Matt Carthy is an engaging young man. He’s from Co Monaghan, and has that beginnings of a southern accent you get when you travel south, whether to South Armagh, south Fermanagh or Monaghan. He’s an MEP along with three other Sinn Féin MEPs – all women. He was Sinn Féin’s director of elections in the south’s last general election, which may make you decide he’s a bit of a dunderhead (they were far outstripped by their main rivals Fianna Fail) or a clever guy (his party added nine TDs to what had been fourteen before the election).
He’s now in the news because he’s made a speech at Corrymeela where he’s suggested that devolved government in Belfast could be part of a transitional arrangement for a united Ireland. Before you puff your cheeks and mutter “Some chance”, he goes on to consider the consequences for Ireland if Britain were to vote to leave the EU. If that happened it, it would create ““a democratic imperative to allow people in Ireland to vote on Irish unity”.
He’s right on that one. The pressures for a referendum in the north would be considerable, if Britain opted for EU exit. (They’d be even more powerful in Scotland.)
But an Assembly in Belfast as part of a transitional all-Ireland arrangement – poppycock? He reminds us of what has already happened. “”To those who say that this will not happen, it is worth noting that it is only a few years since the idea of the DUP and Sinn Féin being in government together would have been regarded as absurd. Yet this has happened.”
There are two things that republicans are becoming increasingly irritated over. One is the lack of emphasis by Sinn Féin on a united Ireland. Matt Carthy’s speech corrects that deficit. The second area of deep unease among republicans is the apparently passive response by Sinn Féin politicians to insults and triumphalism, and a growing belief that outreach by Martin McGuinness and others has met with little or no response from unionists and that it’s time to stand up and help unionism see that gestures of reconciliation are not gestures of weakness.
McCarthy addresses the second of these – attitude to unionism – as well: “”The only type of United Ireland that interests me in is one that is agreed, inclusive, pluralist and which is constructed by all our citizens, from whatever background.”
When you see it spelt out like that, you know it’s completely true. Maybe that inclusion of unionism within an Ireland of the future will be best achieved by republicans continuing to make moves that offer friendship to past foes, or maybe it’ll work better if republicans let unionists see that friends respect each other and that reconciliation is a two-way street, a street that’s been open for some time, so no point in harking back to what happened in the past. This is now, and we – all of us – have to do those things that create and build respect in place of contempt.
There is no other way. We all – unionists, republicans and nationalists – know that. We also know that relapsing back into a blow-for-blow posture, where we thump you and you thump us, is a true prescription for impasse.
An end to physical hostilities was feared by the leader of unionism, James Molyneaux. There’s a danger that republicans will find the challenges of reconciliation too much as well. Matt Carthy has provided a timely reminder that, however great the temptation, we can’t kick over the table and storm off swearing
Why only Belfast?
Would Munster and Leinster not like devolved government also in a new Ireland?
I don’t see Dublin doing them any favours either.
Radical turned reactionary, Eoghan Harris, will no doubt dismiss Matt Carthy’s progressive views. The former speaking in RTÉ’s, ‘The Week in Politics’ supports a return to the hegemony of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, which in his opinion is in the best interests of “the country.” Mr Harris, speaking for Micheál Martin, wishes to put Sinn Féin out of business. Perhaps Mr Harris will pause and reflect on the fact that thousands of people in the country endorsed Sinn Féin policies in recent elections.
Today, we have yet one more Tory politician visiting the north of Ireland, George Osborne, broaching the subject of Brexit and the border. The sudden interest in this part of the world by Tory politicians is a reflection of the deep divisions within the Tory Party in contrast to Matt Carthy’s vision of an:
“…agreed, inclusive, pluralist United Ireland constructed by all our citizens.”
I don’t understand this concept of a transitional arrangement.
Once there’s a vote for a UI, that would be it. Why would there need to be a transitional arrangement?
“Once there’s a vote for a UI, that would be it. Why would there need to be a transitional arrangement?”
