“We could be discussing the A6 and A5, improvements to our port and the 100 new jobs announced in our area. Instead we have nationalist councillors trying to outdo one another with pointless motions,”
Those are the words of Councillor Graham Warke (DUP). He was reacting to a motion passed by Derry City and Strabane District Council, urging the extension of Presidential voting rights to Irish people not living within the twenty-six counties. He was joined in his objections by Independent Councillor Gary Donnelly, who refused to vote on the motion, claiming the Presidential office was partitionist and represented only the 26-county Free State.
So who’s right – Graham and Gary or those who voted in favour of extending Presidential voting rights?
Part of me agrees with Graham Warke. This motion could be seen as a distraction, when the council should be taking off its coat and working for improved infrastructure and more jobs in the area.
But there is also a logic to the argument for extension of voting rights. If the Irish president represents all of the Irish people, it makes no sense to exclude the sizeable chunk of the Irish people living north of the border. If Presidential voting rights were granted, people in the north might well play a major part in deciding what kind of President Ireland elects. It would also help to stop the rest of the world laughing and rolling their eyes when they hear we recently had a President of Ireland for fourteen years who wasn’t eligible to vote for herself. And consider this alternative history: last time out, thanks to northern votes, Martin McGuinness was elected President. Mightn’t that have produced a sea-change in the thinking of Irish people throughout our island?
At the same time, let’s not lose the run of ourselves. The role of President is to a marked degree an ornamental one. He or she does not have direct input into how the Irish people are governed. You could even argue that getting into a tizzy about not being allowed to vote for the President is like being deprived of the right to see your flag flying over Belfast City Hall, or Stormont, or Leinster House. You can’t eat a flag and you can’t eat a Presidential vote.
Still, you can see why Graham Warke reared away like a jittery stallion from this motion. If you acknowledge that all Irish people should be able to vote for the Irish President, what next? Just like across the water, the abolition of a hereditary House of Lords might raise that dark question: why have a hereditary monarchy? Similarly, if all Irish people get to vote in a presidential election, people might then start posing awkward questions like “Why can’t we vote for Seanad candidates?” or “Shouldn’t northern politicians have speaking rights in the Dail?” And then, of course, the Big One: “Why aren’t all Irish people involved in voting for an all-Ireland parliament?”
So yes, Graham, I see your concern and feel your pain. Perhaps you’re right about the A5 and the A6 and jobs, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest your real concern is with the domino effect.
Still, worry not, Graham. Before any progress can be made in the direction of an all-Ireland Dail, the people of the twenty-six counties will need a gentle or maybe vigorous wake-up call. As things stand, they are in a deep sleep state where Nordies are a pain in the neck and not even real Irish. A hard border could well be the alarm clock that jolts them upright, suddenly aware and maybe horrified that a wall has been built dividing the mutual intersts of north and south.


we have enough parasites here without adding another.
Having a vote in our presidential elections would mean a lot more to me than having a vote in any of the current northern elections including the Stormont assembly never mind the utterly pointless westminster elections.
I would happily give up stormont voting rights for even a vote in presidential elections.
Perhaps Gary is more concerned that he wouldn’t have a job in a real 32 county Ireland whereas in his fantasy island scenario he does.
As for Grahams views, I don’t see why the two should be mutually exclusive.
I would suggest that the DUP perhaps don’t agree with multi tasking in politics, but that couldn’t be the case as I recall all the double jobbing that was done for so long.
Thank you to Derry City and Strabane District Council for sticking up for those of us who do consider ourselves second rate Irish in the 6 counties and not getting distracted by Gary Donnelly and his troglodyte supporters.
“But there is also a logic to the argument for extension of voting rights. If the Irish president represents all of the Irish people, it makes no sense to exclude the sizeable chunk of the Irish people living north of the border.”
But OK to exclude those living elsewhere?
“If Presidential voting rights were granted, people in the north might well play a major part in deciding what kind of President Ireland elects. … And consider this alternative history: last time out, thanks to northern votes, Martin McGuinness was elected President. Mightn’t that have produced a sea-change in the thinking of Irish people throughout our island?”
This is probably the reason why people.in NI can’t vote for the Southern president. They don’t want several hundred thousand extreme nationalists boosting the Provo vote.
“But OK to exclude those living elsewhere? ”
This is a very good point MT,
The US allows its citizens to vote for who leads the American nation no matter where they are in the world.
I would like to see all Irish citizens have a right to apply for a postal vote no matter where they are living in the world.
“This is probably the reason why people.in NI can’t vote for the Southern president. They don’t want several hundred thousand extreme nationalists boosting the Provo vote”
a nice UDA/UVF mentality you have there MT. Every taig must be a provo supporter…..
Spot on Jude – these Unionists just can’t figure their arse from their elbow !!!
Kenny has already ruled out this recommendation from the constitutional convention so it’s not going to happen anytime soon. They simply don’t fancy having Adams as Head of State. A clear example of political interest coming first.
Kenny and his party are unlikely to remain in power until 2018.
I would very much like to have a vote in the next presidential elections.
We need to make sure it happens.
Gary and his mates apparently don’t recognize the “partitionist” states.However it’s amazing how many disso prisoners plead guilty in the courts of these states and thus give them the ultimate recognition.
Like the Provos did?
Was thinking about what Gary Donnelly said about the Irish president being partitionist, when further down the article you mentioned Belfast City Hall.
Earlier this year during the 1916 commemorations Belfast City Councillors invited who we considered to be our president to a function to mark the occasion, but he couldn’t bother his arse recognising the Irishness of anybody in the north.
So yes, give me a presidential vote to make sure the little scumbag will never again be saluted as the No1 Irish citizen!
“Earlier this year during the 1916 commemorations Belfast City Councillors invited who we considered to be our president to a function to mark the occasion, but he couldn’t bother his arse recognising the Irishness of anybody in the north.”
You do realise being Irish isn’t dependent on the southern president recognising you as such?
“You do realise being Irish isn’t dependent on the southern president recognising you as such?”
That’s up to Irish nationalists to decide MT, not Unionists.
It would open their eyes when the realise just how many disenfranchised Irish citizens there are up here if our voices suddenly were given any purpose in our own home nation.
I don’t think it fair to blame Michael D as he has to get permission from the 26 co government to leave the state.
But he got permission to go to a function in England shortly after that!
One always had a snaking suspish, Esteemed Blogmeister, that the reason why only those Irish who are residential south of the Black Sow’s Dyke can get to vote in the Presidential Election is for a different reason altogether.
Give them then a say in the ornamental and the next thing youse Nordies will do is to get uppity and perhaps, even, turn a tad tornamental. Like spreading notions about the Irish nation across oceans, seas and duckponds, that sorta thingy.
As the office has evolved along Darwinian lines there is a clear division between two distinct types: the Do Nothing Uachtaran and the Do Gooding Uachtaran, with the latter strain being the clear Darwinner, going forward. One is in two minds as to whether this is a good or a do gooder thing.
The first strain was exemplified by Hillery (with an e) who opted to mind his own business and to concentrate on the serious matter in hand of lowering his golf handicap. Robinson (a name to pay back the Daughters of Erin/ Mna na hEireann with) who chose to mind everybody else’s business but not at all to the exclusion of her own.
The difference might be likened to the divergence between Milk (the absence of) and an anything but Watery obsession with the Headline Grab, involving no headgear (see under Vatican protocol).
As for the Milk: without doubt the most memorable event in the otherwise nondescript reign of non-error of Dr. Paddy Hillery was that fateful Sunday morning.
The one when two members of the Foley Family (no relation) from Wexford scaled the perimeter fence at the rear of the Aras, and ambled nonchalantly up to the back door of the Presidential Pad, as one tends to do when one finds oneself at breakfast time, bereft of bainne / milk.
