What’s your view on the Disappeared? That’s the term the media have coined to describe those people, usually within the republican community, who were killed by the IRA and their bodies secretly disposed of. Only a few days ago the Irish Independent had an editorial on the subject. It notes that two more bodies of the Disappeared have been found and their families have been able to experience some degree of finality. The paper lists four others, included Robert Nairac, the whereabouts of whose bodies still remain unknown. “The Provo cowards who carried out the executions need to now do the right thing” the editorial concludes.
Let’s start with that last statement about “Provo cowards”. When men joined the IRA back in the early seventies, they were warned that the chances were high that they’d end up either in prison or dead. Despite this, hundreds of young men joined the IRA. Whatever you may think of the use of violence for political ends, it’s obvious that a considerable degree of courage was required to join the organisation. So to talk about “Provo cowards” because they were involved in the execution of someone seen as an enemy doesn’t mean they suddenly become cowards.
Now let’s consider the bodies of the Disappeared which have been located. In many although not all cases, the location of these bodies was made possible through information passed on by republicans. If we are to believe Sinn Féin statements, and I don’t see why we shouldn’t in this case, they are as anxious as anyone to conclude the whole Disappeared matter and help relatives to locate and bury their loved one. But many of these killings occurred nearly fifty years ago. Those involved almost certainly worked hastily and in darkness, at some remote spot. Add almost fifty years and it’s perfectly possible the men who buried the bodies are far from sure of the location of the body. It’s also possible that those involved in the killings are now dead, or are incapable of remembering very much of anything.
But the question remains “Why were they killed?” This is at the core of the Disappeared cases. Such media items as the Indo editorial imply cowardice and vindictiveness, but they do so without any supporting evidence. The idea that the IRA would for no reason select innocent people within their own community, kill them and bury their bodies in a bog doesn’t ring true. What would such actions gain the IRA, beyond resentment and hostility from the families and friends of such people? The more likely reason is that the IRA believed such people to be informers; and in most societies, including Britain, the fate of a revealed informer in a period of conflict tends to be death. Any paramilitary organisation that doesn’t act on what it believes is an enemy within is an organisation that’s encouraging its own destruction. The claim that the IRA acted as judge, jury and executioner could equally be made of British forces and probably in more cases than those listed among the Disappeared. And of course as we know, people charged as having been involved in the IRA didn’t get a jury.
None of this is to say that the pain suffered by families of the Disappeared isn’t very real. Or that IRA members didn’t on occasion commit terrible crimes. But the assumption that the killing of the Disappeared was conducted on a cruel whim and that the wherabouts of the victims’ bodies is deliberately being kept from the families are both just that – unsubstantiated and unlikely claims.
As for the killing of Robert Nairac, a British army spy believed to have been involved in the deaths of a number of nationalists and republicans, the obvious question must be “What should the IRA have done with him?”
Robinspited Nairac was awarded the George Cross.
What action of his persuaded Her Gracious Majesty to award it?
Why did Colonel Wilford get an OBE rather than a a jail sentence>
Why should anyone give a fiddler’s what the Irish Independent thinks?
Why doesn’t it do the decent thing and itself disappear?
When will Ireland have a self-respecting daily National newspaper as wished for by Arthur Griffith?
Didn’t Arthur Griffith edit a newspaper which he used to make anti-Semitic remarks and whip up hatred against the Jews?
i would submit that the person if the media and British intelligence is to believed who would know more about these events is currently living under British protection IE Stakeknife !!! as for Jude speaking up for the provisional IRA , i would like to remind MT that the Shankill butchers /UFF /UVF /UDR/RUC/RED HAND COMMANDOS where just that butchers of innocent Catholics carrying on a tradition of the loyalist / unionist since the early 1900’s and before, where they terrorised and murdered at will the nationalist /catholic community of the north before the term terrorist was ever heard off or invented
I agree with your answer to the question “Why were they killed?”
Much-vaunted British agents within PIRA surely need to account for their actions, as they would certainly have acted to eliminate anyone who might have raised suspicions about them.
A very balanced piece there Jude well worth reading for anyone interested in understanding.
What about Lenny Murphy and his crew , MT?
And the Glenane Gang?
Tartan Gangs?
And the…..
Well I’m sure that even you are getting the picture.
And just to go back into the beginnings of the whole business we can’t forget Carson, Bernard Law, Larne gun running and that eternal document of loyalty and fidelity to Britain and the Crown , The Ulster Covenant.
I don’t think MT was trying to defend these gangs, The author is certainly trying to defend the IRA’s actions here.
You either need to have reading lessons, jb, or go to Specsavers. Get someone to read my piece to you.
Well your answer to this question would settle it. Do you think that the people who carried out these murders should be brought to justice? You have spoken in the past about a hierarchy of the accused with the state coming first, but you have always evaded the question of whether the perpetrators of IRA murders should face justice. It might clarify your position as to “apologist” / “seeker of truth”.
Dear Joe B,
If I may – here’s the way certain types of ‘reading’ works:
The author gets to pose lots of questions, make a number of relevant (or otherwise) comparisons, call into question the opinion of others, and yet, and at the same time, say nothing of any weight himself, so avoiding any opinion.
You will notice that I haven’t said anything about any author here doing that.
And please accept my apologies for my appearance. I had the misfortune to spill tea on my apron and the hems of my dress carry a residue of dust from an earlier fall.
Yours sincerely,
Alice.
I am sure there is a point you are trying to make Peter, but it has gone right over my head anyway.
I would be quite opinionated and what I write will be to the point and as blunt as shovel in your face.
Others are less so and try to be more subtle.
If you aren’t happy with the quality of the blogs, the offer has been made to write your own which will be published. Perhaps more contributions from our unionist friends would help us understand your points of view better.
“If you aren’t happy with the quality of the blogs…”
Au contraire, Jessica, the quality of the writing is not in question; indeed, I almost covet the sophistication of certain authors.
the silence speaks volumes….
“What about Lenny Murphy and his crew , MT? And the Glenane Gang? Tartan Gangs? And the…..Well I’m sure that even you are getting the picture.”
Eh? What about them?
Based on what I have heard, read and a degree of reading between the lines and joining dots which could be wrong altogether, but the best I can do.
In the early 70s, the british were winning if you believe there can be winners in conflict, but they had infiltrated the IRA through paying people both to inform and to follow instructions to sow mistrust and misinformation.
Some agents we now know were given the green light to murder to gain trust and move higher up in the organisation, others would be more discrete and the majority would be low level information who were used and abused to various degrees.
The result was, for a period in the 70s the IRA was in a state of paranoia and about to implode in on itself. They were inches from total defeat. It was during this time, most of the disappeared were killed and the bodies abandoned. To clarify, this in no way at all excuses what happened nor is it in any way at all an attempt at all to justify it. It is interesting that stake knife is linked to so many of these being a state agent at the time. Was it another attempt to turn local people off the IRA?
