I’ve always been a bit amazed at how Derry has succeeded in overcoming the Apprentice Boys problem. It was the Apprentice Boys’ march, remember, that sparked off what is now known as the Battle of the Bogside in 1969. Then the British troops arrived (and were cheered by nationalist crowds), disillusionment set in and conflict began in earnest. So how did Derry turn itself into a city where Apprentice Boys are allowed to march without hindrance?
Frankly I don’t know. It seems to me a breath-taking example of how a nationalist/republican city can somehow incorporate, without rancour, a tradition that was for so long a vehicle for triumphalism. Ask anybody in Derry who remembers the city pre-Troubles: an old tradition was for bandsmen marching along the walls to stop and hurl pennies down into the Bogside. Presumably in the hope they’d hit someone but certainly as a way of expressing their contempt for the inhabitants. And yet the Apprentice Boys have marched in mid-August for years now and the city has been trouble-free. Whether they’ll stay that way after the chanting Fenian-bastards crowd, we’ll have to wait and see. But Derry does seem to have done the impossible. And since the overwhelmingly nationalist Derry and Strabane council believe in rotating the role of mayor between the main parties, Derry even has a DUP mayor, albeit one who was otherwise occupied during Bishop Eddie Daly’s funeral.
Has unionism shown the same spirit of generosity? Not that I’ve noticed, though I’d be delighted to be proved wrong. Chris Donnelly, I think it was, recently asked us to imagine the unimaginable: how about Lisburn having a republican mayor, how about thousands of republican bandsmen converging on that place and marching through it, without let or hinderance. That creaking sound you just heard was the noise of your imagination suffering a terminal hernia.
Where are the unionist politicians who can stand up and work to achieve the tolerance that Derry has shown ? Nowhere to be seen.
How long this sort of nationalist/republican openness to unionism can last, in the face of the Bogside bonfire on the one side and the Fenian-bastard-chanting dunderheads on the other, is worryingly uncertain.
Jude, now it is time nationalists rein in their generosity and stop embarrassing themselves.
It puts me in mind of a man love sick over a woman that doesn’t want him, he will do anything for her attention – that unrequited love Yates talks about.
Nationalists should have a bit of respect for themselves and stop this pandering to people who clearly don’t want to treat them as equals. Because its starting to sicken the voting base.
Unionists cant do equality, its against their reason to be. If unionists ever showed equality or any respect to nationalists, it would show that nationalists had a point all along.
One should take a read at the old papers from around the country from the 1800’s (there is plenty of archives available online), its amazing how unionist biased and protestant these papers were. Any reference to people was always in terms of their religion.
That upperhand attitude has prevailed throughout the home-rule bill attempts and then through the sectarian headcount formed 6 counties.
Unionists cant be equal, they must not be for their own identity sakes.
So nationalists please stop pandering to them and have a bit of self respect. The killing has stopped – sure thats peace enough is it not?
Yes of course Republicans are wonderful people and you are quite right Unionists should embrace them warmly and say lets forget the past.
I would have no problems letting some republican bands march in front of my house i am sure they are wonderful hard working people who have contributed wonderful things for Northern Ireland i might even be able to put some manners on them at a push.
But then what would you have to write about Jude if you were not being unpleasant to Unionists, how would you get your media fees?
I and the unionist community would hate to see you considerable writing abilities go to waste and that indeed would be a crime..
Unionism seems quite content to forget its own murky past never mind its murky present Robert.
Jess, I think they call it selective myopia!
I still think bigotry is the best word to describe unionism in Ireland
******* could be a be a good way to describe that argument Jessica.
No unadorned abuse/insult, please, Robert – Jude
As they say in Americe” Get over it”
You’ll not change them with reason, kindness, sensible action , reaching out, rolling over …..
Go about your life and don’t let them raise your blood pressure. Our day will come as sure as the sun rises in the east.
A very laid back approach BG.
I can just imagine you strolling along the beach in the sun without a care in the world.
Lets hope you are right. It is a pity you couldnt share some of that actual sunshine along with your positive upbeatness.