Unification will take 10 to 15 years MT. I would like at least 24 months to debate it and get the ground work right, make sure as much of the Irish people are involved and on board.
It will need the buy in of both states and financial support from both and hopefully the EU if brexit doesn’t crash the whole thing.
I would want the catholic church to give up the land for all schools for a new state controlled education system.
There would be many decisions to be made, it would have to improve the quality of life for all of our people. It needs to be done properly in other words.
How else can we expect people to buy into it?
“Unification will take 10 to 15 years MT.”
How do you know?
“I would want the catholic church to give up the land for all schools for a new state controlled education system.”
You may do but the RC Church wouldn’t nor most RCs.
“Unification will take 10 to 15 years MT.”
How do you know?
The only serious reunification document ever penned was by Harold Wilson and it was a 15 year plan he put to the southern government. The british army ousted his government but if a British prime minister thought 15 years was the right length of time to do it right, who am I to argue.
It would be up to them to tell that the people then. I would still make a direct request off them as a gesture of good will towards the Irish people. Other churches have done similar.
If they don’t want to then they can say no and we can deal with it then
You are a very negative person MT.
“….Once there’s a vote for a UI, that would be it. Why would there need to be a transitional arrangement?….”
======================================
Ask the DUP bestest buddies such as Billie Wright.. aka King Rat. (Okay so he’s dead-not the point) Take a look at fleg gate..
Take a look at Camp Twaddle….. Take a look at a lamp post in Rathcoole or some such place.
This should explain this piece of waffle over “transistional arrangements”.
However I don’t really think you are asking the question in that way.
I think you are pointing out that Sinn Fein have no real strategy for UI. And your question has the tone of high lighting SF failure rather than seeking any real light on the matter.
A fair enough point in itself.. But I’m afraid I couldn’t resist myself.
And as for the transistional arrangement stuff.
I wouldn’t worry about it.
There is not going to be a UI so the “transistional arrangement” will just have to wait it’s date with destiny.
which will be sometime after the next ice age has come and gone. And please don’t ask when that will be.
I am an Irish nationalist, unbelieveably so.And i will support the idea of a UI. And I will say how much I regard unionism as quislings and pour scorn over them at any given chance.
But the fact remains the bloody boarder ain’t going anywhere fast.
Perhaps if UK leaves the EU.. things might change. And I am hoping for this.
But I also don’t believe in so called democracy and I believe the powers that be will have MI5 fix the Brexit vote.
Or maybe the science of PR is on such a high level of competence that MI5 is a complete
irrelevance.
From the days of getting women to smoke with “Torches of freedom”. Various PR gurus know how to mould the public like a piece of putty.And just like the smoking It’s usually all done for somebodies commercial gains.
Nothing to do with the wee provence.that requires the result to be fixed as so. That’s not what I’m getting at.
The british Royals, the British Elite have decided that Brexit is a non runner
Ergo the need to “make it so..”
It’s all a sham.. I’m afraid.
The issue is too big to let the great unwashed to have any real say over the matter.
I am sure there are plenty examples in history where the ruling body gave the illusion of “people power” but the reality was quite different.
“Ask the DUP bestest buddies such as Billie Wright.. aka King Rat. (Okay so he’s dead-not the point) Take a look at fleg gate..
Take a look at Camp Twaddle….. Take a look at a lamp post in Rathcoole or some such place.This should explain this piece of waffle over “transistional arrangements”.”
I’m afraid it doesn’t.
Unionist violence. that would be the reason for ” transistional” arrangements.
“Unionist violence. that would be the reason for ” transistional” arrangements.”
How so?
MT.
The Free state wouldn’t want the problems of unionist paramilitaries.
Ergo.. this half way house idea would be a ” don’t scare the horses” type arrangement for both unionists and Free staters.If you catch my drift.
An “easing in process” if you like.
That is my take.
Must admit BYC’s answer about finance also makes sense.
And I hold my hands up to not even thinking about it.
