I have been torturing people on this site for some time now, either shooting from the hip and keeping it real or espousing blatant abuse depending on our point of view. And different points of view are healthy, usually…?
Over this time, my evaluation of unionism has been based primarily on the behaviour of their elected representatives who seem to have no problem treating the Irish nationalist community as somehow a lesser breed and it is a constant among all brands of unionism. The graduated response, while it failed miserably, was unanimous among the unionist parties, an effort to thwart the democratic process and once again for unionism to try and get its way.
“We will always walk Garvaghy Road” was one placard I will never forget when once more threats allowed them to get their way, the unionist parties having no problem being seen with Billy Wright who tormented my community, using paramilitaries as leverage which usually worked as RUC members lived almost exclusively in the unionist community.That resulted in forced 50/50 recruitment policy which changed that: quite a spectacular failure some might say.
That standoff has ended and bully boy tactics have clearly failed as it would be madness to allow that dispute to be raised again.
Since then, the biggest bigot of the lot, Ian Paisley, was dumped on by his own for, believe it or not, turning into a decent human being towards the end of his life.He is the person I and many nationalists hold most responsible for the start of the conflict and keeping the flames of hatred strong in our society.Yet I would have no problem admitting he genuinely changed and died a far better man than he lived and that deserves forgiveness and respect. If anything if proves our differences can be resolved amicably.
But why is the same respect not reciprocated in the unionist community? There will of course be those who fight reconciliation to the bitter end but unionism remains some 20 years after the GFA, as obstinate as ever.
But what is it doing for them?
I remember Orange Order leaders trying desperately to give another Paisley-style rallying call in Belfast city when the speaker out with vote early and vote often, the embarrassment clear on one of the Order members next to him shaking his head and smiling in frustration on our TV screens.
The will is definitely there but there is simply no charismatic hatred-preachers anymore, and the Islam-is-Satan speech was a clear message to those that remain: you will not get away with hatred speeches any more.
So why does the unionist leadership find it so hard to show respect to my community?
If we listen to the unionist commenters here, it is all the IRA’s fault. They killed the most and did the most damage, republicans therefore have the furthest to travel on the road to acceptance from the unionist community. But with this attitude, what lessons will be learned and what message are we sending? That is it ok to start a conflict. so long as you don’t be too successful in participation? And what were the root causes? The general consensus among unionism on this forum anyway, seems to be there was no conflict, it was simply a PIRA terror campaign to which unionists were dragged into, and that Irish unity is a quest to deport Protestants.
The very fact they believe this suggests to me that a debate on what Irish nationalists throughout Ireland actually want should be more important than a border poll. In fact, I believe a border poll should be put on hold until this discussion takes place. I know not one person who holds a grudge against Protestants.
I have said numerous times on this site that I think the people in unionist communities are entitled to their culture, should it be bonfires and burning flags, and that public money should be put aside for it to keep the events safe as some bonfires look increasingly dangerous each year.
Perhaps it is only by discussing Irish unity that these unfounded fears can be put to rest Perhaps the fear and loathing within unionism is all In their heads.
Is it not worth finding out?
In Europe, from Connemara to the Urals, there are but Four Seasons – Spring, Summer,
Autumn and Winter, although on some days it’s hard to tell which is which.
Ulster seems to have a Marching Season equal in length to any two seasons, and in ferocity
to the worst of all.
I like pageantry, even marches, but unless they celebrate humanity and are unthreatening
I consider them Devilish.
I know belief in the Devil is unfashionable, but how else explain all her Jerks and Pimps?
Tranona duit Jessica, I have already addressed the issue you raise this morning on another of Jude’s posts.
I think the lack of equality in respect for traditions, in my case, the indigenious one, by the unionist one comes from fear. Fear of losing their power, fear of loosing their veto on what is permitted to happen in the occupied area, their siege mentality is now compounded by the number of ‘taigs’ in the Assembly with even ministers making decisions which impact them and directly in education, health, road’s sports grounds etc.
For this I think the blame lies within their education system which, and I have substantial experience here with my own offspring, they are taught the unionist tradition is superior, I spent eight years fighting this in my living room.
This perhaps needs changing to reduce the impact this has on children, re-unification is coming, not as soon as I should like but it will, time to start learning to live with it.
