So here we go again. Every year, as surely as the clenched buds are followed by relaxed leaves, as surely as advertisements for sun holidays in hotter climes appear in the papers, as surely comes the time of Orange marches. The one in the news at the moment is scheduled to take place in Dungiven five days from now – Sunday 12 June. The Orange marchers were to have numbered eighty; that’s now been reduced to seventy-five. Sinn Féin councillor Sean McGinley has welcomed the reduction.
Parallel with that – in fact on the same day – there will be another parade. It’s been organized by the Ancient Order of Hibernians. Like the Orange Order, the number scheduled to march was to have been eighty but has recently been reduced to seventy-five. It will march along Sandy Row in Belfast and the UUP’s Graham Craig has welcomed the reduction in the number of marchers.
OK – hands up: that first paragraph is true but that second one paragraph is, as you’ve probably guessed, pure fabrication. There is no march of the AOH scheduled for Sandy Row on Sunday. Nor is there a nationalist/republican march of any kind scheduled for Sandy Row. Nor a GAA march. Nor any other group or organization that might be seen as representing the nationalist/republican community. Why? Because they know it would never be tolerated. Not now, not next year, not ever.
My intention is not to single out the good people of Sandy Row: the same could be said of perhaps dozens of areas where unionists form the bulk of the population. No nationalist/republican marches happen in places where they’re not wanted, and none attempt to do so. At the 2001 census, the Dungiven population was defined as 96.8% Catholic and 3.1% Protestant. It’s a reasonable conclusion from those figures that Dungiven is a massively nationalist/republican village.
So why would an Orange march take place in a village where the inhabitants in overwhelming numbers almost certainly would not welcome its arrival?
You could answer that question by saying that the Orange Order is entitled to march anywhere it wants, as long as it gets a green light (no pun intended) from the authorities. Alternatively, you could respond by saying the Orange Order chooses to march in Dungiven precisely because it is overwhelmingly nationalist/republican. And why would it do a thing like that? Because the Orange Order is an exclusively Protestant/unionist organization and Dungiven is almost exclusively a Catholic/nationalist/republican village.
Will the Dungiven people be glad to see the Orange march through their village? Will it sow the seeds of future harmony? Perhaps. It has the consent if not the support of the local Sinn Féin councillor. The thinking is, I imagine, to remove once and for all Orange marches as a source of contention and bitterness.
I would hesitate to rain on anyone’s parade/march, but my guess is that Sunday’s Dungiven march will sow one of two kinds of seed. The first is the apathetic/saddened seed, where nationalists/republicans in the village will henceforth accept that while nationalist/republicans under no circumstances will be permitted to march in a unionist area – in fact they wouldn’t even try – Orangemen/unionists are now free to march in the most nationalist/republican of villages.
The second kind of seed it will sow is that of anger. That is, Dungiven people who correctly identify the Orange Order as an anti-Catholic organization in its origins and its ordinances, may well develop a burning resentment that triumphalism is allowed to flourish in their village and the people of that village must learn to suck it up.
What’s the purpose of reducing the numbers from 80 to 75?
To offer some half hearted attempt to show they are fair minded and considerate? My guess is it’s just their declining numbers and general lack of support from within the PUL community. They just can’t get the numbers they used too
Hardly a ringing endorsement is it MT, perhaps a slight hint that it isn’t a good idea and an effort to stop it growing but decreasing year on year?
We all know the potential for violence to erupt if we are too honest with the orange order and we don’t want any more police officers getting swords to the head do we MT?
Parades Commission said: “The organiser of the Dungiven Faith & Crown Defenders LOL 2036 parade notified for Sunday 12th June 2016 has contacted the Parades Commission to advise that the number of participants has reduced to 75.” Declining numbers in the LOL? Gesture of good will?
Common sense prevailing would it be too much to hope for?
‘Common sense’ and ‘Orangemen’ in the same sentence – I don’t think so.
Orangeism is the total antithesis of good neighbourliness!
Their only aim is domination of others.
It’s like a broken record. Same ole, same ole.
You have hit the nail directly on its head.
I still adhere
to the concept that demographically the nationalists will sooner or later outnumber the unionists and I would agree with Scott that this is no assurance of their electoral preferences.
But if nationalists comport themselves in a reasonable, accommodating ,conciliatory manner , as seems to currently be the way of SF, then perhaps a majority of people can see the advantages of a reunited Ireland.
And who knows , maybe someday these walks, not ” marches” I was once reminded quite forcefully by a high ranking Orangeman, will pass off into oblivion or will be anodyne affairs of no particular concern to anyone , where anyone can walk peacefully anywhere they please without risking their necks or causing offense to people.
Do they ‘walk’ in step? If so, I’d call that marching.
They are walking in step! Fascists!
A bit like the Boys Brigade.
Valuable contribution.
Thanks.
I would have to disagree with you there Gio. They are a sectarian organisation not a fascist organisation, any similarities are purely coincidental!
Well so do I but I assume the word “march ” has certain connotations to it that imply aggression or militancy which the LOL wishes to disassociate itself from.
While “walking ” transmits the image of a stroll to worship.
Which of course is no more than an expression of culture and who in heavens name can argue with someone innocently walking to church with some of their similarly humble friends and neighbors to pray.
Bg – I assume your tongue is half-way down your throat, let alone in your cheek…
But , but … Are you suggesting that these are not peace loving men walking to prayer?
And that the tough , rough looking men in front , the stewards I think they are called , are nt just plain old neighborhood folk. And that their resemblance to members of proscribed organizations is just a coincidence? Couldn’t possibly be . Could it?
And that those bands that come over from Scotland are really just nice blokes wanting a few days of summer holidays ? A time to go to church and make peace with their maker and their neighbors.Surely the tunes they play couldn’t be meant to be offensive. I can’t really understand a lot of the words but I thought they were praising the Pope.Whats that ,they’re not? Are you sure?
And what’s wrong with a banner praising Joseph Bratty? He was just a regular nice guy who thought gambling was not a good thing.
And those people on the Ormeau Road. Do you mean to tell me that when they ” walked” past Sean Grahms holding up five fingers that they weren’t just waving hello to the locals?
And , and do you mean to tell me that the return ” walks” in the afternoon by the various Temperamce lodges are filled with men who seem to have been intemperate indeed with the ingestion of alcohol? And that they seem less than cultural and peace loving ?
I’m shocked, yes shocked ,by these intimations.
Say it ain’t so Joe!
when’s a march a walk? For the series of when’s a parade a parade? https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/whens-a-parade-not-a-parade-when-its-an-orange-order-march/
I recall last year a Concerned Residents’ Association in Dungiven saying it still has “major concerns” about the OO parade in the town, and said talks must continue to resolve outstanding issues. I think last year, for the first time, the residents agreed not to hold a counter demonstration. Did these talks continue? Its hard to believe with such a large Catholic population in the town, the OO are allowed to march through. Where is the justification for this?
No doubt over the coming days we will hear the analogy to Crumlin Road – “The Dungiven parade only takes 10-minute and is without banners or bands as members walk in silence, why cant we walk up Crumlin Road – it only takes 6 minutes” (or whatever it takes).
The Orange Order did not stop marching on the Garvaghy Rd in Portadown because of empathy towards their fellow citizens they stopped marching because of people power and of the embarrassment of British ministers of watching TV footage of baton waving policemen breaking arms and smashing skulls of the ordinary men, women and children living in the area.
If the people of the Garvaghy Rd had adopted the attitude allegedly shown in Dungiven then we would still be expecting to see a Garvaghy Rd March this year and for the foreseeable future. If something is wrong it is wrong no matter how many partake or how long it takes!
The people of Dungiven should take a stand against bigotry in their town. Would it not be better for society in general if there was never another triumphalist orange march in their town?
Just ask the people of Garvaghy!
