That Bogside bonfire put Eamonn McCann and Chris Donnelly in opposite corners. McCann described it as “an act of defiance”, while Donnelly said it was no such thing, it was an anti-social act, showing no respect for the environment or the surrounding community. In my usual role of oil-pourer on troubled waters, could I suggest that both were right?
It certainly showed no respect for the environment – clouds of black smoke don’t make it any easier for Mother Earth to cope with our self-destructive tendencies. And some 80% of locals were opposed to it. But it could be – was, I would say – an act of defiance as well. “You’s should’nt have taken our wood!” ( Shades of the fraught days of the Hunger Strike graffito: “7 Dead Saves Are Led”. Are these people really that illiterate, or are these deliberate errors to throw authorities off the scent?)
When you’re young, fires are fun. I remember as a child cooking eggs in a tin can on a small fire at Easter, and in my teens staring into the smouldering remains of the living-room fire while listening to late-night Radio Luxembourg. And of course there are those annual Eleventh Night bonfires.
But that’s when you’re under-developed mentally. Thrusting the burning brand into the pallets (Hello, Paul Givan) puts you in the same camp as the caveman and primitive warriors whooping as they circle the flames. Almost thirty years ago Feile an Phobail replaced the 15 August bonfires in Belfast – a shimmering example of how a community can grow up if it wants to. This takes us back.
The Bogside bonfire is a reversion to the primitive. Besides having that ghastly spelling, it had Union flags, DUP posters and – significantly – Sinn Féin posters. And it’s at the latter that the defiance is aimed as much as anyone. The people who put the SF posters on the fire are saying they think Sinn Féin have sold out.
In one primitive act, they’ve brought nationalism and republicanism down to the level of the Eleventh Night morons, with their religious statues and Irish tricolour part of the conflagration. The Bogside pyromaniacs have even gone further: they’ve declared their contempt for all Sinn Féin’s efforts. At least the Eleventh Night bonfires didn’t include Arlene or Nelson posters.
In a way you can see why that Lecky Road spectacular happened last night. Cocking a snoot at the authorities and political opponents by burning them must put a contented feeling in your gut. But it also puts us firmly back in the two-tribes interpretation of the Troubles, with the efforts made to move nationalism/republicanism beyond a flame-lit war-dance set at naught.
Republicans – or some pseudo-republicans – have said “The hell with reconciliation”. The DUP must be delighted.
Is there another police service in Western Europe that would allow a bonfire to be constructed and set alight in the middle of a public road ?
Last night was utter incompetence and a shameful failure from the PSNI. An organisation that seemingly believe it’s up to communities to do their job for them.
Is there another police service in Western Europe that is forced to allow so many criminals a free reign because they are agents of the states intelligence services?
In fairness to the PSNI Cal not every police force in Western Europe has to worry about whether while out trying to remove such bonfire, they will be killed by a van stuffed with Semtex on route or that there’s a sniper lurking somewhere waiting to murder them. The PSNI operates under the constant threat that it could all be a set up to murder them.
While I agree that this and many, many other bonfires should be stopped and removed in NI, it’s far easier said than done.
I’m sure you can play it through how it would go if the police tried to remove this one. Police arrive, youths gather, stones thrown, petrol bombs thrown, riot police arrive, water cannon arrives, blast bombs thrown, rubber bullets fired and possible injury or death of either a police officer or civilian.
That’s exactly what the dissidents want. Provoke the situation then hope for a over reaction by the PSNI to drive more people into there ranks.
There’s been a lot of criticism of the police today and while I personally would like to see them be more proactive in removing bonfires of all descriptions I don’t envy there job trying. As usual they will simply end up in the middle as the sponge to soak up all the violence.
Ms May will be unable to see the conflagration from the Swiss Alps, or those MLA’s who choose to ignite bonfires or have photographs taken as flames light up the night air.
Reporters use the adjective, “controversial” in relation to the Bogside bonfire. One reporter is already talking about bonfires in 2017.
Politicians fiddle as bonfires get bigger and more dangerous. It is time to address the ambivalence about the use of cherry pickers, tyres and pallets in what passes for cultural expression.
Bonfires ought not be described as controversial, they are unacceptable. There is a range of sanctions for motoring offences, litter and the management of pets in public. Similar robust sanctions are the only way to deal with such anti social behaviour.
Republicans never lit bonfires on the 15th August which is a religous feastday. Feile replaced the 9th August internment bonfire.Interesting that McCann describes the mimecry of the worst aspects of Loyalism and it’s sectarianism as “defiance”.Eventually Eamon will discover that his attempts to ride several horses at the one time will be his undoing.Claiming that he and Carroll are neither Nationalist or Unionist when even a cursory example of voting transfers show 98% of their vote comes from the Nationalist community.Lecturing the rest of us about tribalism and then showing ambivalence towards the worst examples of tribalism in Derry.Sitting with a group in the Dail that condemns a border poll and then claiming to support a border poll as the free state section of PBP recently did.They are a mass of contradictions.
