Russia will be hosting the world cup in 2018 and currently Ukraine are on course for qualification as are both Irish teams.
Is it only the people who run British football or the fans who support England, Scotland,Wales or Northern Ireland who don’t realise that even amongst that small pool of 4 European football teams, definitions of who should even be categorised as war dead is extremely controversial and political – never mind publicly commemorating their war dead at the volatile surroundings of an international football match?
If Northern Ireland or Welsh fans (who are now both also threatened with punishment by FIFA) or the English or Scottish FAs (or the FAI) are penalised by FIFA for their breaches of a very sensible attempt to keep politics out of international sport – then they should be commended not subject to political attacks by British politicians whose rhetoric further reinforces the politicising of the Poppy.
…keep the politics (of war) out of international sport.
There is no question that the poppy is political. In Ireland it is a symbol of the political division that has existed for centuries.
Unionism rarely misses an opportunity to rub in their position of superiority within that division.
The Northern Ireland match in question, for which the team could well lose points towards their qualification, and justifiably so, for it is about time someone stood up against such grossly sectarian behaviour.
But it was clear to see, that the Northern Ireland football team and its associates absolutely ripped the arse clean out of the sectarian display they made of the match.
The only positive is that with any luck, the days of them getting away with such behaviour are over for good.
The poppy isn’t sectarian. Please desist.
You should have gone to Specsavers!
You should have gone to Specsavers!
So should I – I’m seeing double!
A more fitting tribute would be to stand in solidarity with the Russian people in remembering the sacrifice their people gave in crushing nazism. 27 plus million citizens perished whilst its allies sat in southern England and watched to see who would win. But shhhhsh, we will stick to the narrative that good old Blighty ‘won the war’ and saved us from speaking German.
It’s sad how the poppy has become so politicised in the last ten years or so: both by proponents and opponents feeding off each other.
What used to be a solemn understated occasion consisting of the unassuming wearing of a paper poppy and attending a church service, is now a near-month long event with displays, events and of course embroidered football shirts have suddenly become essential.
MT
yes, on the nose.
i wouldnt watch football but of these 4teams and supporters most i think would consider themselves british so whats the big deal them wearing poppies.on the otherside waving tricolours or slegging a bit of dogs abuse across the terraces is what football support used to be,its all pc now.they even complained about the red army pushing a made up coffin up the c/ville rd when maggie thatcher died ffs,they need to brighten up.
For years we have been told that the IFA have been doing their best to attract Catholics to play for NI by making the atmosphere at matches more neutral.
But by their gung-ho attitude over this poppy day display they have once again made it clear that Catholic/nationalist players will be subject to pro-British attitudes, especially as no one from the IFA said that anyone not comfortable with such displays could follow their conscience while representing NI.
The cold house for northern Irish footballers has returned with an Arctic blast!
Nobody of any religion should be offended by an act of remembrance.
MT,
I’m guessing you may be excluding an act of remembrance for Bobby Sands et al from that observation?
“I’m guessing you may be excluding an act of remembrance for Bobby Sands et al from that observation?”
Obviously. Sands was a criminal who killed himself in a gross act of manipulation. Remembrance is about the war dead.
MT,
a large % of Nats view it differently,
And a large % of unionists are at odds with the queen over those killed in the earlier insurgency at the start of the 20th century.whilst legitimising their own armed rebels of the same period.
Russia and Ukraine are unlikely to agree on who deserves to be honoured as war dead.
“a large % of Nats view it differently,”
Then a large % of nats are wrong because what I said was objectively true. The sad fact is that a large % of nats supported terror.
“And a large % of unionists are at odds with the queen over those killed in the earlier insurgency at the start of the 20th century.whilst legitimising their own armed rebels of the same period.”
Are they? If so, they’re wrong too.
“Russia and Ukraine are unlikely to agree on who deserves to be honoured as war dead.”
Not sure how that’s relevant.
I suppose thehat the youngsters who died in their thousands in the slaughter of World War One weren’t manipulated into giving away their lives needlessly and for nothing.
“I suppose thehat the youngsters who died in their thousands in the slaughter of World War One weren’t manipulated into giving away their lives needlessly and for nothing.”
Why do you suppose that?
The BBC forcing the Cookie Monster to wear a poppy shows how far this has gone.
A clear case for investigation by the ISPCA
My great-grandfather fought at Gallipoli. His three brothers were in the Navy, the Canadian Expeditionary Force and the Irish Rifles respectively in the same war. My grandfather was in the Expeditionary Force in WW2 and was badly injured.
In the case of my grandfather he was an active Irish republican. He however recognised that Nazism was the greater threat. He and people like him and my other progenitors fought so that I and others don’t have to wear a Swastica on my arm, or a Yellow star on my lapel.
I don’t want to wear your poppy either as it is equally distasteful to me as I see it as a visual representation of support for British militarism. I won’t countenance that. It is most certainly a political symbol. It is most certainly divisive.
