I was on the Nolan Show – briefly – this morning. The subject was to be the Irish language, but a pre-recorded interview with Nelson McCausland wandered far and wide from that. But Nelson did complain that there wasn’t as much money spent on Irish as there was on Ulster-Scots. He pointed to the greater sum of money spent, for example, on Irish-medium schools.
Unlike most of us, Nelson has studied at Oxford, so you’d think he’d know a thing or two about logic. It would be difficult to have Ulster-Scots medium schools because no parent – as far as I know – has requested that their child be educated through Ulster-Scots. Besides which, if the children in Irish-medium schools were taught in the mainstream system, they’d presumably cost the state more or less the same per head as their classmates. If there’s a financial difference, it’d be interesting to know how much.
But this is to stray from a central point which is rarely articulated: Irish is a language and Ulster-Scots is a dialect, and there is a vital difference between the two. A language is a system of communication that has its own unique vocabulary, grammar and syntax. A dialect, on the other hand, is a particular form of a language, usually found in a particular region. For example, when I lived in the north-east of England, many of the people there spoke ‘Geordie’, which was a colourful and vivid use of the English language. Likewise when I was a child, my father was a keen collector of what are now called ‘Ulster-Scots’ expressions, and delighted in repeating them. But he never for a moment thought he was looking at a different language.
Nelson called for honesty in looking at funding. I’d suggest you start with that distinction, Nelson.
As to the notion that we don’t need Irish because every Irish speaker speaks English: it’s true but mistaken. Art is not something we ‘need’, nor is music, nor is poetry or any of the arts. But our lives would be infinitely poorer if we didn’t have these things. That’s why they’re carefully passed from generation to generation.
The Irish language, like all languages, enriches the lives of those who use it. It has a dynamic relation with thought – if we didn’t have words for things we’d find thought very difficult. And Irish has its own complex and unique way of interpreting the world. We wouldn’t agree to allow, for example, the whale as a species to die out. How much more dazzling and glorious is a language – and yet some would cheerfully throw it away.
An Irish Language Act was signed up to in the St Andrew’s Agreement. All signatories to that should be making sure that what they have agreed is delivered. That’s all that Irish language speakers are asking for – what was promised. No more and no less. And yes, support Ulster-Scots for those who are interested in it. It is a valuable dialect, something which those who value it would do well to recognize. You’re not going to be very convincing in selling a salmon if you claim that it’s a whale.
There IS life after death! Nelson still riding his old hobby horse even after being put out to graze. I suggest he set up an Ulster Scot “Skule’ and see how many parents will send their children to it.
“no parent – as far as I know – has requested that their child be educated through Ulster-Scots” in a “skule”.
most upwardly-moving young Protestant families are sending their kids to Elocution or rather Speech and Drama lessons in an attempt to make them speak the Queen’s English!!
“A tolerant political atmosphere”
We will be waiting another we while on that Seamus ..!!!
Unfortunately with Nelson , it’s not lack of education where he is concerned.
To me he’s like the schoolyard bully we came across when we were growing up , except in his case he has been allowed to get away with his ignorant bullying ways , all the years.
His ” keep the Taig in his place ” attitude is wholly borne out of many of his fellow Party getting away with this attitude over centuries.
But no more will we lie down and take it from his likes. His days are done – The ballot box has recently seen to that where he and DUP are concerned.
As for his Oxford “Education” , I say , ” there are none so blind as those who just refuse to see” !!!
What has been missed in all of this is that In my experience the real core of Irish speakers and scholars are extremely apolitical.
As indeed are a lot of the core traditional music activists.
Within Republicanism Irish proficiency has been seen as a way to burnish your political credentials somewhat, but the real core of Gaelic academia would typically have little time for Sinn Fein in my experience – in fact little time for politics in general.
They are truly consumed by the form, complexity and expression of the spoken and written Irish language, and send their time conversing and organizing forums where like minded people can meet, converse and even compete.
The DUP seem to view the Irish language as a stick to beat Sinn Fein with, but in fact they have been expanding the SF base by attacking people who would have had little time for politics previously.