“The Free state wouldn’t want the problems of unionist paramilitaries”
Both the British and Irish state know who all the Unionist paramilitaries are Oz, the British were even running them. If they were all locked up then they would be paralyzed and defeated in a very short time, in my opinion.
Unionist paramilitaries are not comparable to that of the IRA or INLA, both were run and functioned very differently. UDA commander Jackie McDonald even said he cant control all UDA members, hence why many UDA groups in places like Antrim are doing their own thing and ignoring orders from their superiors. The IRA was/is very different. Discipline was very strong in republican paramilitaries. They were much more advanced in bomb making, carrying out operations, counter intelligence, etc than Unionist paramilitaries.
The British Army described the IRA as: “a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force”, while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as “little more than a collection of gangsters”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6276416.stm
“Both the British and Irish state know who all the Unionist paramilitaries are Oz, the British were even running them. If they were all locked up then they would be paralyzed and defeated in a very short time, in my opinion.”
You’re supporting internment without trial? But only against loyalists?
“The Free state wouldn’t want the problems of unionist paramilitaries”
I don’t think anyone wants the problems of unionist paramilitaries, even unionists.
“MT.The Free state wouldn’t want the problems of unionist paramilitaries.
Ergo.. this half way house idea would be a ” don’t scare the horses” type arrangement for both unionists and Free staters.If you catch my drift.
An “easing in process” if you like.
That is my take.”
Not sure loyalist terror gangs would be assuaged by a ‘transitional arrangement’ to a ‘united Ireland’.
“Not sure loyalist terror gangs would be assuaged by a ‘transitional arrangement’ to a ‘united Ireland’.”
MT, since you consider loyalist terror gangs as evil and simply terrorists, surely it doesn’t really matter what they think?
“MT, since you consider loyalist terror gangs as evil and simply terrorists, surely it doesn’t really matter what they think?”
Why are you putting that question to me? I never said it mattered.
“Why are you putting that question to me? I never said it mattered.”
Because some of your comments could be construed as a veiled threat, that is why MT.
“Because some of your comments could be construed as a veiled threat, that is why MT.”
What comments?
MT and Jessica, there is probably another reason why re-unification, if a referendum took place and decided on such, would take up to fifteen years, the huge number of arms in posession of unionist people, the persuation, which they attempt to be resisting at all cost, is clearly not working, I’ve little doubt their ‘british’ government should like to be shot of them but they do nothing to actually persuade their unwanted it is in their best interests to depart. Probably something to do with their soon found need for a nuclear sub base on the north Atlantic coast.
The aforementioned high number of high powered weapons in unionist posesion has frightened the crap out of various free state governments, it is incumbent on both governments, rather than untrusted political parties to attempt the persuation, both are lacking.
To persuade people to vote for a United Ireland? The idea seems to be that NI would leave the UK as NI and join a united Ireland as NI. So we’d still have the same reserved legislation but we’d chip into Dublin’s coffers and get our block grant from her mighty treasure chest. Not sure what else would change. Defence and the currency?
I would not want that BYC.
I want a new Ireland fit for purpose of all our people and I want dramatic change in NI to begin now regardless.
NI needs to lead the way in the new Ireland.
We need to shake off the shackles of unionism and to stand on our own two feet.
Failure by unionists to engage will inevitably lead to the erosion of Britishness out of NI over time by the natural change in demographics and a hardening of attitude towards it.
Reach out can only be snubbed for so long before unionism will be given up on as a lost cause.
As John Major said on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday the possible consequences of the EU referendum huge and I would agree it’s far more important than any general election.
The GFA as I understand it was based on setting up a new arrangement for the relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic, along with agreeing that the issue of partition would be addressed only when both a majority in NI and the ROI agree upon it by referendum. This is a system I’m happy enough with.
The potential for the UK leaving the EU however changes that relationship to such a huge degree that I believe there should be a border poll should the leave campaign succeed. The hardening of the border, potential trade tariffs and possible limitations on freedom of movement all mean that the border question will need addressed.