They were up for the Match (involving the Model County) and were compelled to sleep in their saloon car in the Phoenix Park, there being no room at any inn in Dublin that All Ireland Final weekend.
Their knock was answered by President Paddy himself who was (a) not at all inappropriately attired for (b) the duty he was about to discharge: in (a) his monogrammed silk dressing gown for (b) the dressing down he was obliged to dole out to two Yellowbellied subjects who had displayed a level of chutzpah upon which not even a chainsaw could have made an impression.
Whatever else it was that President Hillery (now that has a nice ring about it !) was coming down with that Sunday Morning coming d. it was not the m. of human kindness. The pair of cheeky brothers ended up before the Beak in the Dublin District Court. Still, Wexford won.
His successor, the Silk of the Kine, opted to adopt a slightly different approach to her subjectorate: she lit a penny candle in the window of the Master Bedroom of the Aras.
The subliminal message it conveyed in a come-on class of way, was:
-Hi, I’m Kitty Stobling, come dance with me.
Erm, thanks but no thanks: one is already booked.
Last year the satirical Waterford Whispers website ran an article titled “Country Asks Nordies To Keep It Down Up There” as they were trying to sleep maybe there is more truth to this article than the jest would suggest. http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/06/25/country-asks-nordies-to-keep-it-down-up-there/
I saw a piece in one of the East Tyrone weeklies that the provision of interpreters is costing the Southern Health and Social Board over £4000 per day. That should give you a warm glow ,billy. Just think. We could have had dual language signage all throughout the kingdom for buttons.
No Fiosrach, the provos never pleaded “guilty” to the overwhelming extent that the disso thugs and gangsters do .
That’s a valid point. The eagerness to plead guilty suggests they truly don’t understand the history to which they claim to come from. Every time I read about individuals in court they always seem to be pleading guilty. Granted they start off well by ‘not recognising the court’ at their initial court proceedings but at the end they do indeed recognise it, recognise it indeed. A bit of ‘jail history’ wouldn’t go amiss.
The Provo army council issued a standing order advising their members to recognise the court because they noticed that the British judges came down very heavily on people who did not plead.
The IRA may have advised people to recognise the court but I don’t think they ever advised or even ordered their people to plead guilty in the courts. Many of course did plead guilty but it was never a ‘standing order’.
“The IRA may have advised people to recognise the court but I don’t think they ever advised or even ordered their people to plead guilty in the courts. Many of course did plead guilty but it was never a ‘standing order’.”
Which IRA?
Why would they not plead guilty?
Yes they initially refuse to stand up during their early court appearances and are cheered by their groupies.However they then plead guilty a few months later and get their lawyers to plead for leniency.
The conflict is over and the IRA has been stood down for some time now.
These idiots are not the IRA, they are anti IRA and if they are republicans I would be ashamed to call myself one, that is the level of disrepute that they are bringing to those who fought in a conflict not of their making and who’s names they now openly slur to defend their patheticness.
I am trying not to get upset and start insulting and hurling abuse at them and their supporters on this site as Jude doesn’t like it, so I will just say that the contempt I hold for these people is very, very strong.
“The conflict is over and the IRA has been stood down for some time now.
These idiots are not the IRA, they are anti IRA and if they are republicans I would be ashamed to call myself one, that is the level of disrepute that they are bringing to those who fought in a conflict not of their making and who’s names they now openly ”
You do realise there is more than one IRA? The Provos were a breakaway grouping. “The” IRA, if it still exists, is now a purely criminal underground gang.
@Jessica
Jessica, I have to say you sound very much like some Southerners when the PIRA were active….
I disagree with dissident republican politics but I’m not going to hurl abuse and call them names. The truth is they are republicans, many of them were even in the PIRA and served many years in prison.
I have no bone to pick with you Jessica but all this abuse towards dissident republicans (I hate that term btw) just stinks of hypocrisy.
If your a sincere Republican, dissident or not, then I’ll always be respectful towards their arguments/views. Doesn’t mean we’ll always agree but even friends often agree to disagree.
Its ironic too Jessica, that you call these particular republicans names but yet me and you both know if the 1916 Leaders were alive today they would be amongst dissident republicans. Even PIRA founder Billy McKee, a man in his late 90’s, said if he was young again he’d back the dissidents, though he noted the current political/demographic changes and said he’d go where ever it led to Irish Unity the quickest. Bobby Sands family today are definitely dissident republican minded…..
Just think before you type. I talk to dissident republican minded people on twitter, they are none of the insults you typed.
When the PIRA were active?
You’ll be calling the conflict a PIRA terror campaign next Ryan.
“You’ll be calling the conflict a PIRA terror campaign next Ryan”
I honestly fail to see how you came to that conclusion, Jessica. Please explain because I’m honestly curious….
The IRA did not start the conflict Ryan but they did help bring it to an end.
And that is the point. The conflict has ended thanks to republicans.
If a small group of individuals are foolish enough to want to keep physical force republicanism alive, fine, but they cannot operate as if we are still in a conflict situation. We are not.
Add to this how they have behaved and how their own communities are now turning on them.
I shouldn’t have to explain this to you Ryan, you are an intelligent young man.
Perhaps keep off twitter and go talk to the people they are hurting who you wont find on twitter
Dissidents will only tarnish any remaining respect there is for the IRA.
And now you are defending them by comparing them to “when the PIRA was active”.
In my eyes that is very disrespectful.
In my opinion you have been brainwashed by fools and are going down a road that many will not be able to follow.
If Billy McKee genuinely wants the fastest route to Irish unity, then he should be encouraging political maturity and not dissident violence.
Basically revert back to the position he held before he fell out with Gerry Adams.
What is a republican to you Ryan?
Is it just anyone who is anti british and it doesn’t matter to you that they are actually doing more to prevent Irish unity, that they are hurting and even killing people in their own community over their own self serving interests, that they are engaging in criminality or that most are state agents as they are infiltrated to the core and un trustable.
Now, I will accept that a lot of that went on during the conflict, but the conflict is over and almost the entirety of the people in nationalist/republican communities not only do not support what they are doing, but they no longer want these people around and frustration is beginning to swell.
And to clarify, I have no issue with anti Sinn Fein republicans, and I am very much interested in their views.
Many of my own friends have lost faith in Sinn Fein, but not a single one supports the dissidents engaging in violence. Not one.
Now, I also don’t want to engage in hurling abuse with other republicans, but I can tell you now I have had my fill with these idiots who don’t even realise the damage that they are doing.
Let me spell it out for you, there will NEVER be a united Ireland until these groups who engage in violence and criminality are gone.
I don’t want them, almost all of their own communities don’t want them and you can be sure as hell the people in the south don’t want them.
And neither you or I could possibly know what the 1916 Leaders were alive today after 30 years of conflict would choose to keep it going.
In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise. They surrendered to save lives in Dublin did they not. If they would support the dissident stance, why did they surrender to stop the indiscriminate bombing of Dublin?
The aspect I have most respect for among republicans, is not their refusal to surrender, it is not how successful they killed, but the compassion they were able to show when it was needed, and the self sacrifices so many were prepared to make.
Dissidents have none of these qualities, only the negative and they need to go and it will happen.
“What is a republican to you Ryan?”
Read up on the Men/Women of 1916 for that answer Jessica.
“there will NEVER be a united Ireland until these groups who engage in violence and criminality are gone”
I can see why you would say that Jessica but I wouldn’t say it would “NEVER” happen, though I do agree with paramilitary groups, Unionist and Republican, have to go away, including the RUC influence in the PSNI and MI5 on our streets. The likes of Nelson Mandela would disagree with you Jessica, he said republicans should never decommission. Most agree the PIRA still exist and are armed (obviously, as if they were ever going to completely go away with MI5, UDA and UVF still active) but are largely inactive.
