The UUP’s Danny Kennedy has made a declaration: sectarianism “is alive and well” in the middle classes here. Well hey – who’d ever have thunk it? But let’s look a little closer at what people believe is sectarianism.
Rabbi Julia Neuberger, then the Chancellor of Ulster University (at the time the University of Ulster, if you’re still with me), made a comment on the “sectarian” school system here. She quickly had her knuckles rapped as she was informed that there was a separate school system here, and not a sectarian one.
I think this is a crucial distinction. Think about it. It’s customary and natural that people who hold similar beliefs, customs, cultures should choose to be together rather than with those whose outlook is different. It’s not just the case here, both at working class level and at middle class – it’s the case with African-Americans in the US, with Chinese, with gay areas. People, especially if they feel insecure, naturally gravitate towards each other. So yes, Malone Road, when the new Catholic middle class moved in, saw a migration of considerable numbers of Protestants to North Down. This may have been because they detested and despised Catholics. I’d prefer to think it was because they felt more comfortable living – as the great majority of us do – in an area where the neighbours had similar loyalties to their own.
You could define sectarianism as belonging to or characteristic of a sect, usually religious, which follows a particular set of doctrines. As we use it here, however, it means having a prejudiced view of others different from ourselves, having contempt and even hatred for them, and acting, when the opportunity arises, to show that contempt and hurt The Other in any way you can.
The other point to keep in mind is that when we talk about Catholic/Protestant, what most of us mean is nationalist-republican/unionist. In other words, it’s our common set of political loyalties that make different groups cluster together. The republican-nationalist and unionist middle classes do, of course, interact, not just in a business context but also in a social context. When they do, politics is either totally avoided as a topic of conversation (whatever you say, say nothing) or it’s the subject of gentle joshing and laughs.
There is a strain of sectarianism alive and well in the middle classes – Danny K is right there. There has been for umpteen years. Nearly a hundred years ago when my father bought the farm on which I was raised, he did so by having a Protestant friend buy it for him. That practice is still necessary in some areas – there is a strong code that land should not pass into the hands of them’uns, but be kept in the hands of our lot. Both Protestant/unionists and Catholic/nationalist do this but I have a feeling it’s perhaps more frequent in the case of Protestant/unionist. Again, it might be sectarianism, or it might be insecurity rather than contempt or hatred that allows it to happen.
As I say, sectarianism does exist at every level. If people urinate against church walls, if they strut in triumphalist bands, if they sing and/or yell abuse at the other side – that’s obviously sectarian. But I’d repeat: a desire to be separate, with people like yourself, is natural – and it’s not (necessarily) sectarian.
Actually, if you want to see prejudice truly at work, look at the class system here. Consider this: a young woman in a Protestant family announces that she plans to marry a Catholic barrister. A few minutes later she tells her family that was all a laugh, she does plan to get married, and it’s going to be to a Protestant. He’s a rat-catcher by trade. Which of the two scenarios do you think would cause most consternation in the Protestant family?
And the same thing would apply in a Catholic family, although perhaps with less intensity.
We can and do hate each other, but let’s be accurate in our thinking about what are and are not signs of sectarianism.
Jude,
I agree, though the rat catchers (remuneration aside)have arguably a fonder place in the hearts of the public than the legal profession.
But we have the same issue with race – in the debate about immigration – is preference for your own people – racist? Very tricky to navigate…
I think preference in terms of where you live/where you send your children (actually that’s an even more complicated one) is fine, or that you prefer one group’s company to another’s. I’d say black people in the US, for example, prefer their own company to that of whites – they appear to , at least. I see nothing wrong with that. It’s only if someone shoves a sign up and says ‘No whites allowed’ that it becomes a problem. Even subtle freezing out of the other lot (the middle classes are v good at that) is sectarian. But I’d still maintain that I’m entitled to choose my friends/my locality/my school, and none of those make me sectarian. (Although of course I am, as gio has proved…)
It would depend on what you meant by “your own people”, Sammy.Where would that division -line be drawn…how far beyond your own family circle or your own group of friends would you stretch ?Where would the boundary be and who would you want to include?
paddykool,
precisely – navigation between aspects of nationalism and racism can be tricky – one can be concealed at times in the other.
