Is there a state in the EU more corrupt than Ireland?
How many of the world nations consider like the US do, that Ireland has unsavoury tax rules which give literally billions of tax payers’ money to corporate entities such as Apple while its people suffer austerity for the ineptitude of continuous Irish governments rotating between Fine Gael and Fianna Fail and now we have the benefit of both in a cloak and dagger coalition and getting the worst of both at the same time?
The reason Irelands economy is so overinflated today was down to this greed in government. It should have been obvious that constantly putting up house prices by allowing banks to give out unrealistic mortgages by allowing inflation to balloon and personal debt to grow to unsustainable levels was going to end badly. The consequences will be felt for generations and while the austerity imposed by the ECB has been essential in sustaining growth it has been detrimental to the most vulnerable who are suffering the most.
Debt has never before been so crippling and house prices are once again on the rise in Dublin yet homelessness I don’t believe has ever been such a problem.
The reason that this problem was so much more severe in Ireland was that Fianna Fail were making too much money by buying property to rent out and were allowing the banks to run the country.
Fine Gael are no better and are also rife with landlords in their numbers.
Interesting to see they have learned nothing and with rent about to go up 12% over 3 years at an accumulative 4% per year.
How many in FG and FF must be rubbing their hands?
It was pushed through by FG in the opportunistic absence of FF, so FF can benefit while distancing themselves.
We can thank Sinn Feins Eoin Ó Broin that year 1 was not 8%, when his scrutiny discovered an error in Minister for Housing Simon Coveney’s bill.
Seems Sinn Fein have their hands full with corruption on both sides of the border.
I wonder what parties in Ireland have the most landlords among their numbers in both jurisdictions?
I am not suggesting there is any wrong doing in being a landlord, but if large numbers of party members have multiple properties to let, it seems corruption is sure to follow.
The Irish tax rules do not give “literally” or any other way for that matter “billions” of tax money to corporate entities.
The other countries may believe that Ireland has unsavoury tax rules, but that is simply due to them having extremely punitive tax rules and trying to deflect from that.
The fact that Irish living conditions are amongst the best in the world seems to be telling us that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are doing all right.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-quality-of-life-map.html
The Irish economy is one of the strongest in Europe if not the world. GDP rising, GNP rising, the core domestic demand rising. If the republic is in trouble financially then the rest of Europe is on the skids.
as for debt never before being so crippling, can you explain that further. I feel that is merely a rhetorical device but I feel you should still explain that remarkable claim.
House prices are indeed on the rise as the economy rises and the squeeze on housing due to lack of building homes creates a huge demand that FG are not getting to grips with though hopefully the capping of rents introduced at 4% will help. But the real cause, the planning laws, need to be addressed as it encourages developers to land bank to push up prices and thus the cost of building is artificially inflated. It is no caused by landlords or banks per se. They are only reactive. As for the number of landlords in parties, have you ever looked at the number of SF and SDLP landlords. It is no better north of the border.
The tax rules allow money to be directed to non existent businesses with addresses that cannot be touched for tax by any state and therefore the corporate entities get to keep the money.
This encourages large US businesses to setup companies outside of the US to avoid paying tax there and by allowing such practices, the Irish tax payer is also losing out.
What is the benefit?
They claim jobs but there is no evidence that the lower tax rate and non disreputable savings would not be sufficient to keep these companies here, add to this the talent there is in Ireland, the fact the data centres are within the EU and compliant with EU regulations which they wouldn’t be in the US so they will have to have some presence in the EU anyway for data purposes, and you can see that the reality is the Irish tax payer is indeed losing billions and most likely for nothing.
Perhaps more scrutiny needs to be applied to see what else is benefitting in Ireland and whether there are links to these parties.
I am aware the Ireland is experiencing continued growth, in my opinion this was more down to ECB enforced austerity measures than FG and FF. They are only now or recently getting control back in their own hands and only now able to borrow again.
It seems to me that because of the greater than ECB expectations on growth and unjustified waste of potential tax money, the Irish people have worked there asses off and suffered austerity for nothing.
As for living conditions and wages, an enormous amount of GDP is spent on health and public services, but a high percentage of this is squandered and is not value for money.
Wages were made unsustainably high as outlined above and wage freezes have helped address this.
The private sector has suffered the most and now we see the public services all wanting their wages made up to where they would have been had the austerity measures not happened.
This will undo the good recovery and lead to a gulf between private sector and public sector wages or bring us back to unsustainable inflation.
The difficult decisions are only now having to be made and only now back in the hands of these parties.
I see the same traits coming out and no lessons having been learned.
Take back these billions and build bloody houses, hospitals, pay for more doctors and keep inflation down to rectify the economy not keep trying to please everyone to stay in power and keep votes. To many parties on this island are focussed by votes.
The rent cap is 4% per year over 3 years making 12% in the end.
That is laughable.
I think all parties should be made to declare whether they are landlords and how many homes they own, SF included and in both parts of Ireland.
As for debt.
Do you think all these people in the south driving about in flash cars are not up to their eyes in debt? Either that or wealth distribution is further up the left than I imagined.
Thee should not be so many children homeless and living in squalor if things are as good as you make out.
The civil war parties are only getting the reigns back now. It will be up to the people whether they allow them to screw the country up yet again.
Just to clarify this Croiteir.
Apple are creating companies in Ireland with bank accounts in other countries.
They are then doing business in the US in these companies names, so Americans are buying products or services in the US and the money is leaving the US tax free using Irish company tax details, so no tax is paid in the US.
Now, because Ireland is allowing these companies to be setup as ghosts if you like, money is simply passing through without stopping in Ireland or at least paying any or token amounts of tax in Ireland even though Apple has declared to the US that it is Ireland who is eligible for this tax and therefore they don’t need to pay it in the US.
