Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. That is what Google tells me when I search for Northern Ireland.
Ok, we know that, it is that division which allowed unionism to misrule, to discriminate and to start a bloody conflict against the Catholic population who felt more Irish than they do. Since the Good Friday Agreement, Articles 2 and 3 have dropped the territorial claim, so those who voted for it north and south, have de facto voted for British rule in Ireland and have supported the country of Northern Ireland within the UK.
You have supported a devolved assembly implementing British rule and according to the statistics on Google, you have accepted God Save the Queen as the national anthem of the Northern Ireland country. In return, we have the promise of self-determination so at some point: should there be a desire for unification of this island, it can happen.
Not saying it will as the conditions were never agreed and unionism currently has no interest in talking about it, never mind implementing self-determination. Hardly surprising since partition flew in the face of the democratically expressed wishes of the population at the time.
So will the Good Friday Agreement ever bring about unity?
I would say no, it won’t, it has created a greater division in Ireland than there has ever been. I was called a Brit by someone from Limerick while attending the 2016 rising commemorations. What it has done is made it acceptable to support British rule in Ireland throughout this island for it was supported by all parts of the island.
It has kicked the 6 counties out of the Constitution of Ireland, removing the territorial claim over those counties and instead defined the Irish nation as the people of the island and the diaspora throughout the world.
So all of you who voted for the Good Friday Agreement, including Sinn Fein, have voted for British rule in Ireland, a Northern Ireland country within the UK, God Save the Queen as the anthem, and I am sure it is only a matter of time until the loyalist rag is made the official flag of our new country.
I hope you are all proud.
But you will also notice in the interim to the loyalist rag being officially recognised by Google as the flag of Northern Ireland, there was an interesting little map showing quite a bit of red. See for yourselves.
Apparently, not only has the majority supported the new Northern Ireland country, but you have all run out and bought nice new British passports to go with it. The image shows the coverage of majority held British passports.
So all is forgiven to those in the south who supported this as you were only giving us what we apparently want. We deserve all we get, as this to me is an utter disgrace.
Obviously the majority of so called nationalists are perfectly happy to travel under a British passport, so we can hardly wonder why the British Secretary of State refuses to call a border poll or even discuss Irish independence or why Google has now accepted the will of the people and now considers Northern Ireland a country.
More and more details come out about the truth of British state collusion and the extent of their murderous campaign here. Those Irish people travelling on holidays with your British passports, I hope you hang your heads in shame as you hand them over, for you have the blood on your hands from every act of collusion, from every state murder and for the continued support for covering up those awful crimes through national security.
But you won’t, because you obviously have no shame. You make me feel sick.
Jessica,
I would calm yourself it is only Wikipedia hardly the fount of all knowledge and not to be depended upon for a definitive answer to any question.
Todays BT is reporting a surge in Irish passport applications and with Brexit on the horizon it will be come a deluge.
Yeah I agree BD that the passport things no worth getting to worked up over.
I know Unionists that travel on a Irish passport. I think the reason is maybe it’s cheaper or something.
I don’t think your passport in NI is representation of your position of the constitutional question.
The Irish passport is more expensive, I believe, Scott.
But you are correct about Unionists traveling on Irish passports, though I would not hazard a guess at why. Just like I would not try to second guess why some Republicans I know travel on a British passport. I genuinely wouldn’t ask why they do it, it’s their choice.
I am proud to say I voted against the GFA. Can I be pedantic and say that NI is not a country. It is a province. Not a province of Ireland like Ulster or Munster but a province of the UK. Thanks to those who voted for the GFA this uncomfortable fact is embedded in international law. It is hypocritical of those who supported the GFA to complain about it.
I understand how someone Who’s main driving aim is a United Ireland would feel discouraged by the abandonment of NI by the republic. People in NI who profess themselves as Irish citizens are not seen or treated that way by the people in the south or any southern governments.
You’ve layed out your objections to the GFA agreement, which basically means that it rubber stamped British rule in NI and the south accepted this.
However wether you agree or not with British rule it is the wishes of the majority in NI and even though you disagree with it unless you don’t believe in democracy you have to accept it. I disagree with democratic decisions but I accept them as a supporter of democracy.
The door isn’t closed to a united Ireland either under the GFA. All you need to do is convince a majority in the north and south that it’s in there best interests. That again is democracy and a system I’m happy with.
Perhaps anyone looking reunification should spend there time laying out the benefits of it rather than attacking and demonising unionists and the British government and demonstrate how NI would benefit the south rather than moaning about there disinterest in you. Changing people’s minds through debate would be the most effective means of achieving a United ireland.
“However wether you agree or not with British rule it is the wishes of the majority in NI and even though you disagree with it unless you don’t believe in democracy you have to accept it.”
How do you know that it is the wish of the majority?
It’s my best guess Jessica.
I’m taking into consideration the unionist majority in stormont, numerous opinion polls on the subject, the westminister election results.
There’s even a slim Protestant majority, although religions a crude indicator on the subject as polls I’ve seen say 25% of Catholics would vote to remain in the UK.
Can you provide me with evidence that a majority in NI want reunification?
“Can you provide me with evidence that a majority in NI want reunification?”