It is instructive in the thinking of Unionism.
It seems that when they see someone speaking Irish, or playing traditional music they automatically see a SF supporter.
I’d argue this has not been the case in the past – but is becoming so due to their actions.
But I suspect Nelson does not do irony.
Jude, not to mention the Irish is the native language of the land.
I’ve never had a single lesson in Ulster Scotch and yet remarkably I’m quite adept at reading and understanding it. Amazing considering it’s a different “language”.
After all the huffing by the DUP in response to media coverage of their activities over recent times, it appears to be their policy to present themselves as victims of media bias at every turn. As a consequence, it appears to me that the BBC, and Nolan and Talkback in particular, have gone soft with them, have stopped asking the hard pertinent relevant questions, and Nolan, especially, is articulating a line of “Quid pro Quo” in relation to Arlene Foster moving aside, and also SF’s desires to see implementation of matters which had already been signed up to in previous Agreements, and should not be renegotiated.
Regarding Ulster Scotch, it is, as you have articulated, Jude, a dialect, in much the same way as, the Irish Language has several dialects across Ireland.
Nolan’s attitude has been noted. The man blows with the wind and now he is copying up with the DUP support after fully exposing the RHI scandal.How easily is it to be forgotten or sidelined that Sinn Fein preferred to keep the institutions sacrosanct? Arlene Foster did not.Had she had any respect for her office or for any of us , she would have had no problem doing what anyone in any job would have to do and step aside.Otherwise she is setting us all up for a future dictatorship where ministers are better than us all and above the law. The fact is her fingerprints were all over the biggest scandal in history so it would be the right thing to do to suspend her.I would say the same had it been Martin MCGuinness.In fact , he advised her because the man had a bit of sense. That’s all it took…a little bit of sense.Instead, she pushed for an election which nobody needed. We spent she 5 million on it because we all believed that either the institutions really are worthy of saving or possibly that if she did not believe so, that was worth protesting about. So what has changed? She still made the wrong decision and now how could anyone work with her if she does not respect the very integrity of the workings of her office.I’ve said it before, the lowliest office worker suspected of wrong-doing would go on gardening leave until it was sorted, why does she think she can be any different and still have that respect for the law.Mr Nolan is not asking the right questions and as usual…he never listens to the answers even when they are so simple.
You’re starting off on the wrong foot, Jude. The DUP maintain – as shape shifters do – that they never signed the part of St Andrews that binds them to anything. All reasoned arguments are wasted on them. They will have to be shown how normal people act.
Fiosrach a chara – ‘normal’ is a kind word. They signed up to it. They should be concerned that it’s discharged in full by all signatories…
Nelson would prefer it if the grass wasn’t green
“Nelson would prefer it if the grass wasn’t green”
Dominic, I remember reading an article about a place in Scotland where the whole town are Rangers FC supporters. It was a few years ago but I seem to remember the local people demanding a local shops change the green colour of their logo’s because it reminded them of Celtic FC. The colour green was erased out in every possible way in the Town. I know you may not believe this (or there again, maybe you will) but the same people even burnt away the green grass because it was green…..
Maybe Nelson would feel at home there?….
Just found the article, here it is:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/scottish-town-where-green-is-beyond-the-pale-981747.html
That’s fascism
In many ways we should be thankful for Nelson and the DUP, how many thousands of people have signed up to learn the Irish Language thanks to the DUP’s hostility towards it?
I think it would be fair to say that the DUP oppose any expression of Irish culture (or any other) because they see it as a dilution of Britishness. They are simply insecure of their own identity. The truth is the vast majority in Britain and the World would see Unionists as Irish first before anything else, including British, because the DUP live in Ireland. If I went to live in Britain or was born and grew up there I would expect to see expressions of Britishness, that goes without saying, its very elementary. The same goes for Irishness in Ireland, North and South, but the DUP cant accept that and are fighting an already lost battle. The truth is when this state was formed most Unionists thought they were simply going to cut off a piece of Ireland and create their own country with only their own culture being acceptable. That has been a dismal failure. But today some Unionists still think this monocultural British society in the North is still possible, Unionists like Jamie Bryson. Of course its long gone and is impossible to bring back now. But try telling Jamie and Nelson that.