Apple keeps all the money and it is the US that has lost tax revenue that should have gone to the Irish tax payers except the FG/FF coalition are hell bent on letting them keep as much of it as possible.
If this loop hole or whatever you want to call it, dodgy tax regime seems accurate, then Apple would be paying tax for this business at the 12.5% rate which is still considerable savings from what it would be in the US and the amount is cost the public purse over the years was identified as being 13 billion and with interest 19 billion should they wish to reclaim it which they are still legally entitled to do.
I sure as hell would.
Look what could be done with that money.
And this is only Apple. How many other US corporates are getting the same dodgy deal?
Let me clarify that set up as you do not seem to understand the concept. These companies that Apple use to sell goods in the US are not taking anything whatsoever from Ireland, if anyone is losing out it is the US, but then who is responsible for that? Yes, the US.
Ok, lets say there is this little island called corruptland, which has a low tax rate of 12.5%.
Every corporate business has to pay tax at 12.5%, but hold on, not quite everyone.
A few special companies are exempt and only these special companies get special treatment.
One such company called Mapple sold 16 billion of good throughout the EU which corruptland was a member off and all sales were attributed to one if its subsidiary companies called Mapple tax dodge Ltd. which was registered in corruptland and a valid tax clearance code provided.
Not only did Mapple tax dodge Ltd. exist only on paper, employed not one single person in corruptland, but paid very little tax whatsoever.
In fact, in 2011, out of the 16 billion tax revenue due, Mapple tax dodge Ltd was taxed on something like 50million and paid only 10million in actual tax which is a corporate tax rate in the region of 0.0005%.
But surely the jobs and wealth created by this company would make this a good thing?
Well, no, none of the sales ever touched corruptland and there is no evidence of the business existing in corruptland.
So what about the FDI I hear you say.
In the 1950s, corruptland had very little to offer and relied on FDI and such sweetheart tax deals which kept us ticking over.
Today, it attributes less than 10% of the economy and corruptland has a world class workforce of skilled and highly educated people.
It is growing in confidence and striving for someone to help break the shackles of corporate slavery, of only corruptland had leaders with a spine who would take us there.
So would about the GDP and economic boom these companies offer.
Indeed, because these sales were registered by a company based in corruptland and the revenue attributed to being due to corruptland, the statistics will indeed show these 16 bilion of sales as part of corruptlands exports.
So isn’t corruptland indeed doing well, except wait, we didn’t actually get the 16 billion, we got 10 million, so we would have to strike that amount off the GDP.
Hence we now have the term “leprechaun economics”.
So if we didn’t actually earn this money then what good is it?
Ah, well see corruptland are very fond of borrowing, and there is a 3% of GDP limit on borrowing within the EU.
So using this fantasy money, the wonderful leaders in corruptland can now borrow more than they should and have found a way of getting around the safety limits the ECB imposed for our own well being.
Bu we are going to invest with this money aren’t we?
Oh no. We need to pretend we have inspired a recovery and instead we will filter money back into public sector pay rises, start increasing the rental values again and other short term fudges which the leaders can line their pockets in.
But isn’t that going to lead to another crash and the inevitable rectification when these companies move this capital out of corruptland again. How are you going to avoid this?
Well, by that stage Sinn Fein will have been elected and we can just let them deal with it.
Might as well get a few euro when the going is good.
I believe that you are talking about “copper plate” companies. These are entirely in keeping with international law, if you think Ireland can unilaterally ignore that law then you are mistaken. It is not true to say that they do not pay tax, they do. The pay in accordance with both national and international law. If you wish to point a finger at tax avoidance schemes ran by countries then point it at the British and their colonies before you go anywhere else. I also cannot see how the Irish taxpayer are losing out from this. That is a totally illogical claim in respect of the copperplate companies, in fact the opposite is true as had these companies not located in Ireland then the Irish tax take would be smaller. The Irish taxpayer is gaining from them.
As for the paragraph Who Benefits? You say ” They claim jobs but there is no evidence that the lower tax rate and non disreputable savings would not be sufficient to keep these companies here” and then you say that they – for data purposes – have to locate their data in the EU. Well why wouldn’t they go to the likes of Luxembourg for example? As for claiming jobs, how few jobs are the likes of Google, Intel, paypal and so on not create? What would the tax take from these high paid jobs not be? Just for instance like.
You then claim that the ECB inflicted an austerity program that created the more recent boom in the Irish economy. Is this the austerity that the left has been railing at in the likes of SF and AAA/PPB? If it is then the policies of FG are not to blame, in fact they should be commended for their delivery. One must be consistent in the application of blame and praise. Otherwise any opprobrium or hagiography is just seem as bias at best or hypocrisy at worst. It is strange that the underlying cause of the recovery, the strength of the Irish export industry, most of it based on the FDI companies who, according to you, do not pay enough taxes, ensured that money continued to flow into Irish coffers even through the worse of the depression. Those pesky foreigners eh?
I am very interested in your analysis that a lot of GDP is squandered on health and public services, I doubt it, in light of austerity et cetera but I am open to evidence of the contrary, and I do not mean someone nicking a biro or two, but real waste.
I am surprised that you advocate austerity in the freezing of wages and rightly call out some of the public sector who cannot keep their word, but that is the way of the weary world as the greedy will always be prepared to risk others for their on selfish advantage.
You cannot take these billions, they do not exist and will never find their way into Irish coffers if they did the countries in which the taxes would have been incurred would claim them not Ireland.
All parties are obsessed by votes, that’s what gets them in power, and power allows them to change things. If you want parties to obsess over something else than votes then you need to changed the present democratic process.
I am aware that the rent cap of 4% is not the best, thankfully FF manage to ring that out of FG but it is a start. However the problem is that FG are a liberal party, having much in common with the liberalism of the nineteenth century and will not interfere with the market unless forced. Which is disgusting as that is the same attitude which lead to the death of so many Irish in the famine. Same mind set causing misery.