“And neither you or I could possibly know what the 1916 Leaders were alive today after 30 years of conflict would choose to keep it going”
Well we know that’s not true….because the Leaders of 1916 made it very clear what their politics was, many even noted nothing other than armed struggle would gain Irish freedom. I think it was Pearse that said engaging in politics would inevitably fail. Though of course they lived in very different times and the political situation is very different today but still, many republicans today live by their principles. The main reason why I disagree with dissidents is because of the major changes that is happening in the North, not simply demographics but changing attitudes in some of the Unionist youth. The simple truth is most dissident republicans refuse to divert from their principles because they consider it a betrayal to the men/women of 1916 and I have a certain amount of respect for them doing that.
Yes, there’s criminal aspects in every group, the biggest criminals in Britain sit in Westminster. Corruption is expected but to tar every dissident republican as some sort of stupid, foolish gangster really is inaccurate. They certainly aren’t like the UDA/UVF.
A moment ago you were defending dissidents, not you are saying paramilitary groups have to go.
Which is it?
So why is it ok in 2016 for a dissident republican paramilitary groups to sell drugs, shoot and kill young fathers and extort money from local businesses all in their own communities and in what way is this difference from the UDA doing it in theirs?
More important, never mind hurling abuse, where do you think this more likely to lead. An independent Ireland or a community turning to the PSNI to get them locked up?
Their time is running out Ryan
Never mind twitter land, what is the feeling on the ground in the communities where they spread their poison?
Answer me that honestly?
I’m sure we all tremble in our boots, Jessica, at the threat of you hurling abuse. And no one will ever call you a republican.
I have no difficulty with that fiosrach.
But it is good that there is clear blue water forming and widening between you anti IRA republicans and those who choose to put Ireland first.
I knew many brave republicans who fought and died with the provos.Ask the survivors what their opinion of the provos is now. All those deaths for a seat in the once outlawed Stormont. The men who died and served long sentences to import arms only for them to be surrendered to the Britishers.
” knew many brave republicans who fought and died with the provos.Ask the survivors what their opinion of the provos is now. All those deaths for a seat in the once outlawed Stormont. The men who died and served long sentences to import arms only for them to be surrendered to the Britishers”
When was Stormont outlawed?
Did these ‘brave’ Provos plant bombs and run away?
“Did these ‘brave’ Provos plant bombs and run away?”
Eh? Should they’ve planted a bomb and then stood there? Now you are just being silly.
“Eh? Should they’ve planted a bomb and then stood there? Now you are just being silly.”
I’ll take that as a yes. Not very brave.
No. They shouldn’t have planted any bomb.
“No. They shouldn’t have planted any bomb”
The British Government and Unionist political parties shouldn’t be oppressing the Irish Nationalist people, maybe then the Provos wouldn’t have MT….expect resistance if you try to oppress people.
“I’ll take that as a yes. Not very brave”
Whilst the British Army raping Kenyan Men and Women is?…..Wear that Poppy with pride…..
“The British Government and Unionist political parties shouldn’t be oppressing the Irish Nationalist people”
They aren’t.
“, maybe then the Provos wouldn’t have MT….expect resistance if you try to oppress people.”
I’m not trying to oppress anyone. And there was no “oppression” in NI that justified murdering people. Hang your head in shame for supporting such heinous crimes.
Whilst the British Army raping Kenyan Men and Women is?…..”
Why do you think anyone raping anyone is brave? How disgusting. I suppose you defend the cover up of Provo rapes too.
“Wear that Poppy with pride….”
The poppy is entirely irrelevant to Provo murderers.
“They aren’t. ”
Yes they did, as you know full well MT. Want me to show you some youtube videos as examples?…..
“I’m not trying to oppress anyone. And there was no “oppression” in NI that justified murdering people. Hang your head in shame for supporting such heinous crimes”
That coming from a poppy wearer is truly laughable MT lol I wont be hanging my head for anything, I’m proud, very proud, of many PIRA members, they are Irish Patriots. You will just have to get use to that MT. You know full well the PIRA would never have existed if it weren’t for Unionists like you and your bigoted mind sets, or as Martin McGuinness put it “Psychological Problems”.
“Why do you think anyone raping anyone is brave? How disgusting. I suppose you defend the cover up of Provo rapes too”
Your the one who wears the Poppy, not me MT. I don’t defend the covering up of any rapes. Though I fail to see how the PIRA offering the alleged victims of rape the choice of having their alleged abusers shot dead is covering up rape….You must be confusing the PIRA with Westminster MP’s. They’re still ruling out a public enquiry into Kincorra…..not a peep from too many Unionist politicians despite it happening in their backyard…..but on the other hand, if a fleg gets demoted to designated days….
“The poppy is entirely irrelevant to Provo murderers”
They weren’t murderers. That’s just another way of saying “don’t bring up the millions of murders/crimes the British Army committed” lol Pathetic MT.
“They aren’t. ”
“Yes they did”
Did? Are we supposed not to notice you switching tenses?
,“I’m not trying to oppress anyone. And there was no “oppression” in NI that justified murdering people. Hang your head in shame for supporting such heinous crimes”
“That coming from a poppy wearer is truly laughable MT lol I wont be hanging my head for anything, I’m proud, very proud, of many PIRA members, they are Irish Patriots.”
Your shamelessness is championing the destruction of families and lives is utterly repugnant. A keyboard warrior spewing hate.
“You will just have to get use to that MT. You know full well the PIRA would never have existed if it weren’t for Unionists like you and your bigoted mind sets, or as Martin McGuinness put it “Psychological Problems”.
I have neither a bigoted mindset nor a psychological problem. I’m not the one who suports murder, violent crime and the infliction of abject misery on individuals and families.
“Why do you think anyone raping anyone is brave? How disgusting. I suppose you defend the cover up of Provo rapes too”
“Your the one who wears the Poppy, not me MT.”
How is that relevant?
“I don’t defend the covering up of any rapes. Though I fail to see how the PIRA offering the alleged victims of rape the choice of having their alleged abusers shot dead is covering up rape….”
Threatening rape victims.with murder if they report the crime is covering up.
“The poppy is entirely irrelevant to Provo murderers”
“They weren’t murderers.”
They weren’t murderers? You’re saying the 1800 Provo killings were lawful? You’re deluded.
“That’s just another way of saying “don’t bring up the millions of murders/crimes the British Army committed” lol Pathetic MT.”
No it isn’t.
” “Eh? Should they’ve planted a bomb and then stood there? Now you are just being silly.”
I’ll take that as a yes. Not very brave.
No. They shouldn’t have planted any bomb.”
You are just being deliberately silly.
I’m not.
“I’m not.”
Now you are just being childish. Please stop.
£4000 pounds a day on interpreters alone, jeeeeez then add on the price of disposable razors for the kids,their broo money ect.that wee presidents gonna have to take a wage cut when they all move south after brexit.
Jessica ,it’s only a handful of people like fiosrach that don’t see the dissos for what they are. Beer bellied loudmouthed bullyboys who hold court in their local pub trying to impress young people who were’nt even born at the height of the troubles.Issuing press statements about their prisoners being on hunger strike whilst they wolfe down mars bars from the prison tuck shop and are fatter than before they entered jail.Stealing money sent to their prisoners by gullible yanks and being so blatant about it that even erstwhile supporters desert them.Insulting in the most vile mannerthe likes of Fr Gary Donegan who they had been asking for help a few hours previously.Total scum the lot of them.