This shouldn’t happen immediately though if there is a leave vote, as time should be given to the UK government to negotiate there new relationship with Europe so the people of NI can make a informed choice.
“There are two things that republicans are becoming increasingly irritated over. One is the lack of emphasis by Sinn Féin on a united Ireland. Matt Carthy’s speech corrects that deficit. ”
You think one speech corrects that, or is a step towards correcting that?
In Fianna Fails eyes, the people can be brushed off with a single nice speech, are Sinn Fein the new SDLP in the north and the new Fianna Fail in the south I wonder?
“The second area of deep unease among republicans is the apparently passive response by Sinn Féin politicians to insults and triumphalism, and a growing belief that outreach by Martin McGuinness and others has met with little or no response from unionists and that it’s time to stand up and help unionism see that gestures of reconciliation are not gestures of weakness.”
There was a program on TV when I was young, crackerjack I think it was, the guy would say something like, I could crush a grape as a joke he was so excited.
This warrants a similar response. It is limp and weak and will be eaten for breakfast by the DUP.
“Maybe that inclusion of unionism within an Ireland of the future will be best achieved by republicans continuing to make moves that offer friendship to past foes, or maybe it’ll work better if republicans let unionists see that friends respect each other and that reconciliation is a two-way street”
Because they don’t seem to have spotted it, I will spell it out for them.
The response by Unionism is a deliberate and calculated response to the GFA.
By refusing to play ball, they believe they can deny the self determination elements of the GFA from being implemented until the agreement can be done away with.
If we don’t talk about unification because unionism don’t ever want to, how can we ever have a vote on it?
By maintaining the stance that republicans are totally to blame, they can ensure the hostility towards unity is maintained within unionism and deny reconciliation with the south.
By preventing social housing integration but integrating schools, they can optimally manage the changing demographic and is the only option they have to try and keep things unionist as long as possible.
By preventing a shared narrative and conflict resolution to be completed and a process of reconciliation to begin on this island, they will instead attempt to impose a unionist narrative of the conflict in the north and reconcile only with Catholics who support the union which will seriously impact the opportunity to grow our economy by developing a lucrative tourism industry in the north. If we can make Ireland a success story in terms of conflict resolution it will be the biggest tourist draw on this island. But it has to be a positive outcome and educational not glorification.
By keeping the north reliant on the Barnet formula within the UK, they can persuade the south not to push for unity.
I could go on, but if Sinn Fein cannot see what is happening here they are a bunch of dumb asses or dunderheads as you called it.
“There are two things that republicans are becoming increasingly irritated over.”
I should point out, the emphasis should be on the word “increasingly” and that it is not so much an irritation, but an absolute non starter, go shove your peace process up your arse and your reconciliation project can join it.
For further clarity, the republican community will not be accepting one sided blame and the demonisation of our people as part of a deliberate strategy within unionism. The conflict was not one sided and scrutiny must be applied to unionism now.
If Sinn Fein want our electoral support then do something about it.
Start the process without unionist buy in and let them see there is nothing to fear and that their leaders are playing them for fools.
Don’t allow is to be labelled terrorists and terrorist sympathisers. We are good people and willing to work at building a better future for all of our people throughout this island loyalist included. But I am not prepared to tolerate this crap any longer, and I demand Dublin do more to speak up for us.
If they refuse, at least the people in the south will know we tried and were let down.
Are Sinn Fein no longer the voice of republican community? If so, the silence is deafening.
SF ditched Eire Nua and now 30 years later it has been dusted off and rehashed.
The original document as proposed by Ruairí Ó Brádaigh and Dáithí Ó Conaill envisaged a federal Ireland with a parliament in each of the 4 provinces and a central administration in Athlone.
Now it looks as if there will be a devolved administration for the North alone.
Is this the beginning of SF putting unity on the back burner and concentrating their energies southwards? One wonders.