“The people of Dungiven should take a stand against bigotry in their town. Would it not be better for society in general if there was never another triumphalist orange march in their town? Just ask the people of Garvaghy!”
Here, here and right in the middle of the orange order heartland and birth place.
Perhaps soon, the only Orangemen will be the Armagh football team supporters 🙂
“The people of Dungiven should take a stand against bigotry in their town.”
Good idea. They could start with a protest against the local GAA club, demanding that it cease honouring an INLA terrorist, and also dismantle the terror memorial in the town.
“They could start with a protest against the local GAA club, demanding that it cease honouring an INLA terrorist”
I have no doubt Kevin Lynch’s Hurling Club is named after a playing member of the club, who had an affinity with the club and was a devoted member. The Club didn’t randomly pick the name of a Hunger Striker and apply it to their name! By your logic, should we aim to remove all links to British Imperialism that appear and could be deemed offensive?
“I have no doubt Kevin Lynch’s Hurling Club is named after a playing member of the club, who had an affinity with the club and was a devoted member. The Club didn’t randomly pick the name of a Hunger Striker and apply it to their name!”
You’re quite right that the name wasn’t chosen randomly. Of all the hundreds of players who passed through the club they specifically chose to name it after Lynch, a convicted INLA terrorist.
“cease honouring an INLA terrorist”
There was no terrorists in the INLA MT.
Either learn to suck it up or elect new representatives that will stand up for them.
People don’t need elected representatives in order to stand up for themselves.
They can organise themselves and do it.
Dungiven will get attention for all the wrong reasons. Most people accept the Orange Order’s predilection for marching around in circles, cold comfort indeed for drivers and residents who face gridlock on a daily basis given the lack of adequate infrastructure from the M2 to Dungiven.
On 2 June 2016 Ms O’Hanlon wrote about “whataboutery reaching new levels of absurdity,” as television reports contained items about hundreds of PSNI officers involved in riot training in Ballykinlar. Police officers posing as rioters pelted other officers with stones and petrol bombs. Who pays for the petrol? It was noted that unlike rioters, the police officers cleaned up the area after the simulated riot. Absurdity does not begin to explain the millions of pounds that are being wasted on policing contentious marches.
The Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan was designed as a Fresh Start to anchor powersharing in the Assembly. It looks as if the Orange Order intends to weigh anchor while cherry pickers proceed with the business in hand. Whatever about Brexit, a break from marching mayhem remains as elusive as peace, harmony and stability in the six counties given the reality that elected representatives and related quangos are content to dance to the same old tunes.
Lolar “The Orange Order intends to weigh anchor while cherry pickers proceed with the business in hand”. Brilliant my friend.
Every-time they want to march or sorry “walk” ,street parties should be organised where performers dressed as the laughing Oranges make an appearance to mock and laugh at them , they dont warrant any other reaction but mockery and pity.
They are a bunch of lost, bigoted, archaic dinosaurs who cannot deal with 21st century realities. The sooner people in towns like Dungiven or Ardoyne adopt Bobby Sands mantra of “Our revenge will be the laughter of our children” the sooner they will fade away into obscurity, they thrive on getting a reaction so dont give it to them, They simpy are not worth it!
Unfortunatly though we all know that now their is now an elite who also thrive on the division in our society and the ruptures that follows event such as this march. Just look at Stormont where the same bunch apparently eyeballing each other at these marches will be wineing and dining with each other in September while collecting 50 odd grand a year or in for their latest round of funding from the EU or the British Council. The whole thing is rigged i tell you its all rigged, so the rest of you taigs can get back to ducking your heads if only for the day cause there is a whole lot of money to be had!
Sadly, unless the nationalist violently protest, riot or destroy property the march will continue to be allowed. The only thing that has ever made the ‘authorities’ consider halting sectarian parades is a public order concern. Options are simple: Riot like f#@* or wait for unionists to love their neighbour. Before anyone says it, yes I know, a very pessimistic outlook, but still true.
Emmet,
Or, – as in the ‘bent and twisted logic’ of Gerry Adams:
‘Without the IRA campaign there would have been no peace process’
If only the truth were as simple as The IRA started the trouble in 1970 when Gerry Adams was fed up working in a bar.
The pogroms of the 1920s/wow and 1969 didn’t happen. They were as mythical as discrimination against taigs; this was a great see country where the working class loved their slums and squalor.
Sure it was God’s own country
Not really bent or twisted logic it’s fact. Without the IRA campaign nationalists would be a lot worse off and there would have been no peace process. Also don’t see the peace process as an end goal it is a process!
Sinn Fein will always stand up for the rights of republicans and nationalists in the North as long as it doesn’t offend unionists.
Your well named ‘revisionist’ – what a lot of nonsense. Garvaghy Rd, Obins Street, Dunloy, Ormeau Road, Ardoyne etc – who was it that stood with the nationalist population and weren’t they just the darlings of the unionists!
Gerard
They’re certainly ‘the darlings of the unionists’ now. – Sitting in government as ‘lackeys’ and ‘shoe-shine boys’, – endorsing a Unionist State and passing the legislation of their Money-masters in London.
Adams was correct in his ‘nigger’ tweet. He just forgot to mention that he was the ‘Uncle Tom’, with his band of ‘house negroes’.
By the look of it, your bitter hatred of SF blinds you to reality. Throw away rhetoric and name calling really backed up your previous comment – classy. You need to spend more time at your computer and less time out striving to get rid of partition, which obviously you are consumed by every free second you have. So lets hear how you intend and are working to end partition.
Twinbrook Lad, the fact is, they did away with parades during WW two, not because they were all away fighting, though one of my wife’s Grandfather’s was, a wild brave wee man from the Old Lodge but, because had they been out parading, questions as to just why they weren’t away fighting would, and should have been raised; loyal mo thorn!
My same wife is a big fan of Orange coat trailing today, her Sean Mathair, at 96, still makes the sangwitches for one branch of the brave Orange Order, not the wife of her brave other Granda, I have a friend, who did a lot of year’s in the Kesh, is now doing a PhD which shall show just the loyalism of our brave neighbour’s during the second war of the cousins, our neighbour’s King.
I have often wondered why the loyal orders do not insist on walking through my local homestead, it is Jude, factually even more nationalist than even Dún Geimhin, our one time, one Protestant head of household, there being four altogether, once, drunk as hell at this time of year, poured himself out of his Marina, being too drunk to wind down his windie and called us all, wee seven, six five and a four year old childer, walking home from national school, ‘wee fucking fenian fucker’s’, however, back on point, the fact is, it is all about land, as Will Glendinning once pointed out to me as we sat in Ballymoney, you north westeners must learn to shut up and accept the superiority of the orange master race.
The once loudly proclaimed ‘siege mentality’ of the settlers has become more pronounced with devolution exhibiting the near equal number of nationalists herein (or within the occupied portion of our country) and they are worried at the possibility that, within their lifetimes we shall see greater Irish involvement, greater restrictions on their ability to upset local communities in places they are not, and have never been wanted.
Frankly, the commeration to the brave men who sacraficed their lives to free Ireland in the town upsets them a little, a bit like the war memorial in the nearby village to me, there’s fewer of them than us but what objection have we made, or been permitted to make?
Perhaps it is about time we started equalising matters?
Thanks Mark. I’ve sampled enough bigotry in my own time, similar to your own. But I want to know from any member of the OO/PUL community. What is it about a RI that so instilled all the fear? Happy to live in Ireland before partition, so why not now?
“Every year, as surely as the clenched buds are followed by relaxed leaves, as surely as advertisements for sun holidays in hotter climes appear in the papers, as surely comes the time of Orange marches”.
The orange order lies when it says it dates back to 1690 when everybody knows it dates back to the mid-1790s.
Wrong all round – even chaucer was writing about the orange order in northern ireland
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/the-orange-ulster-tales/
Was that a typo? Should it have been changer?
ben
Their website says they were founded in 1795 so maybe it is you who lies!