The introduction of the cell system saved the IRA from defeat in the 70s. Going forward, very few people would know the identities of the members in local units and nothing about what went on outside their own area whatsoever. This significantly reduced the information going back to MI5 and turned things around.
A new phase had started, which would be more focussed on intelligence gathering and discretion, which it was accepted would take time and therefore became known as the long war strategy. The IRA had to accept they were in it for the long haul basically. Attempts to broker a truce started in the 80s but the intelligence gathering continued which also required funding and it took embarrassing and costly successes such as Canary Wharf and Heathrow to convince the british parliament to over rule the military to accept that a no win solution would have to pursued. The british army after a triple attack on heathrow were unable to guarantee they could stop such attacks going forward basically. Human life, especially in Ireland would be acceptable, but bringing London business to a standstill was not.
As for Nairac, I heard it was not the IRA who killed him but civilians. Some believe he had infiltrated the IRA and had a degree of command in south armagh. Enough to enable him to order the kingsmill massacre. He was becoming an embarrassment as everyone but the IRA knew he was a state agent.
I would love to hear what an independent enquiry would find in this and many of the british army operations in the 70s.
If New Zealand was suffering from after-shocks in the wake of the earthquakes last week near Christchurch and Chicago, Esteemed Blogmeister, down here in empathetic Dublin-sur-Liffey we know precisely how they feel.
For we too who dwell near our own windy hill top Christchurch and its sonorous bell-tolls are suffering from the aftershock of the sad seismic news which reached 14.18 on the Richter Scale of RTE Radio this very morning:
-You are soon to hear me (gulp) Disappear before your very ears.
One could not but be reminded by this solemn announcement of the deathless lines of Sir Alfred Austin, Poet Laureate which he composed on the illness (alleged) of the Prince of Wales:
-Across the wires the electric message came
He is no better, he is much the same.
The difference in this latest instance, is as follows: it was the pushy (alleged) , putative former holder of the most lucrative cushy number in RTE , Gay Byrne (for it is he !) who ) himself courageously (gasp) made the announcement.
(Some bitter lemons from the snide side of the tracks substituted ‘outrageously’ for the c-word. But a distraught Perkin is not numbered among this embittered cohort).
Distraught though one may well be, yet the future is not entirely fraught with dismal gloom. There are, are there not, encouraging straws from the past, to which one feels bound to cling: GB has, sadly, suffered the indignity of not one but two, erm, shank-kicking bankruptcies as a result of financial ill-health.
Notwithstanding, and not unlike the rubber ball which (gasp) the recently deceased Bobby V once sang so jubilantly about, GB bounced back on both occasions:
-Bouncy, bouncy,
Bouncy, bouncy.
There is at least one life-long admirer of West Britannia’s greatest ever broadcaster who doubts not but that he has the requisite basket of rubber balls from which to draw upon, in this his latest challenge. GB has the proven record in bounce-back ability.
(The above embittered cohort has been quick off the mark to hint, darkly. To the effect that this morning’s laughter-dislodging headline which has done so many heads in, is but a crafty dodge on the part of the early announcing Late, Later to see that he gets his Due Desserts. Having, on one royal, loyal and bile-free occasion, already shown his hand, by withholding his hand from The Bearded One).
They have even had the temerity to take a Treaty Stone from the Limerick Temperate Zone of The Perkin, by taking advantage of his being distracted by his distraughtiness.
SEE HERE, MADAME, SEE to SIR GAY BYRNE.
Let the German Q, the Blue Rinse Boss
Do the right thing in Buckingham Schloss
(By dad, Cap’n Bob Nairac
Rhymes with Bagdad, Iraq)
A posthumous knighthood’s a dead loss.
Instead of vacuous remarks,MT and joebloggs, maybe you could point out exactly where you disagree with jude and while you’re at it – have you any views on the legality or morality of the presence of the British state in Ireland?
Good piece Jude. The B26 county hypocritical double standard lives. MRF victims ( Daniel Rooney, being one) did not have the benefit of a jury, an innocent man summarily executed
Some of you may notice that I have taken down comments by MT and Joebloggs. I’ve done this, not because they disagree with me but because they have engaged in casual abuse. The same will happen to any other such comments, from them or anyone else. Don’t say I haven’t forewarned…
Ahh sure, there”s nobody so precious that we cant read a bit of casual abuse every-so-often…..and Im pretty sure that its nothing that we haven’t heard before. God knows we have been listening to it since 1690.
Let them back on to vent their spleen.
I was beginning to wonder there , Jude…the ghost of MT indeed!!. i came to you late today and I did get the distinct impression that old MT has beent rolling again.I really wish he’d try to write something of his own …from his own experience …that we could all discuss .I’m beginning to get the distinct impression that he is in reality , one of those bots that crawl the net, sniping and snapping out responses without any real engagement..I used to be entertained , but now he’s become a bit of a non-event.I’d love , if only for the sake of curiousity, to know if he’s actually a real person.I’m not convinced that he is more than an electronic signal….
Hardly abuse! MT described your defence of the provisional IRA as “unsurprising” and I described it as “gut wrenching”.
Well Joe, some people find M.T’s defence of the British army forces “unsurprising” and indeed “gut wrenching” but hey ho. Some are more equal than others.
“Some of you may notice that I have taken down comments by MT and Joebloggs. I’ve done this, not because they disagree with me but because they have engaged in casual abuse. The same will happen to any other such comments, from them or anyone else. Don’t say I haven’t forewarned…”
I’d like to make it clear that I didn’t engage in any abuse, casual or otherwise.
Jude likes to be provocative, which is fair enough, but he should expect others to make challenging comments in response. He can’t have it both ways. (Well, he can, actually, as he can censor comments he doesn’t like.)
I am not sure if this is just Jude being deliberately provocative but there is no way to view these killings other than as despicable and cowardly.
What else could the provos have done?
Well when it came to sex abuse they apparently simply moved the offenders out of the jurisdiction into exile.
Why could this not have been done with suspected informers or spies?
An informer living in Cork would be little use to anyone.
But that was probably too much trouble. Simpler to put a bullet in their head and dump them in a bog.
On the point that courage was required to join the organisation, that may have been true in some cases. No doubt many were just thugs and bullies who saw an opportunity for some power and prestige.
Targeting shopkeepers, census takers, and off duty policemen sitting in their living rooms requires a minimum of courage.
” No doubt many were just thugs and bullies who saw an opportunity for some power and prestige.” – Ah yes – Mr No Doubt. He clarifies everything.
“Have some more tea,” the March Hare said to me one November afternoon, at least that’s what I remember the Hare saying, although I could be mistaken.