Of course not. But I would say a majority overall would welcome an honest debate and a realistic appraisal as to whether or not we would be better off with reunification and how the relationship between the two islands could be improved at the same time.
You say you are a democrat, but you jump on statistics that exclude myself since I didn’t vote for Stormont as a reason to avoid such a debate.
The truth is it is a no brainer that we would all be better off with unity, Britain would support us in implementing it and the relationship between the two islands would continue to grow stronger, with a unified economy small businesses would have a vastly increased local market without losing any trade with GB.
Yes an open and honest debate wouldn’t harm anyone and the fault of not debating it should be layed at the feet of nationalist parties. Why would unionist start such a debate considering they don’t want it.
Nationalist political parties seem to have little appetite for such debate as I suspect they know that at the moment they would lose such a debate.
I can only use the statistics I have at hand and it’s impossible to determine how people who don’t vote in elections would go in a reunification poll. They might vote for, maybe vote against or maybe not bother voting as they did in the elections. I think the sample size of an election result is also large enough to allow us to assume it’s a good representation of what people want.
You say it’s a no brainer that we would be better of and would be financially stronger in a UI, but offer little evidence how that would happen or even how the south would cope with us financially.
To quote a young Jeb Bartlet from the west wing “Numbers, if you want to convince me of something show me numbers”
Here’s a number for you the ROI runs a budget deficit of around 6 billion. NI runs a deficit of 10 billion. Even if we saved half of are deficit through integration (which I think is totally unrealistic) we would cost the ROI another 5 billion a year in terms of there budget deficit.
Quite simply put we would sink the Repiblic if unification happened anytime soon.
The focus for both Unionist and Narionalists shouldn’t be fighting over a United Ireland, it should be fighting over how to strengthen the NI economy to a point were it can stand on its own two feet and maybe then the Republic might accept us or the UK might be more enthusiastic about keeping us in the Union.
“Yes an open and honest debate wouldn’t harm anyone and the fault of not debating it should be layed at the feet of nationalist parties. Why would unionist start such a debate considering they don’t want it.”
Sorry Scott, first of all the responsibility is on the two states. They have the joint responsibility, not any of the parties.
I am well aware that unionist parties don’t want it. Unionism was prepared to start a bloody conflict to prevent it, it has done little to promote peace or reconciliation since and can barely share the same room with their partners in government let alone discuss leaving the UK.
I can understand your denial that we would be better off and your focus on the negative. But there is over 9 million people visit this island every year, not enough come north. That would be the focus of unification to me, a long term approach that would start by maximising our tourism industry.
If we could discuss our different aspirations together and sort the bloody thing out once and for all, we could have a conflict resolution centre at the maze, and not a glorification of violence but a museum of our conflict that would be the biggest tourist attraction on the island and kick start a major economic growth that would see the north become the wealthiest part of Ireland and allow us to build a country worth living in for everyone. Including the flag burning minority.
The potential would wipe out both deficits within 10 years and turn us into an economy not reliant on the EU never mind UK.
Long term, I would rather be out of the EU and have a stronger relationship with GB, but we need to sort out our differences first, including a proper conflict resolution process which involves truth denied by national security and a proper debate on unity.
The fact unionism isn’t prepared to consider this is a fascist approach and why so many refuse to accept Northern Ireland as a country but rather a sectarian cesspit.
I don’t see how it’s the duty of the British government to promote reunification? Unless is it in the GFA or something? Correct me if I’m wrong.
I am not in denial about anything Jessica, I’m asking about hard facts and points that prove reunification would be better for NI but you or anyone else I’ve heard have never come up with a convincing argument. Maybe you simply don’t have any and hold on to reunification as some sort of silver bullet but I really don see how.
Certainly let’s grow tourism in the north I’m all for that, but it certainly isn’t dependant on there being a United Ireland to do that. 30 years of troubles is what destroyed tourism for us but thankfully it’s now on a upward trend with 2.2 million last year which was a 5% increase.
I have no bother discussing our different aspirations but when someone says they are a Unionist or supports NI football team or voted for the GFA or when referring to NI state or anyone who travels under a UK passport you use terms like bigot, maggot, facist and that they make you sick. Hardly a way to have a proper dialogue is it.
Maybe instead of complaining about not getting what you want and demonising people who don’t accept your view you should articulate your vision for a detailed roadmap of how and what a United Ireland would look like and backing it up with evidence and facts. That would be a good read.
“I don’t see how it’s the duty of the British government to promote reunification?”
That would depend on how they value the relationship between these islands.
“I have no bother discussing our different aspirations but when someone says they are a Unionist or supports NI football team or voted for the GFA or when referring to NI state or anyone who travels under a UK passport you use terms like bigot, maggot, facist and that they make you sick. Hardly a way to have a proper dialogue is it.”
Unionism has been intransigent to the point of starting the conflict, it has been intransigent for 18 years following the GFA so don’t be surprised when people get fed up with you. Good will has limits.
“Maybe instead of complaining about not getting what you want and demonising people who don’t accept your view you should articulate your vision for a detailed roadmap of how and what a United Ireland would look like and backing it up with evidence and facts. That would be a good read.”
Sure, its the responsibility of the person on the street to produce a detailed roadmap.
How are you any different from any other unionist?