“Their website says they were founded in 1795 so maybe it is you who lies!”
I’ve never heard any Orange man claim they were founded in 1690. Ben definitely telling porkies.
MT, Giordano, pdorrian – ever hear of Chaucer? The canterbury tales? Written long before 1690?
So mentioning the Father of English Literature to Union supporters elicits responses like i’ve made a typo or I’m telling porkies about the Orange order’s birthday!!!.
Tells us all a lot, doesn’t it?
Do read the post and see what chaucer thought of the orange tradition in ulster.
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/the-orange-ulster-tales/
Ben
You are a tireless self promoter alright but a bit too hate filled for my tastes.
Anything to back up your claim that the OO say they date back to 1690?
Don’t link back to your own hilarious site please.
Ahh marching that old chestnut lol
The Orange order is an out of date organisation and I certainly don’t support it but alas it is there and it is legally allowed to march as long as it complys with the rules.
Peoples grievances about where and when the Orange March should not be directed at them as that’s what they do and I suppose if they get the green light then they say why not.
If people are unhappy with where marching happens there complaints should be directed at the parades commission as they are the body charged to regulate and approve marches.
On the bigger point should marching be allowed to take place in the “other sides” areas I would say why not? As long as they are conducted well minus any triumphalism, sectarianism and without the boozed up louts that follow it sometimes what harm would it do.
Derry is a city with 75% Catholic population and it’s become an example of how parading can be handled. Many businesses actually welcome the parades as they have become a huge money spinner. Bridies chip shop definitely get a good turn out of it with coach loads stopping to get something to eat.
Something to do with the fact that the 75% (minus the staff in Bridies) of the population have buggered off to Lisfannon or Moville for the day?
Scott you talk as if OO marches operate in some kind of a vacuum. If the parades commission…. If they act in a non sectarian …. With all due respect to you this to me represents an historical naiveity in the extreme and a total lack of understanding. I was born and raised in N. Belfast at the bottom of the Crumlin Rd. I was raised Catholic. We were like most people in that area working class with a big WC. Things bye and large while growing up were good, I came from a large family and as brothers and sisters do we beat the crap out of each other but no one died. Then every year along comes the 12th. The bloody 12th. For the two weeks before and for weeks after we Catholics in that area lived in abject fear. Fear of personal attack and fear as children for our parents. The biggest fear was that of being burnt out of our homes .We were eventually in 1969. I will not go down the road of parody with regards to the OO but it does scream from the Heavens to be laughed at. No I will point out to good people like yourself that ordinary Catholics of a certain age Fear the OO. My friend the border campaign did not start in Fermanagh or Derry it started in N Belfast 69 and as usual the bigots won.
I decided to look into the details of this parade in Dungiven and without doubt there are some contentious parades in NI but this certainly is not one of them.
It’s a 10 minute march by 75 members of the Orange order wearing there sashes through Dungiven town centre to a church service.
It’s completely low key with no bands, banners or music of any description and the Orangemen walk in silence.
Tell me what’s the harm in it. If the residents disagree with it then they are simply being unreasonable.
Do you believe the OO is a Catholic-friendly organisation, Scott?
No not all Jude they have lots of anti Catholic traits that I would have nothing to do with. Probably would go as far as a sectarian organisation, although I do know guys in the Orange and I wouldn’t call them sectarian one bit so I’m a little conflicted about that.
I agree completely, Scott. I believe that many – maybe most – Orangemen are decent human beings, who use the Twelfth as an excuse for a day out in a dull summer. But I think anyone belonging to an organisation owes it to themselves to consider the history and rules of that organisation, not just to close their eyes and act as though it were a bland unpolitical unbiased Christian organisation.
“who use the Twelfth as an excuse for a day out in a dull summer”
Surely there’s other ways of having a good day out during the Summer than joining a well known anti-Catholic organisation, Jude?…..I mean I have had a few dull days in summers but I don’t don a white hood and put up KKK flags like some have done in East Belfast just for something to do…..I just don’t buy that some people join the Orange Order for something to do, there’s a lot more to it than that.
“I just don’t buy that some people join the Orange Order for something to do, there’s a lot more to it than that.”
Of course there is Ryan. Even the most Christian of orange order members believes they are superior to Catholics. Even though some might even trust us to go to the shops for them.
Jude,
A few simple questions to you –
1. a guy who says he will not marry another person because they are a catholic, is he a bigot?
2. If the same guy says that he would have no impediment to marrying a Jewish person, or a muslim, Hindu, or Sikh or indeed any Christian denomination except for Catholics would that make him an anti-Catholic bigot?
3. If the guy claims that he holds these views because of the rules and ordinances of a bigoted organisation which his family and forefathers belonged to and to which he holds this membership dearly and would not like to get suspended should he decide to marry a Catholic would this absolve him of his bigotry?
4. If the guy is polite and considerate to his Catholic neighbours and gets his back shaved for charity but would still not marry a Catholic would this absolve him of his bigotry?
If the answers to Q1 & 2 are yes and to Q3 & 4 are no then someone can be decent but they are still a bigot and it is not ok or acceptable in this day and age.
If you claim openly that you hold views where you wouldn’t marry another person because of their race or religion and celebrate the fact then in my view you should be barred from public service or from holding office in any organisation in receipt of public funding full stop!
Pointis
I am not saying you are wrong but I am not entirely sure you are right.
If you do not want to someone from a different faith does
that make you a bigot?
I would have thought it required some element of hatred too.
Now there are certainly plenty of Orangemen who do display hate towards Catholics (especially the Belfast branches) and they are certainly bigots in my view.
But in theory Orangemen should be opposed to the teachings of the Roman church but love their Catholic neighbours. Yes I know it does not look that way in practice,but we tend to overlook the 90% who do no harm beyond parading up the road.
If there were any Orangemen following the principles of the order properly would you still consider them bigots?
There are plenty of Catholics who would not marry a prod due to their beliefs.
I am not sure we can call them bigots
“There are plenty of Catholics who would not marry a prod due to their beliefs.”
Have you evidence of this gio?
There are protestants married into my family and I know no one who holds such opinions. No one I know has anything against protestants whatsoever.
I do know a few people who have a passionate hatred of Muslims.
I do think religious zealousy is totally wrong, but is equally wrong if it is a catholic zealot as it is a Presbyterian zealot.
I think you want to believe there is a catholic hatred towards protestants as it fits with your views but I believe you are totally out of line with this statement.
“But in theory Orangemen should be opposed to the teachings of the Roman church but love their Catholic neighbours. Yes I know it does not look that way in practice,but we tend to overlook the 90% who do no harm beyond parading up the road.”
The price the western world has to pay for some of our freedoms is the fact that we may have to tolerate groups such as the KKK in the US or the Orange Klan here.
I am sure you would not say the KKK should oppose the equality given to blacks in the US but should love their black neighbours. Yet, you come out with this rubbish here.
As for no harm, when they would deliberately choose roads where they clearly are not wanted and their presence is not only offensive, but requires a police lockdown which not only costs money, but inconveniences the local community and creates tensions in the community as a whole, to breeds resentment in the community and does harm.
The Orange Klan, is an organised hate group and should not be tolerated to exist in the modern world never mind allowed to march in celebration of a protestant victory in a bloody battle over Catholics where the majority of people in that area are Catholics.
But if they were even prepared to show a little respect and seek permission, I am sure the people would have tolerance and come to an arrangement that would allow the march to go ahead. Without respect, I am afraid the days of unionist triumphalism are over and there will be no more jigs up the street like Trimble and paisleys hand in hand victory skip after getting their way in portadown.
Gio,
If a person doesn’t want to marry a Catholic there maybe a possibility s/he is not a bigot, but if s/he belongs to a club which proudly advocates that policy and expels those who breach it then s/he is a bigot!
‘We tend to overlook the 90% who do no harm beyond parading up the road”.
