionism continues. There’s allegations that DUP members held a meeting very recently in an Orange Hall with a Housing Association to stop houses being built for homeless Catholic families. Just this week a Unionist majority council discriminated against a minority Catholic community by withholding funding for a community centre. Invest NI has rewarded over twice as much funding to East and South Belfast compared to poverty stricken Catholic majority areas such as West and North Belfast. One of the most senior members of Invest NI was a DUP member. I could go on.
Sorry for the lecture Kopp but what were you saying about sectarianism?…..
“Argentina and Brazil do not play in the Euro’s…”
Er, we all know that. However, it seems you are unaware that the Copa América is presently being played – and guess what – they are on TV.
Thus you’ll find the original statement “…just as I’ll watch games featuring Brazil, and Argentina, and Italy and England…” very true.
….and the killing machines of loyalist terrorists as well whose victims consisted of over 90% innocent Catholics.
This appears to have become a political , Time to blow the Whistle?
A political football? Blow the whistle!
No such place as Northern Ireland .
I will be indifferent at best towards the north. I don’t care about what anthems or flags they avail off – I don’t owe allegiance to the statelet and that’s that. No amount of billboard advertising will change that.
“I will be indifferent at best towards the north. I don’t care about what anthems or flags they avail off – I don’t owe allegiance to the statelet and that’s that. No amount of billboard advertising will change that.”
This concept of “owing allegiance” (or not owing allegiance) that nationalists talk about is very quaint.