You are right.There are those who are trick ponies and who easily pass exams by remembering data and there are those who understand that data. An old friend of mine also studied at Oxford, but he was also an intellectual.He had a great interest in the arts and had an open mind. Both qualities took him far in life. Nelson, on the other hand , although educated in a strict discipline, appears to have very narrow vision. Any talent he might have has been used to argue himself into a corner. His recent media appearances have been a revelation as to some of his un-academic foolishness. A fool would know that Ulster Scots is a dialect and many of the words are in local usage from bits of Scottish,Irish and old English, where they have also enriched our local English. There are distinctions and there are also many forms of “education” and knowledge. In that respect Nelson is adding little to the conversation.Ifanything, himself and those of like mind are making a greater case for nationalists’ demands for a fairer and more equal society.As anot her contributor has already said , we are already speaking Ulster Scots and some might even have a basic handle on English….but definitely not all…many of whom are still unable to use more than a handfull of words in either speech or writing.
“Besides which, if the children in Irish-medium schools were taught in the mainstream system, they’d presumably cost the state more or less the same per head as their classmates. ”
It would cost less because there would be more pupils per teacher in a mainstream school than in a Gaelic medium one.
How do you know the pupil/teacher ratio in all Irish medium Gaelscoileanna?
“How do you know the pupil/teacher ratio in all Irish medium Gaelscoileanna?”
I don’t, but it’s likely to be higher as the pupil numbers are lower than average
It’s possible that teacher’s numbers are lower than average too. How do you feel about an Acht n.a. Ghaeilge?
“It’s possible that teacher’s numbers are lower than average too.”
Highly unlikely.
“How do you feel about an Acht n.a. Ghaeilge?”
I find the whole concept bizarre of people demanding legislation without knowing what the legislation will do.
Why question something so basic to our Island MT. It’s like questioning the value of the Crown Jewels or the Lough Derg pilgrimage.
“Why question something so basic to our Island MT.”
I’m not sure that mystery legislation for its own sake is basic to our island or anywhere else.
Then you’ve no objection to anything that helps promote the Irish language and enhance it’s use? Someone who aspires to be First minister on this Island argues that there’s more sense in a Polish language act and vows never to have such an act for Irish; is she missing something vital about the place in which she lives, does she deserve to be First minister in a place she so evidently doesn’t understand? What is your impression of such a person MT,and those who surround her?
“Then you’ve no objection to anything that helps promote the Irish language and enhance it’s use?”
I think only a fool.would say he had no objection to *anything*. One needs to know what the thing is before one knows whether or not one objects to it.
“Someone who aspires to be First minister on this Island argues that there’s more sense in a Polish language act and vows never to have such an act for Irish; is she missing something vital about the place in which she lives, does she deserve to be First minister in a place she so evidently doesn’t understand? What is your impression of such a person MT,and those who surround her?”
My imperil the DUP has always been very poor.
Nelson to fellow radio guest, “Sorry I didn’t catch your name?”
Fellow radio guest, “It’s Andree”
Nelson, ” Yes, My Irish isn’t very good I’m afraid”
Fellow radio guest, “It’s French”!
(Now bring face and palm together in a moment of despair.
Nice one Gearoid!..I wonder does Nelson “do” irony or humour… or has that escaped his skillset drawer too?
Should we not be promoting Ulster Scots schools and encouraging parents send their children there to be educated solely through the medium of Ulster Scots. You know, just so that they have the opportunity to become bilingual and perhaps make use of it later in life through teaching ( with reference to the ancient Ulster Scots texts ) or travel. I wonder how many parents would take up the offer?
Once again, Esteemed Blogmeister, a masterly hole in one from you at the Amen Corner during the course of a debate to do with the pros and caddies of language in Paddyland.
Your reading of the greens is as impeccable as ever, and in the Emerald Isle there is scarcely anything quite as green – or as difficult to read, in the early stages at least – as the Leprechaun.