The British government values the UK-ROI highly I would say and the relationship has never been better. In fact it’s so good the UK were willing to contribute to the bailout a few years ago.
Well I don’t use abusive language as you do to describe nationalist or republicans Jessica even though I could and blame the atrocities of the past. Bad language is only a sign of a weak argument in my opinion.
Well a roadmap or a vision isn’t coming from the political nationalism so why not present your vision. It might help start the debate you crave and might even win a few more people to your cause. I’m not saying you have to produce a 1000 page document, just a grand vision would do with a few facts to back your assumptions up.
“The British government values the UK-ROI highly I would say and the relationship has never been better. In fact it’s so good the UK were willing to contribute to the bailout a few years ago.”
More so than they value NI I would say also Scott.
Why do you think that is?
No not really Jessica, they help us to the tune of 10 billion a year.
Also they don’t need to foster the same sort of relationship as we are part of the U.K. but I feel are relationships are good at the moment. Stronger than ever in fact, Scotland’s the weak link in the Union at the moment if I’m honest
“Also they don’t need to foster the same sort of relationship as we are part of the U.K”
Now that’s more like the subservient twaddle im used to hearing from unionists.
I am only too glad that I have my Irish passport as I would not want to offend Jessica anymore than she is already !
Maurice
I am afraid all those with Irish passports have blood on their hands also since the Irish government and people endorsed the GFA too.
Indeed those who did not vote for it have blood on their hands as they gave encouragement to dissident groups to continue their violence.
In fact everyone has blood on their hands apart from those who actually spilled the blood in the name of Irish Republicanism.
Apparently..
Look, Those in Rep Of Ireland will never really accept a nationalist in the North calling themselves Irish. Those living in Britain will never accept Northern Ireland unionists calling themselves British either. Outside these 2 islands you are still a paddy to the rest of the world.
If the biggest bigot of them all – Ian Paisley can say “I am proud to be an Ulsterman, but I am also proud of my Irish roots.” then surely the rest of us have more important things to worry about. If you’re from NI then you have a choice and you are what you feel you are.
I have Irish, British and Australian passports and born in NI. I see myself as mainly Irish but a hybrid of all 3 or 4 if you count a separate Northern Irish identity too.
Anyway now to more important things like Jobs, Education and Health…
There’s been presidents of Ireland from the north and there’s currently TDs and senators from the north.
Yes the GFA. A prime example of how the great and the good can manipulate ‘democracy’. For the record, the free state electorate did not vote for the GFA. They were not allowed that privilege. Rather they were challenged to vote for peace and this meant they had to vote on amending their constitution I.e articles 2 and 3. Just 55% of the free state electorate voted which although all sorts of conclusions can be drawn as to why 45% didn’t vote, it certainly suggested a substantial of people were not totally sucked into what the Agreement offered.
The north only got to vote on the GFA, and even though 80% of the electorate took the time to vote, a third rejected it and not all were unionists I might add. I wonder if SF hadn’t urged its voters to vote for it what the figures would’ve been? In fact recall the provisional movement initiating a letter campaign to ensure the agreement prevailed. I also recall older republicans claiming it was like turkeys voting for Xmas. It enshrined partition by enshrining sectarianism. Not only did it enshrine partition it managed to get republicans to do the enshrining.
Jessica, just because the Free Staters voted to remove Articles 2 and 3 – that is the ‘constitutional imperative’ – from de Valera’s catholic constitution, it doesn’t change anything from a Republican perspective. When 2&3 were still there, we still didn’t get any help from them. We have to stand on our own two feet and we, ourselves, will have to fight for what we want. And, by the way, it’s not a matter of us ‘joining’ the Free State; it’s a question of both 6 cos and 26 cos joining a new 32 co state.
I think some of the above comments are a bit harsh on the main point of the article. I think if you are Irish and that means something you, you have a right to be offended by people who just don’t care. Not caring is the main issue among nationalist Ireland, North and South. It is a far bigger obstacle to a United Ireland then Unionism.
Jessica has written before about the South ignoring the six counties, and she is right. But there is also probably as large a percentage of nationalists in the North who equally ignore the whole idea of being Irish and what it means – as is evident by the passport numbers.
But it has always been thus… and it is in most countries. People react selfishly in most instances. The unwaged and the lower waged vote in higher percentages for left of centre parties and generally parties favouring wealth distribution, and the higher paid vote for the status quo. One group is voting to get the other groups money and the second group is voting to keep it. The interesting people are those who react differently to what you would expect. But in the vast majority of cases, people vote and act selfishly.
The majority of people are un-politicised and want to live their lives without having to think about it so much. That is why there are people who will apply for a British passport because it is a few euro cheaper, and those who wouldn’t do it under pain of death. The challenge is to make people realise what they are doing.
Unionism is winning the cultural war north and south and by this I mean low culture or populist culture. If the BBC is the channel of choice in a house, that house is unlikely to ever vote on any issue that reflects a nationalist Ireland. If that house buys the Irish Independent, that house likewise is very unlikely to have any sort of nationalist bent.