I still think bigotry is the best word to describe unionism in Ireland
You let a mass generalization like that pass and censor my contribution completely mad and sorry i will use the word ignorant to describe Jessica
“You let a mass generalization like that pass and censor my contribution completely mad and sorry i will use the word ignorant to describe Jessica”
You can hardly claim it to be a mass generalisation while the leadership of unionism act unanimously in their own self interests, while they maintain a total intransigence on everything they disagree with such as Irish language, the Maze project which has such massive tourist revenue potential, refusal to acknowledge their own past for the benefit of a fairer future.
I am not talking about general public, it is elected representatives who are coming out with curry my yoghurt, holding their noses, and rogues and renegades to name but a few.
What hurts you most Robert is that it is true.
“i might even be able to out some manners on them at a push”…
This.
This is the exact attitude from unionists Jude and Jessica touch upon regularly.
Michael
“it is about putting manners on the police.”: Gerry Adams
“It is Sinn Féin’s intention to put manners on the entire civil service,”: John O’Dowd
“Sinn Féin will put manners on the elites and the fat cats.” :Gerry Adams
“S F is the only party to represent the whole Island.Sharing power in the Six Counties and putting manners on the Unionists” :Jim Neeson (SF activist I believe).
I agree it is the kind of phrase and attitude that should have no place in grown up politics.
There’s a difference been an inherent superiority mindset over your neighbour and standing up for oneself due to discrimination at state level.
Oh and the fact that nationalists tend not to want to antagonise their neighbour by marching through areas/entire cities they are not welcomed.
Perhaps we should go back to the standing up for oneself stance again and to hell with the hand of friendship and reconciliation. Afterall it is slapped away all too frequently.
Why am I not surprised that you would support politicians and public servants behaving ill mannered to one another?
Now, a unionist supporting the use of good manners, well that would be a surprise.
jessica
Assuming that is addressed to me, I am just pointing out that the ‘we are going to put manners on them’ mentality is sadly present in both communities.
If it is bad from one side then it is also bad from the other.
How am I supporting ill-mannered behaviour?
The bogside bonfire has nothing whatsoever to do with the reasons nationalist/republican openness to unionism should end.
In fact I would say the tolerance to unionism should not only end, but also the tolerance of dissident thugs, who lets face it, are probably more of an issue.
There sane on Nolan this morning. I think only JD does high dudgeon better than Nelson. He was of course complaining about Nestle’s decision to drop a piece of advertising here. It was insulting,, etc, etc. Malachi was trying to explain about how goods are marketed but no, this was republicans demonising The OO.
Unfortunately, no one was there to point out that nobody has done more to besmirch their reputation over the years than members of that organisation between murders, riots, pogroms and walking in circles.
The most important point was missed, Nestle’s ceo doesn’t believe people have the right to clean water but then the BBC is never going to raise that point.r
It is about time that nationalists caught themselves on. They continually offer the olive branch, the rotation of mayors in Derry being an example, that keeps getting taken advantage of.
Over here in East and Mid Antrim we are treated like dogs. The council has such a hatred for all things fenian that they even got angle grinders out to remove the word “uisce” from manhole covers lest the citizens forget that they are British.
They do not fund any 1916 commemorations, they send out contractors with police escorts in the dead of night to destroy small 1916 memorials, refuse to appoint nationalists on council bards and external panels.
Unionism is an “all duck or no dinner” creed, it should be treated accordingly, for nationalist controlled councils not to exercise the same dictum is betraying their compatriots who are less fortunate in their area of residence.
I would support a resolution among nationalists to adopt a winner takes all strategy until unionists agree to come to the table to develop a protocol to address these issues throughout the six counties.
This is, after all, a political blog. Jude is an open and frank Irish nationalist and his choice of material is, and will be, endless. When a united territory comes, he and we will have some serious stuff to chew the fat over. Never worry. If a republican band marches in Lios na gCearrbach your problems will end as a judean heart attack would surely follow.
This a “political” blog only in so much as our every action is a political one in some way or form .how our lives are lived . Jude may have a traditional Irish Republican personal viewpoint , in as much as he sees the outworkings of a proper “republic” to be the desired final option for the whole of Ireland, but he’s is still open to discussing many and varied viewpoints and arguing their different merits.Let’s face it , not everyone writing here has anything like the same points of view either political or social. We’re all different and the idea that we can be plunked into two narrow camps appalls me . When all is said and done , he allows us (including me) to write about anything that might add a bit of flavour or another spice to the menu.It doesn’t have to be all about grisly politics…or what casually passes for politics in this place …if it did , it would be an indigestible meal. So no …I don’t just see it as a wholly “political” blog. Some of the so-called “political “viewpoints are sometimes not so easily compartmentalised.