They were talking about this on Radio Foyle as I was driving through yesterday and they gave the impression that this spawned from a police raid at 6am on Thursday to take away wood from some sort of bonfire storage area:
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/residents-anger-over-police-operation-at-bonfire-storage-site-1-7521849
“Residents said police arrived in the Bogside at around 6am on Thursday. One woman said: “It was like something from 1969 to be honest. There were armed officers, jeeps, cameras on top of jeeps. It was far, far too much. “When I look at these young people here today- they see not 100 yards from here, a bonfire that is celebrated, that is socially acceptable, that is partly funded, and then they stand now this morning and see armed officers coming in to remove their wood. “I am no fan of bonfires by any means but I will not encourage the children of this area to accept that discrimination. If it is not the case that all bonfires are stopped then you cannot stop one and allow the other to continue.”
Personally I detest all these bonfires which are nothing sort of burning rubbish in the street. I was at The Lumiere Festival in St Columb’s Park a while back – now *that* was culture. Burning pallets and an old sofa from “our Steven’s” house because he can’t be assed taking it to the tip is not.
That said…
…if we have 3 guys: Sammy from The Shankill, Sean from The Falls and Sebastian from The Malone Road we can’t treat them differently. Sammy has to be treated the same as Sean who has to be treated the same as Sebastian. Otherwise we will have chaos.
From the perspective of these Derry hoodlums, they saw monstrosities going unhindered in Belfast – one blocking the road to a hospital and another where a children’s play park had to be move to accommodate it for goodness sake – yet there is a police raid to prevent their equivalent monstrosity. And they’d have a point. At home, we’d never dream of punishing one twin and not the other if they both committed the same offense so why should it be any different in wider society? Sammy, Sean and Sebastian need to be treated the same.
Authorities felt that this one was too close to an electricity substation but that won’t matter a jot and will be quickly forgotten. What will remain is fuel for those who believe the whole “PSNI=RUC” rubbish and that SF didn’t stand up for their community, hence their posters on the fire. They will talk about ‘themuns’ having no problems while state forces were to drafted in to stop ‘ourwans’ and it will flow into their victim/siege mentality.
Me personally? On January 1st I would tell everyone that in the upcoming year unless bonfires go through the correct channels then there will be similar raids. Then I would visibly enforce it so the communities know that the authorities have their backs regardless if they are Sammy, Sean or Sebastian.
The problem here is not bonfires Morpheus, but the divisions within our society and they are the direct result of unionism.
They caused the division in the first place, they brought the sectarianism, they persist with the sectarian traditions and refuse to make any effort at reconciliation.
How can we move on while these divisions between the UK and Ireland remain?
Without these divisions, would there be any interest in bonfires in 2016 at all do you think?
While London and Dublin prefer to wash their hands off the overlapping territory where their national interests are intertwined, the situation will continue and from here will probably start to deteriorate.
To see this problem as one of rights to have bonfires is folly.
The rights of Irish citizens are being trod upon from both Stormont and Leinster House.
It is time the people of Ireland were allowed to choose our own destiny.
Very good morph, I agree.
A warning from Jan 1st and then at the end of the summer display the various heads on spikes as a reminder.
(I’m being metaphorical).
Totally agree Morpheus. Let’s have some of that from Ist January next year…no ifs and no buts about it..
“Republicans – or some pseudo-republicans – have said “The hell with reconciliation”. The DUP must be delighted.”
I would be the first to say to hell with reconciliation with unionism.
What I would be more interested in, is their opinion on what they think this is saying about reconciliation with the rest of Ireland?
In that regard I imagine the DUP will indeed be delighted.
On another note, I can see Eamonn McCann is going to fit right in up in Stormont.
He can sit on one side defending “acts of defiance” and the unionist collective on the other defending “civil disobedience”.
And what are we paying them for the privilege of such leadership, £40K each is it?
Then again, he is a communist. I suppose he feels the roads should belong to the community and we should be entitled to burn things on them if we choose.
As you are aware, jessica, the roads belong to the Queen and it is the job of her gunmen to keep them open.
Yes, I am sure the queen is feeling totally put out about the whole incident.
Interesting that you are more concerned about her than the local community. What do you think that says about you fiosrach?
It’s the summer , innit?!!!!. That means…no school…endless days… lots of idling about , making mischief and mayhem and anything for a bit of entertainment. “C’mon let’s all go and throw stones through the windows of that old factory , fellas!”….”.I bet you can’t climb up that drainpipe and walk along the top of that roof!…go on …I double-dare ye!!