Two things will change the mind set of people – 1. An emotive event of some sort, something with a similar impact to the hunger strikes or the 1916 executions, or 2. A slower route, where Irish culture gains a greater significance among Irish people. And I mean Irish TV programs that will compete and be watched by those with an interest in EastEnders and the X Factor (god help us!). You don’t compete with crap by giving some people Sean O Riada and Yeats etc. you compete by giving them Irish crap, in an Irish context.
Personally, and I don’t make a huge heap of apologies for it (I think), I think less of someone from a nationalist background with a British passport. As I also think less of someone from the South who knows nothing about the North and doesn’t care. It can’t be the sole rationale for judging people by, but it is generally a fairly good one as it also tells you how grounded the person is and comfortable in what they are. But me making a judgement is not going to change anyone, or me ranting at them isn’t going to change them. It needs to be a concentrated effort by some grouping who continuously and unapologetically campaign for equal, (or preferably) superior, status for Irish culture and language. Sinn Fein and the SDLP, might have good intentions, but they have no methodology (or at least one that works). RTE are practically treacherous in their approach to the six counties.
But failing all that, I would have to say I am more with Jessica then against!
agree with much of what you wrote, John T. here’s one idea of how to move things forward
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/06/09/building-the-irish-republic/
Interesting stuff Ben
Jessica, a few points to consider:
“Unionism has no interest in talking about it (UI)” – does nationalism have any interest in talking about a UI? If so, where’s all the talking getting them? why should Unionists talk about it? What is there to talk about? If Nationalists don’t know what a UI will look like, be like etc why should Unionists talk about or aspire to it? I have argued time and time again – an absence of a road map / blueprint on a UI only serves to impede and hinder the argument for a UI. Can you outline for those unionist readers what a UI would look like and why they should start talking about it?
“It has kicked the 6 counties out of the constitution of Ireland.” Really, what difference has that made, when long before the removal of articles 2 & 3, the Southern government had kicked the North out if their thoughts – this was just another formal ratification of this. The Anglo Irish Agreement may have given the Southern Government an advisory role in the North, but the agreement confirmed Northern Ireland’s status as part of the U.K. Gerry Adams referred to it as “the formal recognition of the partition of Ireland … A disaster to the Nationalist cause.” Even Jeremy Corbyn referred to the AIA in that it “strengthens rather than weakens the border.”
“So all of you who voted for the GFA …. Have voted for Brirish rule in Ireland” – I was 17 in 1998 and did not obviously vote in the GFA referendum – what was the alternative though, Jessica to the GFA? To vote no in the GFA and continue British direct rule from Westminster? Or establish an assembly and become involved in the internal workings of the North?
On passports, Jessica you state, “the majority of so called Nationalists are perfectly happy to travel under a British passport” – is that really the case? When you state Nationalist, what do you mean? Catholic? As no information links political persuasion to passport held:
From my reading into the 2011 census: 38.4% of Catholics hold a UK passport. 40.5% of Catholics hold an Irish passport. 36.1% of Catholics hold a UK passport only; 38.1% hold an Irish passport only. 19.2% of Catholics don’t hold a passport. I’m confused though how you conflate what passport you hold and make an anology with the appetite on a border poll? Regardless of passports held, does any evidence suggest there is an appetite for a border poll?
“Can you outline for those unionist readers what a UI would look like and why they should start talking about it?”
Should it be the garden of Eden, they probably wont want to talk about it until there is a nationalist majority and it looks likely to happen whether they talk about it or not. The whole convince us thing is simply do they can say no thanks.
“what was the alternative though, Jessica to the GFA? ”
There wasn’t one, which is why I didn’t bother voting in it.
It was a peace accord, the conflict needed to end and it was the deal agreed to allow peace develop.
The majority of people wanted peace and they would have given anything up to deliver it which is why it cannot be considered a democratic constitutional settlement.
I didn’t support it, but the alternative was to continue conflict and I could not bring myself to vote against it either.
It gave us no choice whatsoever.
“As no information links political persuasion to passport held:”
I never said there was. I was making a point, that as more evidence comes out about the true level of British state collusion and their involvement in the conflict, I hope those Irish who have a choice that choose to travel under a British passport instead of an Irish one are comfortable with their choice. I have made my feelings clear about it.
“Anyway now to more important things like Jobs, Education and Health…”
Well said Chris
“they probably wont want to talk about it until there is a nationalist majority” – When will that be? How will this make a difference? Will there be a Nationalist majority or a Catholic majority? Does a Catholic majority mean a UI is inevitable? The reason I ask these questions, Jessica is the fact a Catholic majority, predicted by 2020 (or so) does not mean a nationalist majority – this is a far too simplistic approach. For years many people believed a Catholic majority was the answer to the partition question – it isn’t. The religious denominations of the citizens of the North are only a stereotypical guide to their likely political preferences.
In relation to the convincing argument – again, with that absence of a blueprint and roadmap, its very difficult to convince Catholics (or nationalists for the sake of the conversation) of the merits of a UI, never mind Unionists. I feel the debate for a UI must start with a vision of what that society would look like and it merits be put to the people. As things stand, we are told that a UI is going to be better than what we currently have – without any knowledge of what it would be like, the argument is in theory dead in the water – this is unfortunate! A question to all the political parties, North and South – what have they actually done to further the cause of a UI? How has the goal of a UI became a prospective reality as opposed to a utopia?