As a humanist I instinctively empathise with integrated education. So I was not displeased to see a lavishly coloured free supplement by NICIE (Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education wrabpped up in my Irish News on Wednesday. It extolled the benefits and celebrated the acheivements and lauded the potential of Integrated education. Very laudable. Oh, except! The publication was entirely as Bearla, in English. Not a word of Albanian, Cantonesse, Latvian, Lithuaniani,Mandarin, Polish, Portugese, Romanian, Swahili or any of the other “new Irish” rich linguistic heritage. An certainly not a word of Gaeilge, Irish or even do-it-yourself Ulster-Scotch. All in all British as Finchley or American as a WASP. Diversity mo thoin, my arse.
Where is the empirical evidence that middle class areas are divided?
I live in Ballyhackamore in East Belfast and there’s a chapel less than 100 yards from the Presbyterian church. I’ve attended both and they are full on a Sunday.
When Jude says;
“I have a feeling it’s perhaps more frequent in the case of Protestant/unionist”
and again;
“And the same thing would apply in a Catholic family, although perhaps with less intensity.”
without any evidence to support those hunches that to me suggests the very sectarianism he is highlighting.
That is not to say he is especially sectarian in his assumptions but just that it is how we tend to think here.
We just ‘have a feeling’ that our lot are not quite as bad as themuns.
It reads: “oh there is sectarianism on both sides…(but them’uns are worse than us)”. And this from a grown man.
given they are 2 distinct groups – sectarianism is unlikely to be the same on both sides.
Sammy
I accept that it may not be equally prevalent.
My point was that as Jude was not presenting any evidence involving recent data he was basing his conclusion on his feelings and personal experience.
If we draw conclusions about a whole section of the community based on our personal experiences as opposed to research and evidence, then it is more likely to be reflecting our own prejudices..
As Joe bloggs says we all tend to feel that themuns are a bit worse than us.
“That is not to say he is especially sectarian ” – well thanks heaps, gio. The air must be thin up there on the moral high ground. What is sectarian about suggesting that unionism is more sectarian than nationalism? I base my tentative supposition on the way unionists ruled our little NE Nirvana for fifty years. Is that allowed?
Jude
We are honoured by your presence below the line.
The air is fine up here. And the view so much clearer!
It is the assumption without evidence to back it that suggested to me it was coming from your own subjective view rather than an objective appraisal.
You are making assumptions based on how unionists ruled over 50 years ago.
Firstly that is a long time ago to be used as a basis for attitudes now.
Secondly it does not tell us anything about the prevalence of similar attitudes in the Catholic/Nationalist community.
I am not actually saying you are wrong I am just questioning the basis for your assumptions.
Also I was careful to say ‘we’ all tend to think in such a way, so that you would not take particular offence.
There have been numerous studies carried out in NI on levels of sectarianism. I read a book once on this area but I can’t recall the title or the author at the moment and it certainly concluded that there was certainly a greater propensity to be sectarian among the British/Unionist/Protestant populations here (What wee Willie would probably refer to as PUL).
If I remember correctly it based its findings on things like the numbers of Catholics or Protestants living in areas which were predominantly populated by the other community, the numbers of people who would send youngsters to a school of the other community. The types of passports people tended to carry or airlines and airports those people used. Types of sports people watched which would be perceived to represent the other community. The attitude of family members to a mixed marriage etc.
This book was written maybe 20 years ago so maybe things have changed but things tend to change very slowly here.
I suspect if someone produced a study here on the subject you would very quickly become unpopular and would expect little airtime on the BBC and other mainstream media who like to paint a picture that sectarianism in NI is restricted to Ardoyne.
I despise sectarianism but I have to acknowledge it exists and I know that there are good people on all sides opposing it.
I have never read anything to scientifically explain why it would be a greater problem in the Protestant/Unionist community but suspect it comes down to feelings of insecurity.