Let’s face it , what notion would a child or a teenager in the year 2016 have of “the Troubles” and the wranglings of political knavery that has got us all to this point in time. ? Eh? They’d have no notion of the bloody tedious horror of it so they’re getting their ideas second-hand for starters. As you point out Jude, there is an illiterate seam running through all this nonsense too .The little beggars can’t write or speak the language by the look of the parsing on their posters , so we’re not talking about young open-minded scholars here, either.
So what does any of it mean, eh? Mostly a whole lot of japery and devilment which results in getting a nice big hole burnt into the middle of the road. Some geg all right! That’ll get the peelers in an uproar and we’ll be able to bounce rocks off their jeeps!
Let’s not try and make political capital out of any of this nonsense either. “Bonfires are bullshit”, should be the byword right across the land because they cause nothing only environmental hassle all round and are harmful and dangerous…. besides breaking the laws of the land. It’s simple but the powers that be are in disarray as to how they should be dealt with. It’s nonsense and criminal but some stupid politicians think that bonfires are “cultural” and a great focu for the community.How dumb is that? .
Eamon McCann’s problem is that after fifty years of railing against the establishment and their 30 guinea suits he now finds himself part of the establishment. He is now in the position of all revolutionaries who eventually get elected – like the Provisional Alliance. He hasn’t mastered the art yet of both pissing into and out of the tent at the same time. Who would have thunk it, that the hairy PD man of 1969 would be joining the nationalist rebels in the great white sh##ehouse on the hill. But it was an act of defiance – against him as much as against the deppitty dawgs of PIRA who are trying their best to channel the nationalist populace into the fold of Hausfrau Saxe Coburg Gotha. The bonfire was situated in a stupid place and built at a stupid time.
Wow….”30 guinea suits”, fiosrach….!!!!!…you mean to get it dry-cleaned …eh?
1970, paddy
Changed times fiosrach…and just before decimalisation too! …15th February 1971…as if we hadn’t enough trouble to contend with at that time….Remember when they changed all of that, eh?No more pounds , shillings and pence in the blink of an eye….oh the nostagia of a thirty guinea suit…ha ha!!
mccanns near enough,the same gang taking the wood and jackbooting it over the locals are the same outfit who attacked their parents and grandparents in the battle of the bogside.they can see nothings changed.
The titles of two novels, Esteemed Blogmeister, came to mind on reading today’s blog: ‘The Bonfire of the Vanities’ and ‘A Confederacy of Dunces’. Each competing for supremacy in the most apt department.
Both, interestingly, are derived from the writings of two clergymen, one R.C., the other Anglican: Savonarola in one instance and Swift in the other. One heck of an ecumenical choice.
Two song titles too by one hell of a songwriter also come to mind: the first of these is The Unicorn. This was a big hit for a Canadian-based ballad group of Norneverland origins: one hesitates to say it was the only spiraling hit which projected from the recorded forehead of the foursome:
-There were green alligators and long-necked geese
Some humpy-backed camels and some chimpanzees
Some cats and rats and elephants , but sure as you’ll find
The loveliest of all was the unicorn.
But it is the second song from the swell Shel Silverstein (for it is he !) which is more apropos the topic of the mo: ‘Put another Log on the Fire’. In this compelling lyric, while drilling an artesian well deep into the human psyche, Shel nonetheless keeps his tongue well and truly in his cheek:
-Put another log on the fire, babe
Cook me up some bacon and some beans
And go out to the car and change the tyre
Wash my socks and sew my old blue jeans. .
This ironic task, one feels is far beyond the wit, if not indeed totally outside the remit of the vain bonpyromaniacs of Norniron:
-Then put another log on the fire, babe
And come and tell me why you’re leaving me.
As to why the Sinn Fein posters were tossed on to the bonfire/ tine chnamh last night, EB, could it have been that the matchstick men and other torch singers were operating while still under the influence of (gulp) the Joe Duffy Show?
Consider the following:
Yesterday being the 40th anniversary of the Peace People Joe was determined, and then some, to commemorate it. He is not the Honorary Consul of the SDLP on Liffeyside for nowt. Nor can his far from idle claim that ‘he and his show provide excellent value for RTE and the licence-payer’ at just under 400,000 squids a year for just over (gasp) 4 hours manning the public phone lines a week, be lazily discounted.
-Talk to us, Joe.
Joe talked to us. In fact, he did more than that: he read to us. From a dog-eared page in a buke, oops, book by G. Adams, TD in which he wrote how ‘not only was Danny Lennon shot dead at the wheel by the British Army but the Maguire children were also shot by them as well’.
Now, in fairness, going backward, while an avuncular Joe duly pointed out that G. Adams was a ‘fine writer, a thoughtful writer’ nonetheless ‘ he went on to say that the President of Sinn Fein ‘ did sit down and write the above’.
It is not, be it noted, the first cnamh/ bone that Joe D has been fired up about where Gerry A is concerned.