J”essica ,it’s only a handful of people like fiosrach that don’t see the dissos for what they are. Beer bellied loudmouthed bullyboys who hold court in their local pub trying to impress young people who were’nt even born at the height of the troubles.Issuing press statements about their prisoners being on hunger strike whilst they wolfe down mars bars from the prison tuck shop and are fatter than before they entered jail.Stealing money sent to their prisoners by gullible yanks and being so blatant about it that even erstwhile supporters desert them.Insulting in the most vile mannerthe likes of Fr Gary Donegan who they had been asking for help a few hours previously.Total scum the lot of them.”
Doesn’t sound much different to the Provos.
I agree completely Michael.
Unfortunately I know their type only too well
As soon as the conflict was over, they went out and bought their uniforms.
“So who’s right – Graham and Gary or those who voted in favour of extending Presidential voting rights?”
Both are wrong. Gary is a Republican I like and to a certain extent admire but his politics is mostly rooted in the 19th century and will get Republicanism no where but on the path to needless violence. Irish Unity is much more likely to occur now days due to skilled and peaceful politics.
Graham opposes this motion because Graham would rather no Irish people even lived in the North, never mind them getting to vote for their President. In the DUP’s eyes, an expression of Irish culture is a dilution of “Britishness”, though if you were to ask the likes of genius singer Elton John he would say there is nothing British about the DUP. As Jude noted, Graham fears this will lead to a domino effect.
“You can’t eat a flag and you can’t eat a Presidential vote”
True, you cant eat a flag but the reality is these things are important. Symbolism is important. Politics is important. To pretend none of these things are important is foolish. The reality is tens of millions, maybe even billions, of people have suffered, starved and died for the flag of their nation throughout History. During WW2 the Soviet Regime under Stalin noticed how Russian Nationalist propaganda rose morale amongst soldiers rather than Socialist ideals. They went to their deaths for “Mother Russia”, not for their bread and butter.
Politics is important here in Ireland too. Irish citizens in the North being able to vote for their President might not mean much politically but its powerful (and much needed) in a symbolic sense. Daithi McKay, who recently left SF, said in the Belfast Telegraph this week that its time for the Irish Tricolour to get official recognition in the North. So far its been a one way street when it comes to symbols/flags here and its deeply in favour of a Unionist population that will soon be a minority. Daithi says there’s no excuse for SF/SDLP majority councils not to act, regardless of Unionist opposition (which will always be there anyway).
We have the ridiculous situation here in Ireland that the Captain of the Irish Rugby Team (Rory Best) cant even vote for the Irish President, nor can some other key Irish Rugby players. James McClean, the top goal scorer for the ROI team so far in this World Cup Qualifying campaign and won a crucial qualifier for us in Austria cant vote for the Irish President either. Martin O’Neill, the Manager of the ROI team, cant vote for the Irish President either despite him being born and grew up in Derry. A former Irish President herself, Mary McAleese, could not even vote for herself despite being elected twice to be Irish President. In 2008, Tyrone won the All Ireland Senior Football finals. Not one in that team could vote for their president.
I could go on but I mean this is literally laughable. Its Ok for James McClean to score 3 goals for the South this World Cup Qualifying Campaign but you wont let him vote? Its OK for Dana to win the Eurovision song contest for Ireland but she cant get to vote for her President either? Its OK for Rory Best to lead Ireland to a famous win over New Zealand (not to mention play a key part in Six Nation Championship wins) but he cant cast a vote for the Irish President? Again, I could go on all night.
The truth is the President vote being extended to the North IS important, very important. The fact FG/FF wont extend it (despite it being within their power) is disgraceful. Forget about Unionism, pandering to them wont bring change but more division. I’m glad Derry Council passed the motion and I hope other councils do the same. The truth is Irish people in the North deserve to be able to vote for their President, to have their culture expressed on Government buildings and to have their national flag flown. This one way street has to stop.
“Both are wrong. Gary is a Republican I like and to a certain extent admire but his politics is mostly rooted in the 19th century and will get Republicanism no where but on the path to needless violence.”
Same as always.
“Irish Unity is much more likely to occur now days due to skilled and peaceful politics.”
That was always the case.
“The reality is tens of millions, maybe even billions, of people have suffered, starved and died for the flag of their nation throughout History. During WW2 the Soviet Regime under Stalin noticed how Russian Nationalist propaganda rose morale amongst soldiers rather than Socialist ideals. They went to their deaths for “Mother Russia”, not for their bread and butter.”
They weren’t dying for a flag! They were dying for their people.
“We have the ridiculous situation here in Ireland that the Captain of the Irish Rugby Team (Rory Best) cant even vote for the Irish President, nor can some other key Irish Rugby players.”
Why is that ridiculous? The Irish rugby team is all-Ireland.
“James McClean, the top goal scorer for the ROI team so far in this World Cup Qualifying campaign and won a crucial qualifier for us in Austria cant vote for the Irish President either. Martin O’Neill, the Manager of the ROI team, cant vote for the Irish President either despite him being born and grew up in Derry.”
None of the Southern Irish team can as they all live in England or Scotland.
“I could go on but I mean this is literally laughable. Its Ok for James McClean to score 3 goals for the South this World Cup Qualifying Campaign but you wont let him vote?”
They didn’t let Robbie Keane vote either.
The truth is Irish people in the North deserve to be able to vote for their President, to have their culture expressed on Government buildings and to have their national flag flown.”
Why do they deserve it?
“That was always the case”
Like in 1912 MT?…..or when Unionists gerrymandered?….remind us again who brought the gun into Irish politics? (and no MT, it wasn’t “them’uns”)
“They weren’t dying for a flag! They were dying for their people”
Yes, I’m sure their flags meant nothing to them MT….I’m sure you took the side of SF/SDLP/Alliance during the Fleg protests…..after all, its just a flag….
“Why is that ridiculous? The Irish rugby team is all-Ireland”
err….its ridiculous because they’re representing the national side of Ireland…but yet they cant vote for their President?…..do keep up MT.
“None of the Southern Irish team can as they all live in England or Scotland”
They can if they return home. Horgan and Boyle don’t live in England/Scotland….There’s no such thing as “Southern Irish” or “Northern Irish”. There’s just Irish.
“They didn’t let Robbie Keane vote either”
That’s irrelevant, plus Robbie could’ve simply returned to home to Dublin and voted…..so strictly speaking he did have the vote.
“Why do they deserve it?”
Because we’re Irish.
“Like in 1912 MT?…”
No. In 1912 constitutional nationalists were in the ascendant and were on the verge of achieving their goal.
“..or when Unionists gerrymandered?….”
No.
“remind us again who brought the gun into Irish politics? (and no MT, it wasn’t “them’uns”)”
The United Irishmen?
“Yes, I’m sure their flags meant nothing to them MT…”
Whether or not their flags meant something or nothing is irrelevant. They weren’t dying for a flag. The idea is ridiculous.
“.I’m sure you took the side of SF/SDLP/Alliance during the Fleg protests…..after all, its just a flag….”
Yep. Fully opposed the flag protests.
“err….its ridiculous because they’re representing the national side of Ireland…but yet they cant vote for their President?…..do keep up MT.”
Yes, it’s the national team of Ireland: not the Republic.
“None of the Southern Irish team can as they all live in England or Scotland”
“They can if they return home. Horgan and Boyle don’t live in England/Scotland….There’s no such thing as “Southern Irish” or “Northern Irish”. There’s just Irish.”
And so can McClean if he returns to live in the South.
“They didn’t let Robbie Keane vote either”
“That’s irrelevant, plus Robbie could’ve simply returned to home to Dublin and voted…..so strictly speaking he did have the vote.”
How is it irrelevant? And he couldn’t return home to vote unless he was breaking the law by registering at an address he didn’t live at.
“Why do they deserve it?”
Because we’re Irish. And why does being Irish mean you deserve to vote for the president of a state you don’t live in or have your ‘culture’ expressed on Government buildings? Nobody else does.