You are correct in saying that household debt in Ireland is high, the third highest in the EU, however are you aware that this has dropped by 25% last year.
Overall the Irish economy is strong and getting stronger and the Irish public are slowly reaping the rewards of this, their unemployment rates are now down to between 7 to 8 %, and still falling. It is in much better shape than most of the EU and definitely better than we are in the north
I have no idea what “copper plate” companies are Croiteir and I am most definitely not suggesting Ireland break international law, more that we would do better to keep within it.
“It is not true to say that they do not pay tax, they do. The pay in accordance with both national and international law.”
In a way this is accurate, but it has given Ireland a bad name and reputation in the world.
“If you wish to point a finger at tax avoidance schemes ran by countries then point it at the British and their colonies before you go anywhere else. I also cannot see how the Irish taxpayer are losing out from this. ”
I am not being critical simply for the sake of being critical.
It is no only the Irish taxpayer that is losing out, but all of our people to date and it is putting our futures at great risk.
It is very foolish economic policy, it shows we have learned nothing from mistakes of the past and if you don’t believe me, look up what the term “leprechaun economics” means. We are a laughing stock in the eyes of the worlds leading economists and I agree with them completely.
“You then claim that the ECB inflicted an austerity program that created the more recent boom in the Irish economy. Is this the austerity that the left has been railing at in the likes of SF and AAA/PPB? If it is then the policies of FG are not to blame, in fact they should be commended for their delivery. One must be consistent in the application of blame and praise. Otherwise any opprobrium or hagiography is just seem as bias at best or hypocrisy at worst. ”
What recent boom in the Irish economy? Austerity has brought down expenditure and reduced debt, it has not created any boom or benefit to the Irish economy.
Am I right that you think I am just being overly harsh on these parties for no reason, or even that it is unjustified?
“That is a totally illogical claim in respect of the copperplate companies, in fact the opposite is true as had these companies not located in Ireland then the Irish tax take would be smaller. The Irish taxpayer is gaining from them.”
Enough to justify allowing them screw other nations for billions in lost tax revenue?
It is going to come back and bite hard im afraid.
“Well why wouldn’t they go to the likes of Luxembourg for example? As for claiming jobs, how few jobs are the likes of Google, Intel, paypal and so on not create? What would the tax take from these high paid jobs not be? Just for instance like. ”
They may well do.
I am saying I want Ireland to be led by someone with a spine and who has the backbone to claim the tax our people are entitled to and to use it wisely.
There are other benefits from being in Ireland, language is an attraction, but primarily we have an excellent and talented workforce in both parts of this island and it is our primary service industry which we now well, it is trusted by many nations.
We don’t need to allow ourselves be held to ransom.
“It is strange that the underlying cause of the recovery, the strength of the Irish export industry, most of it based on the FDI companies who, according to you, do not pay enough taxes, ensured that money continued to flow into Irish coffers even through the worse of the depression. Those pesky foreigners eh? ”
The underlying cause of the recovery was freezing wages and austerity.
I assure you, Apple has not benefited Irelands recovery one bit – far from it, it has made the austerity measures harsher than they should have been.
Not sure if you are suggesting I have a problem with foreigners, but you should read up a bit more on this as you are factually and worryingly wrong in your assumptions.
“I am very interested in your analysis that a lot of GDP is squandered on health and public services, I doubt it, in light of austerity et cetera but I am open to evidence of the contrary, and I do not mean someone nicking a biro or two, but real waste.”
You need only look at the amount spend on public services as %GDP, it makes Ireland in statistics anyway look like one of the most left wing socialist countries on the planet. Then look at the reality. If you think the money is being spent wisely then fair enough?
I would be looking more for my bucks personally.
“I am surprised that you advocate austerity in the freezing of wages and rightly call out some of the public sector who cannot keep their word, but that is the way of the weary world as the greedy will always be prepared to risk others for their on selfish advantage.”
I am an advocate of the Keynesian economics which the ECB enforced on Ireland and is the recommendation for Ireland post reunification as outlined in the report Sinn Fein commissioned which outlines considerable savings from merging the 2 administrations.
In the long term I would like to see Ireland as a sovereign nations outside of the EU, but clearly unification is going to have to happen within the EU so they can hold our hands while we rebuild the country. After reading your comments, I don’t think I would trust anyone in Ireland to manage this process.
“You cannot take these billions, they do not exist and will never find their way into Irish coffers if they did the countries in which the taxes would have been incurred would claim them not Ireland. ”
Of course they exist. What do you even mean they don’t exist?
The US has already said it is coming after Ireland to get the money back, and it will.
They are already putting through ;legislation that will mean Ireland has to pay additional trade tariffs applicable to ALL business with the US.
This will apply to all countries who have unfair tax practices and was inspired by Ireland.
“I am aware that the rent cap of 4% is not the best, thankfully FF manage to ring that out of FG but it is a start. ”
It isn’t a cap of 4%, it was a fudge and FF did not ring it out of them, they didn’t even show up to object to it allowing it to get through unchallenged.
It will be an increase of 12% over 3 years and it will be landlords who will benefit.
“However the problem is that FG are a liberal party, having much in common with the liberalism of the nineteenth century and will not interfere with the market unless forced. Which is disgusting as that is the same attitude which lead to the death of so many Irish in the famine. Same mind set causing misery.”
Fianna Fail are every bit as bad as Fine Gael, there is little between them.
“You are correct in saying that household debt in Ireland is high, the third highest in the EU, however are you aware that this has dropped by 25% last year.
Overall the Irish economy is strong and getting stronger and the Irish public are slowly reaping the rewards of this, their unemployment rates are now down to between 7 to 8 %, and still falling. It is in much better shape than most of the EU and definitely better than we are in the north”
It is not companies like Apple who are reducing unemployment but self employed and small businesses who get no help whatsoever while corporates who offer nothing by comparison get everything. It is totally wrong.