Gio – I can understand you’re overawed by my presence – at ease, please…You say my tentative suggestion had no evidence. I offered 50 years of sectarianism and your response is ‘Oh, that was a long time ago.’ Some of us lived through it and suffered from it. (You’ll notice that I also made the point that my father had a Protestant friend who did the buying for him. And he numbered at least as many Protestants among the people he dealt with – as a cattle-dealer – as he did Catholics). You ignore the bit “As I say, sectarianism does exist at every level. If people urinate against church walls, if they strut in triumphalist bands, if they sing and/or yell abuse at the other side – that’s obviously sectarian’. I accept that nationalists/republicans have been guilty of the last of these – yelling abuse – but again I’d suggest not as frequently or regularly as unionists/loyalists. And they certainly aren’t guilty of the first two, while unionists do it thousands of times every year (strugging triumphantly, not ceaselessly urinating, of course. There is only so much work a bladder can do…)
Jude
My impression was you were talking about communities in the present day, in which case I do think attitudes of 50 years ago would not be very strong evidence.
I think the antics of the bands and others attached to parades are disgraceful and inexcusable, just to be clear.
But those incidents to not prove that sectarianism is more prevalent in general within the protestant community than the catholic.
Again I am not saying you are wrong but if your evidence is only based on your own feelings then that suggests a subjective view and that in turn is coloured by the sectarian traces that are ingrained in all of us (well not me obviously).
I believe a good way of judging the sectarianism of communities in the present day would be their actions and especially the actions of those they elect in bog numbers. The sectarian comments from elected unionists at the highest levels coming out with sectarian diatribe such as having to hold their noses for the stench from working alongside their partners in government, the mistrust of rogues and renegades within nationalism on the purse strings (by the same person who wasted the most public money from poor management) to poor tasting sectarian jokes such as curry my yoghurt.
I think there is plenty of evidence to base the levels of sectarianism between communities in the present day.
There is also policing information on the breakdown of race hate crimes which are also significantly different among the two communities I believe.
Would those statistics prove race hate to be more prevalent in general within the protestant community than the catholic do you think gio?
For someone who uses false statements to justify unionist sectarianism in refusing to talk about any future they dislike, it is a bit rich for you to criticise or question anyone’s motives gio.
jessica
You say
“I think there is plenty of evidence to base the levels of sectarianism between communities in the present day.”
That may be so. Let’s see it.
If I made a false statement could you copy it here so I can see it thanks?
jessica
No reply?
“My impression was you were talking about communities in the present day, in which case I do think attitudes of 50 years ago would not be very strong evidence”
Ahh, that old chestnut Gio, forget the past because it doesn’t do my argument any favours! The reality is Unionism is still stuck in the past, celebrating a Battle that occurred in the year 1690 (How many years ago was that??….) on a yearly basis as if it occurred in the last decade. If you have any evidence of Unionism moving forward, a change of attitudes, etc then I’m sure we’re all ears because I assure you I have tons of evidence to say they haven’t.
The reality is History makes the present, you cant deny the facts Jude has spoke of just because you haven’t a leg to stand on when it comes to countering it.
Ryan
Jude did not offer any facts apart from anecdotes.That is my whole point.
If you base your view of people on what their parents or grandparents did over 50 years ago then I do not find that a very strong argument.
Jude based his argument on his feelings,he said so himself.
It is clear you don’t understand the point I am making,
Try reading what is written.
The lofty notion of integrated education is to be admired. Not because it brings peace but it is how a secure,confident and stable society chooses to educate the next generation. The problem here is the hope that native restlessness will be subsumed into a bland British type education and all our troubles will be over. Not so much integration as British state control. It slots in neatly with the BBC, the English newspapers,the ‘football’ culture, the support for our boys overseas and the poppy. Before we know it we are as British as Finchley. To bring about real,true equality in education would mean the dismantling of this colonial anachronism.
I have to agree with you there fiosrach. How many schools in the integrated sector foster an appreciation of Irish culture be it sports, literature, music and language. No it is mainly British culture, hisory and Duke of Edinburgh awards Sure did not the parents in one such school in Omagh go ballistic when they realised that the sports kit was made by O’Neill’s.
It is the old Alliance party solution of if everyone can just accept their place as good little British girls and boys sure we’ll get along just fine.
You just have to look at modern Britain where the races are happily segregating themselves.
There are schools in the south and midlands of England where you will not see a white child and others in the north and east where there are few children of Asian or African ethnicity. Add to that the class divide and it is plain to see that we are not the only ones with problems.