“No. In 1912 constitutional nationalists were in the ascendant and were on the verge of achieving their goal”
Exactly, remind us again who took up arms and threatened mass murder if democracy went ahead? Yep, Unionists.
“No.”
Oh yes, Unionists gerrymandered. I’ll post a wee education video for ya below MT. You could do with some….
“The United Irishmen?”
I know Unionists go back to 1690 MT but come a wee bit closer to 1912….no, Unionists introduced violence into Irish politics around this time, a revolt against democracy. And yes, the very first to bring violence to Ireland were Scottish/English planters during the Plantation of Ulster, that was before 1690.
“Whether or not their flags meant something or nothing is irrelevant. They weren’t dying for a flag. The idea is ridiculous”
National flags are irrelevant in war?….are you serious MT? lol that’s a cracker, even for you. You have obviously never met an American. Many died simply in the act of rising the American flag and got the Medal of Honour for doing so. I believe they even made a historic statue and movie based on this act by US soldiers during WW2 in their fight against Japan….but sure, flags don’t mean anything according to MT….
“Yep. Fully opposed the flag protests”
Good man MT.
“Yes, it’s the national team of Ireland: not the Republic”
The Irish President is the President for all Irish citizens, including in the North.
“And so can McClean if he returns to live in the South”
When has James McClean ever lived in the South? He was born and raised in Derry? Or is this you having a little dig, in other words: Move down South?
“How is it irrelevant? And he couldn’t return home to vote unless he was breaking the law by registering at an address he didn’t live at”
It is irrelevant because Robbie Keane is from Dublin. People cant have multiple homes? especially one as wealthy as Robbie Keane? Robbie Keane could’ve returned home and voted, stop being silly MT.
“Because we’re Irish. And why does being Irish mean you deserve to vote for the president of a state you don’t live in or have your ‘culture’ expressed on Government buildings? Nobody else does”
Being I’m an Irish citizen, President Higgins is my President. This is contested territory, soon enough the majority of its citizens will be Irish Nationalist in outlook, its only right that our culture and flag are flown of Government buildings. I don’t care what anyone else does.
“Exactly, remind us again who took up arms and threatened mass murder if democracy went ahead?”
Nobody.
“Oh yes, Unionists gerrymandered. I’ll post a wee education video for ya below MT. You could do with some….”
But you asked if gerrymandering was like ‘Irish unity’ always being much more likely to occur ‘now days’ due to skilled and peaceful politics. It isn’t.
“I know Unionists go back to 1690 MT but come a wee bit closer to 1912….no, Unionists introduced violence into Irish politics around this time, a revolt against democracy.”
It wasn’t against democracy. And how is this relevant to ‘Irish unity’ being more likely to occur through skilful and peaceful politics?
“And yes, the very first to bring violence to Ireland were Scottish/English planters during the Plantation of Ulster, that was before 1690.”
No they weren’t. What a stupid thing to say.
“National flags are irrelevant in war?”
Who said that?
“Many died simply in the act of rising the American flag and got the Medal of Honour for doing so.”
You do realise a flag is only a symbol?
“I believe they even made a historic statue and movie based on this act by US soldiers during WW2 in their fight against Japan….but sure, flags don’t mean anything according to MT….”
When did I say flags don’t mean anything? Why are you making things up?
“The Irish President is the President for all Irish citizens, including in the North.”
That doesn’t make the Irish rugby team a team only for Southern citizens. It’d an all-Ireland team.
“When has James McClean ever lived in the South?”
I’ve no idea.
” He was born and raised in Derry?”
And how does that stop him moving South?
” Or is this you having a little dig, in other words: Move down South?”
If he wants to vote for the Southern president he can move to Dublin just as you suggested Keane should. Why differentiate?
“It is irrelevant because Robbie Keane is from Dublin.”
It doesn’t matter where he’s “from”. If he doesn’t live there he doesn’t get to vote there.
“People cant have multiple homes? especially one as wealthy as Robbie Keane? Robbie Keane could’ve returned home and voted, stop being silly MT.”
Well then there’s nothing to stop McClean having multiple homes either, buying one in Dublin and registering to vote, if that is permitted.
“Being I’m an Irish citizen, President Higgins is my President.”
I’m delighted for you, but you don’t live in the state, just like Robbie Keane doesn’t.
“This is contested territory, soon enough the majority of its citizens will be Irish Nationalist in outlook, its only right that our culture and flag are flown of Government buildings. I don’t care what anyone else does.”
How do you fly a culture from a Government building? As for the Southern flag it is flown on Southern government buildings. Why would it be flown on government buildings in another state?
“That’s up to Irish nationalists to decide MT, not Unionists.”
And you’re saying Irish nationalists have decided that their Irishness is dependent on the Southern president’s recognition?
Wow. How bizarre. Self-esteem must be pretty low among Irish nationalists.
self esteem must be pretty low among irish nationalists..with having nothing but the coalition in stormont to vote for while they feather their own nests what else could you expect.some people worried about being given a vote to elect life long professional parasites as president shows their mentality.
“And you’re saying Irish nationalists have decided that their Irishness is dependent on the Southern president’s recognition?”
No, but we should have the right to vote for our President and I know one day soon we will but its better coming sooner rather than later.
“Wow. How bizarre. Self-esteem must be pretty low among Irish nationalists”
You wish. Don’t worry MT, we’re not going to go apesh*t like some people did when the BBC didn’t shortlist someone from the North for their Sports Personality of the Year Prize….our self esteem has never reached those depth’s…..poor George from the Shankill hogged the line on Nolan for over 20 minutes….
“No”
Tell Sherdy. He needs the Southern president’s recognition in order to be Irish.
“Wow. How bizarre. Self-esteem must be pretty low among Irish nationalists”
“You wish. Don’t worry MT, we’re not going to go apesh*t like some people did when the BBC didn’t shortlist someone from the North for their Sports Personality of the Year Prize….our self esteem has never reached those depth’s…..poor George from the Shankill hogged the line on Nolan for over 20 minutes….”
If you require the approval of someone for your own identity that is an obvious case of low self-esteem.
“Tell Sherdy. He needs the Southern president’s recognition in order to be Irish”
I doubt he meant it like that, I think that’s just your trolling again MT.
” if you require the approval of someone for your own identity that is an obvious case of low self-esteem”
You could be a calming and progressive force in the DUP MT, why don’t you join? You should preach that loud and clear to fellow Unionists. There’s no need to see a Union flag every 3 minutes or to panic when someone from the North doesn’t get into a BBC shortlist…..even former England Striker Gary Lineker called the outrage “ridiculous”…..
“I doubt he meant it like that”
Why do you think he said it, then?
“You could be a calming and progressive force in the DUP MT, why don’t you join?”
I don’t support them and I’ve no interest in joining any party.
“There’s no need to see a Union flag every 3 minutes or to panic when someone from the North doesn’t get into a BBC shortlist. ”
I never said there was. Why are you trying to change the subject?
“a nice UDA/UVF mentality you have there MT. Every taig must be a provo supporter….”
That makes no sense.
“That makes no sense”
Oh it makes perfect sense MT. The UVF/UDA regarded every Catholic as a Republican (well the fact they were Catholic was a sin in their book also, same went for many in political Unionism) hence why they murdered so many.
Your comment had the same mentality. You basically said the South doesn’t want “several HUNDRED THOUSAND extreme nationalists” added to their electorate. So hundreds of thousands of nationalists are extremists, MT?….
“Oh it makes perfect sense MT. The UVF/UDA regarded every Catholic as a Republican (well the fact they were Catholic was a sin in their book also, same went for many in political Unionism) hence why they murdered so many.”
I would not agree Ryan.
The conflict started over Catholics seeking civil liberties and equality which threatened the unionist hold over their state.