Have you spoken to any business owners. small companies or what are you basing these inaccurate and flawed comments on?
Giving Ireland a bad name – it isn’t. It is only annoying big economies such as Britain, France and Germany, well specially those in the EU who tax regime centres on corpo tax and especially corpo tax on large companies. Ireland is not the lowest or near it for corpo tax, rather those people have high corpo tax.
The Irish people are not losing out. Irish people are gaining from this in employment terms and tax take. To say otherwise is just flying in the face of facts for ideological reason I presume. But it is flying in the face of facts.
The south has recovered,. It has done so due to its strong export records. It has traded itself out of the mire. This is due to the policies of FF in particular, although I know it is not popular to say it but it is true. They developed Ireland as a trading nation and encouraged FDI since Lemass. I can do a history of that if you want to show you how that did not happen but was developed, unlike the north which was constrained its link to retain and suffered accordingly. It is interesting that you claim that austerity caused the recovery yet every left wing party in the south, and FF to a lesser extent, claims it does the exact opposite. I am very interested to see you extrapolate that claim.
“to screw other nations for tax in lost billions” Hold on, you were saying that this money was belonging to the Irish taxpayer, now you are saying it belongs to other nations, please be consistent, which is it. My argument is it belongs to the US. They allow Apple to hold it off shore due to their tax laws not ours. Let them deal with it. and, by the way, it looks like Trump is going to address that. He understands the issue. And he does not run around pointing the finger at other nations blaming them for American inadequacy.
As for %GDP spent on public services, Ireland spends less than the socialists in the US, Germany, japan and so n. In fact Ireland should, in my view, be spending more. But you will not get FG to do that.
Here is the chart of the latest data for you from the OECD. Your claim is just wrong Jessica.
https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-spending.htm
The ECB did not enforce Keynesian economics on Ireland no matter what people may claim. Keynesian economics are a busted flush. How to do regard the cutting back of govt spending as dictated by the troika as Keynesian?
I am saying that the money does not exist as a tax take, I would have thought that was obvious, and you are right, the money belongs to America and once it gets its house in order it will get the money. it is not Irish money. Again your argument is inconsistent.
If America is putting trade tariffs on Ireland it would be interesting to say the least as it would be putting them on Europe. have you a link for that?
As for the railing against FF. Have you been following this, FF pressurised them into creating rent certainty for people and got them to extend it beyond Dublin. Do not rely on FG to interfere with the market, again read McWilliams on that. And there is a huge gap in ideology between FG and FF. anyone who says different just aren’t paying attention.
I am glad that you accept that the south is well on the road to recovery to were it was in 2007-08. It is true that the self employed are the backbone of the economy in terms of numbers employed. However do not believe that the multinationals are side players. they are crucial in that they provide very good jobs which increase the tax take and boost local economies which in turn allows a lot of the smaller enterprises to exist.
Have I spoke to small businesses? yes – I in a small business in the service sector. Everyday is the answer Jessica – and my answers are not flawed but backed up by facts, can you back your statements or are you, to use a crude terminology used before, plucking them out of your arse?
You are confusing Irelands low tax rate of 12,5% which I support, with the sweetheart tax.
They are too different things.
“The south has recovered,. It has done so due to its strong export records. It has traded itself out of the mire. This is due to the policies of FF in particular”
Irelands recovery was not down to any political party but small businesses and innovative people working their asses off such as myself.
Invest NI has been supportive of small businesses giving them grant aids where additional revenue growth from outside the 6 counties can be demonstrated, or in developing export trade relations, can you tell me what help FF or the south have given to small business. We know how much they have given to corporates.
“It is interesting that you claim that austerity caused the recovery yet every left wing party in the south, and FF to a lesser extent, claims it does the exact opposite. I am very interested to see you extrapolate that claim. ”
Austerity is simply good business practice. Don’t spend more than you earn and invest wisely.
Inflation was Irelands greatest damage, mostly caused by Fianna Fail and the wage freezes helped rectify this.
Ireland has not recovered and remains in dire straits, I do not share your optimism of where we are.
You are also very confused about left wing politics and anti austerity.
I have listened to Jermey Corbyn and he is pretty much on the same wavelength as myself on many things. He supports keynesian economics which is basically austerity measures reasonably applied. Instead of investing 100 billion in a stupid submarine, invest it in building homes and roads etc… which will revitalise the economy.
Yet I am not left wing and not a socialist.
If you can tell me what a sweetheart tax is I will comment – I have heard of a sweetheart tax deal but I suspect that you mean something different, given that we were taking about the rate of tax corporations pay I suspected that you meant corporation tax earlier. It now appears that you mean something else entirely but you need to define it better so we can be sure we are debating the same thing.
as for the small businesses fuelling the recovery in the south. I agree entirely. small businesses do create wealth, but they have to operate in an economic framework, that framework is set by, amongst other things, the government. And the republic has had the benefit of a forward looking pro business govt, and a specifically pro small business govt, namely Fianna Fail.
If you are looking for small business support in the south the internet is awash with help – go to here as a first step,
https://www.supportingsmes.ie/BusinessDetails.aspx
The Local Enterprise Offices, there are 31 of them, also aid anyone starting up with course, advice and grants. Their is a plethora of support, more than in the north, see for example the latest sibr support. I think you must be aware of this if you are in small business in the south, either that or you are just making this up as you go along.
Are you aware of what the inflation rates in Ireland were? Are you saying they were high? Are you aware of the need for an appropriate inflation rate to dampen the demand for cheap money which leads to boom and bust?
Ireland is moving ahead of the rest of Europe once again, to say that Ireland is in dire straits is simply not true. Have look at the IMF reports, the OECD reports and other unbiased reports, all saying the same, Ireland is now in a similar position economically as it was pre crash.