The brexit referendum is an English issue with Tory on Tory
As far as regards UK governance – it should never have been held
With regards to the consequences in the UK – it raises major constitutional issues, none of them nice for Westminster
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/06/05/post-brexit-bye-bye-uk/
Again I ask, if a brexit could result in putting the border question on to the table, how and why arnt the Shinners not clamouring to support a brexit then? It looks like more of the same from s.f I.e doublespeak. Nationalists are fluent in reading that language these days. It doesn’t wash any more.
One experiences, Esteeemed Blogmeister, many a Richard Speck Moment down here in the Windy City of West Britiannia on Liffeyside.
One was reminded of this on reading your assessment of Matt Carthy’s proposals re. a Transitional Ireland. If it has to have any chance of being seriously discussed south of the Black Sow’s Dyke where the Greenless Rainbow is the new home strip of Emerald United (don’t ask) it might well have to undergo a brand renaming.
Something along the lines of say, a Transgenderitional Ireland, that sorta thingy.
Certainly as long as the Richard Speck Moment remains the cultish fad du jour in the diverse media outlets of the Free Southern Stateen..
Yesterday morning was a case in point, when one’s Sunday Masochist found oneself busily twiddling one’s knob on the wireless between two programmes which were being broadcast on competing (alleged) stations, simultaneously.
On one station we had that independently-minded book-worm, E. Harris ( aka Eoghainin na n-Aontachtaithe ) on Newstalk FM. By a quite astounding coincidence this is an objective station which somehow happens to share ownership with (gasp) the Sindo.
EH was picking his, eh, Top Five books, one of which, oddly enough, was from the pen of his fellow rebel countyman, Frank O’Connor ( ‘An Only Child’). And which Harris, Esquire introduced by saying that his brother Corkonian was strikingly topical on account of how he was- for F.O’C’s sake ! – ahead of the posse ‘now that we have come to fully embrace our British Imperial Heritage, such as the Boer War, the First World War etc’ .
Dat sorta tingy, like, boy.
This was a eureka moment , a sort of d.i.y. cue for EH’s first mention of Sinn Fein in the form of a thoughtful toe in the wholegrain bread basket. Mentions (unimpeded) which were destined to increase exponentially until, by the time the five books of choice had been parsed, and arsewise analysed, the eureka moment mentions of SF by EH had multiplied , to, erm, almost zika proportions. Imagine.
Torn between two dust covers who twiddled one’s knob to hear the Dame Dosh Finucane Show on Public Radio. Here the guest of honour of the overawed hostess was the Cryptic Voice Himself aka the Talking Head Mallon.
This is called, erm, choice.
What, one wondered could have coaxed the Eminence Gris Seamus and self-annointed Bete Noir of every Ignoramus out of well-deserved retirement?
Why, the synchronal re-emergence of Kingsmill and Birmingham, massacre and bombings respectively. Even Ladbroke’s could hardly have opened a book on this singular coincidence, much less the subsequent coaxing.
But before moving on to this unusual concomitance, a brief tribute was paid to the Gold-medal winning Greatest by he who was, seemingly, destined by Fate to be the eternal Silver-haired Medalist himself.
Not-as- famous- as- he would- have- liked- to- be- Seamus, now, alas, speaking more slowly than of yore, remembered Muhammad Ali before he became an M.A., when, as Cassius M.Clay he defeated – ‘I think it was a Cuban’ – in the light-heavyweight Olympic final of Rome, 1960 .
(Actually, for the benefit of slow-talkers from Ballymunningdale and other places east, it was a Pole who was poleaxed – Zbigniew Pietrikowki, known to one and all in his home village of Bestwinka as- Ziggy.).
One felt for the former deputy leader of this and the deputy leader of that; if he could be mistaken on such a basic point of verifiable fact what mega- blunders might he be tempted into stumbling.? Most especially, as a too obviously over-awed and gracious hostess was clearly in no mood to intervene. The pauses, one could not help noticing in the Mallonesque delivery have, sadly, stretched to Pinteresque proportions.