The leaders of political unionism whipped their people into a frenzy, claiming the IRA were about to resurface – which has been proven and accepted was inaccurate.
The IRA had chosen to pursue peaceful politics looking towards communism and were supporting movements such as NICRA instead.
Unionists feared this more than they feared the IRA. Paisley was taking centre stage and was already steeped in para militarism with his Ulster Protestant Volunteers to which the UUP felt politically threatened and so rebirthed their own baby, the UVF through their point of contact billy spence through whom funding is believed to have been directed to help – as backed up by claims by his brother gusty. The UUP I believe knew this was wrong but feared losing political control to Paisley more than preventing violence against Catholics who they knew had no IRA to defend them.
As tensions continued to rise, stoked by the leaders of unionism, not surprisingly the 100% unionist b specials and RUC were influenced and started killing catholics.
There is no evidence that they did no because they were considered republican. It was pure hatred and no different to the KKK stirring up hatred of blacks in the US resulting in a police force 100% consistent of white supremacists ending up killing innocent black people. Hardly surprising.
The unionist leaders were behaving like the KKK at the time and the british state both supported and protected them and still are.
Samuel Devenny was no threat to the state and his murder by the RUC in April 1969 was no different to a white supremacist police force killing a black man in the US.
When the british army came over in 1969, it was to protect catholics from this unionist hatred.
They were ill prepared for the venom and hatred they found and confused that it was coming from the british side waving their union flags as they marched to remove catholics. The army found themselves in the middle and when caught in the cross fire being attacked from both sides in street riots, they chose sides and put catholic communities under military curfew leading to more state murders of innocent catholics and the conflict was unavoidable. Britain have to go from this point on.
By the time the PIRA were on the offence, their ranks swelling from the actions of the british army, the MRF was set loose and worked with loyalist paramilitaries as one force.
The MRF operated out of uniform and were given a free reign to do whatever they liked by the british state including kill. It was they who came up with the strategy to kill innocent catholics as a means of turning the community against the IRA. It had the opposite effect.
I do not believe the reason loyalists deliberately killed so many innocent catholics was because they believed they were republican and while they were taught to dislike catholics by the political leadership of unionism, in schools and at the dinner tables over many generations, the real reason is because they were instructed to do so by the british state forces and it was easier.
The conflict is over and it is more vital than ever that the truth comes out about what happened here.
In 2014, the british state decided to protect the names of the RUC involved in the murder of Samuel Devenny for another 8 years.
Why?
Is the actions of dissident republicans helping with this cause or hindering it?
How important do you think it is that this truth comes out Ryan?
Why is Dublin who knows the truth not doing anything to assist us and helping them cover it up?
wanting to vote a president in should be the least of peoples worries,when things now are the same as when we were under unionist rule,in some areas they were even better off than they are now.these headline grabbers are only used as distractions by the coalition in stormont for cover for the cuts they are going to impose on the people,in simple terms;ruling by fooling;
It is not about voting a president in billy, it is about the enfranchisement of Irish people living in Ireland and the consequences that will have going forward.
going forward..people were blocked in the day to let orangemen walk past ardoyne to get the bus to derry to parade.the continuity ruc facilitated them.stormonts still there.the brits are still here.going forward,dont be holding yer breath waiting going forward.
I was there at garvaghy when they battoned and trailed my friends off the road billy. I know
But the traitors are in Dublin
Continuity RUC ! Like it ,billy
And this is the mentality that you have respect for Ryan?
If that is the best you have, im afraid I am going to have to side with the PSNI.
“Oh it makes perfect sense MT.”
It doesn’t.
“The UVF/UDA regarded every Catholic as a Republican (well the fact they were Catholic was a sin in their book also, same went for many in political Unionism) hence why they murdered so many.”
Did they? How is this relevant?
“Your comment had the same mentality.”
No it didn’t.
“You basically said the South doesn’t want “several HUNDRED THOUSAND extreme nationalists” added to their electorate. So hundreds of thousands of nationalists are extremists, MT?….”
Well, nearly 200,000 vote for the Provos.
There is no political party called the Provos.
200,000 people therefore didn’t vote for them.
“There is no political party called the Provos.
200,000 people therefore didn’t vote for them.”
Zzzzzzzz
No political party called the Tories, the Stoops, the DUPes, the pups,
I think the point you are missing MT, is that not everyone agrees with you that Sinn Fein = the provos
I get that you don’t see any difference and nothing anyone here could say would convince you otherwise.
To try is about as useful as trying to convince you that Gerry Adams was Santa Claus
“I think the point you are missing MT, is that not everyone agrees with you that Sinn Fein = the provos”
That’s odd. Do they think they’re Stickies? Dissidents?
The ignorance here never fails to amaze.
The provos no longer exist and Sinn Fein remains the only political party on this island to have achieved a democratic mandate to govern over all 32 counties and their aim is to achieve this once again, even if it is initially over 2 separate jurisdictions
How else can partition be removed except by the ONLY party that isn’t simply paying lip service to supporting Irish unity?
We should all fully support them in this endeavour
“The provos no longer exist”
I’m afraid they do, though thankfully only in political form since their terror wing dissolved (we hope).
” and Sinn Fein remains the only political party on this island to have achieved a democratic mandate to govern over all 32 counties and their aim is to achieve this once again, even if it is initially over 2 separate jurisdictions”
PSF hasn’t achieved a democratic mandate to govern over all 32 counties. They have a mandate to.govern in coalition only in the North and no mandate to govern in the South.
“How else can partition be removed except by the ONLY party that isn’t simply paying lip service to supporting Irish unity?”
The only way is by referendum.
the chief constable of the police who you 100% fully support says he has intelligence they do still exist do you not believe his word.partition has been dealt with in the gfa.
The brains behind the IRA are now in Sinn Fein or supportive of the Sinn Fein peace strategy billy, they are committed to achieving their aims peacefully through politics.
It is my opinion that they have went to considerable lengths to respect the fact that they have stood down without achieving their aims, and took a lot of one sided scrutiny and abusive bias on the chin rather than abandon the rank and file who struggle the most with the situation.
In my opinion, they have shown considerable patience and tolerance against deliberate attempts by unionism and the southern establishment to cause division among their ranks and cause dissention and a return to violence in our communities so that the british could step in and obtain the victory over an IRA they desperately want. I think they are very frustrated that this has not happened to date and it would be a disaster for republicanism if it happened.
This is why all paramilitaries today remain so heavily infiltrated and the PSNI is so ineffective in dealing with them.
It is my opinion that the current chief constable is less than comfortable with this – yes, not least because it puts the life of his officers on the front firing line. Why no one in the media and journalistic world chooses to press him on it, is a matter for them.
Betrayal has always been rife in Irelands struggle for freedom and that is unlikely to change.
On more than one occasion I have turned my back on Sinn Fein as just about all of my close friends have, most of which have given up interest in Irish unity or politics here, but in the end I have always eventually found method to their madness and therefore I just do not accept that they have abandoned us.
As for partition being dealt with in the gfa.
I agree. It is very limited, only allowing the north to merge into the south which unionists do not want and the southern establishment has gone to such lengths to make sure a majority of nationalists in the north would not want to either.
If you are looking for betrayal billy, the real enemy is closer to home and in Dublin.
I fully support peaceful means, If I did not, I would consider that the people who took part in the Easter rising had the right idea. Any return to conflict over british occupation in Ireland has to take place in Dublin.
Having seen the state of the Irish army and the embarrassment of the soldier at the front fainting during the Easter commemoration display, having to stand still for a few hours being too much for them, I don’t think they would make much opposition and they would probably just run to the British for help.
“The provos” is the shortened term used to refer to the Provisional Irish Republican Army in usual parlance.
They were never a political party.
200,000 people never voted for them.
