Anybody remember the outcry when Catholic priests who were known sex-offenders were moved on to other parishes? The chorus of voices calling for the resignation of Cardinal Sean Brady was deafening. He was the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland and, we were told, the buck should stop with him.
Yesterday, the family of John Hemsworth, who have always claimed that his death in 1997 was the result of an attack by RUC officers, received the backing of a Police Ombudsman investigation. “The report expresses concern that none of the 16 officers on duty in the area where the assault took place was able to recall any details of the incident.” So we can add obvious cover-up to the crime of the killing of Hemsworth, it seems.
But these are changed times, right? Um, let me consider the latest news on the Pat Finucane case. The Court of Appeal has said that David Cameron was entitled to refuse a public inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane. That’s because “a shifting public interest kaleidoscope” of costs allowed him to go back on pledges made by the previous Labour government.
Now. What’s worse than being sexually abused? At least one thing: being killed. And when the crime of cover-up is added to the crime of killing, you get a situation where reasonable people become so frustrated and angry they become unreasonable.
Do you think some senior person from the RUC will be held responsible for the death of John Hemsworth? Do you think some senior figure in the British government of the day will be held responsible for the death of Pat Finucane? And finally and most damningly of all: will we hear an outcry from commentators and columnists, that the Finucane case has been left to fester too long, that an incident where a man is beaten to death by policemen and then his colleagues – sixteen of them – don’t remember a thing – is simply outrageous and no society should settle for anything other than those responsible, however highly-placed they may be, being brought to justice?
While you’re thinking that over, did you notice Santa’s sleigh landing on top of Belfast City Hall last night? He said he couldn’t remember what date Christmas falls on.
Very sad story jude.
Yo have to laugh at the revisionist re-imaging of Pat Finucane as a “human rights” lawyer. He was the IRA’s lawyer and many believe him to have been a member of the IRA army council.
A bad egg.
So because you don’t like some of the people he legally represented (and were entitled to legal representation) it’s ok that he was executed?
What a thoroughly disgusting suggestion!
at no time did I suggest that anyone should be executed. I remember reading an apologist blog on this site regarding the Shankhill bombing. The gist was: the IRA were trying to get the UDA meeting upstairs. If that was an understandable motivation, wouldn’t loyalists be similarly motivated to take out a senior IRA leader (IF that is what he was?).
I don’t condone it, but I understand the motivation. It is similar to the recent blog on this site seeking to understand the motivation for “disappearing” informers.
The difference is, I am quite happy to condemn the killing of Pat Finucane and hope that his killers are brought to justice: the author of the blog on the Shankhilll bombing and the disappeared refuses to condemn the perpetrators or say whether he thinks they should be brought to justice.
Double think can be tricky, can’t it folks?
“The gist was: the IRA were trying to get the UDA meeting upstairs”
But that’s what the IRA was trying to do Joe….even the RUC said it…..if the IRA simply wanted to murder innocent Protestants then they could easily have done what the UVF/UDA were doing with Catholics…. the likes of Sean Kelly who survived the bomb even apologized for the deaths and made clear they weren’t the target, the UDA were. The same UDA who deliberately planned to murder Catholic civilians. The fact the bomb itself went off prematurely, killing one of the IRA men, proves it was an accident. If you watch footage of the aftermath of the bomb you even see a UDA plaque on the wall upstairs above the shop. Its a simple fact: the target was the UDA, a group who were murdering Catholic civilians for being Catholic.
” I am quite happy to condemn the killing of Pat Finucane and hope that his killers are brought to justice”
How can the British Government bring itself to Justice?….
As I recall, it was not UDA, rather CLMC.
As I recall, it was not UDA, rather CLMC. AKA, drug dealing gimps.
You maybe don’t know that the late Desmond Boal, never accused of being anything but unionist, defended alleged IRA men in his day.
Why did no one accuse him of being an IRA lawyer?
but was he a leader of the IRA as it is alleged Pat Finucane was. (and a few of his brothers were)?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3590237/Finucane-should-not-have-been-killed-but-he-was-in-the-IRA.html
I would be very reluctant to go into court with the Telegraph as my only back-up!
Billy’s Weekly Liar would have more credibility.
“Not if in doing so they are denying those of us who want to have all the facts, who want to be able to make an informed decision, who believe putting parties before people is denying the best opportunities for our people. Absolutely not.”
Because he was a unionist, he didn’t have brothers in the IRA, and he didn’t specialise in defending and acting for the IRA?
“Yo have to laugh at the revisionist re-imaging of Pat Finucane as a “human rights” lawyer”
He was a Human Rights Lawyer Joe…..that’s what his job was….
“He was the IRA’s lawyer and many believe him to have been a member of the IRA army council”
Justifying murder Joe? Then you went on a bit of a rant about the Shankill Bomb…..