Wrong Gio, they are doing harm by virtue of their membership of a bigoted anti-Catholic organisation!
Sectarianism is an insidious poison whose actions do not need to be overt, the wink or quiet word can be enough to ensure Fred doesn’t get invited to the social party and everybody can feel comfortable with a rendition of that old party tune at the end of the night when everyone has a few jars!
Everyone has a responsibility to show good example to others especially the next generation and members of an organisation that connive to keep communities separate and endeavour to prevent young families from buying a home because one or other of the partners is a Catholic is nothing short of despicable!
There are, I expect Catholics who would not marry a Protestant but in my view they would be a bigots and I am glad I don’t know of many.
“If a person doesn’t want to marry a Catholic there maybe a possibility s/he is not a bigot, but if s/he belongs to a club which proudly advocates that policy and expels those who breach it then s/he is a bigot!”
Out of interest, were members of the RC Church bigots before Vatican II?
“Out of interest, were members of the RC Church bigots before Vatican II?”
I don’t even know what Vatican II is.
I doubt too many do either.
MT,
I am not old enough to know much about what Catholics did pre-Vatican 2, maybe you could tell me how it was and give your opinion as to whether Catholics at that time were bigots.
Maybe while you are doing that MT you could give your opinion of people belonging to churches which subscribe to the Westminister confession of faith and whether those could be described as contributing to bigotry here?
“Iam not old enough to know much about what Catholics did pre-Vatican 2, maybe you could tell me how it was and give your opinion as to whether Catholics at that time were bigots.”
You don’t need to be old enough to know. It’s possible to know about things from times past even if we didn’t experience them ourselves.
I’m not sure why you risking me what I think. I never made any comment about anyone being a bigot for joining an organisation that didn’t allow marriage to members of another denomination: that was you.
For your information, before Vatican II the RC Church did not recognise marriages between its members and Protestants, effectively closing off such an avenue to its members, leaving them with the choice of leaving the Church or being ostracised by it, deemed to be in sin, etc.
In your view were members of the RC Church bigots at this time?
Pointis
Thanks for the reply.
The oaths for an Orangeman I believe include:
‘he should ever be abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren’
whilst opposing the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church.
Is that bigoted in principle?
Would that not mean any reformed church would be bigoted?
Or to some degree any religious group which believes it is the true faith?
“‘he should ever be abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren’
whilst opposing the doctrines of the Roman Catholic church.
Is that bigoted in principle?”
The principle is not gio, but do they practice what they preach even remotely??
They may even genuinely try to make the orange klan a Christian organisation but they will fail miserably time and time again, because they are what they are. A sectarian anti Irish anti catholic organisation who are unable to even show common courtesy and talk to catholic residents before trying to impose their presence on them.
Since you try so hard to defend the Orange Klan, why not try and defend the KKK while you are at it also?
jessica
I do know Catholics who would not marry a protestant unless they converted.
If you do not that is fair enough.
I am not terribly religious to be honest.
I would say I was a Christian and am an Irish catholic because that is what I was brought up to be.
But I do struggle with authority, even if from on high. 🙂
Classic red herring ploy there Gio, straight from the Orange PRO book of mastering the art of deflection while not answering the proposition posed.
If a person is a member of an exclusive sectarian club which proudly advocates the separatist policy of expelling members who would choose to Marry a Catholic and which administers a company whose sole purpose is to prevent people who are Catholic or married to a Catholic from buying land or property could it reasonably deduced that such a person is a bigot?
I have heard all the nonsense attempting to refute the allegations of Anti-Catholicism, it has all been trotted out before by white supremacist groups agross in the USA and other parts. “We are not anti-black, we are Pro-White”, and “We are not opposed to migrants but we just want local houses for local people”.
I suppose the Orange Orders theory is if we repeat this mantra often enough we might get a few jelly-brains to believe it! Some of them might even be Catholic!
jessica
I am not trying to defend them although the KKK comparison is not accurate.
I am trying (hoping) to explore the issue in reasoned debate rather than just exchange hyperbole.
If you accept the principles stated are not bigoted in themselves, then would you accept that an Orangeman who adhered to those principles would not be a bigot? Does such an individual exist? Even one?
If so then not all Orangemen are bigots. That is a start.
In response to your other comment below I would indeed prefer to see the OO die out,but while it exists I would prefer to see its members address the problems they cause and make genuine efforts to adhere to their core principles.
In doing so they should eject the most offensive lodges entirely,specifically those Belfast ones presenting the majority of problems.
MT thanks for responding,
I know my reply will not appear under your comment because there is no reply tab after your comment.
Ok MT you directed a question to me about whether pre-Vatican Catholic’s were bigots?
I note you didn’t answer my question as to whether someone who joins a sectarian organisation (not a church) which has as one of its core tenets that Marrying a Catholic is wrong and that to do so will result in automatic expulsion from the group and which also operates a company whose sole purpose is to prevent Catholics or their partners from purchasing land or property, then would that person be reasonably assumed to be a bigot?
Ok. I have no doubt that there were bigots in the Catholic Church pre 1965 as there will still be now. Your question as to whether all Catholics at that time were bigots is more doubtful one. Would a school child in 1962 who had just made her confirmation be a bigot because of a rule that she may never know about unless she fell in love with a Protestant sometime in the future and wanted to marry him? I would doubt it and it illustrates that the bigotry lies with those who make decisions and those that have the power to affect those decisions.
My view is that those decisions made by some Pope or cardinals far back in the past were bigoted but unlike a democratic organisation members of the Catholic Church cannot vote to change doctrines of faith.
The Orange Order is a club who have democratic principles and members of a lodge can get together to change an offensive rule if they see fit by electing people who share to views or proposing changes to their constitution at their annual convention.
So in summary MT, no I don’t think ordinary Catholics pre or post 1965 are bigots as I don’t thing ordinary Protestants are bigots just because their church may have anti-Catholic ordinances which further division in the land such as the Westminister confession of faith.
The Orange Order is not a Religious demonisation so the choice of being a member is purely up to ones own conscience as to whether you choose to swear allegiance to Anti-Catholic ordinances and therefore become a bigot.
“Would a school child in 1962 who had just made her confirmation be a bigot because of a rule that she may never know about unless she fell in love with a Protestant sometime in the future and wanted to marry him? I would doubt it and it illustrates that the bigotry lies with those who make decisions and those that have the power to affect those decisions.”
But once she became an adult and became aware of such a rule and then chose to remain in the Church: would she then be a bigot?
“My view is that those decisions made by some Pope or cardinals far back in the past were bigoted but unlike a democratic organisation members of the Catholic Church cannot vote to change doctrines of faith.”
But they can leave the Church. Membership is not compulsory.
By not coming out and condemning the excesses associated with many parades the LOL reveal their bigotry and prejudices.
“I am not trying to defend them although the KKK comparison is not accurate.”
In what way was it not accurate gio?
The orange order was formed after the battle of the diamond in 1795 after a battle between two rival groups, defenders and orange boys formerly peep oday boys from the Armagh disturbances.
The peep oday boys were called because of their dawn raids on catholic homes. They were protestants who feared Catholics were getting too well off after the relaxing of the penal laws had led to them being able to vote and own property. Catholics were working hard and this was driving down linen prices through increased supply and threatening protestant control of the wealth.
As always it was inspired by a charismatic preacher the Rev. Dr. James Crawley.
The orange boys liked things the way they were and did not want equality for Catholics who they saw as inferior, just like the KKK were whites who felt they were superior to blacks.
Catholics were now outbidding protestants for land when leases expired which was to them just as abhorrent as a black owning land to the KKK.
The raids initially to find weapons had now become blatant attacks including cruelty and wrecking homes.
I suppose the main difference between the Orange Klan and the KKK would be the fact Catholics were in their own land and able to fight back whereas blacks had it much much harder being taken as slaves to a whole new world.