The others names are used to refer to political parties, some are even abbreviations the parties themselves use.
The party calling itself Sinn Fein broke away from ‘official Sinn Fein’ as part of the split that also involved the formation of the Provisional IRA.The current party calling itself Sinn Fein was originally referred to as Provisional Sinn Fein and the party from which it broke away was Official Sinn Fein. Together PSF and PIRA were the Provisional Republican Movement.
When Official SF became the Workers Party and PSF gradually became widely known simply as SF.
The party calling itself SF continues today and stands for election today. It’s terror wing has allegedly dissolved and so the political wing is now the only remaining manifestation of the PRM is the party. That’s who I’m referring to as the Provos.
Absolutely incredible either that you didn’t know this or didn’t understand it.
Or maybe you do know and understand but don’t like to be reminded of SF’s gory history.
“The provos” in modern parlance is the PIRA.
“The Shinners” in modern parlance is Sinn Fein.
Nobody votes for “the provos”
Plenty vote for Sinn Fein.
Glad we’ve cleared that up.
We both know you knew who I was referring to.
Did I prick your conscience?
I know how you like to be factually correct.
I was merely lending a helping hand.
You’re welcome.
Clearly you’re uncomfortable with the facts.
What you are omitting though MT, is the reason there was a split was because the Dublin leadership was unable to do anything to stop the terror campaign started by unionists in 1966, in which the UVF, RUC and B Specials were indiscriminately killing Catholics and Unionist elected representatives continued encouraging large numbers onto the streets to attack the civil rights movement. Catholic areas were under nightly attack from the UVF in 1969 who were also planting bombs and destroying infrastructure while claiming it was the IRA to support the claims that the unionist leaders had been making about the IRA resurging which were lies, the catholic communities were crying out for help to both the IRA, the Irish and British Governments. The Irish Army were afraid to take on britain and the IRA had already started the process of disbandment approved in 1965 and were ill equipped to defend catholic areas. The Irish state opted to setup field hospitals around the border and have the army on stand by to go in and help get catholics out. Thousands of families lost their homes including members of my own family who had brothers and sisters displaced between wicklow and some sent to england.
The continued attacks by unionists led to the battle of the bogside and a resurgence of the desire to remove british rule in Ireland. The RIC terror campaign continued with them shooting dead another 8 Catholics and injuring over 1 hundred with bullet wounds.
By this stage it was clear the IRA were unfit to protect the catholic communities from the sustained unionist terror campaign and a provisional leadership split to take over the responsibility in December 1969 but initially they had very little membership and resources.
At the same time, January 1970, the UVF began bombing Catholic-owned businesses in Protestant areas of Belfast. It issued a statement vowing to “remove republican elements from loyalist areas” and stop them “reaping financial benefit therefrom”. During 1970, 42 Catholic-owned licensed premises in Protestant areas were bombed, mainly by the UVF.
By March 1970 they started attacking politicians opposing the unionist terror campaign and exploded a bomb at the home of Nationalist Party MP Austin Currie and later fired shots through the living room window of his house while he and his wife and children were inside.
As the unionist terror campaign continued into 1070, Ian Freeland threatened that the british army would shoot dead anyone throwing petrol bombs and had started to turn on the catholic community and side with unionists who were 100% of the RUC and B-Specials which became the UDR.
By the summer marching season the orange order had provided their usual tuppence worth and in June 1970 after an orange march loyalists began an incursion into the Catholic Short Strand enclave of east Belfast. This was the first real action by the PIRA who took up sniping positions in the grounds of St Matthew’s Catholic Church and engaged in a prolonged gun battle with the Loyalists driving them back. The british army stood by and did nothing to stop the loyalist attacks.
This is how the PIRA came into existence and I am very grateful that they did MT.
It is time unionism acknowledge their role in starting the conflict here and stopped trying to demonise republicans.
“the terror campaign started by unionists in 1966, in which the UVF, RUC and B Specials were indiscriminately killing Catholics”
The 1966 terror campaign was shortlived and over by the year thanks to successful RUC prosecutions.
“and Unionist elected representatives continued encouraging large numbers onto the streets to attack the civil rights movement.”
What elected representatives were these?
“Catholic areas were under nightly attack from the UVF in 1969”
How do you know it was the UVF? And protestant areas were also under attack from Catholics. That’s what started the riots that ended up with Bombay Street attacked and the Army deployed.
“the IRA had already started the process of disbandment approved in 1965”
The IRA hadn’t started a process of disbandment and no such process was approved in 1965.
“The continued attacks by unionists led to the battle of the bogside”
Actually the Battle of the Bogside began when Catholics attacked an Apprentice Boys parade.
“June 1970 after an orange march loyalists began an incursion into the Catholic Short Strand enclave of east Belfast. This was the first real action by the PIRA who took up sniping positions in the grounds of St Matthew’s Catholic Church and engaged in a prolonged gun battle with the Loyalists driving them back. The british army stood by and did nothing to stop the loyalist attacks.”
That’s one side of the story. The other is that the Orange march was attacked by Catholics. And the Army stood by and did nothing to stop the nationalist attacks either.
“This is how the PIRA came into existence.”
The PIRA was in existence seven months before the Short Strand incident.
“The 1966 terror campaign was shortlived and over by the year thanks to successful RUC prosecutions. ”
The RUC officers who killed Samuel Devenny where protected for another 8 years in 2014 by the current british administration,
It was the RUC who were the sharp end of the stick in the unionist terror campaign that started the troubles.
The truth is still being covered up to this day and unionism has yet to acknowledge its roll in the conflict.
I have written more about it all here with references.
http://www.judecollins.com/2015/12/truth-justice-and-reconciliation-part-3-by-jessica-mcgrann/
“The 1966 terror campaign was shortlived and over by the year thanks to successful RUC prosecutions. ”
“The RUC officers who killed Samuel Devenny where protected for another 8 years in 2014 by the current british administration, It was the RUC who were the sharp end of the stick in the unionist terror campaign that started the troubles The truth is still being covered up to this day and unionism has yet to acknowledge its roll in the conflict.”
I’m afraid that doesn’t alter the fact that the 1966 UVF campaign was over in a matter of.months thanks to swift RUC prosecutions.
.
“I’m afraid that doesn’t alter the fact that the 1966 UVF campaign was over in a matter of.months thanks to swift RUC prosecutions.”
The unionist terror campaign wasn’t though, it was only warming up in 1966.
It didn’t really kick off until 1969.
And it doesn’t alter the fact that the RUC were the initial murderers, who committed what many consider to be the first killings of the conflict and that today in 2016 the british state are still protecting their known murderers all with the full support and backing of the Dublin establishment.
The unionist terror campaign wasn’t though, it was only warming up in 1966. It didn’t really kick off until 1969.”
So you were wrong to refer to “the terror campaign started by unionists in 1966, in which the UVF, RUC and B Specials were indiscriminately killing Catholics”.
There was no unionist terror campaign warming up in 1966. There was a shortlived ‘hot’ UVF campaign that lasted a matter of.months.
I wish that were true MT, but the unionist terror campaign that started in 1966, unfortunately did not end with the UVF arrests you refer to and unionism was very much indeed only warming up in 1966.
It was unionist bigotry and sectarian hatred that made them attack the civil rights movement and bring their followers onto the streets and by 1969 the RUC started the killings that led to conflict.
I believe these are pretty much globally accepted historic facts MT.
And come to think of it, I don’t believe you are even correct to claim that the UVF terror campaign which started in 1966 only lasted a few months. Gusty Spence who was one of those arrested was still active from behind bars and later very much a prominent part of the UVF right to its ceasefire in the 90s. And then if it ended in 1966 after a few short months as you claim, how was it able to engage in its bombing campaign in 1969. Doesn’t really attack up now does it?