Corbyn is saying do all these things, but he is saying do it on the back of loas, no austerity for him, let the next generation pay. That is just madness given that the Britis are in hock for trillions.
“If you can tell me what a sweetheart tax is I will comment”
I am talking about Fianna Fail and Fine Gael led governments tacitly endorsing Apple channelling profits through two holding companies incorporated in Ireland and paying tax only on their capital assets at massively reduced rates leaving billions of euros of profit totally untaxed.
I am referring to the sweetheart deal as named by the EU which found Ireland to have broken European anti competition law in giving Apple this deal.
It was Fianna Fail who drove the Irish economy over the cliff Croiteir.
I assume you are connected to the party – the way you are so desperately defending them.
So how would my business go about getting onto this economic framework that Apple is on I assume?
Would I be able to incorporate a business in Ireland and use it for sales in other countries with no presence in Ireland whatsoever and not declare the revenue or how would I manage to avoid the tax the way Apple did.
If you could show me the form for that framework I would be very interested and would have a few pounds to invest in it.
“Hold on, you were saying that this money was belonging to the Irish taxpayer, now you are saying it belongs to other nations, please be consistent, which is it. My argument is it belongs to the US. They allow Apple to hold it off shore due to their tax laws not ours. Let them deal with it. and, by the way, it looks like Trump is going to address that. He understands the issue. And he does not run around pointing the finger at other nations blaming them for American inadequacy.”
Fair enough, let me try to explain.
This is not 100% accurate as there are different taxes involved paid at different times but is an attempt to try to make it easier to understand.
Lets say I sell an apple computer at $1000 and have to add 30% tax so I have to sell it at $1300, keep $1000 and give $300 to the US taxman.
But lets say I have another company registered in Ireland and I allocate the sale to it.
Irelands tax rate is 10% so I can either sell it at $1100, keep $1000 and give $100 to the Irish taxman or sell it at $1300, keep $1170 and give $130 to the Irish taxman.
And either is fine.
Now what if I have another company which exists only on paper which has been allowed to pass money through to a bank in the cayman islands.
The US taxman assumes because it was registered in Ireland that the tax was collected there and everything is fine.
Now, lets say that Ireland gets into financial difficulties and needs a bail out. The IMF take over the books and spot that such sales they have attributed as having tax paid in Ireland from other parts of the EU, are missing. Where is this revenue they say?
It then comes out that Ireland having dropped the “double irish” tax system of selling goods internally to different companies within the same group to remove tax have now come up with another innovative solution called the sweetheart tax system which allows companies to create ghost companies which collect no tax or very little.
So now the US have got wind of this and are looking at how much revenue has been directed from the states to these ghost companies.
They didn’t mind these billions being paid to Ireland as a consequence of globalisation, but to find they were not paid at all and was simply Ireland assisting them in avoiding paying tax into US coffers. Well, can you see now how it looks from the other perspective.
As I have said, I support the low tax rate but not this.
The Irish people have lost billions which would have been even more billions had it been paid in the original country of sale.
The US is bringing in new legislation to prevent this so this will have to end one way or another.
Trump has hinted he may come after this money in the courts which will bring Ireland into disrepute and could damage trade relations later.
Can you not see the risk?
That is fine but it is not the whole story, this sweetheart tax that you talk about is nothing of the sort, the third company you speak of is an American company, (not Irish), which holds the rights for the IP of the goods which it sells a licence to, the other companies pay this licence on each sale to the American tax man, the banking used is in the British dependency of the Caymans, (nothing to do with Ireland), until it is repatriated to America. If you want to get it taxed properly contact the British about their tax havens in Cayman and the americans that allow their companies to keep it in the Caymans, it is not an Irish problem.
You aren’t Michael Noonan by any chance?
So no iPhone sales went through these accounts, it was IP only is that it?
that’s a good one.
I will write this up in more detail and hopefully Jude will post it tomorrow and we can explore this further.
It wont be long before the Irish people will be demanding to now a lot more about this amazing boom and recovery we went through and why the EU is putting our fees up for money we never accepted and let Apple keep.
What do Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and the DUP have in common?
Wasting 400 million of Irish tax payers money perhaps?
Ok Croiteir
Thank you for posting this, very interesting to see a Fianna Fail supporter peddling Fine Gael lies.
Backs up my opinion that you are two peas in a pod.
But to address your regurgitation of the Noonan spin story to justify Ireland not claiming this money, here are a few FACTS you need to respond to.
1
The EU commission confirmed the sales attributed to these Irish incorporated companies were physical iPhones (not licenses) and according to international law, tax HAD to be paid somewhere.
2
In response Apple agreed and claimed it was always there intention to pay tax, they were just unsure where it needed to be paid.
Even Apple themselves didn’t backup Noonan’s lies.
How can you justify Fianna Fail backing up these claims when Apple themselves couldn’t?
3
The US have confirmed they would have been happy for this money to have been paid elsewhere but were not going to tolerate no tax being paid.
4
The US have said because Ireland has rejected this money and since according to international law, it MUST be paid somewhere, they have claimed it and are in the process of repatriating these profits.
5
Apple are not only not going to fight this, they paid immediately and have put 32 billion into escrow while the process of repatriation is implemented.
Still waiting for your bullet list of policy differences between Fianna Fail and Fine Gael that you claimed will reveal a huge gap in ideology by the way.
Perhaps you need Noonan to pen that one for you also. 🙂
You should just merge and form one party, Fianna Gael and drop the sham fights.
“As for %GDP spent on public services, Ireland spends less than the socialists in the US, Germany, japan and so n. In fact Ireland should, in my view, be spending more. But you will not get FG to do that.”
I am not sure what you mean I am wrong or wont let FG spend more.