“It was a peace accord, the conflict needed to end and it was the deal agreed to allow peace develop.” I totally agree with you here.
“the alternative was to continue conflict and I could not bring myself to vote against it either” – the continuation of conflict, don’t forget, would have left us within the remit of direct rule from Westminster – surely, would this not have been worse than devolved power to the North?
The principle of consent states both the legitimacy of the aspiration to a United Ireland and the legitimacy of the wish of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom. But I feel, a stumbling block to a UI could be the people of the South as there must be a consensus of a majority of people in both polities. If a border poll was to happen, would the South support re-emerging with the North? I know from the political parties in the South their manifestos support a UI but as stated above, what have they actually done to promote and further the cause of unity? However, I note David McWilliams sentiments in the event of a UK BREXIT could change this.
“The reason I ask these questions, Jessica is the fact a Catholic majority, predicted by 2020 (or so) does not mean a nationalist majority”
TheHist, I would have to be convinced about a united Ireland myself and while I am a catholic, I am also a republican so what does that say?
I am unhappy with things as they are, and the relationship or lack of it from our unionist neighbours. I am sick to death of the put downs and total blame for the conflict being levelled at my community. Having witnessed what went on, I find it unpalatable that this attitude is allowed to continue, never mind promoted in the south who I feel reach out more to unionism than to nationalists. Sorry for moping but it is true.
The south wants to become a little England which will be more appealing to unionists than republicans.
Where does that leave us and I mean republicans throughout Ireland. The division is no longer across the 6 county border. Surely there are some in the south feel as I do?
“In relation to the convincing argument – again, with that absence of a blueprint and roadmap, its very difficult to convince Catholics (or nationalists for the sake of the conversation) of the merits of a UI, never mind Unionists.”
I am unhappy with the current establishment in Dublin, but it is beyond my control.
All that I have left is frustration.
“I feel the debate for a UI must start with a vision of what that society would look like and it merits be put to the people.”
It will take a more potent catalyst to change enough attitudes significantly enough to engage in seeking alternative options.
While people are content, there will be too few willing to make real change to make it happen.
“the continuation of conflict, don’t forget, would have left us within the remit of direct rule from Westminster – surely, would this not have been worse than devolved power to the North?
I do not support or seek to justify violence or conflict.
If there is a peaceful alternative I will support that, so I could not vote for continuing a conflict that was causing so much hurt.
I would have preferred joint rule as I am opposed to division and devolved power is what has entrenched division. What difference has it made really, most changes are a result of an ending of conflict. In Stormont the conflict is still on-going, it is a constant reminder we are divided and unable to embrace equality. With joint rule, would we not be much further on?
“The principle of consent states both the legitimacy of the aspiration to a United Ireland and the legitimacy of the wish of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom. But I feel, a stumbling block to a UI could be the people of the South as there must be a consensus of a majority of people in both polities.
If a border poll was to happen, would the South support re-emerging with the North? ”
There is only one way to find out. But how is it a legitimate aspiration if no one is prepared to talk about it seriously for fear of a return to violence?
How is that different from the creation of the sectarian state to begin with?
“I know from the political parties in the South their manifestos support a UI but as stated above, what have they actually done to promote and further the cause of unity? ”
Actions speak louder than words.
…….. and while I am a catholic, I am also a republican. What does that say? Well, it says to me that you don’t know what a republican is. Are you sure you’re not just a constitutional nationalist or a six county oirish person?
You keep telling me im not a republican fiosrach.
Perhaps they should stop calling the community I grew up in a republican community then?
So what exactly is a republican, please tell me as I may very well not be one.
It isn’t a title I particularly like or nationalist, I consider myself Irish and that’s it.
Please clarify for me what exact criteria have to be met to be considered a republican and then I will know?
” I am sick to death of the put downs and total blame for the conflict being levelled at my community”
And this from the woman who recently said (without a hint of irony or jest) that (sic) the Unionists were responsible for every death during the troubles.
“And this from the woman who recently said (without a hint of irony or jest) that (sic) the Unionists were responsible for every death during the troubles.”
From a certain point of view that could be considered accurate.
Unionism likes to blame everything on republicans because the IRA were the most active and most deadly, but had unionism not started the trouble to begin with and for nothing, then there wouldn’t have been a conflict and no deaths.
Would be nice if unionism could at least acknowledge it had a hand in starting the conflict to begin with. But that doesn’t computer with not an inch does it?
From a different point of view, the IRA border campaigns may have stirred the pot? Or the rioting after the 50 yr marking of 1916. Prior to that the creation of NI may have put an all out sectarian war on hold: (although dev’s catholic state was probably just as stupid a state as Craigavon’s protestant state).
Before you descend into a spiral of chasing your own tail wataboutery…. please just at least accept that our complicated island, and its various jurisdictions, have fault on all sides, historic and current.
Your recent post along the lines of (sic):”I would prefer UI for Ulster to show Unionists what sectarianism is really like”, is one of the most depressing things I have ever heard! (In fact it is probably hate speech).
Anyway…I suppose you are drowning your sorrows with some Ukrainians. Try and share a bit of love, Jess.
Scott – really? So a persons nationality is of no importance? The ethos of a nation that a person belongs to is of no importance? The men and women of 1916 and the war of independence were wasting their time, they should have been forming a strategy to reduce unemployment instead? The Russians who who died in their millions to resist German advances should have been putting together a measles vaccination program instead?