And it’s not only the integrated schools that are falling over themselves to avail of the likes of the Duke of Edinburgh awards,Dan. There are some sly principals in “catholic ethos ” schools who try at every opportunity to slip in the even slyer RUC/PSNI under the guise of community policing. They have no place in our community .
“I have to agree with you there fiosrach. How many schools in the integrated sector foster an appreciation of Irish culture be it sports, literature, music and language. No it is mainly British culture, hisory and Duke of Edinburgh awards Sure did not the parents in one such school in Omagh go ballistic when they realised that the sports kit was made by O’Neill’s.”
I agree with Fr Denis Faul, who passed away in 2006, who said integrated education was the British Governments “Trojan Horse”. He said that in the 1980’s, I believe. Why would any Irish Republican with more than 2 brain cells support putting the children of our community under the influence and teachings of the British State? That’s not counting that Catholic schools are the best performers in terms of education by a country mile.
I like some of the people in the Alliance party but I sure don’t trust the party itself. There was more to their attempt to close St Mary’s University on the Falls Road last year. I mean, what kind of minister wants to shut a University that ranks 2nd in the whole UK, ahead of Oxford or Cambridge (one or the other) for teacher training quality?….
“Why would any Irish Republican with more than 2 brain cells support putting the children of our community under the influence and teachings of the British State? ”
Because the choice is either state or private.
And thankyou for pointing out that the main reason for sending kids to CMS schools is political and not religious, most people don’t want to admit that.
“There was more to their attempt to close St Mary’s University on the Falls Road last year. I mean, what kind of minister wants to shut a University that ranks 2nd in the whole UK, ahead of Oxford or Cambridge (one or the other) for teacher training quality?….”
No Ryan, there was an attempt to MERGE it with Stranmillis, two very different things.
The very same practice was applied successfully in Glasgow with the two teacher training colleges there.
Furthermore the savings from said merger (and consequent property sell-off) was to be used to expand Magee College in Derry.
It would also reduce the number of surplus teacher-graduates in the province and avoid having to waste millions by forcing experienced teachers into early retirement.
It’s common sense Ryan, not social engineering by stealth.
“How many schools in the integrated sector foster an appreciation of Irish culture be it sports, literature, music and language. ”
An ever increasing number do, this question gets asked a lot on Slugger O’Toole and everytime someone who has kids in an integrated school says “our school does” the inquisitor becomes noticeably quiet.
“How many schools in the integrated sector foster an appreciation of Irish culture be it sports, literature, music and language.”
All of them?
“Sure did not the parents in one such school in Omagh go ballistic when they realised that the sports kit was made by O’Neill’s.”
Could you paint this in a context with the other parents that DIDN’T go ballistic when their integrated schools introduced Gaelic sports and Irish language?
Could you also address why a Catholic Primary in Mid-Ulster which wanted to be an integrated status school was denied this by the then SF Education minister?
Paranoid drivel Fiosrach.
That intellectual remark certainly put me in my box.
You got a response worthy of your paranoid outburst, but if you wish further scrutiny then I’ll happily oblige:
“The lofty notion of integrated education is to be admired. Not because it brings peace but it is how a secure,confident and stable society chooses to educate the next generation.”
Yes
“The problem here is the hope that native restlessness will be subsumed into a bland British type education and all our troubles will be over.”
Proof please?
” Not so much integration as British state control. It slots in neatly with the BBC, the English newspapers,the ‘football’ culture, the support for our boys overseas and the poppy.”
Proof please?
” Before we know it we are as British as Finchley. To bring about real,true equality in education would mean the dismantling of this colonial anachronism.”
Proof please?
You could also mention the Integrated schools that offer Irish and Gaelic games before you go down the path of Willy-Frazerdom.
This is my opinion backed up by years living in this statelet and carries more weight with me than your opinions.
“This is my opinion backed up by years living in this statelet and carries more weight with me than your opinions.”
That’s a complete kop-out, I asked you to at least try to back up your ludicrous assertions and you haven’t.
Ask me only one question at a time. I get confused wrestling with you intellectual high flyers.
“Ask me only one question at a time”
OK.