“Tea?” I replied, “Why I took a cup earlier, but most of it ended up upon my apron and left the most ghastly stain; nothing, however, that a good laundering won’t sort out.”
“A good laundering?” the Hare inquired, as if he had no idea what I was talking about.
“Yes, a good laundering, that’s what it needs. We’ll brush it and scrub it and bleach it until it is purer than the driven snow and then we’ll pass it through the language mangle until the last of the misdeeds have been wrung through.”
““Curiouser and curiouser!” mimicked the Hare.
“Indeed.” A cheesy purr resonated across the hall. “I thought you knew, Mr. Hare, that the imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality.”
Says Mr “doesn’t ring true.” !
“Well when it came to sex abuse they apparently simply moved the offenders out of the jurisdiction into exile.”
There’s a good chance they could be at Westminster Gio…..or maybe they joined with the Unionists that made Kincorra orphanage into a paedophile brothel. Of course they are still covering up kincorra to this very day. Indeed even Paisley was told not once but seven times about the child abuse and didn’t act on it…..
“am not sure if this is just Jude being deliberately provocative but there is no way to view these killings other than as despicable and cowardly.”
How is Jude being provocative? Explain. How is killing someone and burying them “cowardly”? Are the American soldiers who killed Osama Bin Laden and ditched his body at sea “cowardly”? Oh no, I forgot you would support that, so it cant be cowardly. Are the people who started WW1 (the British Empire amongst them) cowardly for leading millions of men/civilians to their deaths? many of those same men’s bodies are still in the mud/ice to this very day. Oh no, I forgot you wear a Poppy to honour that, so that cant be cowardly either…..
I don’t agree with what the IRA done when it came to the Disappeared, everyone deserves a funeral and burial. But to describe it as “cowardly” just isn’t accurate, it takes guts to do something like that. Would I have the guts to do it? No, of course I wouldn’t want to anyway. But the feeling I get Gio is your only describing it as “cowardly” simply because it was the IRA behind this deed. The British Army are guilty of MILLIONS of worse deeds throughout their History right up until the present but yet….you still wear a poppy to honour them…..
“I don’t agree with what the IRA done when it came to the Disappeared, everyone deserves a funeral and burial. :
But you do agree with their thousands of other murders and crimes.
“The British Army are guilty of MILLIONS of worse deeds throughout their History right up until the present but ye…..:”
What are these millions of worse deeds?
“Are the people who started WW1 (the British Empire amongst them) cowardly for leading millions of men/civilians to their deaths”
Not to mention the hundreds of young men, some as young as 16, many teenagers who were shot for desertion usually suffering from shellshock in WW1.
Lets not mention the soldiers who raped millions of women after WW2. Not too much mention of that during the war remembrances. Sure, the vast majority was Russian, the british squaddies methods were to give food to the starving women in return for sex allowing them to return home knowing they didn’t officially rape anyone. Of course there were those in the british army who would engage in gang rape, some were found to have not only raped women repeatedly but when they had finished shot them dead.
Then there is the deliberate cover up of british involvement in the troubles. State forces organised the reavey and odowd killings as well as the kingsmill massacre through their connections both within the UVF and IRA in order to break the ceasefires, all because Nairac didn’t want the conflict to end, but to escalate so the SAS could be brought in. He succeeded, the ceasefires ended and the conflict escalated despite the UVF refusing to carry out the next instruction which was to murder a classroom of up to 30 primary school children.
Of course, the establishment and its media don’t want us to know about such things hence the official cover up, of which evidence known to exist is protected under national security.
would use the lack of food to
“But the feeling I get Gio is your only describing it as “cowardly” simply because it was the IRA behind this deed. ”
Good point
Gio, was it cowardly for those in the firing squads who shot and killed young men and boys as young as 16 in WW1 for desertion because they were ordered to?
Ryan
I don’t wear a poppy, but don’t let that stop you.
“No doubt many were just thugs and bullies who saw an opportunity for some power and prestige.
Targeting shopkeepers, census takers, and off duty policemen sitting in their living rooms requires a minimum of courage”
Your thinking of the UVF/UDA Gio
“Targeting shopkeepers, census takers, and off duty policemen sitting in their living rooms requires a minimum of courage”
“Your thinking of the UVF/UDA Gio”
He’s not. Those examples all relate to the PIRA.
Nobody here is defending the UVF or UDA.
“Nobody here is defending the UVF or UDA.”
What are your thoughts on the UVF and UDA MT?
I have found the unionist side, including our friend MT , very short on ideas beside ” not an inch” .
When asked what their objections are to a reunited Ireland one is confronted with blank stares.
Certainly they would be better off representing 20% of the population than 2% of The UK . M not sure of the exact numbers but you get the idea.
They can’t really be still afraid of Rome rule can they? Can they?
Any legitimate fears that might have been held100 years ago have long si nce vanished I would think, or can be addressed in negotiations , yet they continue to fiercely resist .
MT , Giordanocan you help us understand ? Please. .
I” have found the unionist side, including our friend MT , very short on ideas beside ” not an inch” .
When asked what their objections are to a reunited Ireland one is confronted with blank stares.
Certainly they would be better off representing 20% of the population than 2% of The UK . M not sure of the exact numbers but you get the idea.
They can’t really be still afraid of Rome rule can they? Can they?
Any legitimate fears that might have been held100 years ago have long si nce vanished I would think, or can be addressed in negotiations , yet they continue to fiercely resist .
MT , Giordanocan you help us understand ? Please”
I have found the nationalist side, including our friend Beachguy, very short on ideas beside ” tiocaidh ar la” .
When asked what their objections are to NI one is confronted with blank stares.
Certainly they would be better off representing 450% of the population than 15% of The Ireland . M not sure of the exact numbers but you get the idea.
They can’t really be still afraid of protestant rule can they? Can they?
Any legitimate fears that might have been held years ago have long si nce vanished I would think, or have been addressed in negotiations , yet they continue to fiercely oppose. .
Beach guy you help us understand ? Please. . .
“Certainly they would be better off representing 450% of the population ”
You must think we are all schizos MT lol
That’s a good one 😀
You certainly do know how to weasel around MT.
Instead of engaging in mature, constructive discussion you revert, as always, to trolling and avoidance.
But you have hit the nail on the head. The day will come and fairly soon, you know.
The question then will be whether the people in the south will opt to reunite with the north based on its bleak economic situation and ongoing strife and criminality.
This will distress many in the British establishment who are fed up to the teeth with all the shenanigans and costs in the wee statelet. They will , I predict, threaten the republic with all sorts of punishment if there isn’t reunification.
Good riddance will be heir parting words.
“Instead of engaging in mature, constructive discussion you revert, as always, to trolling and avoidance.”