I guess if your nationality means nothing, it can’t be imposed on anyone. But that is a very shallow position to be in.
Sorry John T I’m a little confused on what your point is?
I never said nationally is unimportant as far as I’m aware?
Scott… I think I am the confused one now. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick (wouldn’t be the first time in my life), but the below appears to indicate that the crux of Jessica’s article, which is to do with people’s nationality and the passport they hold isn’t as important as jobs etc.. Where I would argue you start with nationality and then go on to solve the other issues.
“Anyway now to more important things like Jobs, Education and Health…”
Well said Chris’
Oh no I do think issues like health, education and housing are more important than the whole nationality question.
those are the issues I would sort out first and I don’t see how changing the constitutional position fixes the problems in those areas.
You don’t see how harmonization on this island could improve our services for all of our people.
Lets see in 5 year time how you feel, when the debt will be over 10 billion and we will need higher taxes than any other region of the UK to remain in it.
I have not problem with north south cooperation to boost services or the economy but cooperation doesn’t need to be political reunification.
In fact I’m for cooperating with any one to boost the economy and services. Whether that be ROI, GB, EU or USA.
For the most part people on theses islands do get on and cooperate which is a good thing of course.
Here’s a joint up project I’d like to see happen. I’d like to see the UK and ROI governments get together with the EU regional development fund and build a new 6 lane motorway ( 2 driving lanes + hard shoulder) direct from Belfast to Derry. While there building it they could also lay a new train line which would branch of along route to service the international airport. The northwest would benefit from from a boost in the economy from being better connected to Belfast and Dublin and our international airport would now have a train line to our Capital and second largest city. Cost would be 1.2 Billion for the motorway, don’t know what the train track would cost.
“Here’s a joint up project I’d like to see happen. I’d like to see the UK and ROI governments get together with the EU regional development fund and build a new 6 lane motorway ( 2 driving lanes + hard shoulder) direct from Belfast to Derry. ”
You would like Dublin to put in money for a motorway between Derry and Belfast.
Now that is an interesting suggestion.
Yeah I know it’s maybe a reach for the Dublin goverment but you keep telling me you and many other nationalists are Irish citizens so why not get help from Dublin to build an all Ireland road network? Maybe improve connections the on from Derry, Omagh and enniskillen to the likes of letterkenny, Sligo and Galway.
It’s doubtful to happen though since it’s fairly clear Dublin doesn’t consider NI it’s problem, which is fair enough I guess since we are in the UK.
Oh, I would be very supportive of your suggestion Scott
Scott – I would disagree, first comes the constitutional position and secondly comes building the infra structures around that. If the priority was to maximise wealth and services we would all just apply to become another US state or German one. There is a lot more to nationality then the ability to get stuff from whatever state you are in.
On six lane motorways and the like. The Dublin / Belfast road is well fit for purpose at the moment, it handles the traffic with relative ease adding lanes would serve no purpose. It is a pity the northern side wasn’t given motorway status as pulling onto it in places is lethal – but that was a political decision. The south has actually been involved in northern road building projects and was supposed to be funding the Dublin Derry road until the financial crisis, it will probably come again. They will also be heavily involved in the Narrow Water bridge when it gets the go ahead.
John T
The motorway I was referring to was to connect Belfast and Derry. I agree the Belfast Dublins is perfectly adequate.
well said Jessica the gfa got the clintons elected and bertie a millionaire
well said Jessica the gfa got the clintons elected and made bertie a millionaire.
and the hunger strikers died for nothing.
Jessica,
Everything you say is correct. But you need to go deeper.
I’m glad to see that you for one, are coming around to my analysis on this whole issue.
This whole sordid travesty started, when SF let hunger strikers die – for political advancement.
‘What’,- we should have been asking ourselves- ‘will these people NOT do’?- to achieve political power.
They asked ‘volunteers’ to give their lives from this point – right through the 80’s and 90’s, -knowing that they were going to walk into Stormont hand in hand with the ‘psycho’ who started the war. Never mind the thousands of innocents who died and continue to suffer whilst these SF gangsters drink champagne with the queen of England and their minions march along in lockstep.
The GFA as you so clearly point out,- copper-fastened this ‘MASSIVE’ sellout to the British- of EVERY Republican ‘ideal’ that we ever had,- and shamefully made a mockery of the sacrifices of generations of true republicans. I have been pushing this point for years.
And so we have this ‘SF establishment’ ‘dilution’ of republicanism where the mere mention of the phrase ‘Sinn Fein IRA’ sends them into a convulsive frenzy of ‘victimhood’.
We are further away now from the UI objective than we were in 1922.
We cannot blame the SDLP – because they are not republicans.
SF are serial liars and deceivers – and they ‘sleepwalked’ the republican community into this political cul-de-sac, because the ordinary people were not privy to the ‘financial’ machinations of their leaders in pleasing their ‘moneymasters’ in London and New York.
They even want to keep us in the corrupt corporate EU monstrosity.
Look at the GFA powerbrokers : James Reuben, Richard Perle, Nancy Soderberg, Richard Haas, Mitchell Reiss, Paula Dobransky etc etc…….