Reluctantly, one turned one’s knob off entirely. For fear – for instance – that two massacres might (gulp) inevitably lead on to a mention of a third one – the one perpetrated in Dublin and Monaghan by the G-Gang of Glennane. Leading even to a bar of an oul ballad:
Maggie’s Farm.
I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s brother no more
No, I ain’t gonna work for Maggie’s brother no more
Well, he hands you a nickel
He hands you a dime
He asks you with a grin
If you’re having a good time
Then he fines you every time you slam the door
I ain’t gonna work for Maggie no more.
This- entirely out of kilter with the zeitgeist – ballad is something which would not/ could not/ should not be countenanced on Liffeyside where the Richard Speck Moment is the only one to be lived in where The Constitutional Question is concerned
A Richard Speck Moment is so called in memory of the lanky, pockmarked, dirty blonde drifter in his mid-twenties, from Dallas, Tx, who, in 1966 (which, coincidentally, was the fiftieth anniversary of the 1916 Easter Carnage and the first anniversary of the release of the Bob Dylan song, Maggie’s Farm) committed that much sought after term, the Crime of the Century.
When he stole into a Nurse’s Home in Chicago, methodically tied up eight petrified student nurses and one by one, took each to another room when he summarily executed them with a kitchen knife.
Not the sharpest blade in the box himself, Richard Speck was soon rounded up in a flop house the next day.
And what happened next is what brought about the phenomenon known as The Richard Speck Moment..
No sooner had the newly arrested suspect’s photos appeared on telly and in the tabloids than a local married couple arrived at the Chicago Police HQ to declare that the man in the photograph – Richard Speck – could in no way have been the culprit. For, they both passionately swore, he had stayed with them in their apartment the whole night.
Although Chicago was then mainly famous for its stock yards and slaughter houses which are part and parcel of the beef business, nonetheless, the married couple could have told porkies for the United States of America. The grizzled precinct cops provided them with just enough rope to tie themselves up in contradictory knots before summarily turfing them out back on to the sidewalk.
Despite this salutary warning to would be fantasists the Richard Speck Moment is not only honoured in the Free Southern Stateen to this very day, but indeed is honoured more in the observance than in the breach. Indeed, it is reckoned to be observed as much in the Free Southern Stateen as in the whole of the rest of the world combined , if not, indeed, more so.
Why should this be so? Perhaps it can be explained by the respected science of numerology:
-For the eight nurses in Chicago, think the eight hundred years of subjucated Ireland.
Whatever the reason, the rush to exonerate the Richard Speck of British-Irish relaitons by providing him with an, erm, specious , alibi has long been, erm, official Government policy in Dublin. Witness the recent gratuitous grovel in Grangegorman (sponsored, ni ga a ra/ ca va sans dire by, yes, Specksavers) where no pock was left unmarked. Not to mention the full, erm, Richard Specktrum of Anglo-centric apologists on Liffeyside fm yesterday.
Back in 1966, btw, the husband and wife tag team of the Fibber McGee Foundation were, l. to r., male and female, respectively..
I’ll be voting for #Brexit for numerous reasons but the main one being I believe it would make Irish Unity all the more likely and even the very break up of the UK itself.
In reference to SF’s reconciliation campaign, I’ve always understood WHY they are doing it, it portrays SF and Republicans as being the ones at the forefront of encouraging peace, which is always a good thing. If Unionists reject that peace, as they have been doing, then it paints them in a very bad and negative light. You would think that Unionism needed reconciliation with Republicans more than vice versa in order to stabilize the Union but I think Unionism is just so surrounded by a “Not an Inch” culture that may have worked in the past but is very counterproductive in the present and will be in the future too, especially with a Catholic majority inevitable.
I agree with SF’s reconciliation campaign but I feel they are not making it clear enough to Unionists, and especially to their voters, that its not weakness, its generosity. SF have turned the blind eye to the allegations made against DUP Nelson McCausland and his alleged stopping of homes being built for Catholics and to the DUP refusing to give funding to a community centre in a Catholic area.