To clarify, what I am saying is that I believe Ireland is not getting value for money on the amount it is currently spending.
I disagree with the 3% limit imposed by the EU and would want to borrow more to invest in things like making Ireland 100% self sufficient in renewable energy and to be a global leader in this technology, reselling services and developing turbines in Ireland to sell to the rest of the world.
This will help reduce Irelands energy costs for business which will also give another incentive to locate here.
I would invest in infrastructure for decades to not only give construction a boost but to develop tourism as well as the social housing projects to help address the current needs of our people.
I would also invest in our knowledge and tech innovation sectors as well as education which will help keep these corporates here for real reasons and not dodgy tax incentives.
Ireland has such potential but we are not even on the road to achieving it in my view never mind traveling along it.
“The ECB did not enforce Keynesian economics on Ireland no matter what people may claim. Keynesian economics are a busted flush. How to do regard the cutting back of govt spending as dictated by the troika as Keynesian?”
Yes it did.
Wage increases were frozen and inflation was stymied.
Keynesian economics is about recovering from a recession by lowering prices, reducing the cost of living to allow people to live on lower wages to ease pressures on the public purse but at the same time encourage spending and avoiding excessive saving.
Irelands true economic picture is difficult to assess as there is so much fiction in the books and statistics.
For example, is FDI now 10% of GDP based on real revenues taken or inclusive of the billions attributed but of which no actual revenue was brought in?
Can you answer that, for I cant?
“If America is putting trade tariffs on Ireland it would be interesting to say the least as it would be putting them on Europe. have you a link for that?”
That is true.
We will have to wait and see what happens. This could have a major impact on globalisation and the worlds economy.
It will also cause friction among the US wealthiest multi national businesses and their government.
I don’t think anyone knows how this is going to play out, but both Hillary Clinton and Trump have vowed to pursue this in 2017 so it is going to happen.
“As for the railing against FF. Have you been following this, FF pressurised them into creating rent certainty for people and got them to extend it beyond Dublin. Do not rely on FG to interfere with the market, again read McWilliams on that. And there is a huge gap in ideology between FG and FF. anyone who says different just aren’t paying attention. ”
Can you describe to me just a brief list of the key policy differences between FG and FF please?
“It is true that the self employed are the backbone of the economy in terms of numbers employed. However do not believe that the multinationals are side players. they are crucial in that they provide very good jobs which increase the tax take and boost local economies which in turn allows a lot of the smaller enterprises to exist. ”
They are important, but that does not mean they should be allowed to bully us into giving them advantages over other businesses who contribute as much if not more, and I do not believe that we would be worse off by making them pay the 12.5% same as everyone else and restoring trust with other nations of the world.
Trust has been damaged with other states for the benefit of a few businesses who could be compelled to dump on us through other means such as the US dropping tax rates or other motivators. Where would that leave us them do you think?
Can you at least see the risk?
“Have I spoke to small businesses? yes – I in a small business in the service sector. Everyday is the answer Jessica – and my answers are not flawed but backed up by facts, can you back your statements or are you, to use a crude terminology used before, plucking them out of your arse?”
I have given you facts, Apple did factually pay 10million in tax to Ireland out of 16 billion in sales attributed.
In fact everything I have said is factual, you have not given me any facts other than links to sites you have not understood the details off and got completely wrong.
This is an important topic to me and I am trying to keep it civil for that reason.
You are not going to wind me up on this topic with such insults.
Out of curiosity, can I ask what your reason for such defensiveness of FF in particular might be?
And don’t forget the policy differences between FG and FF.
I would be very keen to see this huge gap in ideology.
I think Ireland missed a trick with the ‘ghost estates’.
They could have sequestered/seized these empty estates and houses and used them to house government workers e.g. nurses, Gardaí, firemen etc thereby insulating them from rent rises and ergo the need for public purse crippling pay rises every so often when the economy overheats. (It would have been complicated but not impossible and the excess stock could be used for social housing (for working people, imho) or sold off when the market allowed so).
I personally think (as economically illiterate as I am) that high property prices are a curse:
it leads to homelessness, it leads to crippling debt, people become obsessed with ‘getting on the ladder’, old buildings are destroyed to make way for flats, wages have to rise correspondingly which in turn makes the place less competitive in terms of exports, when properties increase enough they’re then seen as ‘investments’ by overseas investors who then turn the screw even tighter.
Sure, it’s great to have young fellas employed on the sites but we’ve seen what happens when the work runs out.
In the 1960’s the UK average house price was LESS than the average annual income, now we’re expected to pay 3-5 times our combined salaries (maybe even more in Dublin).
The state employees wouldn’t move out of Dublin when they tried to coax them out Ag in an effort to cut costs and stimulate the economy in the regions. Here is an explanation
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2016/12/15/coveney-walking-a-tightrope-in-risky-bid-to-end-housing-crisis
Hat’s off Croiteir, I’m only dipping my toe in southern economic matters, I am rather ignorant of it in general.
(Though surely there must have been some way-laid developments in the Dublin commuter belt/The Pale area?)
A lot of problems is caused by the idiotic planning laws, they give developers every incentive not to build until the price is right. As well as that the green belt is making a daily commute necessary and thus causing problems environmentally as well.
It is a mess but it would be a brave politician too take this on. He would be eviscerated by so many special interest groups.
This is a problem shared with Britain.
http://www.newgeography.com/content/005289-dublin-facing-another-housing-bubble
“It is a mess but it would be a brave politician too take this on. ”
Now this I agree with.
I have never seen such shamefully spineless politicians than we have in Ireland.
The image of Enda Kenny speaking to the EU leaders over our failures to meet renewable energy targets, basically let us off please, we have a lot of cows and they keep on pooing.
It was so cringable
I don’t know if Sinn Fein will fair any better, but in my eyes they are out last hope and if they fail then we may as well forget about sovereignty and accept our fate within the new EU state.