Indeed I don’t believe you have any facts correct in relation to what started the conflict here whatsoever MT.
You are not ashamed of unionisms past are you MT?
You are very much in denial of a lot of accepted facts.
What are your views on the state protecting and withholding the names of the RUC officers who murdered Samuel Devenny until after the decade of centenaries?
“I wish that were true MT, but the unionist terror campaign that started in 1966, unfortunately did not end with the UVF arrests you refer to and unionism was very much indeed only warming up in 1966.”
You’re wrong. The 1966 campaign was shortlived and unconnected to events in 1969.
“It was unionist bigotry and sectarian hatred that made them attack the civil rights movement and bring their followers onto the streets and by 1969 the RUC started the killings that led to conflict.”
That’s a very simplistic explanation. Not one that would stand up to any academic scrutiny..
You still haven’t stated which elected representatives encouraged people on to attack civil rights marches.
“I believe these are pretty much globally accepted historic facts MT.”
Quote me some published histories that back up your narrative, then.
“And come to think of it, I don’t believe you are even correct to claim that the UVF terror campaign which started in 1966 only lasted a few months. Gusty Spence who was one of those arrested was still active from behind bars and later very much a prominent part of the UVF right to its ceasefire in the 90s. And then if it ended in 1966 after a few short months as you claim, how was it able to engage in its bombing campaign in 1969. Doesn’t really attack up now does it?”
It does. The 1969 bombs were a separate campaign.
“Indeed I don’t believe you have any facts correct in relation to what started the conflict here whatsoever MT.”
What facts are incorrect?
“You are not ashamed of unionisms past are you MT?”
Why would I be ashamed of things for which I wasn’t responsible? Are you?
“You are very much in denial of a lot of accepted facts.”
I’m not in denial of any accepted facts, never mind a lot of then.
“What are your views on the state protecting and withholding the names of the RUC officers who murdered Samuel Devenny until after the decade of centenaries?”
I don’t know anything about it, nor do we know if Devenney was murdered, but unlike you I support justice and oppose cover-ups.
What do you think of the Provos covering up their crimes?
The unionist campaign that started in 1966 was not short-lived and did not stop with the arrest of drunken UVF members who expressed regret at ever coming under the influence of Ian Paisley. He may not have been an elected representative until 1970 but was a well known firebrand, a unionist leader and a political giant within unionism all throughout the conflict. The UUP were linked to the UVF return through Gusty Spences own words and were elected unionist representatives.
As for academic scrutiny
I would very much love to see any sort of scrutiny over the behaviour of unionism around that time.
Unionists today still cannot accept the truth as it is an ugly reality to swallow, and they have never had to with the british state covering their tracks and still denying access to evidence to this day.
“It does. The 1969 bombs were a separate campaign. ”
Oh well then… there we have it.
You will be saying it was just a few bad apples next.
“Why would I be ashamed of things for which I wasn’t responsible? Are you? ”
Yes. There are many things I am not responsible for but that I am ashamed off.
I am ashamed of the Dublin government for its neglect of its citizens not only here in the north.
I was both embarrassed and ashamed of our Taoiseach’s lacklustre and disingenuous performance in attendance at the Easter Rising centenary commemorations.
I was embarrassed and ashamed of his performance at the EU meeting where he basically stood up and told the heads of state that Ireland was struggling to meet renewable energy targets because we have a lot of cows in Ireland.
I was ashamed when our President refused to attend a dinner in Belfast City hall over not having approval from the DUP even though the leadership is a joint office and was such a heavy snub to nationalists here.
There are too many things I am ashamed off that are not my responsibility or even in my control.
It is quite clear to me that unionists are not ashamed of what is done in their name and are perfectly comfortable in putting it down to nuances when it suits.
“The unionist campaign that started in 1966 was not short-lived and did not stop with the arrest of drunken UVF members who expressed regret at ever coming under the influence of Ian Paisley. He may not have been an elected representative until 1970 but was a well known firebrand, a unionist leader and a political giant within unionism all throughout the conflict.”
This looks like an admission that you told lies when you said unionist elected representives called on people to attack civil rights marches.
Don’t you ever ask yourself why you need to lie to make your point?
“The UUP were linked to the UVF return through Gusty Spences own words and were elected unionist representatives.”
The UVF wasn’t ‘linked’ to the UUP and the UVF weren’t elected representatives.
“As for academic scrutiny
I would very much love to see any sort of scrutiny over the behaviour of unionism around that time.”
There have been plenty of academic studies and books published on the Troubles. Quote me a few that support your thesis that ‘it was all unionists’ fault’.
“You will be saying it was just a few bad apples next.”
Everyone in the UVF by definition was a bad apple.
I am not at all surprised you would see it that way MT.
Of course, your persistent claims that the conflict was an IRA terror campaign that they started could equally be considered in much the same way.
Although we would have to consider the killings by the UVF in 1966 as unrelated, the bombing campaign by the UVF in 1969 being a separate thing entirely, and that the RUC were simply shooting bad people as was their entitlement and not anything that could be considered in any way unionist aggression.
The unionist mobs of course just happened to be out for an evening stroll and were prevented from taking their traditional route by a bunch of nasty Catholics who were using human rights as a cover for the IRA and a means of denying good protestants their entitlement as upstanding british subjects of the crown.
I guess there really does need to be a lot more official scrutiny and education of these events MT.
If you are right and I am simply misinterpreting what I have read then it is really important that this is properly addressed.
I would say it is absolutely essential that there is a conflict museum established that will provide reasonable insight and accurate portrayal of the troubles told from a variety of view points. There will be no single accurate narrative as many connected events had completely different intentions and consequences for so many people. Each event would need to be presented with a multi-faceted approach.
Your arrogance to think only your interpretations should be considered as accurate MT is one of the reasons I so frequently believe that there can be any long term future for british separatism in any part of Ireland.
“I am not at all surprised you would see it that way MT.”
See what what way?
“Of course, your persistent claims that the conflict was an IRA terror campaign that they started could equally be considered in much the same way.”
I’ve never once made such a claim, never mind persistently done so.
“I guess there really does need to be a lot more official scrutiny and education of these events MT.
If you are right and I am simply misinterpreting what I have read then it is really important that this is properly addressed.”
I take it this means you can’t even cite one study that supports your interpretation that ‘they started it’?
“Your arrogance to think only your interpretations should be considered as accurate MT is one of the reasons I so frequently believe that there can be any long term future for british separatism in any part of Ireland.”
I’ve never said that only my interpretations should be considered as accurate.
Why don’t you respond to what people say rather than respond to things you pretend they’ve said?
No, I’m quite comfortable thanks.
People vote for “the shinners”.
They don’t vote for “the provos”.
It seems to be you that can’t grasp it.
Maybe write it down somewhere to help you in the future.
“No, I’m quite comfortable thanks.”
Not the impression you’re giving. You got all prickly because I referred to PSF as the Provos. Seems like you’d prefer not to be reminded that they belong to the PRM?
Doesnt like to be corrected.
No idea where I could have got that impression from.
‘Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away’, well Jude’s alma mater, I addressed an Oireachtas committee on the potential for representation in Seanad and Presidential elections for citizens living in Ireland but excluded from the Oireachtas because we were a bit abandoned by the blueshirts and stickies in ’22.
It is good, at last, to see what I raised at our national Dail being finally worked upon.
All life is a trade off, if the Unionists do not want additional pressure exerted by Dail Eireann on why the road to Derry has not been progressed, or, just why unofficial state actors are being paid large sum’s of ‘hush money’ from the taxpayer (albeit none of them ever did an honest day’s taxpaying in their lives) then, perhaps Unionist politicians could recognize the huge influence they could gain from having a voice in an Oireachtas, a point I made to the Committee Chair in 2009.