Fighting back led to a sectarian conflict between the catholic defenders and orange boys, with the state siding with the orange. The magistrates acquitted any Peep o’ Day Boys that appeared in court, as juries consisted of Protestants, whilst convicting and punishing any Defenders.
Both sides were as bad as one another and terrible acts were committed on both sides and the most fierce resistance in south armagh.
Eventually the british government sent the army over to restore order, the Light Horse cavalry followed by more troops sent to sort out the most troublesome areas; Armagh, Keady, Newtownhamilton, and Tandragee.
In July 1795 a Reverend Devine had held a sermon at Drumcree Church, Portadown in County Armagh to commemorate the “Battle of the Boyne”. In his History of Ireland Vol I (published in 1809), the historian Francis Plowden described the events that followed this sermon:
“Reverend Devine so worked up the minds of his audience, that upon retiring from service, on the different roads leading to their respective homes, they gave full scope to the anti-papistical zeal, with which he had inspired them… falling upon every Catholic they met, beating and bruising them without provocation or distinction, breaking the doors and windows of their houses, and actually murdering two unoffending Catholics in a bog. This unprovoked atrocity of the Protestants revived and redoubled religious rancour. The flame spread and threatened a contest of extermination…”
In September 1795 the Peep o’ Day Boys, including their Orange Boys faction, and Defenders would clash in the short Battle of the Diamond, near Loughgall in County Armagh. The result was around 30 Defenders being killed. The aftermath of the battle saw the Peep o’ Day Boys retire to James Sloan’s inn in Loughgall, where they would found the Orange Order. Its first lodge was established in Dyan, County Tyrone, founding place of the Orange Boys.
I will say again.
In what way was it not accurate gio?
“In response to your other comment below I would indeed prefer to see the OO die out,but while it exists I would prefer to see its members address the problems they cause and make genuine efforts to adhere to their core principles. In doing so they should eject the most offensive lodges entirely,specifically those Belfast ones presenting the majority of problems.”
One of the most offensive lodges is in portadown and not any one single member past or present made genuine efforts to adhere to their core principles in resolving the portadown dispute. But the people of portadown did show us how to deal with contentious marches, don’t tolerate them.
If the protestant people want to have a Christian marching organisation, then start one. But it cannot be built upon the Orange Klan.
It is up to anyone joining or supporting the orange order to learn about its history and decide if they can support its existence. Ignorance is no excuse.
Anyone in the orange order is a Klan member like it or not.
Pointis
I am not trying to put up any red herrings, just trying to clarify.
Are you then saying that even the principles as stated are bigoted ie.
opposition to Roman Catholicism as a set of beliefs
Is that already bigotry or is it the failure of members to adhere to the principles which constitutes bigotry? Which?
Gio,
You are an intelligent man and you know that the points you make are a wasteful distraction but full marks for continuing with them and for doing so without addressing the original question.
Despite the fact that you haven’t answered the point I raised I am going to be graceful and address that old chestnut which you have resurrected and which is regurgitated ad nauseum by spokespersons for the Orange Order.
The articles you cite in particular if they were considered in isolation and not along side all the other ordinances and operations of the Orange Order would not be considered as bigoted in themselves.
But in reality any semi competent person would not consider the overall character of an individual or an organisation on one small aspect of what they do or say.
To follow your logic would be to say something along the lines of for instance Lenny Murphy wasn’t a bad fella because he had a record for raising money for and helping out at the local orphanage.
To dyed-in-the-wool bigots who shed no tears over Random, innocent Catholics beefing routinely murdered that statement would be seen to be true but to rest of the sane world it would be be viewed as incredulous as would be the person who said it.
But Gio you don’t believe that the Orange Order isn’t a bigoted group but I know you will not admit that on here because it would forever shut down your option of using those same arguments against those concerned about the Order and that wouldn’t do would it?
Pointis
To be honest I have lost track of what your original question was now.
I have made my views on the OO clear in the past on Jude’s site but just to reiterate I do not think they are a force for good and I would be happy to see them fade away.
I was hoping to go beyond that basic point and explore the idea of their principles.
You have not said which core principles actually make them a bigoted organisation.
Do you believe all Orangemen are bigots by virtue of being in the organisation or could there be a proportion who are trying to practice their christian beliefs in an organisation they believe in? Not one?
What I am trying to figure out for myself as much as anything is whether it is inherently bigoted or sectarian or whether it is that its members are not adhering to its principles
Is any evangelical church which actively tries to convert others inherently bigoted or sectarian also? If not why not?
I am not trying to avoid any question by the way and if you clarify what question you mean I will try to answer it.
I hope you will answer mine.
gio, the orange order is not a Christian organisation.
It was formed after the battle of the diamond at a meeting held at the founding place of the orange boys, a sectarian militant group.
The orange order was founded for the purpose of keeping protestants superior to Catholics, just as the KKK was a white supremacist organisation, the Orange Klan is a protestant supremacist organisation.
Now, because they can no longer operate with impunity and are forced to comply with modern legalities, does not mean they do not still hold the sae principals.
I would say it is the responsibility of anyone seeking to join to learn about the history and decide then if they still wish to join.
If the answer is yes, then they are a sectarian bigot in my eyes and many others.
As I say, ignorance is no excuse.
Ok Gio,
I am sure you know as much about the Orange Order as anyone but you want to know my opinion on why the order is inherently bigoted.
Firstly the Orange Order is not a sect, religion or a faith.
Most people would understand its origins as being anti-catholic in nature.
‘Do you believe all Orangemen are bigots by virtue of being in the organisation or could there be a proportion who are trying to practice their christian beliefs in an organisation they believe in? Not one?”
There is a feasible possibility that if someone jointed the OO solely for the purpose of changing it from being an anti-Catholic organisation then that person might not be a bigot. Unfortunately the vast majority join it because it is an anti-Catholic organisation. There is little evidence of any efforts made to change the more unacceptable tenets of the Order or of a liberal wing within the organisation.
‘Is any evangelical church which actively tries to convert others inherently bigoted or sectarian also? If not why not?”
Explain why they would be bigoted and I will attempt to address your question.
“No not all Jude they have lots of anti Catholic traits that I would have nothing to do with. Probably would go as far as a sectarian organisation, although I do know guys in the Orange and I wouldn’t call them sectarian one bit so I’m a little conflicted about that.”
If they are in the orange order, they are sectarian, you just haven’t seen it yet.
Give it time, you will.
Have you discussed anything controversial with them before?
Trust me I’ve known these guys for at least a decade now Jessica and they most definitely aren’t.
I don’t really discuss politics with my friends for no other reason than they are not interested. It’s one of the reasons I come on this forum as it’s difficult to find people who are interested in politics, most people don’t care which is fair enough I guess
“Trust me I’ve known these guys for at least a decade now Jessica and they most definitely aren’t.”
I actually do trust you Scott.
You would be the only person on this site claiming to be unionist whom I could say that to.
As for trusting any member of the orange order, that I could not do.
There were Catholics in the UVF, any Catholics celebrating with the orange order would be of similar mentality.
“Give it time, you will.”
Whilst I agree with you Jessica, its also important to remember we have to take Scott at his word.
Of course I don’t know Scott, I’m sure he’s a nice fellow in his own way but is he unbiased when it comes to the Orange Order and its members? I doubt it but again I don’t know him and most likely never will but I still have to make a judgement.
If I was a Protestant and I joined the Orange Order I wouldn’t be joining it for a nice day out in the Summer or to don those fashionable Orange sashes, I would be joining it because I’d be holding very strong opinions which are very similar to those of the Orange Order itself. To claim anyone who is an Orange Order member is not sectarian is literally like saying someone in the KKK isn’t a racist or isn’t anti-Black lol
If you choose to join any organisation then you obviously identify with that organisations beliefs and code. Therefore if someone joins the Provisional IRA then its reasonable to assume they believe in Irish Republicanism and a United Ireland. Its the same with the Orange Order, if someone joins the OO then its reasonable to assume they are sectarian and anti Catholic because they have joined a well known sectarian and anti-Catholic group. People don’t have to be openly anti-Catholic in order to actually be Anti-Catholic.