Could you please consolidate your earlier statement ” Not so much integration as British state control. It slots in neatly with the BBC, the English newspapers,the ‘football’ culture, the support for our boys overseas and the poppy.” with this article?
http://www.lagancollege.com/2014/10/integrated-gaa-pioneers/
liberal democrat,
baroness neuberger of primrose hill over telling the natives how to live.sounds familiar.
I was shocked at the number of my professional middle class Protestant colleagues that supported the flag protests. That was a real eye opener for me, on how people that I regarded as educated and approachable could fall into a rage over a flag. Sectarianism is very much a part of our society at every social level.
“I was shocked at the number of my professional middle class Protestant colleagues that supported the flag protests.”
Sounds like you got a look at the true face of unionism Cal.
I worked in a factory in portadown for 11 years and it was like jekyll and hyde every summer. One of the top managers was on TV at garvaghy road climbing over the top of people to hit a policemen with his brolly.
They actually had a rally within the factory grounds under the flag about the march that only the protestant workers were invited to.
They actually thought it was being polite to say we didn’t have to attend.
That mentality needs to be crushed and not reconciled with
“I worked in a factory in portadown for 11 years and it was like jekyll and hyde every summer”
My mother always said the same Jessica. She worked with many Unionists for decades and her exact words were: “for 3 quarters of the year they were brilliant to work with, no problems but see when the 12th is coming up, they change, their blood boils”.
” One of the top managers was on TV at garvaghy road climbing over the top of people to hit a policemen with his brolly”
Drumcree was nothing short of a disgrace, those residents deserve an apology. Susan McKay bases a large chunk of her book/articles on Drumcree. The things spoke of at Drumcree is nothing less than Nazi like. The Unionist women, and I have heard many others say this, are the worst. At Drumcree they were demanding the Unionist men to create a “Civil War” to “finish this once and for all”. Basically they were calling for mass sectarian murders of Catholic people. Even Susan McKay, a Derry Protestant woman herself, said she had to leave and get fresh air because of all the “hate”.
Willie Frazers mother, Margaret, when interviewed was described as “the most bitter person I have ever met” by McKay. Margaret even makes a jeering reference to a Catholic woman having a miscarriage. Margaret’s father was, unsurprisingly, in the B Specials and helped the Black and Tans. She mentions that her Father and the B Specials use to set traps for Catholics by the checkpoints. She said they told Protestants not to run but jumped out at Catholics so when they ran they could shoot them or arrest them and then use that as an excuse to say those Catholics were hiding something. Her father use to always say to his children: “The only good Catholic is a dead Catholic”. That’s the environment Willie and many others grew up in….
Now obviously I’m not saying all Unionist women are like that, a lot are obviously decent people but you see at Unionist parades, rallies, etc the women are always the loudest chanting sectarian names, making rude gestures, etc especially at contentious parades. I believe they are called “Orange Lil’s”…..
Nowhere is the class system , Esteeemd Blogmeister, more pronounced (pronounced funny like a bouncing rugby ball ) down here in the Free Southern Stateen than in the class room.
‘Give me the boy and I’ll give you the man’, is the international sales pitch of the Jesuits. Translated into the Patois of Pat it comes out as ‘Give me the wean and I’ll give you the Shoneen’.
The SJ’s were the original feckin’ ecumenists: God in the Jesuit schools is a Prod.
SHOW ME THE WAY TO SHONEENIA
The Euro comes in second to sterling
The Union J. they dream of unfurling
The Apostolate of the Rich ?
The SJ’s cornered that niche
Play jolly hockey,’Protestant hurling’.
“. So yes, Malone Road, when the new Catholic middle class moved in, saw a migration of considerable numbers of Protestants to North Down. This may have been because they detested and despised Catholics. I’d prefer to think it was because they felt more comfortable living ”
If, say, White people moved out of an area because black people moved in or vice versa, most (if not all) would regard that as Racism. Why wouldn’t it be sectarianism if Protestants choose to move out because Catholics moved into an area? I honestly forget what survey it was but I seem to remember a survey where Protestants and Catholics were asked if they would be happy to live amongst people from the other community. The results showed a big majority of Protestants favoured living only with Protestants, whilst it showed a majority of Catholics didn’t mind living in mixed areas with Protestants.