Clearly my response went over your head.
But in literal terms I made the exact same.points as you, so if it was immature and unconatructive, then so were your points.
“But you have hit the nail on the head. The day will come and fairly soon, you know. The question then will be whether the people in the south will opt to reunite with the north based on its bleak economic situation and ongoing strife and criminality. This will distress many in the British establishment who are fed up to the teeth with all the shenanigans and costs in the wee statelet. They will , I predict, threaten the republic with all sorts of punishment if there isn’t reunification. Good riddance will be heir parting words.”
If you say so.
NOTICE TO ALL POSTERS
MT has succeeded. Admirably so. He continues to draw everyone into his little game.
Never has he managed to introduce any type of argument for the continuation of partition. Never has he engaged in sincere discussion. Instead he needles everyone , with a few exceptions , and many, myself included, take the bait.
The good thing is that his modus operandi epitomizes and demonstrates the stone wall attitude of many in the unionist community and shows us the futility of attempts at rational discussion with him and his ilk.
So I recommend that you basically ignore him and do something more important such as watching reruns of the Kardashians .
Beachguy
How’s the beach?
I am not actually a unionist,although that assumtion is sometimes made because I am not a supporter of physical force republicanism.
It is actually possible to be in favour of a United Ireland and not support SF.
I can’t really speak for unionists but my impression is they are simply unionist because they want to be,not because of any real fears.
Most will not change that feeling just as most nationalists will not become unionists no matter how appealing it might become financially or otherwise.
Those who might be called soft unionists (including the so called catholic unicorns ) are worth looking at as that is where the key to a majority lies.
No gio, there is no support for physical force anything and many people who are in favour of a United Ireland do not support SF.
You are considered a unionist by many here, purely because that is how you come across in your comments and attitudes, – pro partition or unionist.
You may have given an explanation for your position though.
Do you feel you would be financially or otherwise better off within the UK than in a united Ireland?
If so, I would rather hear your thoughts on this rather than your tedious and pointless backward thinking snubs towards sinn fein and republicans.
As somebody said ” You can’t eat a flag” .
But there seems to be a lot of time and energy wasted here on establishing who did what to whom. And who is still doing what to whom.
jessica
If you find my comments tedious why bother to reply to them, especially when, as in this case, they are in response to someone else?
Quote one, just one comment of mine which shows that I am pro partition and I will leave this site forever.
Should be simple for you. Tick tock.
Gio, you supported the unionist position of refusing to engage in inclusive talks about all options to improve quality of life here, if it included the option of ending partition which seems a strange position to take if you were not pro partition.
jessica
I always think engagement is better than non engagement.
I do, however, believe they are entitled to say ‘no thanks’ to talks about a United Ireland if they wish.
Saying they have the right not to talk is not at all the same as saying I am pro partition.
I hope you can see the distinction.
Once again not what I said gio.
I would not expect unionists to show to talks about a united Ireland.
What I do expect from all political leaders is to look at all options that will make a difference, to work towards getting the best for the people they represent, and refusing to engage in talks or to even consider whether we would be better off with a single economy on this island is simply sectarian bigotry.
Everything has to be on the table.
Your defending of this position is very much pro unionist pandering and therefore pro partition.
“What I do expect from all political leaders is to look at all options that will make a difference, to work towards getting the best for the people they represent, and refusing to engage in talks or to even consider whether we would be better off with a single economy on this island is simply sectarian bigotry.”
What talks are these??
jessica
“Your defending of this position is very much pro unionist pandering and therefore pro partition.”
Pure nonsense.
If that is the best you have I suppose I will have to stick around a bit longer.
“Pure nonsense.”
What is, that you constantly defend unionist intransigence or that doing so makes you pro partition?
Ryan
That is weak.
I have yet to see anyone here offer anything other than condemnation towards the UVF/UDA. Something I cannot say about the PIRA sadly.
If you view them as heroes well you are entitled to your opinion.Thankfully you are in a minority. Maybe one day you will see them differently.
Any thoughts on why the disappeared were not exiled instead of being murdered.?
I have never condemned the UVF/UDA gio, so once again you are making false statements. I have constantly said I can understand how young men and women seeing republican attacks on their community would decide to fight back. It is no different than what filled the ranks of the IRA and I will not condemn them for it.
Both communities here suffered over the conflict. It was not started by the working class loyalists who suffered more than their political leaders who not only started it but enflamed it for generations. These I would condemn and have yet to acknowledge their actions.
The british state did little to end it, choosing instead to try and win until the financial cost over attacks on london became too great.
“Any thoughts on why the disappeared were not exiled instead of being murdered.?”
I would imagine knowing you could be not only killed but killed and never seen again would have instilled more discouragement and fear to those thinking of turning informer. Simply exiling would have had the opposite effect and encouraged informants to step up.
Not nice but this is the harsh reality of conflict, which you support in your support for just war theory.
“Not nice but this is the harsh reality of conflict, which you support in your support for just war theory.”
It’s not his just war theory; just war theory doesn’t allow for war crimes; and the alternative to it is the moral vacuum that you inhabit.
“It’s not his just war theory; just war theory doesn’t allow for war crimes; and the alternative to it is the moral vacuum that you inhabit.”
I include all those who promote it in that, not just gio.
It is an attempt to brush over the horrificness of war and to justify it to the people who’s taxes ultimately pay for the cruelty it inflicts, usually in other parts of the world.
Just war theory has no morality whatsoever.
“I include all those who promote it in that, not just gio.
It is an attempt to brush over the horrificness of war and to justify it to the people who’s taxes ultimately pay for the cruelty it inflicts, usually in other parts of the world.”
It’s not. It provides a moral framework to minimise war and ensure its conduct minimises harm.
“Just war theory has no morality whatsoever.”
This is one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve ever read. Even more so coming from someone who supported terrorism.
jessica
I will amend my statement.
I have yet to see anyone here other than jessica, offer anything other than condemnation towards the UVF/UDA,
I don`t understand why these people were `disappeared` in the first place. People were normally killed and just lay where they fell, on all sides. Informers or those unfortunates who were wrongly accused of being touts were usually left lying on the border. Did loyalists ever `disappear` their victims? There doesn`t seem any logistical reason why some people suffered this fate. I think the anti republican media uses these people as a means to attack Sinn Féin and the IRA, I never heard any mention of them until fairly recently. I hope the families find their loved ones remains and get some closure at least. People describing certain actions as cowardly or brutal do so because of propaganda reasons, they supported the other side and therefore want to portray the IRA in a bad way. We see the same thing today, regular stories of those nasty Russians blowing up hospitals, not a word when the British are involved in civilian casualties.