The poppy campaign is a revenue generator for the British Legion. This money can be used to support (ex) British military personnel with health and psychiatric issues. So if I contributed to the poppy appeal I could be paying for the psychiatric support of one of the serial killers of Bloody Sunday who is perhaps having trouble coming to terms with his bloody past. A past that not one of them has been held to account for.
“Would you like to buy a poppy Sir?”
“No thank you.”
Ciaran,
Well put.
We can reasonably assume that in the countries mentioned above and the Balkans and throughout Africa there are numerous such examples of disagreements over who should and should not be commemorated as war dead and to take those positions into the international football arena is sensibly regarded as – at best – very unwise.
MT, when you think back on the sacrifices that Protestants made to escape from under the papish yoke do you never wonder why our local struggle never threw up any unionists who were willing to go on hunger strike for anything? They were always to the forefront when it came to paid employment in the yeomanry but maybe a hunger strike was a step too far.
Arguably fiosrach ( and I know you were not asking me) – but thousands of Unionists did bravely head off to the trenches when called upon – and the mortality rate was probably similar to those who began hunger strikes.
They did not know in advance that the mortality rate would be so high, the Somme was the first time britain had sent such a large scale force into action and from what I have read most expected the war to be a quick victory.
How many would have went had they known in advance just how certain the scale of misery and death would have been?
The hunger strikers knew they would die and were willing to endure a slow and painful death such was their conviction.
Only nations who have truly suffered oppressive regimes produce such heroic people, and that is why their courage is recognised throughout the planet where such suffering is well understood.
It must not be allowed to be swept under the carpet Sammy, not even for a united Ireland.
Do you recognise and honour the courage of the 9/11 bombers?
“9/11 bombers?”
Eh?
Arguably,Sammy, if you join up,for whatever reason, you have a belief in your eventual survival. Unless you have a death wish. A generation of young unionists were wiped out – or their wipe out was engineered – and the results are now bust becoming evident.
Jessica,
“Only nations who have truly suffered oppressive regimes produce such heroic people, and that is why their courage is recognised throughout the planet where such suffering is well understood.”
Some British have their hierarchy of victims and so do some republicans. I see no merit in going down that route.
“Some British have their hierarchy of victims and so do some republicans. I see no merit in going down that route.”
I never mentioned victims and I have no idea what route you see no merit in.
Perhaps you could clarify your thinking here Sammy. You compared the hunger strikers with those who joined to fight in WW1, but seem to suggest recognising the sacrifice made by the hunger strikers is not something you think has any merit.
I would disagree very strongly but perhaps you could clarify for me.
Jessica,
as the headline indicates – commemoration of war dead is political in my view.
re. “You compared the hunger strikers with those who joined to fight in WW1, but seem to suggest recognising the sacrifice made by the hunger strikers is not something you think has any merit”.
Not sure where you got that from – I was saying that I see no merit in suggesting one is more deserving of respect than the other because they are more heroic- which you seemed to suggesting in your statement
“Only nations who have truly suffered oppressive regimes produce such heroic people, and that is why their courage is recognised throughout the planet where such suffering is well understood.”
Comparing the courage of the trenches to the courage of the hunger strikers is not something that advances the argument for either side – in my opinion – no matter which side you are arguing on behalf of.
“as the headline indicates – commemoration of war dead is political in my view.”
Wars are often political yes, but commemoration of the war dead is only an issue if it is allowed to be.
Northern Ireland is a divided society that has emerged from a recent conflict that is still raw to many on both sides.
Whoever in the Northern Ireland football team and its association who thought it would be a good idea to organise a poppy display among a section of the supporters, to allow the british legion on to lay a wreath commemorating all british forces including the MRF, FRU, Parachute regiment, Black and Tans etc… did a very good job of politicising the football team and made such a disgustingly political statement in a sporting event that it will almost certainly result in a penalty fine whether it be financial or deduction of points towards their qualification, which as I said before would be totally justifiable and deserved.
However, it is not always wrong to commemorate the war dead. The queen showed how to commemorate the war dead with respect and without animosity.
I could not and would not want to prevent the british from commemorating their war dead.
Likewise, they can not and will not stop us from commemorating ours.
“Not sure where you got that from – I was saying that I see no merit in suggesting one is more deserving of respect than the other because they are more heroic- which you seemed to suggesting in your statement ”
fiosrach mentioned the sacrifice of the hunger strikers and you compared it for some reason with only the unionists who joined the trenches in WW1.
I have never claimed anyone is more deserving of respect than the other, in fact I would say that they are all deserving of respect.
“Comparing the courage of the trenches to the courage of the hunger strikers is not something that advances the argument for either side – in my opinion – no matter which side you are arguing on behalf of.”
I didn’t, you did as pointed out above.
Not sure what the argument is. War commemorations are fine, but need to be respectful of others, especially in parts of the world divided by conflict.
They should not be imposed or make others uncomfortable, where they are divisive they should not be in shared spaces but where the community in which it is located is comfortable and acceptant.