Whatever the rites and wrongs of these media spats it must be recognized by all and sundry both from the tundra and the highlands alike, that when it comes to, erm, historical imprecision Joe Duffy is one who eminently deserves to take a loan of our ears. Whether said loan be short-term or long-term, whether secured by adequate collateral or not.
For Joe is a recognized global authority on precisely such matters.
As recently as last Good Friday, in the spiritually uplifting ambiance of the Unitarian Church on St Stephen’s Green, Dublin 2, Joe was so moved as to intone ‘Easter Week 1916, Dublin was the most dangerous place on Earth for children’.
Now, while 10,000 children were killed each week of the Great Donkey Derby 14-18 this does in no way negate Joe’s claim, by one iota. For that figure of 10,000 children was the average killed on a weekly basis and did not necessarily relate specifically to Easter Week 1916 in Dublin. Could be that a mere 39 children were killed elsewhere that particular week, with the shortfall being made up the following week when 19,961 were killed.
Did one mention that Joe delivered his homily on the Good Friday of a Holy Week bookended by the flogging of his own buke, oops, book, entitled ’40 Children’ ?
Throw another Sinn Fein poster on the bonfire.
Loved ‘Bonfire of the Vanities’, Perkin. Thought ‘Confederacy of Dunces’ over-rated…
You have one up on me there, EB.
Like yourself loved the ‘Bonfire of the Vanities’ but still – STILL ! – haven’t got around to reading ‘Confederacy of Dunces’ by John Kennedy Toole.
Whether that’s because of a subliminal predge against the surname of the author or a more recent inability to obtain it on Kindle, one is not too sure.
Great title, though.
Halloween bonfires were always fun, everybody joined in, no mention of politics at all. What I find sad are the middle aged men who talk about culture, as if setting fire to a pile of tyres and wood is in any way cultural. When I see these hideous monstrosities I am put in mind of the film The Wicker Man.
Billy ,you do talk some shite at times.The people of the Bogside were surveyed and 85% of them wanted NO bonfire anywhere in their area.To compare the cops trying to take away bonfire material which the community wanted removed with the battle of the Bogside is typical disso nonsense.
pre selected people in surveys dont really count,hundreds of posters on f/b from the bogside are saying they never heard of it.certainly its comparable,painting the armoured cars a different colour changed nothing or do you think their a different gang now.your typical disso nonsense excuse shows your the one talking crap,that excuse was burnt out yrs ago,the people aint listening anymore (the bxxxards).
You think you talk for the people do you billy?
You are another hoot. You and MT should team up, you would make a great comedy duo.
These kids are being manipulated by criminal elements posing as republicans but who are self serving and only interested in the control they can have over their own communities. They will be used, abused and abandoned, they will probably end up in prison or as agents to MI5 or both.
Who do these people think they are? Sitting in pubs and telling people to leave the table while they “attend to business”. Morons
These people who lead these kids astray deserve no respect. They are cowards. there is no honour among them, they will rat and squeal and do the bidding of their handlers when it is required of them. The kids who end up in jail for them, well, I hope they don’t expect any support from the communities for their early release.
You can try your best to recreate the days when the RUC and army terrorised republican communities billy, but those days are gone forever. I remember them well, they are scarred in my brain and I can tell you things have changed completely. The only people terrorising republican communities today are these thugs who have the combined intellect of a baboons arse.
You think you speak for the people. Ha!
In billy land
i only speak for myself,thanks very much.
by the way whats these complete changes that have taken place.
Well billy, I am confident today that my kids wont be struck on the forehead by a British soldiers rifle butt on their way home from school and have to walk 3/4 mile home with blood pissing out of their head.
Likewise they will not have to endure the constant harassment from RUC every time their paths cross.
Parents today can be happy that their children and young people are safe to go out and enjoy their young lives without the fear of bring caught up in completely random sectarian loyalist shootings.
I could go on but those sort of little things billy which may mean very little to you, but they mean a hell of a lot to some of us.
We all know things are far from perfect, but God help anyone and I mean anyone who brings conflict back upon us.
maybe the force you support now has convinced you its changed times,no more harassment,no more rifle butts to the head,no more directing loyalists,no,no,we wouldnt do that everythings changed.
have you moved to the malone rd lately.
billy, the best thing republican armed groups could do would be to negotiate in return for completely decommissioning and a stand down, for MI5 to leave Ireland and an end to national security censorship of evidence.
If they achieved that, it would make such a difference for I am well aware of MI5s recruitment activities, but what do you believe they could achieve through violence that would match this? Are they totally infiltrated or is there any genuine desire to remove britain from Ireland left in there?
The bitter truth is we are at the mercy of Dublin who at the present time is siding with England.
i wouldnt know or care what they could achieve,or if their infiltrated or not it doesnt concern me.
“i wouldnt know or care what they could achieve,or if their infiltrated or not it doesnt concern me.”
and it shows billy
how many of them feel the same I wonder
I am very happy to see bonfires, they are part of the tradition of our island. I grew up with the 15 August bonfire. I loved it then and I love it now. They should be encouraged and controlled.