Just one disagreement Jessica, with your thirteenth paragraph assertion that public monies should be contributed to clear up after bonfires, even my wife, a committed supporter of bonfires, feels ashamed her taxes are used to clear up, if I create a mess in a public place I can be convicted and have to pay to it’s clean up, why not have a wealthy organisation, already having my taxes spent on instituting new footpaths at their new headquarters, pay for clearing up after their own asses?
“Just one disagreement Jessica, with your thirteenth paragraph assertion that public monies should be contributed to clear up after bonfires, even my wife, a committed supporter of bonfires, feels ashamed her taxes are used to clear up, if I create a mess in a public place I can be convicted and have to pay to it’s clean up, why not have a wealthy organisation, already having my taxes spent on instituting new footpaths at their new headquarters, pay for clearing up after their own asses?”
Oh I don’t mean for cleaning up, i mean for the celebration full stop. It would be up to the community to decide whether they want to spend it on a dirty bonfire or something else if they choose.
Just to explain.
I believe equal funding should be put aside for the two traditional festivals. St Patricks Day and Orangeman’s Day.
There would be conditions on both particularly around chaperoning drink abuse.
St Patricks Day would benefit from an organised music festival which would help prevent the annual drink fest in the holy lands each year.
It would be up to the communities who celebrate the 11th night to decide on a bonfire or to have a day long festival in their community more beneficial for children. If they want a bonfire so be it, perhaps restrictions on tyres and what is burned, safety guidelines to be followed to stop it melting windows on nearby homes etc…
Change is needed, this could help make it happen.
Have you any other suggestions?
Our young people are not going to stop doing it, I remember being young once. And adults moaning about it wouldn’t have stopped me, it would have encouraged me on.
Ta bron orm Jessica, my mistake, the abuse of residents in, and near, the Holyland’s is disgraceful, as disgraceful as the orange pooh between June and Sept. each year and is a matter in need of addressing, not the excuses of two Universities, on the other hand, it is a quite new thing, when a student, nearby, I never treated my neighbours with anything but respect, perhaps our new third level students are learning from them up the road, on ‘the county Down side’ who insist on belittling the murder of people in a bookies by their kinsmen.
Bigotry is the Cancer of these Six Counties.90% from Unionism 10% from Nationalist/Republican.There must be a distinction between Protestants and Unionists!!!
Yes there is a need for Education into what a United Ireland really means.
Matt Carty and Sinn Fein are trying to reach reconciliation with our fellow citizens on this Island.
But already some people are saying SF are again going back to a policy they rejected i.e Eire Nua. What is wrong with a policy of a Free United Federal Ireland.
The Cancer can only be cut out by treatment!!!
“There must be a distinction between Protestants and Unionists!!!”
There needs to be a dropping of all tags, nationalist, republican, unionist and loyalist.
We are simply Irish or British citizens regardless of our religious belief, sexual orientation or whatever tickles your fancy
The establishment of the state of NI was ultimately about unfounded fears of all things Rome (catholic) and a desire to maintain the reigning monarch as head of state? Yes, I know they are linked going back centuries. But can anyone still maintain that thinking in todays modern times? To which I would say, wise up!
There may be other reasons for not wanting a RI but I’d love to know what they are?
“The establishment of the state of NI was ultimately about unfounded fears of all things Rome (catholic) and a desire to maintain the reigning monarch as head of state? Yes, I know they are linked going back centuries. But can anyone still maintain that thinking in todays modern times? To which I would say, wise up!
There may be other reasons for not wanting a RI but I’d love to know what they are?”
The establishment of an independent Irish state was ultimately about unfounded fears of all things British and a desire to change the reigning monarch as head of state? Yes, I know they are linked going back centuries. But can anyone still maintain that thinking in todays modern times? To which I would say, wise up!
There may be other reasons for not wanting to be in the UK but I’d love to know what they are?
Unfounded fears of all things British??
Really??
You’re gonna go with that, are ya?!
If only the Irish people hadn’t suffered under centuries of British rule then everything would have been ok.
I expect answers like that from my children MT. He did it so I did it. You are better than that surely?
Jessica, for many the pain is real.
“…forced 50/50 recruitment policy which changed that: quite a spectacular failure some might say.”
The controversial 50-50 recruitment process for the PSNI ended in 2011. When it was first introduced, Catholics made up about 8% of police officers. Secretary of State Owen Paterson said that with almost 30% of officers now from a Catholic background, the practice could no longer be justified.