We just let you on to pretend that we are non sectarian,harry, and you have nothing to say at home so you can unburden yourself here. Jude has a soft spot for dreamers, heh heh.
“We’re all different and the idea that we can be plunked into two narrow camps appalls me ”
What about one camp Harry, Irish?
Referring to the natives, migrants are of course most welcome.
You missed the whole point Robert.
Oh far from it I and many other understand Jude very well.
Well the ‘fenian bastard chanting dunderheads’ will be of course be condemned by the ‘moderate’ unionists as unfortunate or whatever but then the moderates will then argue we shouldn’t generalise all unionists as supporters of the dunderheads. Job done. Nothing changes. Moderate unionists said they were wrong(nudge nudge wink wink) so we must take their word for it and not look at their actions I.e next time the same moderate unionists will still be amongst the dunderheads pretending they are nice people.
The thing that angers me more is the pandering of nationalists ‘leaders’ to this continued bigotry. Ffs we had that clown bishop mckeown attending the apprentice boys crap. This same clown minded people not to glorify the centenary 1916 commemorations. Is it any wonder people believe the Catholic Church worked hand in hand with British governments of yesteryear to ensure Irish republicans never attained real power on this island? The Catholic Church is only there to control the Irish people for the church own vested interests. It’s not looking out for the people; it’s a parasite living off the people.
WT, – I don’t know where you ever got the idea of ‘moderate’ unionists.
Some may claim, or pretend to be, but watch their antics during the Twelfth season and you will clearly see through their veneer.
Maybe its the heat of the bonfires mixed with the liberal slugging of alcohol that brings out their natural bitterness.
And yes, Sinn Fein especially should stop making generous gestures which will never be reciprocated, and allowing the DUP to veto anything they don’t like.
They have got their feet too far under the Stormont table, got used to the perks, and have forgotten the reasons they were elected in the first place.
Only when they waken up to the real political situation will they have any chance of improving their voting figures again.
After reading today’s blog and for the second time in 24 hours, Esteemed Blogmeister, the name of Francis Fukuyama came to mind. The first time was yesterday after Michael Conlan’s mugging in the pugilistic ring of fire and unfairness.
Francis Fukuyama, of course, authored one of the non-fiction books of the age:
-The End of History.
It is a bench mark of political clarity and common sense. One does not have to frack far into Fukuyama’s work to strike oil:
-The ‘desire for recognition’ sounds like a strange and somewhat artificial concept, the more so when it is said to be the primary motor driving human history. ‘Recognition’ enters our vocabulary from time to time, for example when one of our colleagues retires and is given a watch ‘in recognition for years of service’. But we do not normally think about political life as a ‘struggle for recognition’. To the extent we generalize about politics, we are much more likely to view it as a competition for power between economic interests, a struggle to divide up wealth and the other good things in life.
As the piece about the Bogside in today’s blog indicates, EB, the good ol’ Apprentice Boys had more than mere economics on their minds when they hurled pennies in a downward direction from Londonderry’s walls. Their hurling was, of course, concerned with recognition: recognizing the Bogsiders as their inferiors.
Curiously enough, on the same weekend, the (gulp) Unionist Times were indulging in a similar class of carry-on from the towering walls and halls of Tara Street. What prompted this latest bout of coin-hurling (to coin a ph.) was the failure of the public address system during the playing of the National Anthem/ Antrim/ Tantrum prior to the game involving the Irish hockey team at the Olympic Games in Rio.
Seems like the team didn’t make a great pucking fist of the words, or even a mouth indeed, whatever about the malady of the melody. This is unsurprising, as (a) the words are in compulsory Leprechaun; while (b) hockey is also known as ‘Protestant hurling’ (a term coined,incidentally, by Andy O of Drimnagh, Dublin 12. Contrary to a widespread and mistaken impression, Andy O actually meant the coinage as a compliment).