The IRA admitted they killed Jean mc conville and gave their explanations for her and the other disappeared. In hindsight they perhaps should’ve taken the lead of ‘the good side’ I.e British state, and said nothing? That way they could’ve denied all knowledge of wrongdoing and dismissed any allegations as conspiracy theories.
If the great and the good want to reveal what truly went on here then they should be demanding the British state stop using ‘national security’ as an excuse not to disclose all relevant information they have. One suspects the great and the good don’t want the British state to come clean as it would puncture a big hole in the huge propaganda bubble they regularly rely on.
How many police and British soldiers were ‘allowed’ to die or indeed set up to die by the British spooks? How many soldiers/police families were ‘allowed’ to be targeted by Brit agents within the IRA? Remember Kitsons handbook. The war for ‘hearts and minds’ was a long brutal game of cricket for some.
I suppose when they use the ‘national security’ card they aren’t lying because if all was truly revealed their own people in Britain would be horrified like never before. Who knows what would happen to the ‘authority’ of the British state.
100% agree Wolfe Tone. Most Unionists assume any new files will only reveal calculated and deliberate plans just to murder Nationalists or collude with Unionist paramilitaries. It wont, it will most likely show that anyone here in the North, including Unionists, were expendable. Hence why after the Warrenpoint Ambush the British wanted to accelerate plans for “Ulsterisation”. Basically they wanted to put more Unionists on the front line to be targeted and killed by the IRA instead of English/Scottish soldiers. They knew no one back in England would give a toss if a lot of Unionists in uniform (or paddies, as the English would call them) were slaughtered by the IRA. But it would cause massive outrage in England if English born soldiers were killed and even calls for withdrawal from Ireland, hence why the IRA mainly focused on the British Army, not Unionist paramilitaries.
It occurs to me, that there is, somewhere, a panorama of ‘The Troubles’, painted in oil, by Basil Hallward.
My favourite film is ‘The Quiet Man’ my second favourite, queerly, ‘Where Eagles Dare’, the reason I mention this is, those of you who have watched the second one will be aware, the thrust of the film is bolstering english aggression against the hun, and tout’s.
In the film there are several, including a major one in the higher ranks, they all end up dead, thank’s to english actions, no-one, I think, complained at the use of death to dispose of unwanted informers, it was how things was done in them there day’s, which beg’s the question, what makes war for England different from war with England?
I know many will disagree but, even a housewife in west Belfast, who had been warned regarding her conduct on two previous occasions, had to be disappeared, otherwise where should it have ended? Others did not receive the same grace, the Free State media should recall, many former Dail Deputies, on both sides of the House, got rid of ‘informer’s’, for good reason.
otherwise where would it have ended…….ironic isnt it the way it ended some of the people who supported these actions are now openly calling on people to inform on republicans to british authorities.
“ironic isnt it the way it ended some of the people who supported these actions are now openly calling on people to inform on republicans to british authorities”
Not to me it isn’t.
The conflict is over. It was started by unionists and backed up by the british army, their actions led to the support for an IRA to fight back.
Just as people would not support the bombings of schools in Iraq or Syria by their own armies, many would still support the army who protect them.
Individual actions are not usually scrutinised the way the IRA has been.
I fully supported the IRA during the conflict and was even against the GFA to end it, it was too great a compromise for me.
But when the people supported it all over Ireland, democracy was spoken and we have to respect that.
The support is now for peaceful means only and to pursue equality and reconciliation and to focus on the best future for our children.
I support this completely and I believe that those who oppose the democratically expressed will of the people can rot in jail.
They wont be getting any sympathy or support and what should happen is the state split them up and remove them out of public housing to remove their grip on the communities.
The problem is MI5 are still running them and the authorities hands are still tied.
It will require political assistance for the changes needed to enable the PSNI to deal with this, and when this happens and the authorities have the capability of dealing with them without MI5 interference, I would support full assistance to the PSNI to get rid of them all.
I think that is fairly clear.
Where do you stand on the present situation billy?
Do you support the continued actions of dissident republican or loyalist groups?
“The support is now for peaceful means only”
Support was always for peaceful means only.
“Support was always for peaceful means only.”
Yes, but unionism decided to use violence against the catholic community, attacking the civil rights movement, burning Catholics out of their homes, forcing thousands of catholic families to flee across the border. Then there was the british army pushed into choosing sides and deciding to attack nationalist community, imposing curfews and killing innocent Catholics.
All this happened before the IRA took up arms and conflict began.
“Yes, but unionism decided to use violence against the catholic community, attacking the civil rights movement, burning Catholics out of their homes, forcing thousands of catholic families to flee across the border.”
No it didn’t.
“Then there was the british army pushed into choosing sides and deciding to attack nationalist community, imposing curfews and killing innocent Catholics. All this happened before the IRA took up arms and conflict began.”
No it didn’t.
But both points are irrelevant. It remains the case that support was always for peaceful means only.
MT, do you know how utterly stupid you sound when you simply reply “no it didn’t”, Come on, Take up the challenge put to you by several contributors on this blog, give us some detail of your own perspective, or are you, as has been suggested just a troll?
“MT, do you know how utterly stupid you sound when you simply reply “no it didn’t”, Come on, Take up the challenge put to you by several contributors on this blog, give us some detail of your own perspective, or are you, as has been suggested just a troll?”
The onus is on Jessica to support her wild claims, not on me to support my refuting of them. I regularly articulate my own reasoning.
Giordano is correct. People don’t have any obligation to engage . That’s their business but if you are going to engage even by simply uttering nonsense consisting of two or three words then that’s just acting like an idiot and the primary purpose is to annoy your fellows.
Or perhaps MT is unable to develop intelligent replies since he can’t think of any. Maybe he knows they don’t exist so he simply says silly things one would expect from a five year old.. Or maybe, EUREKA! , now we have it, MT is a five year old ! A five year old practicing his new words , like ” No,it isn’t” and such.
Just think of all the time and energy that has been wasted on MT. A five year old. Or an adult but at a five year old level.
But at least there has been help given to MT in developing his language skills.
Are you over your bed wetting problems yet MT ?
“Giordano is correct. People don’t have any obligation to engage . ”
I would disagree with this beachguy.
When elected representatives take up office, the are very much obliged to act on behalf of and in the best interests of ALL of the people that office represents.
“Giordano is correct. People don’t have any obligation to engage . That’s their business but if you are going to engage even by simply uttering nonsense consisting of two or three words then that’s just acting like an idiot and the primary purpose is to annoy your fellows. Or perhaps MT is unable to develop intelligent replies since he can’t think of any. Maybe he knows they don’t exist so he simply says silly things one would expect from a five year old.. Or maybe, EUREKA! , now we have it, MT is a five year old ! A five year old practicing his new words , like ” No,it isn’t” and such. Just think of all the time and energy that has been wasted on MT. A five year old. Or an adult but at a five year old level. But at least there has been help given to MT in developing his language skills. Are you over your bed wetting problems yet MT ?”