The extremes of behaviour must always be curtailed. Bonfires should not have been built in the middle of roads, should not be of a size to endanger the public and so on. But they are as much of Ireland as gaelic.
What really is the issue here is the defiance, as McCann rightly says.
Sinn Fein do not like the people not following orders. They have lost the support of a large number of the youth of the Bogside, are starting to lose control. And they don’t like it.
No thanks.
Bonfires need to end period and there is protocol for criminals who get out of control.
Some simply need prison and other households of hoods need to be put out of these communities and moved into other parts with bar orders from returning.
That has worked in other parts for such hoodlums and that is all these people are.
I am sure the good people of the bogside would be only too happy to see the back of them.
That is what is needed for them
I refuse to accept that I m a hoodlum, I enjoy a bonfire – I take the children, I also am not a criminal. The particular bonfire location was not right, should never have been at that location.
What are you saying Croiteir, that bonfires don’t attract criminality, drunkenness and debauchery?
They certainly did when I was a youth and the evidence wouldn’t support this.
And are you saying the majority of people want them or that because you do the majority opinion doesn’t matter?
Please clarify
I am not saying anything other than what I did say.. You put words in my mouth if you want, many people go to bonfires to watch the spectacle and do not engage in the activities that you outline. Those activities do not need a bonfire to occur and happen at quite a lot of public and private celebrations.
I also did not say that the majority of the public wants them, but quite a proportion of the public do.
It is remarkable of course that the reaction to the continuation of an old Irish custom, with religious links, is vilified by Sinn Fein and other lefties. (I am not calling you in particular this Jessica but talking in general) yet they were supportive of a 70ft bonfire in Derry which was funded by the arts council to the tune of 100,000. Interestingly enough it was the rev David McIlveen who was making claims about drunken debauchery on that day.
I understand that Croiteir, and I agree with you that it should be possible for a bonfire to be perfectly family friendly, but at the same time we cannot ignore the reality that these bonfires do more harm than good.
That is all I am saying.
My last attendance at a republican bonfire was in the 80s and I was engaged in underage drunken debauchery then so I can hardly expect youths today to do any different. I would support the promotion of feile as an alternative and it should be funded.
Lets leave the bonfires to unionism.
But there you have it Jessica. I will not be losing my cultural inheritance due to what loyalists actions. That is a form of surrender. Instead I want to see it developed into something better, organised and controlled to allow families to enjoy, the kids staying up late and having a street party, the band parades to the bonfire at tend of the day from Mass and a prayer to the Virgin before lighting. I have no time for the hoodlums that seek to denigrate the tradition, We have lost a lot culturally in the past 50 or so years, I can see no reason to lose this just because a political party want sole control.
That is a more than reasonable argument Croiteir.
You are absolutely right. A small number of people can ruin so much for everyone else.
Around July 12 the rule of law in N Ireland is suspended!
The police refuse to do their duty around bonfires which should be illegal, saying its a community matter.
Civil servants, council workers and HE workers take their lead from the PSNI, denying any responsibility for bonfires, flegs, or painting roads and footpaths red, white and blue – they actually facilitate the law breakers, and the PSNI go out protecting the fleggers, boney builders and street painters.
In no other country in the world would law breaking be protected and encouraged by the forces of law and order, backed up by all shades of unionism!
So is it any wonder that some fools think that bonfires should be permitted in nationalist areas, even though they are just mimicking the brainless loyalists?
The copycat strain that is a theme within nationalist culture still.persists, albeit in much reduced form, through bonfires, flute bands and painted kerbstones. Murals of course is another copycat element, although nationalists have at least adopted their own particular style of those.
“The copycat strain that is a theme within nationalist culture still.persists, albeit in much reduced form, through bonfires, flute bands and painted kerbstones. Murals of course is another copycat element, although nationalists have at least adopted their own particular style of those.”
A few hoods led by a few dissident republicans don’t represent “nationalist culture”, MT.
Are you trying to say that Nationalists build bonfires, have bands and paint kerbstones because Unionists do it MT?
Well for a start, as Jude pointed out, the vast majority of Nationalist bonfires ended when they were replaced with Feile an Phobail, that was nearly 30 years ago. The remaining bonfires couldn’t even be considered Nationalist when nearly every Nationalist politician opposes them and 99% of the local Nationalist community want to see them gone. They are built by hoods and are used for drinking fests and anti-social activity. They are simply not nationalist anymore and haven’t been for decades. Obviously Feile an Phobail isn’t copying anything, its a uniquely Irish festival.
But bonfires weren’t invented by Unionists MT lol they have a long, long history in the World predating even the English or Irish language, the Irish Language being the older of the two by far.