If we are to go on the results of this survey alone, then its clear the issue is with the Protestant community. Indeed many Unionists speak of “ethnic cleansing” because areas that once had large protestant populations now have been replaced with a Catholic majority, Belfast for example. But its clear its obviously not “ethnic cleansing”, its simply Protestants choosing to move out.
“and acting, when the opportunity arises, to show that contempt and hurt The Other in any way you can”
DUP today keeping Irish Language out of the Education Department (even saying in their manifesto to oppose it at every turn) and the UUP Danny Kinahan taking photos with a bonfire about to burn a Tricolour springs to mind.
“The other point to keep in mind is that when we talk about Catholic/Protestant, what most of us mean is nationalist-republican/unionist”
I use to believe it was all political, truth is its not, religion plays a part. This religious element/sectarianism is almost exclusively the product of Unionism, the Orange Order alone is proof of that.
“Nearly a hundred years ago when my father bought the farm on which I was raised, he did so by having a Protestant friend buy it for him”
Willie Frazer made a video earlier this year swearing to oppose and expose any Protestants who do this for Catholics. The Orange Order, as I mentioned previously, have a fund specifically set up to buy land to keep it from falling into Catholic hands, the “Ulster Land Fund”. You can be sure most of the people who donate to it are Unionist Middle Class, possibly including Unionist political parties. I believe SpotlightNI did a programme on this topic last year.
Now I know Gio and MT are going to get very excited here because I’m going to mention their favourite Author but Susan McKay (calm down Gio/MT, we know you love her) interviewed Protestant farmers in her book, “Northern Protestants”. One of these was a family who wanted to move away from the border desperately but refused all offers, even offers over their asking price, because the buyers were all Catholic. They said they would sell only if the buyers are Protestant. When Susan asks the family do they believe Catholics should sell land to Protestants, in true Unionist hypocritical fashion, the family looks shocked and replies “of course”. When Susan points out their hypocrisy the family merely shrugs….
“Again, it might be sectarianism, or it might be insecurity rather than contempt or hatred that allows it to happen”
Its definitely sectarianism, of course it is. If I put my land up for sale and refuse to sell it to a Protestant or a Black man simply because they are Protestant or Black then that’s Sectarianism/Racism. In the case I mentioned before in Susan McKays book (keep those squeaks of excitement down back there!) that family was desperate to leave but yet wouldn’t because the buyers were all Catholic. You have to think about the mentality of a family who would behave like that…..its not simply a feeling of insecurity, its obviously a lot stronger than that, a feeling of resentment of their land being bought by a Catholic. It doesn’t need said but it just goes to show how they view Catholics as a people…..
” Consider this: a young woman in a Protestant family announces that she plans to marry a Catholic barrister”
I think in the survey I mentioned previously another question was asked where Protestants and Catholics were asked how they would feel if their family members married someone from the other community. The results were similar as before, a majority of Protestants wouldn’t like a family member marrying a Catholic, while a majority of Catholics “Didn’t Care”. Susan McKay (Christmas has come early today for MT/Gio/Robert) interviews a woman in her book who works with Catholics and regards herself as a “moderate”. Susan is surprised when she asks the woman would she mind if one of her children (she has daughters) dated and married a Catholic, her reply was a very quick and stern: Yes. She informs Susan that she wouldn’t like it at all.
In my opinion, sectarianism is a lot worse in the Middle Classes, though its portrayed as if all the sectarianism is in the Working Classes because that’s where it is usually on show. To be honest, big strides have been done in Working Class areas in tackling sectarianism thanks to excellent cross community work by both sides. But, as the 40,000 leaflets printed by the DUP/UUP at Belfast City Hall alone proves, the Middle Class Unionists in those parties are always willing to stoke up sectarian tension and ruin community relations for their own selfish interests……
Ryan
FYI, I lived in a muslim district for a few years. I get most of my Anglo-indian muslim knowledge from that time and the interactions therein.
You’d be much better served by referring to your own encyclopaedic list of interactions with Protestants rather than quoting a book which clearly highlights extreme cases.
What kind of standard are you setting for debate? Should I judge all muslims by the writings of Salman Rushdi and judge all republicans by the writings of Sean O’Callaghan and Eamon Collins?