If you’re unable to engage in discussion or comment other than ad hominem, I’m not sure why you’re here. You’ve barely addressed any points. I shan’t be responding to any further inane or ad hominem comments.
jessica
“When elected representatives take up office, the are very much obliged to act on behalf of and in the best interests of ALL of the people that office represents”.
I do agree with this.
When SF,and the SDLP for that matter, do everything they can to bring about a United Ireland they are presumably doing so because they think it in the best interests of all of us.
Similarly when Unionist promote remaining in the UK they presumably believe it is in the best interests of us all.
Yes they should cooperate in running things on a day to day basis and they do not do that very well I think, but on the constitutional issue they cannot be forced to move.
Saying that does not make me pro partition. It is very simple.
This is absolute rubbish.
I don’t care what either side THINK is in our best interests, until we have an open and honest debate about what IS in our best interests, until we look at ALL of the options available to us and until the people are being provided with the FACTS and are allowed to make OUR OWN MINDS UP then we are going to be left in a sectarian limbo where we are ALL simply second rate Irish or second rate British subjects.
Sinn Fein are not doing everything they can to bring about a United Ireland. They are working within the boundaries that exist and allowing politics to run its course. Once again you resort to bullshit to justify your position.
As for Unionists promoting remaining in the UK. Equally bullshit.
Unionists are still acting in as sectarian a manner as they ever did. They act as though Northern Ireland has one political view, the unionist opinion is the only one that matters and totally disregard Irish nationalism. In a post conflict society, only a fool or a sectarian bigot could feel this is acceptable behaviour.
There has been nothing promoted from any side on either option. Both Dublin and London want as little to do with this place as possible. We are just left to muddle on until our society matures enough to discuss these options sensibly with both states and we agree an acceptable solution.
Hence my view that we are going nowhere until unionism is in a minority. Sinn Fein are simply preparing the ground work and getting the economy in as good a place as it can be for when this maturity is reached.
Partition is going to lead to much stronger economic competition on both sides of the border and is going to hurt us all more than it did when conflict limited economic growth in the north. The economy in the north is going to get stronger, but it will be no thanks to London or Dublin.
The stronger the northern economy becomes, the better the deal we will get when it comes to reunification.
We aren’t wanted around the place. Isn’t that really it in a nutshell?
Political scientists are not agreed on whether those elected to office are bound to abide by the sentiment of the electors or, on the other hand , whether they are elected because of their erudition and wisdom and are bound to do what they judge to be in the best interests of their constituencies.
It was widely believed that Bill Clinton always sought out what the popular sentiment was before making a decision rather than doing what he judged to be best.
And I suppose the recent Brexit and Trump results could be claimed to be more arguments for the difficult decisions to be left to the independent judgement of those in positions of power rather than relying on the passions of the voters.
I would put them down to desperation and the little guy hitting back.
Globalisation and debt austerity was disproportionately hurting the poorest while the wealthiest were gaining more control over economies on a global scale.
Enough is enough. These are not one offs, this anti establishment and anti globalisation resentment will remain high until the balance has been restored.
The nationalist community here is not driven by fear and animosity. Sinn Fein have no choice but to behave sensibly and in the best interests of all.
Unionism in Ireland has always been a minority with an unjustifiable control over land, jobs, wealth etc…
Many here want to portray it as a simple choice to remain in the UK, but it isn’t. That is a denial of history and ignoring the reasons for various uprisings or conflicts which have plagued our people for centuries. Unionism has not looked at its past, reflected on anything or even acknowledged its role in starting the conflict, why?
The support for remaining within the UK is not based on us being better off. I own multiple businesses and I assure you, opening up an all island single economy would help small businesses access the largest markets on this island which are more easier accessed than across the water.
Larger businesses would have no trouble trading with either or further afield, but it is a fact that small businesses provide by far the greatest revenue income and the most jobs to all economies, yet a small number of wealthy corporates who are usually overseas owned get the majority of the support.
How does that make any sense?
The reason unionists fear to have sensible talks about making significant changes and coming up with a new way of doing things that would work for all on this island, is simply down to hiding the facts that what is good for england is not always good for us and we would be better putting all of our efforts together in creating a new and innovative way of doing things in a new Ireland. Look at how successful Iceland has been.
At the moment, unionism to me is the same ball and chain holding Ireland back for selfish interests that it always has been.
“Unionism in Ireland has always been a minority with an unjustifiable control over land, jobs, wealth etc…”
How does unionism have an unjustifiable control.over land, jobs or wealth in Ireland?
“I assure you, opening up an all island single economy would help small businesses access the largest markets on this island which are more easier accessed than across the water.”
We already have an all island single economy as part of the EU, yet our biggest market by far is GB. Post-Brexit your proposal would greatly damage businesses and the economy by imposing trade barriers between NI and its biggest market.
No we don’t, that is a deliberate lie.
We are part of a single market within the EU that favours corporates at the expense of small business and has proven to hurt the poorest and put unsustainable pressures on society, in particular around health.
There are two economies on this island, and I could understand completely why people would wish to keep their money and business within their own economy.
I can tell you that more businesses would be able to extend their trade throughout Ireland than throughout the UK which is overseas and cannot be reached by jumping in the car.
The trade that exists between northern Ireland and GB is unlikely to be effected from an all island economy any more than trade fro the south of Ireland which is greater than in the north. It is also trade that exists with a small number of business, whereas a far far greater number of businesses would be helped from a single economy Ireland, on both sides of the border and in the border counties especially.
These are some of the facts that need to be established and given to the people here so we can make an informed choice. Statistics here are meaningless and can be misrepresented for political means as you have just proven.
jessica
You say;
“I don’t care what either side THINK is in our best interests,”
That is fine but presumably others are entitled to a different opinion?
They are entitled to pursue an agenda which they (not you) see as being the best way forward are they not?
Not if in doing so they are denying those of us who want to have all the facts, who want to be able to make an informed decision, who believe putting parties before people is denying the best opportunities for our people. Absolutely not.
What type of fool would proactively support political intransigence that refuses to explore all of the options to make this place better, more economically viable and politically stable, just to pursue a tribal line?
Nothing should be off the table, not a thing.
You are so hell bent on defending the unionist position and attacking Sinn Fein, you don’t even see how pathetic your stance has become.
Basically you are saying it is ok for us to be ruled without any facts because that is the way it has always been and some are happy with things this way, the opinions of those who with the same attitude led us into conflict in the first place are fine, lets not talk of change.
Well it is time there was a political revolution in both parts of this island and those paid well to lead us got their fingers out and demanded more for our people, or the people took matters into their own hands as the did with brexit and in the US elections.