In 1999 using parliamentary privilege former DUP leader Ian Paisley used what he said was a police dossier to name innocent men who subsequently lost their lives. It was not the first time that the abuse of parliamentary privilege resulted in innocent men being gunned down. Many relatives continue to bear heavy burdens as a result of the abuse of parliamentary privilege.
That hopefully is all in the past, however, today thousands of people wait in pain in busy A&E departments for medical treatment. Many suffer in silence in their own homes waiting to see a doctor or a consultant. Many older people will rely on a few minutes of a carer’s time just to manage, today. Recruitment offices and agencies are also busy recruiting staff for the private sector as millions of pounds remain ring fenced for contentious parades.
Lolar, I meant that the fear and loathing that led to the actions you refer to that caused people their lives or injuries. Was it real ?
I believe Paisley put the fear of God into his people to prevent Catholics growing in numbers.
I believe he was more responsible for the conflict than any other person alive or dead.
But the paranoia he instilled into his people was all in his head, the conflict he started was for nothing. All it achieved was to reignite the fight for freedom and a prolonged conflict.
The conflict is now over. But the fear and loathing remains. Is it still in their heads?
I am well aware the pain of the conflict is real and a great many of us are damaged as a result.
Unionism has never reached out to Nationalism. It is not in their mindset. The war is not over. We are in Troubles 2.0 – a cold war. The front line is equality. Unionism may be strong buts only because now catholics now have houses, jobs etc unlike the 60s when my Dad grew up in Derry living in squalor. A united Ireland is a fairytale because only Sinn Fein are talking about it every now and then to keep their grass root supporters on side. A united Ireland doesn’t exist in the mindset map of the southern politicians. They are happy with their 26 counties and dont wish to import the sectarian backwater of the north. There is no fianna fail or fine gael in the north. Both those parties are just as uninterested in speaking about Irish unity as the unionists are in the north. And before unionists feel a little smug, the Brits don’t care or want NI either.
“There is no fianna fail or fine gael in the north. Both those parties are just as uninterested in speaking about Irish unity as the unionists are in the north.”
Yes Chris, and we need to do something about this.
We need another all island party prepared to fight for the self determination outlined in the GFA for the betterment of all of our people.
You say Ian Paisley deserves forgiveness and respect – why?
Did he ever confess any of his sins, accept his part in the troubles was totally wrong or unchristian?
Not so far as i know – so while I accept that he seemed to change tack (because the alternative spelt out to him by Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern), that change was all about his legacy.
You think there are no charismatic unionist hate-preachers any more – I would contend that Jim Allister gives a good impression, though certainly lacking in charisma.
You think that unionist ‘culture’ should be subsidised by the rest of the community – sorry, but I see no good side of paying drunken louts to burn their rubbish!
“You say Ian Paisley deserves forgiveness and respect – why?”
There is not a unionist alive today who could fill the streets the way Paisley did.
There was no person on this island could have led the unionist population into government with Sinn Fein. He sowed the seeds of reunification by claiming protestants cannot claim to be Ulstermen without being Irishmen first.
Yes, I think his legacy was on his mind, especially after his health deteriorated.
Because it is in our nature as Irish people to understand conflict, to understand confrontation to understand courage and to understand forgiveness.
When James Connolly was asked of he wanted to pray for the British soldiers about to shoot him, he said of course, he would pray for all good men who would do their duty.
I don’t know, you tell me, why not Sherdy?
Possibly my lifetime in the north of Ireland knocked most of the Christian charity and forgiveness out of me.
Count yourself lucky you have not lost those attributes!
“Possibly my lifetime in the north of Ireland knocked most of the Christian charity and forgiveness out of me. Count yourself lucky you have not lost those attributes!”
Oh I understand totally.
It comes and goes.
People like MT make it very hard, then someone like Scott comes along and I get a second wind.
It is why I am so hard on the unionist leadership, they could do so much more to heal divisions if they weren’t so pig headed and self righteous.
Sinn Fein are leading by example and it would work if they would only reciprocate.
I am sure many are like myself and conflicted over whether or not to trust.
Then I look at my children, or the generosity of young people like Ryan and Scott and it makes me mad that the states and parties don’t pull their heads in and do more to tackle all refusal to participate in reconciliation.