No, MT, most groups and organisations have bands. I know Unionists admire their own bands but they aren’t that glamorous that we would copy them.
Painted kerbstones? I have been alive for over 25 years and I have NEVER seen Green, White and Orange kerbstones, never. I have obviously seen Red, White and Blue kerbstones but I cant think of a better way of making an area look cheap and tacky than to paint kerbstones.
Murals?? Well I have no idea who used the first mural in the North but the most famous murals by far are Republican ones, specifically the Bobby Sands one on the Falls Road. Gerry Adams has been seen with a few famous faces giving them a personal tour of Republican murals, Hollywood Actor Vince Vaughn was one. Martin McGuinness in the 1970’s returned home one day to find Actress and model Jane Fonda waiting for him in his kitchen. Obviously Fonda is a lot older now but judging by photos of her in her younger years, if I was Marty I would’ve thought I’d died and went to Heaven….
Overall, Republicanism wont be copying too much from Unionism MT, no sensible group would want to have the reputation and image the DUP/UUP have.
“A few hoods led by a few dissident republicans don’t represent “nationalist culture”, MT.”
Nobody said they did.
“Are you trying to say that Nationalists build bonfires, have bands and paint kerbstones because Unionists do it MT?”
Yes. All three of those cultural manifestations (in their modern form at least) are an imitation of the loyalist equivalents.
“Well for a start, as Jude pointed out, the vast majority of Nationalist bonfires ended when they were replaced with Feile an Phobail, that was nearly 30 years ago. The remaining bonfires couldn’t even be considered Nationalist when nearly every Nationalist politician opposes them and 99% of the local Nationalist community want to see them gone. They are built by hoods and are used for drinking fests and anti-social activity. They are simply not nationalist anymore and haven’t been for decades. Obviously Feile an Phobail isn’t copying anything, its a uniquely Irish festival.”
Indeed. That’s why I said it persisted in much reduced form.
“But bonfires weren’t invented by Unionists MT lol they have a long, long history in the World predating even the English or Irish language, the Irish Language being the older of the two by far.”
Nobody said they were invented by unionists.
“No, MT, most groups and organisations have bands. I know Unionists admire their own bands but they aren’t that glamorous that we would copy them.”
That’s untrue since “republican flute bands” are an imitation of their loyalist counterparts.
“Painted kerbstones? I have been alive for over 25 years and I have NEVER seen Green, White and Orange kerbstones, never. I have obviously seen Red, White and Blue kerbstones but I cant think of a better way of making an area look cheap and tacky than to paint kerbstones.”
You’re only a kid. That explains a lot.
“Murals?? Well I have no idea who used the first mural in the North but the most famous murals by far are Republican ones, specifically the Bobby Sands one on the Falls Road. Gerry Adams has been seen with a few famous faces giving them a personal tour of Republican murals, Hollywood Actor Vince Vaughn was one.”
That doesn’t mean the concept wasn’t copied from.loyalists.
“Overall, Republicanism wont be copying too much from Unionism MT, no sensible group would want to have the reputation and image the DUP/UUP have.”
Not sure what the DUP or UUP have to do with this, but there is a copycat strain within nationalist culture, albeit weakening.
Anyone of a sane outlook on life can see the environmental destruction, religious bigotry and intolerance on show every 11th of July night. By mimicking their loyalist counterparts, dissident republicans are showing that they have absolutely nothing to offer republican/nationalist community. Anti social idiots building a bonfire in the middle of the road “cause them uns in the fountain” can do it are pathetic. It was also disgraceful of Eamon McCann and Mark H Durkan not to come out and state clearly that this was a disgraceful pathetic act by young people in the area directed by their pied pipers of “independent” councillers. The vast majority of us don’t want to hear that “young people are frustrated, young people are rebelling against the system, that we need to listen to young people that are doing this”. My old man would’ve beat the pan of me burning rubbish in the middle of a road. It’s fine to be angry with the “system”, fine to oppose political parties but it needs to be said by all that it’s not fine to build and burn a bonfire ( not in the middle of the road, not anywhere ! )with flags from other communities etc. And cause “them unionists/loyalists do it as well ” is the argument of a four year old.
Well said
They are simply ********
jessica – I’m going to stop straightforward abuse, regardless of who it’s aimed at. You can do better than this…- Jude
I am sorry Jude, but I have had my fill with these people.
I will try to temper my language but these people need to be dealt with
That’s you told off Jessica.
nevertheless, no matter how much one may disapprove, the bonfire had one beneficial effect
For the first time ever? a DUP MLA condemned burning posters on bonfires. He realized it’s not nice when it’s done to him and maybe, just maybe, gained an insight into others feel when it’s done to them.
Foyle MLA Gary Middleton, DUP said he hopes people can move beyond the burning of flags and election material after his own poster was torched in the Bogside bonfire last night.
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/we-need-to-move-beyond-this-dup-mla-whose-poster-was-placed-on-bogside-bonfire-1-7528474?