It is the energy and potential I see in people like Eoin OBrien or the passion of people like Mary Lou that gives me hope. I want my countries future in their hands.
It is not the spineless politicians that worry me but the electorate, especially the snowflake generation. Too many people believe that the state should provide for them, that they are owed a living. They are owed nothing. That is the real problem. People handing over their responsibility to the state and demanding that the state pay their way. and they crucify any politician that tells them that it is not so.
My biggest problem is getting good employees, we are on the same wavelength here ok.
In my eyes you too have been sucked in yourself.
You have lost confidence in our people who don’t forget built much of the world and have been at the forefront of many nations development.
It is time we did the same for our own nation.
As with everything, the best line is middle of the road. There are truths on both sides need to be faced up to.
Not only those on welfare but in the public sector also who seem to think they are owed more than the rest of us.
Why should they have to leave Dublin Croiteir?
Fine, what was done will slow done the rate at which we are making the same mistakes again, but that is about the height of it.
Ask Mr McWilliams is this not simply going to lead us back to the same place, another crash and still in desperate need of a proper solution?
I would love to hear what Mr McWilliams believes is the problem and what he thinks about my suggestion that the problem is how many people in FG and FF benefit as landlords.
No one was forcing anyone to do anything Jessica, the scheme was designed out to meet a number of concerns.
1 the cost of offices in Dublin compared to regional towns and the resultant drain on the public purse
2 the heating of the housing market in Dublin and the pressure that comes from that in providing infrastructure
3 to stimulate economic activity in areas that needed it
among others. It failed as the people did not wan to go to the regional towns shows that no matter how rational a plan is on paper you cannot remove the human element and that will have emotional input that cannot be planned for.
You have as much ability to ask McWilliams on whether this will lead to another crash as I have however he does seem to have addressed that Jessica
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2016/11/21/the-public-sector-strikes-are-really-about-housing
which is further than I would go. I would rather go after the developers and landbanking. Get the market building housing rather than allowing these gougers to rip off the system
We need developers Croiteir.
Do you now that Irelands tourism demand is stifled because of insufficient hotels to cover us.
I would use these billions that multi nationals are getting away with and use it to develop social housing, slash rent, make it unattractive to rent property and either force sales of homes or back into public controlled ownership with rent rates reduced.
House prices should be driven down and a bail out program for those forced into negative equity by bank failures to protect individuals by allowing them to get up to their necks in debt.
Everyone’s mortgages should be reduced to the new lower value of the property and the rest written off using this money.
Likewise businesses who have been reckless in HP for cars where insufficient protection was given should be out the money with no protection given,
All loan shark businesses will be nullified and get nothing for the money they have piled on to individuals
I would go after debt and try to get Ireland free of it.
Likewise, wages will go down to sensible levels in line with inflation reducing as per expert guidance.
Basically we need to get tough on debt and go to the EU for help to sort out or economy.
The worst thing we can do is let either Fine Gael or Fianna Fail neat it ever again.
They have destroyed my country and I will not forgive them for it.
Of course we need developers Jessica. No one said otherwise. It is not developers I am reeling against per se it is the stupid planning laws, It allows developers to maximise their profits by distorting the market which has the knock on effect of families unable to afford homes. McWiliam’s suggestion, which you have ignored after asking for it, helps solve that as it would create an imperative to correct this distortive practice.
As for the billions you think we will get. We won’t. Not ever. The tax will go to the US once it is repatriated, Apple are holding off until America drops its rates. And it will with Trump, even if the EU forces Apple to declare the tax before it is repatriated Ireland still won’t get the money. The rules that they are wanting to apply means that the tax will be paid in the countries were the sales were made. Ireland will not get 50 Billion ever. So how do you propose to pay for the homes then? Where does the money come from as you have undermined the small competitive advantage Ireland has. By doing what the EU want you will impoverish Ireland. Smart move their kiddo. What really is happening is a none to subtle attack on the Irish tax rates. The other EU countries cannot do anything about how the Irish tax system so they seek to attack it by other means.
as for negative equity. That is relatively simple to solve theoretically. Just make the banks jointly liable for the loss on the loan. then you will get more sensible lending. That meets most of your demands without giving a carte blanc to people who want the state et al to pay their credit cards.
You want to go to the EU for help on debt yet ignore it was artificial low interest rates that got Ireland into debt inn the first place by providing absurdly cheap money? And then forced the Irish state to bail out German banks who were overexposed due to their ending to allow Ireland to buy cars? Not a smart idea. the only people who should look after Ireland’s interests are the Irish.
You seem to think that FG and FF have wrecked the economy. I am afraid that the strength of the Irish economy is due mostly to the actions of successive FG/FF govts. If you want to see a mess have a look at Greece, that is the economy of choice for SF and their fellows on the left. That is a true mess. That is why we need to be thankful FF and FG were in charge. We would have been a basket case otherwise.
Developers were allowed to take the lead, they were in control and were forcing up prices so their wages incremented at the same inflation rate as the housing market.
This was tolerated because people in government who should have known better were making the same profits as developers and didn’t really want it to end.
It was too lucrative.
I know this because I worked for a consultancy house though in a different area, but spoke to intelligent consultants who are charged with advising governments on economic policy, and they argued against this also as they, like the ministers were also multi property landlords.
The problem is not the planning laws, but the fact that government did not control inflation. Rather than deal with this, they increased wages so people could afford to pay more and more, through unregulated banking giving out loans many times more than what was reasonably affordable.
Both the responsibility and the blame goes back to government Croiteir and they are making the same mistakes all over again.