“A bad egg”
Your obviously a bitter wee egg Joe.
Your personal abuse aside – I wasn’t justifying anything. I suggested his IRA membership was the motivation for his killing. Do you believe he was in the IRA? I do, based on the testimony of IRA men.
“Your personal abuse aside – I wasn’t justifying anything. I suggested his IRA membership was the motivation for his killing. Do you believe he was in the IRA? I do, based on the testimony of IRA men”
I wasn’t abusing you Joe, you just come across as a very bitter egg.
Well we know that 85% of UDA/UVF targets were Catholic civilians, so no, IRA membership wasn’t necessarily required in order to be a target of both groups, your religion alone was enough to be targeted by both groups or all Unionist murder gangs. Your logic is “He must have been doing something wrong” or “he didn’t get it for nothing” when it comes to Finucane and I’m sure that extends to all people murdered by the UDA/UVF/RUC/etc when it comes to you Joe.
“Do you believe he was in the IRA? I do, based on the testimony of IRA men.”
What? from agents and touts working for the British State? lol Joe, like most Unionists, you’ll believe only what you want to believe but if you truly believed in Law and Order as you try to portray (poorly, btw) then you wouldn’t be going on about if Finucane was in the IRA or not. That’s how everyone knows your trying to justify his murder. We’re not Einsteins on this blog Joe but we’re not fleg protestors either, bear that in mind before you comment further.
I think that whoever killed him, or ordered his killing should be brought before the courts. Do you think the same about the people who “disappeared” touts as per the thread yesterday, or for any of the other murders carried out by the IRA?
answers on a postcard…..
Are you saying you would put your faith in alleged IRA men?
Presumably you also have proof of their membership!
“He was a Human Rights Lawyer Joe…..that’s what his job was….”
I thought he was a criminal defence lawyer. What is a human rights lawyer and how is it different from.a criminal defence lawyer?
He was a criminal defense lawyer who represented both republican and loyalist clients.
https://www.hrla.org.uk/
I suspect the answers you are looking for MT could be found here.
Or by contacting them.
“I suspect the answers you are looking for MT could be found here.”
Thanks.
So Finucane wasn’t a human rights lawyer as he didn’t specialise in human rights law.
Evidence?
Who are the “many”?
just one question for you, Joe, do you support the death penalty?
Douglas Hogg Verbally Condemned Pat Finucane …
I Quote.
“There are in Northern Ireland a number of solicitors who are unduly sympathetic to the cause of the IRA.”.
This is the same Douglas Hogg who was involved in the expenses scandal,eh? That went down well too…
Many believe that the earth is 6000 years old. Many believe that the Britishers are untrustworthy. Many believe that the Britisher state has no right to interfere in the governing of another state. Many believe that the remaining colonial rump in Ireland is incapable of reform.
“Many believe that the remaining colonial rump in Ireland is incapable of reform.”
lol they need their heads examined, you cant reform an utter failure of a state. Most people think that things will change when the demographics do, then we can vote for change, whether that will be in the form of Irish Unity, Joint Rule, etc awaits to be seen but it cant come quick enough.
Have the 16 police officers on duty that night been questioned under caution ? I think I know the answer to that already…
And if they had, who would be doing the questioning?
Oh yes, their mates!
The topic of today’s blog, Esteemed Blogmeister, has not been inexactly ticking all the tocsins in the Monominded Media this morning, south of the Black Sow’s Dyke.
That the topic has to do with one M.O.P.E. rather than another M.O.P.E. may well have something to do with it: Most Oppressed Papes Ever as distinct from Most Oppressed Prods Ever.
Hard to scientifically bench-mark these matters though there are possibly signs there to indicate that it might be one rather than the other M.O.P.E : ah, but which, that is the rub in Dubland.
Consider the following:
On loyal Liffeyside, where, at random, from the Prof of Irish History for Toffs in TCD is one, Eunanist O’Halpin to the hard selllebrity charged by RTE to present the past, Myles na Galipoli Dungan, the M.O.P.E. in question might possibly be not too difficult to deduce.
(Sadly, the snot of the Prof got what not in an ill-begotten, one-off spat with Tim Pat Coogan of late: reminiscent of the near mythical crash, bang, wallop of the sock exchange when Marvellous Marvin Hagler and Hit Man Hearns pitted their mitts one against the other. Nothing of the Rope-a-Mope about the latter, whatever about the former).
CARTOON GRAVEYARD
Down south the outrage is effening
Mute, to be almost so not deafening
In the bin, out the windo
This story goes at Sindo
Cute raconteurs prefer Mutt ‘n Jeffening.
Some of these officers are known to still be in the PSNI, yet we do not know their rank or responsibilities in that force.
Others have retired with big pay offs and fat pensions.