“nevertheless, no matter how much one may disapprove, the bonfire had one beneficial effect”
Maybe more than one,
These people need to be physically removed from our community.
Perhaps it will help move us closer to actually taking the action needed against these idiots.
Where does “our community” start and end, jessica? Who is going to physically remove “These people”? Where should they be removed to? Who are the “us” that you want to move towards violence against ” these people”? Are these not your fellow citizens who want a political result? The people who get and deserve your respect. As I said before, your political outlook depends on what day of the week it is. Queen of Seba hah!
Well fiosrach, we should be very clear here as I believe you are trying to blur the lines between non Sinn Fein republicans who support peace and seek a political solution and dissident thugs who use violence to maintain control over our communities where they engage in criminality which needs to end.
I have every respect for all forms of republicans, but dissident thugs and their supporters are not republicans first of all, they are self serving imposters who have not got the first notion what a political result would look like.
They may be fellow citizens, but so are all criminals in our society so I fail to see the relevance and they will get no respect from me.
It is good that you are coming out and declaring your support for these thugs though.
As for who is going to remove them.
Glad you ask.
A lot of these people are in council housing or receive public money towards accommodation.
I would like to see a system where every community here could submit a petition to council for the removal of individuals who are causing undo criminality or threatening behaviour.
This should be legislated and the house taken off them and them forced to live elsewhere to at least a 20 mile radius.
This has proven effective already in other parts as splitting up families of criminals totally transforms estates so there is precedent in my own town where a family of drug dealers were split up.
Before that however, we held a protest march, where 200 men and women marched around our estate right up to the doors of a handful of these people.
They turned off the lights and hid on the floor, refusing to answer the door and speak to us and remained this way until we left.
I am in no doubt these dissident thugs would respond in the exact same way and would enable the next stage for their removal by the authorities which would I guarantee you by this time would have zero community support.
That community togetherness is where community starts and ends and these people need to respect that or get the hell out.
I’m not sure how your proposed system might work out Jessica. i can see how you might be able to identify and label miscreants for whatever reason …and you might even be able to electronically chip or tag them like you might do with an anima l(Would that be legal?)…but you’d probably end up with the same problem that communities have with paedophiles. When communities discover that they have one in their midst, they always want them moved on to somewhere else…..that happened locally a few weeks ago , for example.So short of building some kind of open-prison or redoubt , especially made for “wronguns” …which might be impractical too , you’d still have a problem.
It is not an ideal solutions Harry, but ask yourself, how can someone criticise Sinn Fein for their tolerance on bigotry and disrespect from unionism but at the same time tolerate children being left without a father because he was shot by some thug claiming to be freeing Ireland by lining their pockets with drug money, protection rackets and criminality?
It has to end.
Why do you keep introducing your unpleasant experiences with “dissident thugs” every time any alternative republican narrative is introduced? If you lecture and hector them the way you try to do on this blog, then it is no small wonder you have problems with them. Anyway, sometimes you hate the free staters,sometimes the British,sometimes Sinn Féin, sometimes degolved government, sometimes the southern Irish, sometimes non Sinn Féin republicans, sometimes the lefties, sometimes the unionists etc etc. And that is only on a Monday. I find your arrogance very debilitating with your ‘We should do this’ and ‘We should do that’ and your obvious ignorance of Irish history apart from your ‘experiences’ with people who chased you from a table so they coulr talk privately. This is my last comment on your existence on this blog and I can only be grateful to Jude for his tolerance – of me as well as you.
I have no problem with alternative republican narratives fiosrach, in fact I would welcome them as while most of us have the same objective at heart, there is no clear means of achieving it as conflict has totally divided our people all over this island in a myriad of varying opinions.
And I will make it clear once again, I have no problem with anyone considering themselves non Sinn Fein republicans. They are as entitled to criticise Sinn Fein as I am any of the various opinions on the Irish national issue.
And you can do this on any day of the week you choose. Opinions also change and people can do positive things as well as negative so it is foolish to expect someone to hold the same opinions on individuals regardless of what they do. In fact, that is a very unionist stance and at times you sound like you have more in common with unionism and the type of future it prefers than someone genuinely seeking Irish reunification.
And my ire was not at being asked to leave the table, but the arrogance, attitude and status that these individuals believe they deserve.
They are an insult to the name of republicanism.
So please do put forward alternative republican narratives but please no more regurgitating pro violence thuggery in the name of republicanism in 2016.
Jude can decide for himself his stance on tolerance of it. I have had my fill of it.
I don’t want my children ending up as screwed up as I am over a pointless conflict.
sounds like the martin cahill film the general,when the ordinary decent criminals marched on the houses,lol
that worked out well in dublin didnt it.
“ordinary decent criminals ”
Says it all billy
yea,your after saying you marched with the lynch mob to intimidate people from their homes,ime sure among the 200 yobs marching a fair few couldnt throw stones in glass houses.you know the type.