Cue a bout of coin-hurling by the bye-word of inclusivity, The Unionist Times, directed down upon the Bogoak Monolith (a term coined by Conor C of Howth, Dublin, 13. It is is unclear to this day whether this coinage was positioned under signage pointing towards ‘Mallacht’ or ‘Moladh’).
The non-Ireland’s Call, in this piece, incidentally was hilariously referred to as ‘Shoving Connie around the Field’ . One dislikes to be pedantic when it comes to Paddy stuff but ‘Field’ is inaccurate and ought to be ‘Green’. An understandable solecism, perhaps, given the close proximity of the postal codes assigned to Green and Field.
That this outburst of halfpenny hurling should occur in the Saturday edish of TUT (two or three bridges down from the Halfpenny Bridge) will not have ambushed anybody familiar with a revelatory piece in the Saturday edish some weeks prior. This was when Miriam Lord was doling out her gongs of the political season. It might be said her piece was sufficiently incendiary to set the h. blazing with pride.
-For a job well planned and well done Heather Humphreys gets the gong for an assured steadying of the 1916 commemoration. When she was appointed Minister for the Arts the project was behind schedule and lacked direction. Heather got stuck in. What we got was a nationwide programme of events.
Nationwide, M’Lord. Which nation might that be, M’Lud?
Now Heather Humphreys is the Philip Marlowe of the current cabinet south of the Black Sow’s Dyke: just as the private eye famously ‘walked down Mean Streets without being mean himself’, so also Heather Humpreys is a savoury public person unfortunately compelled to implement unsavoury policies.
She is coyly referred to as ‘Minister for the Arts’ by M’Lud. In fact, that’s only scratching the surface. Her full title in fact is: Minister for the Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltactht Affairs.
Hmmmm.
Why, one wonders, is M’Lud so shorthanded on behalf of The Irish Times? This is the same organ of uber open-mindedness which stirred up such a hooh-hah about the name of Rosa Parks being taken in v. in the recent past.
Consider this political fact: when Heather H first took ministerial office her title was: Minister for Arts and Gaeltacht Affairs. Long before that, there used to be a (gasp) Minister for the Gaeltacht. Year on year, it would appear, on prima facie evidence at least, the Gaeltacht portfolio is being bumped towards the back of the Ministerial bus.
Rosa Parks would recognize this whittling away of recognition. Now while Heather Humphreys has many admirable qualities, not least her genial partiality to the amateur dramatic movement, for her to be cast in the role of Rosa Parks in this particular melodrama of political dissing, is a wrong call.
Which is not to say there is a ready-made role model to step into the part. One, indeed, who shares many similar qualities with Heather H. not least where personality, gender, geography and religion are concerned. What makes her eminently more qualified, however, is her Homeric grasp of Leprechaun.
-Linda Irvine o OIrthear Bheal Feirste.
An dtiocfaidh ar L.I. ?
All it would require of the Free Southern Stateen government would be a small dollop of Resourcefulness, Unorthodoxy and Brio. Such as is being displayed by SF and other generous fenian b’s in Norneverland.
Aye, but there’s the R.U.B.
So can I be educated a bit please?
Did the DUP sign up to the GFA?
Who said “Never, never, never!” In response to what?
What does “Not an inch ” mean?
Why is anyone, repeat anyone, surprised at the lack of reciprocity coming from the unionist community?
Time to read Susan McKays book again.
Stop wasting your energy on this!
Spend your time herding cats. You will have a better chance at success. Or take a Walk on the beach or in the country. Do some gardening.
In the not too distant future the taigs will attain the majority and hopefully will comport themselves in a far more civilised manner than those currently in power.
All fair points ,Beachguy. “Time and tides waits for no man” …as Mr Chaucer once repeated after St. Marher, apparently intoned something similar ,somewhere around 1225 AD …(“And te tide and te time pat tu iboren were, schal beon iblescet.”)…
Mind you …my days as a cat-drover are now long over, due to the vicissitudes of that same “time”. I find serenity now , away from the growl of political illiteracy ,in wistfully herding honeybees to no apparent avail.As for the notion of anyone comporting themselves differently in a future time….take a look at how they are behaving elsewhere and ask yourself if you see any real noticeable differences in politicians’ behaviour in the UK, the Republic of Ireland or the good ol’USA down through the ages..