Or should I be a bit more hands on with my experiences and assertions and instead think to my Catholic and nationalist friends and the numerous pleasant experiences from Derry and (to a lesser extent) West Belfast?
I can’t agree with your ‘sticking with your own’ in a Northern Irish context Dr C.
You compared this aspect to Blacks and Chinese wanting to live in their own communities but the thing is they are different races. Northern Irish/Irish people aren’t.
Should you not be asking WHY do people of similar ethnic stock not want to be together? Why is a McDonnell different from a Donaldson or a Fullteron different from a McCloy?
Once upon a time it was indeed religion, but now religion is greatly reduced in terms of significance (from an anecdotal point of view most of my ‘Protestant’ friends are either atheist or agnostic and most of my Catholic friends have reduced their attendance to the level of ‘hatch, match and dispatch).
Yet still we have division.
Why?
Well, we (or rather Stormont mk I) have sculpted a perfect sectarian making machine.
Everyone here knows that if we send an ‘Irish’ kid (I omit the children of recent immigrants)into the Catholic school system they will come out the other side a nationalist.
The state system being a mirror image of unionism and British nationalism.
The thing is that both British and Irish nationalists LIKE this.
I abhor the idea of creating an overly expensive system just to satisfy apartheidists.
Which is what we have and which is what most of you are.
The system is wasteful and too expensive, if you support it then you can never, ever, ever use the argument ‘duplication of services’ as a reason for a united Ireland as your support of a 2/3/4 tier system simply renders this argument to laughably low levels of sincerity.
So if you truly believe in a UI and the reduction of waste and improvement of efficiency then great, well done.
Now apply the exact same level of scrutiny to our education system and justify Magherafelt’s set-up?
Magherafelt has so many schools that have been re-furbished, rebuilt, expanded or newly founded over the past 20 years that there’s been little money in the kitty for the schools in Cookstown.
As such, until recently hundreds (nearly 1000) pupils per day were bussed in to Magherafelt.
This affected the public transport budget (as Translink did said bussing) and caused merry hell with the traffic tot he extent that a new (and ineffective by-pass) had to be built which meant other projects were ky-boshed.
If we could accept the failings of our system and apply a more Swiss way of looking at things we would merge St Pius, Magherafelt High School and the integrated school.
Sell the grounds of the integrated school (prime development land) and use the money to expand Trintiy and hopefully the Irish medium at either Maghera or Dungiven.
This would lead to an efficient use of the excellent facilities already in existence at MHS and St Pius.
There would no longer need to be separate buses for different schools (think “Blankes, nie-Blankes”).
This would save money for other Translink resources (badly needed, e.g. trains in the commuter belt)
Anyone who wants a Catholic Education can still get one at St Mary’s, St Pat’s, St Colm’s or the now newly expanded Holy Trinity.
We would only need one principal and a handful of VP’s whereas now we have 3 principals and a cohort of VP’s and various HoD’s.
The merged school should by right of common sense offer Irish as a subject and Gaelic games, if you don’t want it then don’t play it.
Millions saved, no need for a by-pass and the sequestering of farmland and family homes, public transport resources freed for alternative use elsewhere and the right to Catholic education still ensured.
So, anyone here who uses the ‘duplication of services’ argument as an argument for a UI (which it is) but still feels that we need educational apartheid then please step up and explain the lack of contradiction in the two stances (logically, not emotionally).
Furthermore, Dr Farry wanted to merge the teacher training colleges and use the money to expand Magee College in Derry, to me it seemed like the epitome of common sense.
There was much rotten with the old Stormont regime, part of the modern problem is that we only got rid of the rotten bits that we didn’t like, we still haven’t got rid of the rotten bits that we DO like.
Am Ghobsmacht, integrated education is most definitely a good idea however the elephant in the room is ignored. In case you havnt noticed there is a great deal of hostility in this state towards anything that unionist view as Irish eg GAA,Irish language. Words such as ‘you are free to do whatever you want’,’nobody stops you doing this or that’ etc etc. Even within the present education set up there is the unwritten rule that you must not veer from the curriculum dictated by the state concerning history for example. When Irish people object to this they are inevitably met with excuses such as ‘I know but best let sleeping dogs lie’,’don’t want Willie Fraser types slamming the school’ and of course ‘we are in the UK and thus a UK education system is the norm, and sure didn’t yous agree to that’.