“As for the billions you think we will get. We won’t. Not ever. The tax will go to the US once it is repatriated,”
The tax was owed to Ireland, not to the US. It does not get repatriated. It is not illegal to allocate sales to a business in another country. globalisation is based on this. This is money that was legitimately owed to the Irish exchequer. The problem was that select businesses were not paying the amount of tax legitimately owed over back room deals based on handshakes and a nod and a wink. The EU provided a legislative ruling for Ireland to claim it back with interest which they would have backed the recovery off, if Ireland agreed to use it against its deficit. These company’s could have held it up through legal challenges, but in which case, all you would have to do is put them on the same 12.5% as everyone else immediately and you will get tax based on the fantasy sales until they recapitalise elsewhere.
This practice is going to damage Ireland
“Apple are holding off until America drops its rates.”
You are right. But not tell me what you think will happen when they recapitalise and Irelands GDP drops by the say 30billion added which was fantasy money.
First of all, our ability to borrow is slashed as we will still be limited to 3%.
Our deficit will jump up bringing us back into the red well past danger levels and resulting in another austerity program being enforced by the EU.
The fantasy boom you spoke off becomes a fantasy bust.
And what is the plan, these parties have promised to come up with alternative sweeteners which we have yet to hear about.
Now, you seem to be ok with allowing Ireland to basically steal tax revenue off other nations around th world who are our trading partners, but will you be so keen to see real money leave the public purse to cover these new sweeteners. And if not, well you can see where the tracks are getting a little loose.
“And it will with Trump, even if the EU forces Apple to declare the tax before it is repatriated Ireland still won’t get the money. The rules that they are wanting to apply means that the tax will be paid in the countries were the sales were made. ”
No it isn’t and the EU doesn’t need to force Apple to declare tax, it has full access to Irelands books and can see the tax paid in does not match the sales due according to Irelands own legislation for sales made in other parts of the EU.
It has said this is wrong and the only reason it is not illegal yet, is because the world didn’t consider any nation would be so generous with money legitimately owed to its own people. It is like helping a burglar to break in to your own house and giving him the key to the front door and helping him full his sack with your own money.
Globalisation is based on companies being multi national and paying tax in other states. The problem is when the tax rates applicable to everyone else in those states is not applied to select multi nationals off the back o historical handshakes and secret deals with certain political parties.
The US and both Trump and more aggressively Hilary Clinton have said if Ireland does not want this tax revenue. then they will pursue it.
They are content if their own companies are paying tax in the countries they are in but where they are not for whatever reason, this will be incur trade tariffs for ay country refusing to abide by its own rules.
“Ireland will not get 50 Billion ever. So how do you propose to pay for the homes then? Where does the money come from as you have undermined the small competitive advantage Ireland has. By doing what the EU want you will impoverish Ireland. Smart move their kiddo. What really is happening is a none to subtle attack on the Irish tax rates. The other EU countries cannot do anything about how the Irish tax system so they seek to attack it by other means.”
Irelands competitive advantage lies in the ability of our people, not in dodgy tax deals.
That is quite insulting to our people who I have every confidence in by the way.
I am not sure what motivation you think I have Croiteir, I love my country and I want so badly to have it do well.
I am not a kid, I am approaching 50 and have a few businesses and may only have employees in double figures opposed to the thousands multi nationals may have, but the number of people employed by small businesses such as my own dwarfs that and the tax revenue gained from multi nationals who get all the support.
Since it is you who is coming out with all of the inaccurate details, I would appreciate if you were at least a little less condescending and I am happy to try and explain things for you.
“as for negative equity. That is relatively simple to solve theoretically. Just make the banks jointly liable for the loss on the loan. then you will get more sensible lending. That meets most of your demands without giving a carte blanc to people who want the state et al to pay their credit cards.
You want to go to the EU for help on debt yet ignore it was artificial low interest rates that got Ireland into debt inn the first place by providing absurdly cheap money? And then forced the Irish state to bail out German banks who were overexposed due to their ending to allow Ireland to buy cars? Not a smart idea. the only people who should look after Ireland’s interests are the Irish.”
There is nothing simple about resolving Ireland current situation im afraid. I am anti EU, not single market ,single state, but in this case you are right. I have no confidence that we are capable of running our own economic affairs. We need their expertise and backbone.
First of all, to pass the debt totally onto the banks. You realise we own the banks and in doing so it is the tax payer bailing ourselves out 100% anyway. We need to make the banks profitable so we can privatise them once again to get back the money put in to clear off our debt and this time regulate them properly.
It is not the low interest rates that was the problem. It was using the low interest rates to borrow unwisely and not using the money borrowed to make more money but to cover public sector wages and pensions, while not investing in building homes which would have driven the economy. It was allowed to run down and without the homes that could have been built we now have a major homeless crisis which we are still fudging for the same old reasons, greed.
“You seem to think that FG and FF have wrecked the economy. I am afraid that the strength of the Irish economy is due mostly to the actions of successive FG/FF govts. If you want to see a mess have a look at Greece, that is the economy of choice for SF and their fellows on the left. That is a true mess. That is why we need to be thankful FF and FG were in charge. We would have been a basket case otherwise.”
I am not a socialist Croiteir, I am a centre left capitalist. I own my own businesses and have no mortgage or debt.
I will be ok no matter what.
If my businesses continue to grow, I intend to invest in Ireland, building homes out of profits that I will take people in from Dublin or anywhere and allow them to live rent free and give them a job and training if needed until they can afford to pay rent comfortably at lower rates than the state demands.
FG and FF have not only wrecked the economy, but they have destroyed Ireland. They know very well what happened in the north but have chosen to take a pro british stance on truth recovery and when the army start getting sentenced for murders including that of innocent women and children, some of us will not forget that they knew all along.
I am afraid that the strength of the Irish economy is a fantasy. You should speak to businesses up and down the country before making your mind up.
They are all in debt to their eyeballs
Landbanking! That’s the thing in the back of my mind, it’s a big deal in Belfast isn’t it? It’s part of the reason for all the dilapidated buildings?