In fairness one should not always generalise from the particular. In Newry we have a group to commemorate the Young Ireland movement. (Well to be honest, in time-honoured Irish tradition there are TWO groups, a split having occurred a few years back.)The Newry-Dundalk-Carlingford area has close links with the radical Young Ireland movement of the 1840’s, many of whom were Protestants. John Mitchel and his cousin John Martin were both from Newry as was John Kells Ingram author of the most famous song about 1798, “The Memory of the Dead”.. (‘ Who fears to speak of ’98?’) Many local unionists are intensely proud of the connection. They are also proud of the Protestant rebels of Newry executed in 1798, Cochrane and Lowans. Newry’s Young Ireland group holds most of its meetings in Altnaveigh House an ‘Ulster Scots’ heritage and culture centre funded largely by EU funding and by Newry and Mourne Council. They give us the use of the premises free and the Board of Ulster Scots has contributed generously to fund various projects. We hold an annual Famine Commemoration in the local Paupers Graveyard of the former workhouse, now Daisy Hill hospital. Clergy of all denominations attend and speak, as sometimes do I, a humanist. An Irish Lament is playedon the pipes by one of our members, an Orangeman. When Newry.was chosen as the venue for the first National Famine commemoration, a local Orange band, the Crimson Arrows paricipated.I like to think Newry could be a blueprint for the New Ireland where mutual respect for our respective traditions and those of the “new Irish” would obtain.
Oriel27 has hit the nail on the head I`m afraid, Unionists do not do equality, as he/she rightly said, if they did their whole argument would be in tatters. Unrequited love can be very embarrassing. There is a thin line between reaching out and rolling over, the base have started to notice and that is why Sinn Féin took a little bit of a hit in the last election.
I think your comments are very perceptive, Jude. Many years ago, when the Apprentice Boys parade was indeed very divisive and problematic, a former SDLP mayor of the city (now sadly deceased) described Derry as a nationalist city. The Pat Finucane Centre however publicly challenged that description preferring to regard Derry as an Irish city. Its a significant difference. Derry wasn’t always a nationalist city and who knows what it might be in the future, a socialist city perhaps? But it will always be an Irish city. And that means it will always want to be a place where Irish people (whatever other label they attach to themselves) will be welcome to celebrate their culture and traditions in a peaceful and respectful manner. In microcosm that is exactly what a united Ireland will (and should) look like. To me that is a blessing, not a curse.
nd that means it will always want to be a place where Irish people (whatever other label they attach to themselves) will be welcome to celebrate their culture and traditions in a peaceful and respectful manner. In microcosm that is exactly what a united Ireland will (and should) look like. To me that is a blessing, not a curse.
That would be believable if Republicans had not tried to bomb us out of the Union call me cynical with SF`s track record is it any wonder that few unionists are prepared to trust let alone listen to anything coming out of the Republican movement?
You do realise Robert that the first bombs of the troubles were unionist.
Unionism started the trouble, started the killing, started the bombing.
Why should any republican trust unionism when it still refuses to acknowledge a well documented, historically accurate and globally accepted truth?
Did Republicans have to use violence Gandhi didn’t Martin Luther King didn’t they could have stopped their campaign they didn’t at all.until thousands lay dead.
“Did Republicans have to use violence Gandhi didn’t Martin Luther King didn’t they could have stopped their campaign they didn’t at all.until thousands lay dead.”
So it is not that Unionism didn’t have to start it in the first place, you are saying that republicans didn’t need to fight back.
And as for stopping it.
It took 10 years for republicans to end the conflict over agreement of wording so not to accept defeat,
But Britain refused to accept there was a stand off with the IRA and it wasn’t until the canary wharf bomb when London asked the British army if they could guarantee they could prevent another such attack as it had huge financial cost and they had to acknowledge that they could not, reinforced by the Heathrow triple attack, that they had to admit they could not win.
The British government are responsible for the prolonging of the conflict more than was necessary, but unionism is responsible for starting it.
Republicans were indeed ruthless in their execution of their role within the conflict and caused the majority of deaths.
But that is what conflict is, that is all that conflict is. There is nothing good will ever some from it.
Pretty sure nationalists tried the civil rights movement but they were shot and beaten off the street.
But that’s not a campaign of violence…..silly me.