Surely if the PSNI (as they say themselves) are to reflect a different era of policing there should be no place within their ranks for such people, or are they, the PSNI, just the RUC Mk II and beneath the glossy surface nothing has really changed?
George Hamilton, the Chief Constable, was a member of the RUC at that time, what does he know, and is anyone asking?
“Others have retired with big pay offs and fat pensions”
Its already known that most of those who got big pay offs went back into the PSNI through the back door and were allowed to. Brian Feeney in the Irish News already stated that some of them are involved in investigations concerning Collusion between the RUC and Unionist paramilitaries….indeed Feeney said that a Catholic application to join the PSNI today is more likely to be turned down than a Protestant one…..now what does that remind us of?….
The PSNI was meant to be a new Police Force but the truth is its not, far too many RUC in it to be new, hence there’s a lot of truth in the term: “PSNI/RUC”.
“Its already known that most of those who got big pay offs went back into the PSNI through the back door and were allowed to.”
How is this known? Have you evidence?
but,buttttt.most bloggers and posters on here fully support the police,trying to each way themselves after every incident doesnt wash.
I’m not sure but I think John Hemsworth was an American citizen. Unless I’m thinking of another case where the RUC battered Catholics to death (or in the case of Robert Hamill, sat by and refused to intervene whilst Unionists trampled him to death screaming: “Die Fenian B*stard”) The “Bouncy” is used by Unionists to mock Hamills murder (I can show a video of such).
Its common knowledge that the British Government is deliberately covering up crimes, stopping Justice and protecting those involved in murders of Catholics, whether they be UDA, RUC or British Soldiers. Yet next to nothing is being done about it from either SF or the SDLP or the Irish Government. Martin McGuinness is occupied with wanting to have “gentle” conversations with the DUP. The SDLP is on life support but think bashing Sinn Fein will help them survive. The Irish Government seem to be doing nothing.
What other government in the Western World would behave like the British Government has? Deliberately and obviously hiding the truth and stopping people getting Justice? Its like something you would hear about in Africa or Asia.
I do sense a growing anger and frustration with what is going on in our society, the risks the British Government is taking with peace here really is incredible, even Tony Blair made reference to such. Indeed it was when David Cameron was PM that Blair said that the Peace Process here is still extremely “fragile”. If the growing anger and frustration continues I really do dread to think what will happen because people see Sinn Fein aren’t delivering, they see Unionists are still as stuck in the past as they were in the 1960’s and they certainly see the British Government isn’t playing fair and are obviously breaking their own laws.
The current agreements weren’t meant to last anyway, it was buying a few years of “peace”, so its inevitable Stormont will go sooner or later…..
PS: I wouldn’t be surprised if those RUC men who murdered John Hemsworth are still working in the PSNI or were given a large amount of money to leave. The PSNI was suppose to be a “fresh start”, apparently…….a “new” and “cross community” police force that has a 70% Protestant workforce in a 50/50 Protestant/Catholic society……yeah, a real fresh start…..
The Bouncy originated on the terraces of Ibrox in 1989. Robert Hamill was murdered in 1997. The gang who did it were obviously planning it for 8 years.
“The Bouncy originated on the terraces of Ibrox in 1989. Robert Hamill was murdered in 1997. The gang who did it were obviously planning it for 8 years”
So your denying it is now used by Unionists in reference to Robert Hamill Joe? Next you’ll be saying the Orange Order aren’t sectarian or provocative….
“you’re”
I didn’t see any reference to Hamill there, no. (Although I wouldn’t have the protestors or the paraders around for tea anytime soon). I am also sure Rangers fans or NI fans who do the bouncy are doing it in support of their team not in some murder gloat. Take your tin foil hat off.
“I didn’t see any reference to Hamill there, no. (Although I wouldn’t have the protestors or the paraders around for tea anytime soon). I am also sure Rangers fans or NI fans who do the bouncy are doing it in support of their team not in some murder gloat. Take your tin foil hat off.”
That’s because you have your blinkers on Joe. So they were doing the Bouncy in front of Nationalist protestors because they are Rangers Fans? despite the parade having absolutely nothing to do with sport….and one man shouting “You are second class” and the crowd cheering. I suppose when Jamie Brysons band stopped when they just passed St Patrick’s Chapel to do the Bouncy that they did that because they were simply Rangers Fans too? again….the parade (just like the one in the video) had nothing to do with sport…..but both parades did have everything to do with bigotry and anti-Catholicism.
Joe, we both know the truth, you know full well its in reference to an innocent Catholic man trampled to death, it says a lot about you that you take the stance you do. The reality is people like you Joe are going to be left far, far behind as time goes on and that’s no one’s fault but your own…..
I don’t know what goes through their heads Ryan and neither do you. My point is not every one who does “the bouncy” is making a reference to Hamill. It would be pretty paranoid to think so.