He sounds genuine to me Ryan, and I am usually a good judge of character.
But in relation to the range order, you don’t get in bed with a snake. It will do what is in its nature.
The Orange Order, like the KKK will never change, it is not in their DNA.
They are not anti Catholic, they are anti the teachings of the Church of Rome. The Protestant faith is based on the message of the gospel (good news). We believe Jesus died on the cross for all our sins and He is the only mediator between God and man.
Minion, why do we need Jesus as a mediator to God? Are you sure your messages get through to Jesus easier than God. Catholics don’t believe they need a priest as a mediator any more than Protestants need a pastor to commune with God. I think you should question the Orange propaganda you have been fed. Also you give a weak justification it don’t think it matter if the OO don’t like the Catholics or thier beliefs. Why do Catholic beliefs matter to Protestants? Catholics don’t care what Protestants believe. Also Protestants have a lot in common with Catholics especially if you are CoI. I have seen Marhes where the parade has 1,000s but only a handful go to the service lol.
Minion,
The Orange Order are Anti-Catholic, apart from the fact that an Orange Man will not marry a Catholic woman, what has starting a company to prevent Catholics buying land or property got to do with the teachings of Rome,
Orangemen don’t think they are anti-Catholic bigots but that is to be expected, meanwhile back in the real world ………….!
Ryan
You and jessica are being a bit patronising to Scott there.
But then he sounds genuine to jessica so we can take him at his word which is great
Your description of someone joining the PIRA as opposed to the OO is as biased as anything Scott might be saying (moreso in fact).
Why not say ;
if someone joins the PIRA it is reasonable to assume they believe in the right to use lethal force for political ends even if it means killing civilians, whereas if someone joins the OO it is reasonable to assume they believe in “abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments, towards his Roman Catholic brethren”.
It is just a matter of which bits you choose to emphasize isn’t it?
The PIRA no longer exists gio.
Perhaps the OO should go the same way?
“I decided to look into the details of this parade in Dungiven and without doubt there are some contentious parades in NI but this certainly is not one of them.”
When you looked into it Scott, can you tell me the 75 members attend the church in question or are they being brought in for the march from other areas?
I don’t know, I am just asking as I think it could be relevant to your point?
“Tell me what’s the harm in it. If the residents disagree with it then they are simply being unreasonable.”
If it was a black community village and the KKK wanted to walk through their village in silence to a church, would you consider the residents to be unreasonable for disagreeing with it and not wanting it?
The kkk and the Orange comparison is a little strong I think Jessica.
I can’t only speak from my own personal experiences but as I said to Jude the guys I know in the Orange are not one bit sectarian. My brother in law is Catholic and he goes to the Orange hall on the 12th night for the party as do some other Catholics I know and nobody says anything. It’s a small rural lodge and everyone knows everyone as they are neighbours so maybe it’s different in the towns.
I do see that I’m contradicting myself here saying on one hand that they are a sectarian organisation and on the other that as long they behave and obey the parades commission that they should be able to walk where they like but if every parade was of the nature of the one in Dungiven the whole marching season would pass off peacefully for a change.
I guess if we had a blank canvas that we wouldn’t have an organisation like the Orange but we do and it’s now a matter of trying to find ways to manage the marching season.
Things like the actions of some marching bands outside St Patrick’s church deserve condemnation. Dungiven and Derry are good examples of how parading should work.
“I can’t only speak from my own personal experiences but as I said to Jude the guys I know in the Orange are not one bit sectarian. My brother in law is Catholic and he goes to the Orange hall on the 12th night for the party as do some other Catholics I know and nobody says anything. It’s a small rural lodge and everyone knows everyone as they are neighbours so maybe it’s different in the towns.”
I have been to a few 11th night bonfires also Scott.
We had a barbq and some drinks at one of my friends family homes before going up to the bonfire.
It was not one of the more bitter ones were I was told I would be thrown on the fire. So I can accept what you say ok Scott.
After a few drinks one of my friends got carried away and did shout something sectarian about killing Catholics. It was a slip of the tongue from the drink. When I reminded her I was a catholic she looked stunned and dropped on her arse on the kerb crying.
We stayed friends though later lost touch. We talked about it and I don’t believe she was or is sectarian at all. It is simply being brought up with that as the normal.
The whole purpose of the orange order is to keep such feelings of superiority over Catholics alive.
It is very much the equivalent of the KKK who were based on the orange order who grew out of the peep o day boys. Don’t be fooled Scott.
The KKK today could attend a party with blacks, they have no choice. But they still refuse to hide their feelings and would do more if they could get away with it.
The Orange order need to be treated exactly like the KKK. It would be too dangerous not to.
By your logic, Scott, the OO should be able to march where they want? Scott, do you find the OO offensive?
“It’s a 10 minute march by 75 members of the Orange order wearing there sashes through Dungiven town centre to a church service.” Why should the timing and amount of members make a difference? It’s an Orange, anti Catholic march through a Catholic area! So, in the event of it being longer and more members – is this unacceptable?
“It’s completely low key with no bands, banners or music of any description and the Orangemen walk in silence.” They are still marching through a Catholic area – does it matter if there are no bands, banners or music? How does this make it acceptable?
“Tell me what’s the harm in it.” Tell me where there is no harm? The fact of an anti Catholic secret society who openly display an anti Catholic ethos and principles marching in an area that is Catholic – where is the logic in that? In the same instance where is the harm in a Catholic / Nationalist organisation marching up the Shankill?
“In the same instance where is the harm in a Catholic / Nationalist organisation marching up the Shankill?”
They’d be lynched. Some eejit Orangeman in a car would probably drive up the road and knock some young girl over.
A quote from Susan McKays “Northern Protestants”: “I asked the senior Orange man why these clearly provocative parades were going by areas where they know tensions are high, he replied calmly “to remind the Catholics who is master”.
What bothers me isn’t these parades as such, its the attitude of the Catholic community, of the Irish population overall. Its this attitude of being cowed, of being defeatist and of being accepting of humiliation. I find that truly pathetic and is something I completely distance myself from. You see it all the time, from Irish football fans (of both the ROI/NI teams) cheering their teams on even after they lose. To Irish politicians having an servitude air of being “grateful” when amongst the EU hot shots, even economist David McWilliams wrote about this in his book “The Good Room” where he said Irish politicians did as they were told by their “betters” in Germany and France when implementing butchering austerity on their own people, it wasn’t to do with getting Ireland into better economic shape, it was mostly about low self esteem and “accepting of their lot”.
I always remember the quote from Old IRA man Dan Breen on Michael Collins: “I loved him. We were serfs! serf minded. Then he came along and picked us up from that depression, we looked upon them (senior Old IRA men) as God’s”.
The Irish people need to get out of that depression, they need a change of identity and they need a change of mind set and need to stand up and fight for what is right. I say “they”, I am an Irish person but I’m not like these defeatist people and never will be.
The time is long overdue where the Orange Order need put in their place.
“A quote from Susan McKays “Northern Protestants”: ”
*Susan McKay klaxon*
“Susan McKay Klaxon”
Your a fine example of Unionist intellectual genius MT……Please, please never change MT, promise?……
Ryan – no unadorned insulting, please
Sorry Jude, my mistake.
No problem, Ryan (I hope)
Ryan
Totally agree with all of your sentiments, but we have got to accept that as republicans,we were massively betrayed by SF – in a subtle way, using subterfuge and deception,- to politically engineer our aspirations away from a UI – towards some nebulous ‘nationalist civil rights’ distraction.