Your day is over gio.
Our young people will not accept the same lame and pathetic excuses you and your unionist buddies keep coming up with.
“Not if in doing so they are denying those of us who want to have all the facts, who want to be able to make an informed decision”
What facts are you being denied?
jessica
How am I proactively supporting them?
All I am doing is saying they are entitled to their views. Unionists are allowed to be Unionists whether you like it or not.
So explain to me how that would differ from saying fascists are allowed to be fascists
jessica
I don’t know how to get past your bitterness so I will simply say that you are entitled to your opinion and I hope you agree that others are entitled to differ.
Refusal to accept less than equality is not bitterness
The fact you are so ready to accept the unionist refusal to engage as equals only further supports my view of your pro union credentials
“But when the people supported it all over Ireland, democracy was spoken and we have to respect that.”
Jessica with all due respect it could be argued that the results of previous elections before the GFA vote, that ‘democracy was spoken’ and the IRA ignored it. So to slam and chastise others for doing likewise is hypocritical. Btw, if I recall only 51% in the free state electorate chose to vote in the referenda. Of that 80-90% voted in favour so I don’t think it was as readily endorsed as people believe. Let’s be honest most people who voted for it didn’t read the booklet but rather took their lead from the great and the good. The people I know who refused to vote or voted against it read the booklet.
I know plenty of people who are fed up and indeed angry that the GFA was a pup sold to them. That doesn’t mean they want violence but alas if they speak out they are labelled dissidents etc which inevitably increases their anger. Sinn Fein of course ‘listen’ to people who have concerns about this or that and unfortunately they then sideline/eject those voices if they don’t follow the party line. Those ejected people could come back to haunt SF in the future. Labelling people touts,hoods etc is an old tactic that is wearing very thin these days especially so when some of the people doing the labelling resemble a big black kettle.
I wish SF all the best of luck in their endeavours. I am not arrogant enough to say they or right or wrong but I also should be allowed to stick to my beliefs and principles without being labelled something I am not. And I say this in all honesty, the rumblings of discontent with SF policies is growing and just like the results of brexit/trump the peasants that were regularly taken for granted could give SF a bloody nose in upcoming elections.
I have a lot of respect for your opinion WT, but I am not basing my choices simply on a vote I did not even participate in.
Both the IRA and the community which they were part off, were extremely conflict weary and fatigued.
The Canary Wharf bombings and Heathrow, were to persuade the british to accept a no win cessation of violence which had been in negotiations for over a decade.
When the army could not guarantee they could prevent it happening again and the cost to London, the state stepped in and accepted terms many in the state forces and in parliament were unhappy with and still are.
I am well aware of the difficulties with Sinn Fein, I do not always agree with them myself, hence I reject any attempt to portray a dissident as someone who disagrees with Sinn Fein.
To me a dissident is someone who refuses to accept that the conflict is over and who rejects the IRA decision to stand down.
If they want to attack and damage Sinn Fein they can do so, many do, they can join the queue.
We all have to make choices.
I chose to support the IRA in the conflict, I have chosen to respect their decision to stand down.
I believe that attempts to rekindle violence from the republican community will be what the british and many unionists will desperately want and are relying on.
It will in my opinion help unionists rewrite the narrative of the past, it will help the british hawks to get the victory over the IRA the desperately want as dissidents are infiltrated to their cores and it will tarnish the sacrifices made by so many IRA volunteers.
I therefore have already chosen to stand against dissidents. If they want a return to conflict, it will not only be the british they will have to fight.
“When the army could not guarantee they could prevent it happening again and the cost to London, the state stepped in and accepted terms many in the state forces and in parliament were unhappy with and still are.”
What were these terms?
“What were these terms?”
That the IRA were not defeated.
Many in the british side still find that hard to swallow.
“That the IRA were not defeated.
Many in the british side still find that hard to swallow”
I don’t follow. The PIRA ended its campaign, handed in its weapons and disbanded without achieving its aims. How can that be construed as anything other than defeat?
“I don’t follow.”
Why doesn’t that surprise me
As I said, some on the british side find it hard to swallow.
“As I said, some on the british side find it hard to swallow.”
Who finds what hard to swallow, and how do you know?
No problem Jessica thanks for taking the time to clear that up. Its just unfortunate when people who should know better lump everyone as a ‘dissident’ if they don’t sing from the same hymn sheet as SF. As I have alluded to before, there are people out there who have no time for the various dissident groups but they equally have no time for SF policy makers. Imho I think SF have been winging it since they got to stormont and it’s starting to grate folk. Mimicking the establishment political parties will only get you so far; following what’s perceived as the P.C brigade will only get you so far too as evidenced by brexit and trump. The peasants want an alternative and if they don’t get it they’ll likely plump for a protest vote just to spite the establishment.
Just for the record, it truly amazes me too why those various ‘republican groups’ constantly bang on about SF. They seem to forget who the enemy is. Like other republicans they need to accept where SF have went and move on. If they are going to throw insults at SF then they should also throw insults at the SDLP,FF,FG etc after all they all played a part in situation we have today.
I believe Sinn Fein have moved on and I fully support the direction they must take.
I too have been longing for an alternative all island republican voice, preferably less left wing but I have now accepted, none is coming forward and there is no viable alternative to Sinn Fein on this island.
I just don’t see northern Ireland as having any long term relevance or Stormont as being the establishment, hence when you mention the establishment here, I think more of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail, and see Sinn Fein as anti establishment. Usually the media support the establishment positions, so hard to see Sinn Fein as fitting that bill just yet.
Jessica, be careful what you write, the recently enacted Investigatory Powers Act (2016) enables the powers that be to monitor anyone they, now, suspect of disaffection, we’re back in 1916.
They can monitor all they want Mark.
I work longer hours than they do and they can waste their time and effort all they like.
Nothing interesting to see here im afraid, them days are long gone
I believe all the Disappeared will be found eventually, with the exception of Nairac. I have never read in depth about Nairac but one of my brothers has, he read a book about his case a few years ago. From what I heard Nairac thought of himself as some sort of James Bond, he certainly underestimated the IRA and their ability to smell a rat. He had a very convincing accent and knew a lot of Republican songs by heart. Apparently he was even singing Republican songs in a pub just before he was attacked in the parking space outside and took hostage.
A lot of accusations has been made about Nairac. Many have alleged that he was involved in many atrocities, including the Miami Showband Massacre (some alleged he deliberately set the bomb to go off early to kill the Unionists involved too) and even the Kingsmills Massacre. Alan Black, the sole survivor, said the leader of the gang that committed Kingsmills spoke with an English accent. Many have speculated that this was Nairac. Its important to remember the IRA still refuse to accept they done Kingsmills. Others alleged Nairac had a hand in the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, in which over 30 civilians were murdered without warning, including children and a 9 month pregnant woman who was carrying twins. The British Government to this day, despite repeated requests, refuses to release files on the atrocity….just one case out of countless others Westminster is suspected of having a hand in.