All Major Banking/Corporate sharks and AIPAC members who, through the IMF and World Bank, BUY FUCKING COUNTRIES !
That’s what this whole duplicitous project has been about.
Republicanism is not the problem.
Sinn £einn is the problem.
Someone above asks about numbers.
Some interesting ones in this article…
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2016/05/16/daily-note-a-nation-once-again-dont-write-it-off
Well worth a read in its entirety but some interesting points…
“A cursory glance at the performance of the Northern Irish economy since 1922 would suggest that the Union has been an economic disaster for the people of Northern Ireland. They have been impoverished by the Union and this shows no sign of letting up.”
“If we go back to 1920, 80 per cent of the industrial output of the entire island of Ireland came from the three counties centred on Belfast. This was where all Irish industry was. It was industrial and innovative; northern entrepreneurs and inventors were at the forefront of industrial innovation. By 1911, Belfast was the biggest city in Ireland, with a population of close to 400,000, which was growing rapidly. It was by far the richest part of the island.”
“Fast-forward to now and the collapse of the once-dynamic Northern economy versus that of the Republic is shocking. Having been a fraction of the North’s at independence, the Republic’s industrial output is now ten times greater than that of Northern Ireland. Exports from the Republic are €89 billion while from the North, exports are a paltry €6 billion.”
NI’s economy is a basket case – and has become such as a result of partition.
The much cited subvention of 6 billion a year only amounts to a couple of percent of the republics GDP – and would disappear with the creation of a decent economy.
“NI’s economy is a basket case – and has become such as a result of partition.
The much cited subvention of 6 billion a year only amounts to a couple of percent of the republics GDP – and would disappear with the creation of a decent economy.”
This could be turned around faster than it would take to plan and implement the unification of two economies, two currencies, two administrations and so on.
There would be no financial burden to the republic for unification. By making the moves to implement such change both economies would grow and all the cost burden would be on the English tax payer, where it should be until we sort things out.
The biggest issue is dealing with legacy issues and getting over a conflict which no one side deserves total blame for, including the British state who need to own up to its own wrongs. How else can we move on?
Jud
This is the sort of thing I’ve been asking for and I read through it and although it has some good points it’s a little weak in parts.
First it’s by a journalist and while his opinion is completely valid, I would prefer stats from more reputable institutions such as the IMF, UN, EU central bank etc.
Secondly he blames the economic stagnation of NI on partition and NI remaining in the union which I believe is wrong. The two most damaging things in the 20th century to the NI economy has been globalisation which has seen heavy industries which were once the bedrock of the NI economy move east. This is a world wide trend and the fault of no one. The second fault of the stagnation of the NI economy was 30 years of violence that destroyed industries and scare away any foreign investment. That trend is reversing now so hopefully things are on the upward curve so watch this space.
The other point the journalist makes is that the change in demographics (more Catholics than prods) will equal reunification. As I said before I don’t think being Catholic equals a guaranteed vote for reunification as many polls I’ve seen say that 25% of Catholics would vote to remain on the UK.
Thank you for putting the article up anyway. I find things like that very helpful in forming my own opinion.
“I would prefer stats from more reputable institutions such as the IMF, UN, EU central bank etc.”
You think they have the interests of small businesses who are what is driving our economy at the moment?
They are more interested in ensuring the their bond and loan repayments are met and will put a countries people including small businesses through hell to make sure they are.
“Secondly he blames the economic stagnation of NI on partition and NI remaining in the union which I believe is wrong.”
Partition is a hindrance to small businesses, mainly due to different tax regimes and currencies, legalities on a small geographic area which are to the advantage of corporates who have the resources to manage them or even bypass them through being setup in both jurisdictions.
The biggest direct source of business opportunity on this island is Dublin and partition is a disadvantage to small businesses in the north from accessing it.
Your beliefs are based on nonsense. Talk to the people running small businesses and you will find your answer there.
“The two most damaging things in the 20th century to the NI economy has been globalisation which has seen heavy industries which were once the bedrock of the NI economy move east. This is a world wide trend and the fault of no one. ”
Really. If we as a small island were 100% self sufficient in renewable energy, less businesses might be leaving over the high energy costs on this island.
Ask Ballymena
“The second fault of the stagnation of the NI economy was 30 years of violence that destroyed industries and scare away any foreign investment. That trend is reversing now so hopefully things are on the upward curve so watch this space.”
18 years after the GFA and you are saying violence was our problem. Unionist intransigence, political divisions and cultural animosities have nothing to do with it. You are getting to be as hysterical as MT.
Unionism is a ball and chain on the economy of this island. Without unionism we would be a united and economically successful nation full of potential.
And to try to justify partition by saying we would be better off in a 6 county population than an all island population.
How can you expect anyone to take you seriously Scott if you can utter such nonsense.
“The other point the journalist makes is that the change in demographics (more Catholics than prods) will equal reunification. As I said before I don’t think being Catholic equals a guaranteed vote for reunification as many polls I’ve seen say that 25% of Catholics would vote to remain on the UK.”
The electorate are very fickle, 50% of nationalists may support the UK one moment because it suits their pockets if that is their priority, but once it doesn’t, do you think when there are tax rises to remain in the UK, they will vote the same way. The catholic community is a mainly nationalist community.