Reconciliation is very likely to be continually rejected by Unionism but that’s not the point, its all about showing who is for peace and who is against it. Maybe Republicans like me should have a little more patience and tolerate frustration for a while longer…..
“If Unionists reject that peace, as they have been doing, then it paints them in a very bad and negative light.”
Unionists have been rejecting peace? I missed that.
PS. Have you worked out why Brexit would spell the end of the GFA yet? LOL
“I agree with SF’s reconciliation campaign but I feel they are not making it clear enough to Unionists, and especially to their voters, that its not weakness, its generosity.”
It’s not “generosity” to stop killing people and then start doing normal things.
“It’s not “generosity” to stop killing people and then start doing normal things.”
If respect and tolerance are “normal things”, why can unionism not do “normal things”?
Sinn Fein weren’t killing people. ‘normal things’ only happen in normal society. Sinn Fein are trying to bring normality to the north. The Orange element hate normality because they need sectarianism to survive and stop Protestants feeling as Irish as Tone and Emmet felt. I don’t feel Sinn Fein are being generous for the sake of generosity, they simply have worked out how to bring about genuine normality which inevitably will lead to the emergence of the Irish nation.
“Sinn Fein weren’t killing people.”
PIRA, the ‘military’ wing of the Provisional republican movement, supported by SF, the political wing of that movement, was killing people.
” ‘normal things’ only happen in normal society. Sinn Fein are trying to bring normality to the north. The Orange element hate normality because they need sectarianism to survive and stop Protestants feeling as Irish as Tone and Emmet felt. I don’t feel Sinn Fein are being generous for the sake of generosity, they simply have worked out how to bring about genuine normality which inevitably will lead to the emergence of the Irish nation.”
It’s not normal to glorify terror. It is normal to do things such as attend events which the head of state also attends and to remember war dead. While it is good that SF have finally begun to do this, it should not be seen as ‘generous’.
If SF want reconciliation they need to do more than shake hands with royalty or lay the occasional wreath at a war memorial. Those are just normal things that normal people do. Instead they need to stop glorifyin terror and instead say they are sorry and admit that it was wrong.
“Those are just normal things that normal people do. Instead they need to stop glorifyin terror and instead say they are sorry and admit that it was wrong.”
In what way are they glorifying terror MT?
“In what way are they glorifying terror MT?”
By organising and attending terror commemorations and parades, by making speeches and statements in honour of PIRA terrorists and the PIRA campaign. They even named a kiddies’ play park after terrorist.
“By organising and attending terror commemorations and parades, by making speeches and statements in honour of PIRA terrorists and the PIRA campaign. They even named a kiddies’ play park after terrorist.”
So is the UDR statue in Lisburn glorifying terror?
“So is the UDR statue in Lisburn glorifying terror?”
Of course not. It’s depicting a part-time soldier at a vehicle checkpoint. Protecting people.
“Of course not. It’s depicting a part-time soldier at a vehicle checkpoint. Protecting people.”
Like they protected the Miami showband?
You are a scream MT
“Like they protected the Miami showband?”
Obviously not. The Miami Showband were murdered by terrorists posing as soldiers at a bogus checkpoint. The statue doesn’t depict that.
‘…say they are sorry and admit it was wrong.’
Still searching for sackcloth and ashes that you ‘don’t want’ I see. Goodness sakes move on MT. You’ll get repetitive strain injury next and then you will be looking compensation as a victim.
WT – see above to Ryan…
“Still searching for sackcloth and ashes that you ‘don’t want’ I see. Goodness sakes move on MT. You’ll get repetitive strain injury next and then you will be looking compensation as a victim.”
No, just expressing the view that PSF should apologise for the awful crimes of the Provisional republican movement. That’s not sackcloth and ashes. It’s called doing the decent thing.
I don’t need to move on. I live my life happily and peacefully and always have.