There’s a thing to tussle over.As we all agree that various differing points of view have their place I’d like to try and understand exactly how say unionists see the situation developing if and when they become a minority viewpoint and are unable to hold back the inevitability of uniting the entire country again. Is it like Brexit where no one had a plan for the unthinkable which eventually happened.The politicians in britain are now scurrying about to try and cobble together a process for exit the EU which will take years.What will unionists do when the penny drops that a majority might just vote them into a united Ireland ?
On the other hand there appear to be what are being called “dissident republicans” with an alternative plan for exiting the British rule and re-uniting with a conservative Irish republic ,in a whole new Ireland . They make a bit of noise but so far no political substance has been shown.What’s their game -plan? .There’s talk from them that Sinn Fein have got the wrong plan and they think that the old violent plan might somehow work. They appear to positively hate the sinn fein planWill somone tell me the story arc of that scenario and how that one will work too. It very obviously didn’t work the first time around and Sinn Fein grabbed the best deal for now that they could while attempting too to stop any more infiltration into the iRA and also to try and stop Loyalism killing Catholic people willy-billy. So what is their “new” vision and how would it actually work .? Thta needs to be answeredto .The other question is .how does the DuP expect to make its party bigger unless they can convince those of a nationalist persuasion that their idea of a future is a better one. They’re not exactly doing much to recruit new members from the growing nationalists are they?
Unionists don’t have a plan Harry, they have MI5 still here, still active and still working on their behalf. That was no accident
I believe that their preferred solution would be for republicans to restart the conflict.
This will first of all remove all pressure on them to acknowledge unionisms role in starting the conflict in the first place.
It will help reinforce their narrative that the conflict was an IRA terror campaign aimed at them and not an armed insurrection against their decades of misrule culminating in an attempted pogrom on our community.
It will also give those in British intelligence and in the GB political sphere the opportunity to get closure from having to admit they were unable to defeat the IRA.
Some of them still find that difficult to swallow and they would have no trouble crushing the current dissident infrastructure, it is so heavily infiltrated on both parts of the island for the south has been working very, very closely with them in this regard as well as receiving financial incentives for their compliance.
Sinn Fein winning a southern election would I imagine risk some dirty facts on Fine Gael in particular coming to light.
The efforts in the 2016 election failed to halt the growth of Sinn Fein though was a phenomenal effort, but it is unlikely that the same tactic can be used again.
Sinn Fein are now one of three parties who will be vying to win the next Irish election and the other parties will have to make some gestures towards those who have not abandoned their citizens in the north.
Unionists will continue to antagonise Sinn Fein through individuals such as Gregory Campbell.
If Sinn Fein react accordingly in return, MI5 will use its puppets in the PSNI to issue their black propaganda about the IRA pulling Sinn Fein’s strings.
This will be supported in the south by the Gardaí commissioner who will be instructed by Fine Gael to endorse the assessment.
If Sinn Fein hold their nerve, MI5 will start pulling the many strings of its key people within loyalist and dissident paramilitaries.
They will try to do enough to destabilise things politically during the election but without fully reigniting the conflict and they wont mind taking PSNI or innocent civilian casualties to achieve it.
But as you say was proved by brexit, there is no way to guarantee how these things will pan out.
“In one primitive act, they’ve brought nationalism and republicanism down to the level of the Eleventh Night morons, with their religious statues and Irish tricolour part of the conflagration”
One bonfire isn’t comparable to scores burnt on the 11th July Night. Hoods built the bonfire in Derry, not Republicans. On the 11th July you see a gathering of all shades of Unionism, from Political Unionism to Paramilitary Unionism, and its almost like some sort of Dark Age sectarian ritual they engage in. Republicans of all shades didn’t gather together for this bonfire in Derry, in fact 95% of all Republicans condemned the bonfire for its backwardness and destruction of the local environment. The last thing anyone wants is their area to look like Larne.
I use to support the Internment bonfires but I think its time they were ditched and replaced with more memorial parades and more festivals, like Feile an Phobail. They must be replaced with something else, they just cant be stopped immediately, that wont work and some people will regard that as a suppression of the right to remember internment. We should have more festivals that will be Entertaining, Cultural and will enhance the community for the better.
I would much rather those lads who built this bonfire in Derry put their energy into something that will actually achieve something for them and their community. They should spend their energies building up their education, their careers and their futures, not burning a pile of rubbish to the ground and making the area look a mess. What does that do for Republicanism? Nothing. What does it achieve? Nothing, except make your area look like a shit hole afterwards.
We’re Irish Republicans, we’re not Loyalist fleg protestors. Some people need to learn what that means and what it involves. Burning bonfires does nothing for Republicanism. But Education, reading Books and doing well for yourself and your community does a lot for Republicanism.