Those institutions I mention are reputable organisations who are experts in there fields at analysing economic models so I would be more interested in there appraisal than small businesses.
I work for a small business my myself Jessica. We sell construction tools and we currently sell 90% of our products to the south and we have no problems in fact it’s an advantage. Here’s a few reasons why.
Irish consumers we deal with prefer us to larger uk firms who we normally struggle to compete with. I think they like are more personal touch.
We do a lot of business in Dublin because the high cost of living in Dublin compared to Belfast makes us more competitive.
The different currency means that we are competitive especially when the euro strengthens which helps us greatly, in fact it’s the biggest advantage.
Our lower vat rate means that people pay less vat on our products which again increases are competivness.
We actually thrive selling into the south and ares is only a small business employing 8 people. We have no hindrance from a border, in fact we garner a few advantages but for the large part it doesn’t effect us at all.
A lot of this is due to the fact we are in the EU so I’m hoping we vote remain on Thursday. Fingers crossed.
The economy takes a generations to grow especially since it was so hugely devastated. You really think the troubles still don’t have an effect to this day? Really? The economic trend has been upwards however so I’m hopeful.
I’m not saying partition has been bad or good for the economy of NI. I’m saying that other events such as globalisation, the Troubles and the 2008 recession had far greater effect. In fact partition hasn’t really effected the economic fortunes of NI at all I would say.
The things you want such as renewable energy, services etc could be done easily without political reunification.
I would like to see people vote on the pros and cons of the issues and change who they vote for accordingly rather than have it stamped on your forehead at birth your a prod you vote unionist or your a catholic you vote nationalist, that would be a healthy place to get to.
You have to say though at the moment unionism seems to be winning the economic argument? What you think Jessica?
“You have to say though at the moment unionism seems to be winning the economic argument? What you think Jessica?”
They are? You would need to tell me what is the economic argument of unionism actually is.
All I hear is we have to make do with whatever the grant is given from England, live within that budget and pay taxes if necessary to remain within the UK.
Any mention of joining with the larger economy on this island is considered taboo and causes an allergic reaction manifesting in your heads going right up your arses.
No, unionism is a ball and chain on our economy, but it will lighten as your population dwindles and eventually the shackles will be discarded and we can finally move on.
But you are a democrat so you wont have a problem with that so we will just play the waiting game.
“I work for a small business my myself Jessica. We sell construction tools and we currently sell 90% of our products to the south and we have no problems in fact it’s an advantage. Here’s a few reasons why. A lot of this is due to the fact we are in the EU so I’m hoping we vote remain on Thursday. Fingers crossed.”
That is an incredibly high percentage of sales going south. Any wonder you are worried about a Brexit.
Just goes to show the risk external factors can have on economic stability while we operate two economies on this island.
I hope whatever the result your business remains prosperous.
Well I disagree with most DUP policy but the place they have my support is the decrease in corporation tax. A new NI with lower corporation tax, inside the UK legal and tax system that many companies favour and (hopefully) in the EU free trade area. To me that makes this place an extremely attractive to foreign investment I feel. Could be a game changer.
I consider anyone from NI as “my people” Jessica yourself included and I always put the welfare of them first. I’m happy to accept a UI if it’s for the overall benefit of the people of NI, but at the moment anyway the union has all the benefits for me.
“Well I disagree with most DUP policy but the place they have my support is the decrease in corporation tax.”
I also agree with the DUP on that one, they are no mugs Scott.
Tax harmony across this island is of course going to level the playing field.
It will attract inward investment at a corporate level and has the potential do deliver large volumes of well paid jobs and even spread them outside of Belfast.
I would like to see the development of the road all along the M1 around the Maze. Couple low corporation tax with massively reduced rates there and other investment incentives to encourage large business to kick start the development process leading to construction jobs followed by full time jobs in a central location.
Reopen the train stop already there and there is such potential.
We would need to borrow to achieve this investment which would require unity as Northern Ireland is not a country and is unable to borrow. Sinn Fein with the finance ministry are proposing borrowing from London so that opens up the potential to kick start an economical revival prior to unification.
I look forward to seeing whether London will step up as failure to do so will damage any claims Northern Ireland is a viable country and prove beyond doubt that partition is holding us back.
From Jessica’s post above – ‘It isn’t a title I particularly like or nationalist, I consider myself Irish and that’s it.’
I actually always thought things were the wrong way around. The Irish are the Unionists who would like the North and South to be one Union again and the British (or current Loyalists / Unionists) are the ones who want to uphold their nationality regardless of what actual country they are in – so they in fact could be termed nationalists.
The term nationalist can be (and is) used as a subtle insult by people who say we shouldn’t be worried about such things – it isn’t a bad idea to challenge it.
“I actually always thought things were the wrong way around. The Irish are the Unionists who would like the North and South to be one Union again and the British (or current Loyalists / Unionists) are the ones who want to uphold their nationality regardless of what actual country they are in – so they in fact could be termed nationalists.”
We are all actually Irish on the whole of this island. Unionists I refer to as British separatists.
They in reality aren’t British as Britain is the other island but they also cannot accept they are Irish hence want to be separate on the island of Ireland.