Do you think it would be possible to comment on threads without personal abuse? I believe it isn’t tolerated here (although that may only be Unionist on Republican abuse).
“I don’t know what goes through their heads Ryan and neither do you. My point is not every one who does “the bouncy” is making a reference to Hamill. It would be pretty paranoid to think so”
I know what goes through their heads Joe: Sectarianism. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to work that one out……
No, your point was its never used at all in reference to Robert Hamill and now your seeing the absurdity of your position and are half admitting it IS used in reference to Robert Hamill. Yes I’m sure it is used in an innocuous fashion by many NI fans but there’s no getting away that its used in such a sectarian manner also.
” It would be pretty paranoid to think so”
No ones paranoid Joe or maybe you are? It was Martin McGuinness just recently that basically said Unionist politicians are paranoid, he worded it as a “psychological problem”.
“Do you think it would be possible to comment on threads without personal abuse? I believe it isn’t tolerated here (although that may only be Unionist on Republican abuse).”
I’m not abusing you at all Joe, you simply don’t like my comments. As you know Jude warns people when it comes to abuse. I have described you as a “bitter egg” but that’s not abuse, its just how you come across. If thats abuse then you must’ve been abusing Pat Finucane. You can describe how I come across and I wouldn’t consider it abuse…..
And yes, Jude has warned republicans before for abuse or bad language. I believe I made an offensive comment about MT and I got a telling off.
While I am all for freedom of speech I am not in favour of slandering the dead. I could read such material online in the Sunday Independent if i was so inclined. Pat Finucane was not a member of the IRA; the de Silva report affirmed that.Neither was he “a bad egg”. A
former RUC Superintendent Alan Simpson who was charged with investigating the murder stated that Finucane was “simply a law-abiding citizen going about his business”.Nevertheless Simpson was directed by the then Chief Constable not to try too hard to find his killers.Sim Ruth Dudley Edwards assertion that he ws an IRA member and conspirator is based on the transparently fantasist account of Sean O’Callaghan, an informer and lying Walter Mitty. Shame on Joe Bloggs.
Why would O’Callaghan lie especially with the enormous risk to his life expectancy (we all know how the IRA treat touts….summary execution I believe is being ctriticised on this very thread….double think alert!?) Is everyone who doesn’t follow the Shinner version of history a fantasist? As regards the De Silva report, you obviously take every inquiry at face value. (I presume you stand by the Widgery report on that basis too?) His brothers John and Dermot were die hard IRA men and I have no doubt Pat was too. Good to see though that you think IRA membership is a slur and something to be ashamed of. WE agree there.
“Why would O’Callaghan lie especially with the enormous risk to his life expectancy ”
Seriously? Do you need to be walked through what is expected of a British agent by his employers? Seriously?
Btw, your sidekick, M.T, was quoting the De Silva report last week on this blog. So maybe yous two can decide between yourselves if we should take it ‘at face value’?
Why do you take issue with the De Silva Report which was produced by a man of international repute and has great integrity and prefer the words of a known fantasist? Perhaps it is because the former contains too many uncomfortable home truths about the British involvement in the north of Ireland.
You’ll no doubt have heard the expression “I am not my brother’s keeper “, Joe .I can say categorically that I know nothing about Mr Finucane but surely it doesn’t follow that because his brothers were supporters or even members of the IRA that he was a member too.That’s hardly rational. Isn’t he allowed to have a personal choice? That’s like saying that because your brother loves ice-skating or train-spotting that you have to like it too.It’s absurd reasoning.Take , for example the number of households which have been divided by the Brexit vote with opposing viewpoints and simply think about what you are saying.As far as I can make out , he was a lawyer who represented everyone.
paddy
I have to remind you that not so long ago ,you yourself were keen to highlight Emma Pengelly’s family history in a way I find similar to the Finucane case.
I consider it unfair in both cases.
Frequent mention is also made here (by Ryan I think not you) of Willie Fraser’s father as thought the son is responsible for the sins of the father.
We should be consistent in judging people by their own actions and not those of their family members.
Joe Bloggs “a bad egg” is slur enough to be getting on with. You prefer to take the word of a delusional liar like O’Callaghan against Stevens, the Historical Inquiries Team the RUC, and De Silva. O’Callaghan first admitted killing an alleged informer, then denied it. (The killing happened while O’Callaghan was working, , as allegedly was his victim, as a paid infomer for the Gardai.) O’Callaghan
claimed he sent a recording of the victim’s “confession” to the man’s widow. The widow refuted this. As regards the Widgery (and Compton) reports these were not inquiries but whitewashes commisisioned by Heath Carrington and Co. Stevens, Stalker , and De Silva appear to be independent-minded men of integrity.Which is why they met deceit and obstruction at every turn.
Is it something in the water? In the air?
A combination of the two?