Unfortunately whether Irish people are ‘free to do whatever they want’ Irish people quickly learn that the everyday workings of the state are stacked against you if you took it upon yourself to speak,wear,express and even encourage a view that is counter to the standard British ways that they ‘hold dear’. Assimilate to British ways and you will be fine. And if you want proof of this assimilation take a look around you today and witness folk taking part and lending credence to the farce that is ‘remembrance day’. And if this assimilation has got nothing to do with education then I don’t now how else you can explain it?
“Even within the present education set up there is the unwritten rule that you must not veer from the curriculum dictated by the state concerning history for example. When Irish people object to this they are inevitably met with excuses such as ‘I know but best let sleeping dogs lie’,’don’t want Willie Fraser types slamming the school’ and of course ‘we are in the UK and thus a UK education system is the norm, and sure didn’t yous agree to that’.”
This is interesting. You’re saying that “Irish people” want schools to teach history outside the curriculum? What Irish people and what exactly do they want schools to teach that isn’t on the curriculum and why?
“Unfortunately whether Irish people are ‘free to do whatever they want’ Irish people quickly learn that the everyday workings of the state are stacked against you if you took it upon yourself to speak,wear,express and even encourage a view that is counter to the standard British ways that they ‘hold dear’.”
Can you give some examples of speech, clothing or expression thst is “counter to the standard British ways”, and what would happen to.somebody so speaking, wearing or expressing?
“Assimilate to British ways and you will be fine. And if you want proof of this assimilation take a look around you today and witness folk taking part and lending credence to the farce that is ‘remembrance day’. And if this assimilation has got nothing to do with education then I don’t now how else you can explain i:
Are you attempting to articulate the false-consciousness theory?
“Everyone here knows that if we send an ‘Irish’ kid (I omit the children of recent immigrants)into the Catholic school system they will come out the other side a nationalist”
You know that is not true.
“Am Ghobsmacht, integrated education is most definitely a good idea however the elephant in the room is ignored. In case you havnt noticed there is a great deal of hostility in this state towards anything that unionist view as Irish eg GAA,Irish language. Words such as ‘you are free to do whatever you want’,’nobody stops you doing this or that’ etc etc. Even within the present education set up there is the unwritten rule that you must not veer from the curriculum dictated by the state concerning history for example. When Irish people object to this they are inevitably met with excuses such as ‘I know but best let sleeping dogs lie’,’don’t want Willie Fraser types slamming the school’ and of course ‘we are in the UK and thus a UK education system is the norm, and sure didn’t yous agree to that’.”
The elephant in the room is not being ignored, here are some facts:
1/ Some integrated schools already offer Gaelic games and Irish
2/ There was a successful hurling outreach on the Shankill road
What’s to fear then?
Also, while you are correct about ‘the norm’ Iknow from experience of how many Protestants would like to have had a crack at Gaelic games, it won’t take long to see this.
“And if you want proof of this assimilation take a look around you today and witness folk taking part and lending credence to the farce that is ‘remembrance day’.”
Remembrance day is observed in many countries around the world that supplied large numbers of fodder to the British army. It’s more to do with the passage of time than ‘education’.
““Everyone here knows that if we send an ‘Irish’ kid (I omit the children of recent immigrants)into the Catholic school system they will come out the other side a nationalist”
You know that is not true.
”
Nearly every Irish nationalist I have ever met went to a Catholic school, likewise most (but not all) loyalists I’ve know went to non-integrated state schools.
Yes, it is a generalisation but as a rule of thumb it’s a reasonable one.
Anyway, regardless of wether you like integrated education or not (and it DOESN’T have to be a bland British model) it is becoming more and more difficult to justify the expense of maintaining 3/4 different systems as the Magherafelt farce has demonstrated.
I’d like to re-iterate MT’s question from above:
“Can you give some examples of speech, clothing or expression thst is “counter to the standard British ways”, and what would happen to.somebody so speaking, wearing or expressing?”
What are these ‘British ways’ other than perhaps wearing the poppy (which a lot of people don’t do)?
Are there any non-superficial examples?