It is the lack of respect and tolerance towards others that is the problem here, not the commemoration of war dead
“Whoever in the Northern Ireland football team and its association who thought it would be a good idea to organise a poppy display among a section of the supporters, to allow the british legion on to lay a wreath commemorating all british forces including the MRF, FRU, Parachute regiment, Black and Tans etc…”
The poppy doesn’t commemorate all British forces but only those who died in war. It certainly doesn’t commemorate the MRF or the FRU, and the Black and Tans weren’t members of the armed forces and the Anglo-Irish war dead aren’t included anyway.
“The poppy doesn’t commemorate all British forces but only those who died in war. It certainly doesn’t commemorate the MRF or the FRU, and the Black and Tans weren’t members of the armed forces and the Anglo-Irish war dead aren’t included anyway.”
This is a fine example of doublespeak. Could also be a fine example of complete tosh. Dear oh dear.
In 50 or 100 hundred years from now will this poppy farce still be on-going?
“This is a fine example of doublespeak. Could also be a fine example of complete tosh.”
It’s neither doublespeak nor tosh. On the contrary it’s true.
……….. And the Black and Tans weren’t members of the armed forces”. So writeth MT
“……….. And the Black and Tans weren’t members of the armed forces”. So writeth MT”
They weren’t. They were police.
What part of armed forces do you not understand?
“What part of armed forces do you not understand?”
Clearly you don’t understand the term.
And if the servicemen died in the Anglo-Irish war then according to you they are commemorated by the poppy. It was a war, wasn’t it? And they were British servicemen? Therefore they meet your criteria.
“And if the servicemen died in the Anglo-Irish war then according to you they are commemorated by the poppy. It was a war, wasn’t it? And they were British servicemen? Therefore they meet your criteria.”
I expressly stated that they *weren’t* commemorated by the poppy so it certainly wasn’t according to me.
I don’t have any criteria. I don’t manage the poppy appeal.
Those two comments crossed over. I was referring to your remark that the poppy commemorates ‘ only those who died in war’. How do the British soldiers who fell in the Anglo Irish war not qualify for the poppy fest ?
“Those two comments crossed over. I was referring to your remark that the poppy commemorates ‘ only those who died in war’. How do the British soldiers who fell in the Anglo Irish war not qualify for the poppy fest ?”
The poppy commemorates those who died in the First World War, the Second World War and conflicts wince 1945.
May be of interest MT, since you seem oblivious to the fact the poppy is a political and sectarian symbol in Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_poppy
Northern Ireland
The Royal British Legion also holds a yearly poppy appeal in Northern Ireland and in 2009 raised more than £1m. However, the wearing of poppies in Northern Ireland is controversial. It is seen by many as a political symbol and a symbol of Britishness, representing support for the British Army. The poppy has long been the preserve of the unionist/loyalist community. Loyalist paramilitaries (such as the UVF and UDA) have also used poppies to commemorate their own members who were killed in The Troubles.
Most Irish nationalists/republicans, and Irish Catholics, choose not to wear poppies; they regard the Poppy Appeal as supporting soldiers who killed Irish civilians (for example on Bloody Sunday) and who colluded with illegal loyalist paramilitaries (for example the Glenanne gang) during The Troubles. Irish nationalist groups, and victims’ groups, have urged the BBC to end its policy that all presenters must wear poppies. They argue that it breaches impartiality and point out that political symbols are banned in workplaces in Northern Ireland. They also say that the BBC, as a publicly funded body, should broadly reflect the whole community. Likewise, the director of Relatives for Justice has condemned the wearing of poppies by police officers in Catholic neighbourhoods, calling it “repugnant and offensive to the vast majority of people within our community, given the role of the British Army”. In the Irish Independent, it was claimed that “substantial amounts” of money raised from selling poppies are used “to build monuments to insane or inane generals or build old boys’ clubs for the war elite”. However, on Remembrance Day 2010 the SDLP’s Margaret Ritchie was the first leader of a nationalist party to wear one.
Republic of Ireland
During World War I, all of Ireland was part of the United Kingdom and about 200,000 Irishmen fought in the British Army (see Ireland and World War I). Although the British Army is banned from actively recruiting in the Republic of Ireland, a small number of its citizens still enlist. The RBL thus has a branch in the Republic and holds a yearly Poppy Appeal there. The RBL also holds a wreath-laying ceremony at St Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, which the President of Ireland has attended.
The Republic has its own National Day of Commemoration in July for all Irish people who died in war. However, wearing poppies is not common and they are not part of the main commemorations. This is partly due to the British Army’s role in fighting against Irish independence, its activities during the War of Independence (for example the Burning of Cork) and the British Army’s role in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.
In the years following the War of Independence, the poppy was particularly controversial, with nationalists seeing it as a provocative symbol of British imperialism. In Dublin, British Legion marchers often had poppies snatched from their lapels, which led to street fights. In response, some poppy-wearers hid razor blades in their poppies. “As the 1930s progressed, ‘Poppy Day’ lost much of its violent edge in Dublin, but the wearing of the symbol also became less commonplace in subsequent decades”.
You know things are bad when you’re quoting Wikipedia to support your assertions.
Who or what do you quote?