If the ‘decent thing’ had been done years ago everybody could’ve lived their lives peacefully and happily. Alas the British establishment refused…..by refusing to move on. Just saying.
So you agree sf weren’t killing people, backpeddaling won’t help.
How do they glorify terrorism? You speak nonsense. Meeting the Queen and laying wreaths for the British army aren’t normal, especially if you are a republican. If you think these things are normal you have no connection to reality, even in England most people don’t attend Ww1 commemorations or even care about the queen.Normal things are : Not being afraid of other religions. Having a fair society based on equal rights. Having representative government; the things that matter. Having your own people control their future.
“So you agree sf weren’t killing people, backpeddaling won’t help.”
I never said they were.
“How do they glorify terrorism?”
By celebrating and commemorating terrorists.
“You speak nonsense”
I don’t.
“Meeting the Queen and laying wreaths for the British army aren’t normal, especially if you are a republican.”
They are normal. And McGuinness didn’t lay wreaths for the British army: he laid them in honour of the soldiers who died.
“If you think these things are normal you have no connection to reality, even in England most people don’t attend Ww1 commemorations or even care about the queen.”
If you think they are abnormal you have no connection to reality. Political leaders meet heads of state all the time and regularly attend remembrance events and lay wreaths. It’s republicans who are out of step not the other way around.
“Normal things are : Not being afraid of other religions. Having a fair society based on equal rights. Having representative government; the things that matter. Having your own people control their future.”
Obviously those are normal too.
MT, just why would Brexit spell the end of the Good Friday Agreement, it is an international agreement, between two sovereign nations, registered with the UN and containing substantially greater part than simply the Dail Dún Dónaill, although, despite my pleas many years past to our then government to more strenously implement the ‘east west’ strand, this has really never been taken as seriously as it should?
“MT, just why would Brexit spell the end of the Good Friday Agreement, it is an international agreement, between two sovereign nations, registered with the UN and containing substantially greater part than simply the Dail Dún Dónaill, although, despite my pleas many years past to our then government to more strenously implement the ‘east west’ strand, this has really never been taken as seriously as it should?”
I’ve no idea. That’s what I’m trying to find out from Ryan. Why are you asking me?
Simply because it was your good self who posed the question here.
“Simply because it was your good self who posed the question here”
Yeah because I don’t know the answer!
Ryan made the claim then ran away when asked to explain.
Grand MT, I am not too sure I have an answer to that either but reference what I wrote before.
There are them, including the present Free State government (having a dreadful record on recognizing the democratically expressed will of people in the Republic of while in opposition) who claim the human rights element of the Good Friday Agreement will be lost if Britain, and the six counties vote out on June 23rd, now, long before 1998, or Oct. 2000, Britain was bound by the ECHR and decisions of the Court, ref. Ireland v. UK, even if it is ‘nil’ on the 23rd, the same obligations vis human rights protections shall apply to Britain.
From this standpoint, the GFA (1998) shall remain unaffected, as above, it is an international agreement, Peace monies are all but exhausted, and never in my opinion did anything substantial anyhow but, during the two year exit period shall continue to be forthcoming so, plus ca change.
Jude, a quick correction, Matt Carthy is originally from Connaught, he has the benefit of living in my Mother’s home town, a paradise in south Ulster and well on it’s way to celebration Monaghan’s Anglo Celt lifting, again.
I heard with interest yesterday what young Matt had to say about protestant inclusion in re-united Ireland, I myself always felt the Good Friday Agreement was a learning process for the protestant side of the Ulster population and would, and should, afford them long term protection in re-unification of a federal Dail in Dundonald, albeit, with, organic growth in control coming from Kildare St.and, equal input from London.
Now, the thing, and you do mention it, if the unionists do not wish to engage, too bad, there is a port at Warrenpoint, Belfast, Larne and Cushendall, go Dia sibh slan!
here’s what passes for “Normal” in NI
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2014/07/03/spare-the-rod-spoil-the-kafflick/