We’ve still got the Orange, – Stormont, RUC, Prisons, Civil Service, BBC, etc etc..
If you feel humiliation , as I often do, I’m sorry to say -we just have to get used to it. Just sit back all summer and watch as the Orange KKK ‘remind us who is master’ – and the Orange media establishment, manipulate the presentation of ‘toxic hate and bigotry’ into cultural expression.
No civilised nation would accept it. – But SF do.
“If you feel humiliation , as I often do, I’m sorry to say -we just have to get used to it. Just sit back all summer and watch as the Orange KKK ‘remind us who is master’ – and the Orange media establishment, manipulate the presentation of ‘toxic hate and bigotry’ into cultural expression.
No civilised nation would accept it. – But SF do.”
Do you think Sinn Fein should fight all our battles for us TR?
I would like them to be honest in their aspirations but I believe they are doing very much the right thing. Whether or not I can vote for them in Stormont is an issue for me, but I still support them and am proud of what they are achieving.
I watched John ODowd addressing Stormont after the so called opposition did their damdest to criticise everything, before Naomi Campbell made moneys out of them.
Sinn Fein have matured into a party of government and can no longer behave in irrational or uncohesive ways or within a partitionist mindset.
Their aim is to govern this country and I wish them well in that aim. They will replace the current administration in Dublin when it falls over.
At the same time, I am also frustrated and fed up with the actions of unionism.
Perhaps we should be saying, we either get used to it, or we start up another movement and face down unionist intransigence head on ourselves.
Block every march, remove every flag, obstruct the very British way of life until they have no choice but to talk.
Sinn Fein are on the right path, we should wish them well and take up our grievances with unionism on our own.
Jessica,
It is with great respect, that I question this ‘allegiance and pride’ that you allude to with relation to SF, – yet you doubt your ability to vote for them in Stormont?
Jessica – SF- ARE STORMONT – NOW !
They are part of the DNA of the place. And by default they are now a Unionist Government.
These people, will engage in any form of ‘political acrobatics’ in their pursuit of power and privilege.
Wait and watch and see.
But I still think your commentary is excellent, otherwise.
I understand what you are saying completely TR.
Why do you think I have been calling for Gerry Adams and the northern leadership to stand aside and for Dublin to take control over the leadership of Sinn Fein?
What Sinn Fein have done in Stormont is destroy any remaining doubt that they are fit for government in the republic, taken away any potential criticism the Dublin establishment over their ability to form a government and their reach out to unionism is going to make it very hard for the media to push their poison to the electorate against voting for Sinn Fein.
Ireland will never be ruled from Stormont, it will only ever be ruled from Dublin.
Sinn Fein have not sold out.
I could easily say Dissidents have sold out as killing prison wardens outside of conflict only attacks the memories of republicans who gave so much. It prevents the transition from occupation to full independence as it keeps the British army who are the only participant capable of over ruling Westminster on when to a referendum. Dissidents are in fact preventing a British withdrawal.
Any I have spoken to can do no more than regurgitate 70s rhetoric and when they lose an argument resort to their fists.
Plus they seem more interested in crime, money and status. They are nobodies in my eyes.
For Sinn Fein to call people to the streets would be used against them in southern elections.
If we want to take on unionist intransigence, it CANNOT be Sinn Fein leading that fight for the reasons I outline above.
That is not sell out, it is having a strategy and sticking to it.
I do not need to vote for Stormont to support Sinn Fein into power in Dublin.
I would if they were more vocal on unification but I expect they will be when the time is right. I would prefer the transition of control was passed to Dublin before they did though.
In my mind, calls for unity need to be coming from Dublin.
They aren’t, and this goes back to the real sell out you refer to.
Sinn Fein leading the Dail is essential to breaking this. Whether they are first minister in Stormont is irrelevant.
“we were massively betrayed by SF”
I don’t believe we were betrayed by SF TV, but I can see where you got that idea. But its important to remember that SF do not have a monopoly on Irish Republicanism and never have. The SDLP were once King of the Nationalist Hill, now its SF. The SDLP fell from the Nationalist Hill and the same could well happen to SF if they don’t play their cards right and deliver for the growing republican electorate. If SF fail then they will just be replaced by another republican grouping.
“If you feel humiliation , as I often do, I’m sorry to say -we just have to get used to it”
I don’t feel humiliation TV, I reject it and seek to actively do something about it. We don’t have to get use to it, that’s the whole point. The Gravaghy Road residents didn’t get use to it, they did something about it and they won. The Ardoyne residents didn’t get use to it and their winning, just the morning parade to go next. The Catholic community needed time but eventually stood up against Unionist discrimination and the Unionist sectarian state and its dead in the water now, Catholics won.
The defeatist attitude I was talking about is what you are displaying now by saying “we just have to get used to it”. That’s false, utterly false. Stand up, get angry and do something about it. At the very least stop with the defeatism. Nothing is impossible.
As the great Michael Collins said: “Our greatest weapon is our refusal”.
“As the great Michael Collins said: “Our greatest weapon is our refusal”.”
You are an inspiration Ryan.
Ryan,
SF were once the cutting edge of socialist republicanism. They became infected with compromise, as touts and political ego’s, not to mention money and ambition,- displaced self- sacrifice – and the honour of upholding the aspirations of generations of true republicans.
In this context, the middle class SDLP from the leafy suburbs were never in contention. No ‘blanketmen’ ‘hungerstrikers’ or ‘dead volunteers’ there. So in a sense the SDLP have nothing to apologise for – except for being a compliant unionist ‘controlled opposition’.
Now however, SF have taken on that mantle and have out- SDLP’d- the SDLP -and become part of everything they despised. A kind of political ‘stockholm syndrome’ if you get my meaning.
So I don’t have a ‘defeatist’ attitude as such. Its more of a less parochial -‘realist’ – attitude. From a background in finance, I see incrementally, the machinations of all Western government ‘agencies’ in ‘buying’ the allegiances and moral ethics of all political parties.
Its just that, in 1981, when the lie began, I would never have believed that SF could have been purchased so easily.
The ‘Unionist sectarian state’ is far from ‘dead’ in the water.
The ‘controllers’ in Industry, the Banks, Insurance, Civil Service, Media etc. are still the same cabal that meet up regularly to agree on which compliant ‘taig’ gets the next decent promotion,- to prove your ‘illusion’ is still feasible.
Ryan
“Our greatest weapon is refusal”
And surprise
And ruthless efficiency…
I should put a smiley face in as you may be too young to get it!
“The time is long overdue where the Orange Order need put in their place.”
Well said Ryan, not just the orange order though, unionism in general needs put in their place.
“Well said Ryan, not just the orange order though, unionism in general needs put in their place.”
They are the same thing Jessica, the Orange Order runs the two main Unionist parties or indeed all of the Unionist parties.
“They are the same thing Jessica, the Orange Order runs the two main Unionist parties or indeed all of the Unionist parties.”
No, they are definitely not.
The majority of unionism would be embarrassed by the orange order. The ones who have the sense and foresight to know it is harming their cause.
“Your Liberty To Swing Your Fist Ends Just Where My Nose Begins”
People have the right to live free from sectarian intimidation. Ireland will never be at peace until the OO is banned. Sectarian triumphialism has no place in any modern society.
Futhermore, sectarianism is not ‘Culture’ nor is deliberately disrespecting any section of society.
One fine, fearless fellow who is never, erm, Dungiven out about a little town in Londonderry, Esteeemed Blogmeister, is the HorCor of The Unionist Times.
So, Sunday next must really pesent an Orange Letter day for the racing tipster extraordinaire, Brian O’Connor (for it is he !). Let’s longface it, Dun Geimhin ar an Domhnach/ Dungiven on Sunday has everything: the persecuted majority’s answer to the GAA, fine to firm conditions forecast and – a one-horse race.
But, what a horse !