The reason why I believe Nairac will never be found is because there are rumours his body was put through a grinder and fed to pigs on a farm. Also, I don’t believe Republicans will give up his body if it still exists due to the activities he was involved in. He didn’t get the George Cross for nothing. I think they will see it as lasting revenge.
The case of the Disappeared is a shocking one. Regardless of what these people were involved in their families deserve to have their bodies back, its hard enough losing a family member but not having a grave to go just stops the grieving process from ending, there’s no finality. In fact many haven’t been able to properly begin to grieve. Like in most families, when there’s a death having a grave to go to is very important and obviously helps get over the grief knowing a loved one is very close.
I agree with Jude that those Republicans directly involved in making these people “Disappear” are most likely dead or simply cant remember the exact location. Areas change, what was once waste land in 1970 could now have homes or a farm. Features like trees could have been cut down. Areas that were once dry could now be a marsh. The land changes as time goes on. Human activity along with 4 decades of rain fall, snow and hot summers will change an area. This makes finding these bodies extremely difficult but every effort should be given by Republicans in order to find them.
Were the IRA cowards for doing this? No, it was wrong for them to do it but very far from cowardly. Most people who joined the IRA really didn’t have a choice, the war came to them. If I lived back in the 1970’s and I was seeing British soldiers and their Unionists Allies oppressing my community I would’ve definitely have joined up. Both my mother and father witnessed people being killed by British soldiers. My father was an 11 year old when he and his friend witnessed his friends 17 year old brother get shot in the head by Brits and lay on the ground with his brains splattered across the street. My father said seeing his friends reaction to his brother being killed was worse than the actual killing. My mother, who was 10, lost one of her close friends whose case was recently in the media, Francis Rowntree. He was murdered by a British soldier for nothing, absolutely nothing. My Uncle (my fathers eldest brother) was interned without trial on the Maidstone ship despite having NOTHING to do with PIRA/OIRA (nor did rest of my family). He said people were physically and mentally tortured on the Maidstone and that “far more IRA members left the Maidstone than entered it”. I couldn’t blame them.
We’re in a better place today and lets hope that continues and that violence is left in the past, both communities have suffered enough and both should be searching for the truth, not trying to stop the truth just to get back at “them’uns”.
Undoubtedly many if not most of the disappeared were “executed” (nice word that) because they were thought to be informers. Whether or not they were in fact is a moot point, considering that at least one British agent (Stakeknife) was an accuser. But, Jean McConville apart, perhaps the the most dreadful case was that of Columba McVeigh, a 17 year old with special needs whose mother went to the grave without ever having the comfort of a Christian burial. for her youngest child According to one report, not as far as I know contradicted by the IRA, Columba was killed, not for informing, but because he was considered ” a fucking nuisance”. The whole saga of the disappeared is a stain on republicanism and the Provisional republican movement.
Jude criticises the Indo for “implying cowardice and vindictiveness “to the Provos without “any supporting evidence “.He then goes on to speculate why the I R A murdered the Disappeared and proceeds to ascribe possible reasons.Unless he has “supporting evidence” for his assertions,is he not falling into the same trap as the Indo?
Yes MT- they can be afraid of Protestant rule based on the first five decades or so of it. Wouldn’t you be if the shoe was on the other foot? Of course you would. Come on now MT . Say it. I would be afraid of protestan rule if I was a taig. Oops , I mean a papist. Oops again, I mean a catholic. Oops, oops, oops. I just can’t get it right. I mean a nationalist.
“Yes MT- they can be afraid of Protestant rule based on the first five decades or so of it.”
There is no ‘Protestant rule’ of which to be afraid.
Was , MT, was. Not is.
Those who ignore history are fated to repeat it. Something like that, right?
I think some portly bloke said something like this but can’t remember exactly who it was.
“Was , MT, was. Not is. Those who ignore history are fated to repeat it. Something like that, right?”
By your own reasoning, then, if fear of ‘Protestant rule’ in the past is good reason to oppose the UK, then fear of ‘Rome rule’ in the past must be good reason to oppose a ‘united Ireland’.
Ireland will never be ruled by Rome.
Beachguy is right, you are nothing more than a troll that wants to frustrate debate and ruin conversations, you have nothing positive to contribute
“Ireland will never be ruled by Rome.”
I never said it would be.
“Beachguy is right, you are nothing more than a troll that wants to frustrate debate and ruin conversations, you have nothing positive to contribute”
You are nothing more than a troll that wants to frustrate debate and ruin conversations, you have nothing positive to contribute
Well the Influence of the church in the Republic is diminished almost to the point of nil.
Yet the attitude of unionists towards their neighbors in the north remains much like it was when they had the reins of power. There is a refusal to engage. To discuss. There is a longing to retain their supremacy. To place their neighbors in a second class category.
So yes I would opine that there would be legitimate fear by taigs if conditions were to return to the way they were in the failed statelet whereas I don’t believe the same would obtain on the part of non Catholics when there is reunification .
What say you MT.
“Well the Influence of the church in the Republic is diminished almost to the point of nil.”
Apart from its hold on education.
“Yet the attitude of unionists towards their neighbors in the north remains much like it was when they had the reins of power.”
It does?
“There is a refusal to engage. To discuss.”
There is?
.”There is a longing to retain their supremacy.”
There is no ‘supremacy’ to retain, never mind a longing to retain it.
“To place their neighbors in a second class category.”
Have you any evidence for any of these assertions, or is it lazy stereotyping and demonisation?
“So yes I would opine that there would be legitimate fear by taigs if conditions were to return to the way they were in the failed statelet whereas I don’t believe the same would obtain on the part of non Catholics when there is reunification .”
Such a fear would be irrational and, even if rational, it would be impossible for it to materialise.
Tell us MT.
If there was extremely clear evidence that reunification would benefit the vast majority in the north in many, many ways including , but not limited to economics , what would be the sense of what now constitutes the unionist part of the population?
And if the sense would be negative can you explain why?
Please. Can you respond directly to the questions? If not that’s OK. But please no juvenile replies consisting of a few two -three letter words.
“If there was extremely clear evidence that reunification would benefit the vast majority in the north in many, many ways including , but not limited to economics , what would be the sense of what now constitutes the unionist part of the population?”
Probably the same as the sense in the nationalist community when there is evidence that being I’m the UK benefits the vast majority, ie most would still retain their constitutional preference.
“And if the sense would be negative can you explain why”
For the same reason as the sense in the nationalist community is negative to the UK despite the benefits, ie because constitutional preference is, for most, a matter of idenitty.