Your drawing of an analogy with the natural world is particularly apt. And struck a particular chord (newly retrieved in the Lost and Found Office) down here in the Free Southern Stateen where there was a real raic, rí rá agus rúille búille recently about the rapacious Rhododendron.
Certain species and strains of our native flora and fauna have taken a bit of a hit since way back when : instance the havoc which has been wreaked by the r. Rh. (see just above) to the local flora such as the buachalán buí and caisearbhán, cam an ime to the darling of the novtiates itself itself, an nóinín.
There has, of course, long been a red alert for the endangered native deer and squirrel, both of a russet tinge.
Our conservationists are not impeded from having a public conversation on these dangers ; au contraire, they are encouraged to do so by an (extremely) accomodating media.
And on World Conservation Day itself one has difficulty remembering a programme when a counter-crank was wheeled on to give the opposing view. Call her, say, Ms. Rhoda End-Game. This is only as it should be.
So far, so goody. Once one moves from the natural world to the habitat of the human, however, a different kettle of cat-fish is heard to whistle.
Only last week, the equivalent of Ms. Rhoda (see just above) was castor-wheeled on to the Pat ‘Pat-a-cake’ Kenny Show to thrash the Leprechaun.
That would be Eoin ‘End-Game’ Butler, Esquire whose erm, trump card, was his modest claim that he was ‘an Irish speaker’ himself.
Wow !
Re-spect.
The impish implication being that this patois of Pat (in the generic sense) was just too low-level to accommodate his soaring sky-scraping ,erm, ideations.
His argument had all the disarmingly detached power to convince as, say, a drive-by shooting off. Of the mouth, variety, ar ndóigh.Yes, indeed, the same dooradawn whose dingbat anti-patois attitude was forensically disemebowelled last month on this very blogsite by an academic in Drew University, New Jersey.
Call it: ‘Deconstructing the Butler Mentality’.
Incidentally, the campus of this academy featured in the wunnerful Woody Allen movie, erm, ‘Deconstructing Harry’.
It’s quite a custom these days to keep the Leprechaun in quarantine in that Ellis Island of English, the FSS, – to be realeased only during the week of St. Patrick’s Day . This is in tandem with the rigid tendency of the Conforming Communications Confraternity on Liffeyside to churn out an endless supply of C.A.C. and all directed solely at the Twin Targets.
C.A.C. is an acronym for Compulsion And Childabuse which are stencilled on the DNA of the Twin Targets, that duo of second bests, Leprechuan and Popery. In the classic shoneen script, ar ndóigh.
Cac, surprsingly enough, is the Leprechaun for ‘Number 2’. But this is clearly a coincidence.
It used to be that the Leprechaun was released only on March 17 in the the – yipeee ! – only English-speaking country (sic!) in the EU. But, like Bloom’s Day, it is has expanded to inmplicate a full week. And so, is no longer confined to St. Patrick’s Day, such as the Dog Show in the RDS on that day.
The reason for this scarcely needs spelling out: it was found that the one day was not quite sufficient to allow all the Butlers to get in on d’act. D’act being to whack the Master-Race over the noggin with a leprechaun-shaped ladle made of lead. Call it:
THE RDS FACTOR
To Rhododendrons, sika Deer and Squirrels grey
Our conservationists say: St. Valentine’s Day !
This massacre must halt
We cannot to be at fault
And allow our native species disappear this way !
I have come to the conclusion that money is all that matters to unionists politicians. Is Ulster Scots funding a new scheme to milk the system? Dear oh dear you’d expect those hostile to the Uk to milk the system but those loyal to the Uk should be more frugal shouldn’t they?
Nelson was at Oxford??? That is a hell of a trip for a janitor`s job.
A first in physics or such like would you believe?!
In a way, it kinda makes sense, it’s not unheard of for engineers and physicists to be brilliant in a tunnel v isioned sort of way and be dumb at everyday interactions. I believe Dodds is similarly endowed academically.
I despair….
As big Jim Royle would say………Oxford…my arse.
It must rank as highly unusual for someone to attend such a venerable institution and return with such a narrow world view. No university protest politics for our Nelson. Dear dear.