Not a dark horse, mind, such as Dutch Bill rode at the Boyne Handicap , and which colour ensured the quadruped of his surprise victory. Rather will it be a white horse called, oddly enough, White Sorrel (for sorrel translates as ‘deargrua’ which is more like orange in Leprechaun) which the jockey with a neck with a touch of the bucolic melancholics took a real shine to.
In fact, it became Dutch Bill’s favourite mount (of the four legged variety, of course). This horse was bred at Wallington Hall in Northumerland. Nothing less than fascinatingly, this country estate later became the family home of Sir Charles Trevelyan, who gained fame as an importer/ exporter: he exported corn and imported famine. And possibly worse, inspired a dreadful ballad.
BOC, the dashing chap in the Trilby hat is one of the select Monday Club of The Unionist Times in which he gets to pen a column to do with sport other than that of kings. Though of course he does still get to write about his beloved gee gees too.
This is effect means he directs his beady eye at the GAA about which he harbours a charmingly obsessive and visceral loathing . The stewards of the tolerant editorial board never fail to turn a blind eye to his, erm, liberal use of the whip where ‘the games of Gaeldom’ are concerned.
On Monday October 28, 2013, he really got the bit between this teeth, in a manner of streaking:
‘Naming of Clubs after fanatics shouldn’t be tolerated by the GAA.
(If clubs like Dungiven are all about the parish then name them after the parish and not some paramilitary like Kevin Lynch).
Kevin Lynch of Dungiven was a member of the INLA. That meant he pondered the political landscape of the North of Ireland in 1970, and concluded his beliefs were worth killing people for. Given the sectarian history of Irish republicanism, such a conclusion usually boils down to killing Protestants. Lynch figured killing someone was an acceptable price to pay to get something he wanted. By any reasonable definition of the word, this made him a fanatic’.
Hmmmm.
Predictably , The Unionist Times, being nothing if not a byeword for balance, promptly commissioned a mirror article by the same detached scribe on the bloodstock industry, not.
It was to be published the following Mondayj, in fairness, going forward:
‘Naming of Races after fanatics shouldn’t be tolerated by the Horsey Set.
(If the Sandown Park race track is really all about Spiv and Take then it should call its races after genuine spivs and not some bloodyminded stockbroker, i.e., the Henry 11 Stakes, open to 4 year olds and older).
-Henry 11 was a member of the Paramilitary group called the Plantagenets. That meant he pondered the political landscape of Hibernia in the 1160s and concluded his beliefs were worth killing people for. Especially if one could get local, erm, patsies, i.e., Dermod Mac Murmur on the Brave Heart to do the killing for him. Henry 11 was, essentially, the original founder member of the Grand Ole Proxopry. Given the Ubermensch mentality of Ye Olde Merrie Englanders this usually boiled down to putting Paddy to the broadsword. Hank of the Plantagenets figured that getting local patsies to kill Paddy was an acceptable way to get something he wanted. Thus Henry authorized Dermod ‘to levy forces’ march northwards and ‘to torch and lay waste to the hinterland of Dyflynn’. By any reasonable definition of the word this made Henry 11 the Monarch of all he Ashtrayed’.
Book early for next Monday’s edish of The Unionist Times, especially if you dwell in Dungiven. Paddy Power is already laying unbackable odds it will be , as usual, a, erm, Sell Out.
Poor Jude’s insecurities all laid bare again. First it was the Boys Brigade, now it’s a minority of the minority 3.1% of Protestants in 96.8% Catholic Dungiven what are giving him cold sweats.
Welcome to Jude’s view of a United Ireland. If 0.001% were told to sit at the back of the bus there would be republican outrage, but it’s acceptable to demonize less than 3.1% in Dungiven at this case.
céad Míle Fáilte
Glenn – maybe have a look at what I’ve said to Lutheran – it applies exactly to you too. Agus céad mile fáilte ar thú fosta…
here is the 96.8% of Dungiven think of Protestants just traveling through the town. Attempted murder on people going home after a day out.
“An attack on a bus travelling through Dungiven with supporters returning from the Apprentice Boys parade in Londonderry, and which left four people injured, has been condemned as “evil” and “disgusting”.
The attack happened on Saturday evening as the bus travelled past the Sports Pavilion, through Dungiven. The bus driver pulled in, further along Chapel Road opposite St. Patrick’s Church at a car park, where shattered glass and bloodied rags were visible. Police say they arrested a 16-year-old “after missiles thrown at a bus in Dungiven” and said four people – a man and three women – were injured. One of the women has been taken to hospital for treatment to serious facial injuries”.
http://www.derryjournal.com/what-s-on/arts-culture/attack-on-bus-in-dungiven-from-apprentice-boys-parade-evil-1-6893687
For Glenn,
‘here is the 96.8% of Dungiven think of Protestants just traveling through the town. Attempted murder on people going home after a day out.”
Why not just say it as you see it Glenn? All the Catholics in Dungiven are baduns!
Most people reading that article could be forgiven for being left with the impression that some person or persons threw a stone/ stones/ bricks at bus carrying supporters of the Apprentice Boys as it passed through Dungiven on its return from a march in Derry and that police arrested a 16 year old youth who they believe was involved in the attack which left 4 people injured, some of whom were seriously injured and required hospital treatment.
But no! Glenn with his extensive network of contacts knows the real inside track!
You see, Glenn’s pal whom he meets at the pub and who works for NIE, knows a fella who said there had been an electrical spike detected on Saturday evening at the local electrical substation supplying the town. The spike in electricity was caused by all the Catholics in the town turning off their TV sets, lights and appliances before leaving their homes before making their way down to the pavilion sports centre to cheer on a youth who proposed “settling the score for 1690”.
Claims that a large number of local Catholics were at Mass at the time and had no involvement in the incident were dismissed by Glenn’s pal who is known locally as “the Orange Oracle” and also as “Bitter Bill”. According to the “Oracle” he has it on good authority that the parishioners were asked to say 1 Our Father and 3 Hail Mary’s and this accounted for the “shooters” success in “taking out” 4 Protestants on the bus.
The “Oracle” said that under normal circumstances a young fella with a bottle and a half of Buckfast in him shouldn’t have been able to hit a barn door never mind a moving bus but it would have been the “praying that did it”. The “Oracle” said that he doesn’t normally believe in “all that mumbo-jumbo but there is too much in it to be a coincidence, 4 prayers and 4 Protestants down”. The Oracle also said that the phschological effect on the young fella of knowing that “half the town were praying for him” could have given him the extra edge although not enough edge obviously to escape the sharp-eyed peelers who quickly nabbed him.
According to the Oracle “there is no gratitude in them, you give them a vote and a job and the next thing they think they own the town”!
Many disturbances are started in both communities by young people. Eight year olds throwing rocks or teens texting and looking for some excitement.
In some areas networks have been set up between the adults to stop escalation before things get out of hand and the lowlifes get involved.
3.1 % is not what people ae worried about, it’s 75 bigots feeling the need to march through a Catholic town to try and celebrate their ‘superiority’. Hardly sweats, just people questioning why we need to tolerate sectarianism in this day and age.
Dear Jude,
If irony were an iron bar you would have been knocked unconscious years ago. Your mask has well and truly slipped and your hate is there for all to see.
I was prepared for a battle of wits with you over this, but sadly you have arrived unarmed.
Oh, and No Surrender from the 221st BB in Glasgow.
I try not to post straight abuse, Lutheran, but since you’re a newcomer…If you’d like to put forward an argument against what I’ve said (beyond No Surrender), I’ll be happy to respond – as I’m sure others here would also. Your decision. But no more straight insults, please.
“I was prepared for a battle of wits with you over this, but sadly you have arrived unarmed.”
Looking forward to your contributions Lutheran.
I do hope you haven’t thrown in the towel already.
There are a few unionist commenters here who could do with some wits.
Glasgow is a wonderful city by the way. An Irish republicans home from home.