There has been some discussion on passports recently. i found myself chewing over the details at some length .It’s a topic that is rarely discussed in any detail until such time as we are possibly preparing to pack our cases for that four-day city break, only to discover that said document is out of date or even lost . It’s then you realise just what an important little book it really is. Things are possibly about to get more complicated than that ,though.
In light of the burgeoning Brexit movement to leave the EU , many are giving this document more than a simple cursory glance. It is wrapped up in the very idea of citizenship and a sense of identity.Theresa May ,the British Prime Minister has been in the news recently . She has been reported to be about to announce that she plans to end the rights of EU nationals under freedom of movement rules when she triggers Article 50 at the end of the month ,on the 31st March.Her eye is on the possibility of an upsurge of incomers from Bulgaria and Romania before that date.The “Daily Telegraph” has reported that the Prime Minister was expected to soon announce that EU citizens arriving after a specific “cut-off date” sometime within a fortnight around the 15th March , would not be entitled to live in the UK permanently.Those 3.6 million EU citizens who already live in Britain and all those who came before that date would be protected , providing UK citizens living in the UK were equally protected in the EU. This could be construed as the Prime Minister playing hardball in light of future debate as to the shape of Brexit.She looks as though she’s firing a shot across the bows as a debate -opener.
That’s a fair enough play, but how might legislation like that affect any of us living here throughout Ireland? I’m thinking specifically of those Irish citizens both northern and southern who hold Irish EU passports.Will there be checks and curbs put in place ?What about the much talked about “Common Travel Area” ,then?What about the idea of a “soft” or open border?Better still , what about those of us holding Irish passports and especially those having been born and living in the north , with their single Irish EU passport? There is no distinction between northern Irish and southern Irish passport holders at present and why should there be , given that we are allowed this shared identity as a right as Irish people .? Will nationalists , still under the aegis of Westminster be forced to also buy a British passport as well to assert the rights they already pay for within the current political arrangement? Yes, this Brexit is throwing up more potential complications at every turn and is nibbling away at the tenuous relationships we in Ireland have long-shared with the UK; laws and relationships that have been made over many, many years.
Better still ,how will this actually affect British/Irish relationships in the future , given that we are already beginning to foresee real problems with the post -Brexit border? The Irish have always travelled freely between the two landmasses for many generations and were a great part of building the infrastructure of the UK. How does all of this affect the rights of everyone in Ireland from end to end?; from the fellow in Carlow to the girl in Coleraine.Of course there is also dual-citizenship/subjecthood in the mix, especialy in the northern part of Ireland and those with that might not be affected by any changes to come .Some who hold UK passports are also able to apply for Irish ones too and are doing so to cover all the possible bases. In the Republic of Ireland because of the Ireland Act of 1949 , passport holders are currently treated the very same as UK passport holders in the UK but northern and southern holders live in different jurisdictions.There is still no distinction between the holders, north or south, them both having the exact same Irish EU passport. Will this need to be amended in some way, given that all these holders could possibly be be seen as coming from within the single EU community, even though many of them do not? There is no particular distinction in the actual document issued as yet? Will the passport have to be re-edited and re-designed?
So to keep things simple, will we have to buy two passports?; one Irish EU one, still entitling us to remain an EU citizen and also a UK passport entitling us to travel freely within the length and breadth of the UK? I wonder has this been discussed at any level and how will all this go down in future negotiations.
I wonder would a “Two-for-One ” passport package- deal be the solution to this one for Norneverland dwellers.After all the nonsense we have had to put up with for the past hundred years or so in our Irish /British relationships , I think we might all deserve a magnamonious deal something along those lines ,or will we be charged twice-over to declare our Irishness and still retain the benefits and travel arrangements that we are being asked to accept under the UK’s current jurisdiction?.
Even worse than that,Harry. Your driving licence will now have a wee Union Jack in the corner. The new uk passport will be accepted in Saudi Arabia without any visa problems as they were instrumental in Brexit success.
“how might legislation like that affect any of us living here throughout Ireland?
It won’t affect us.
“I’m thinking specifically of those Irish citizens both northern and southern who hold Irish EU passports.Will there be checks and curbs put in place ?’
No. ROI citizens are deemed in UK law not to be foreign citizens. In other words they have the same rights and privileges as UK citizens.
“What about the much talked about “Common Travel Area” ,then?”
It won’t be affected.
“What about the idea of a “soft” or open border?”
Irrelevant.
“Better still , what about those of us holding Irish passports and especially those having been born and living in the north , with their single Irish EU passport? There is no distinction between northern Irish and southern Irish passport holders at present and why should there be , given that we are allowed this shared identity as a right as Irish people .? Will nationalists , still under the aegis of Westminster be forced to also buy a British passport as well to assert the rights they already pay for within the current political arrangement?”
No.
“Yes, this Brexit is throwing up more potential complications at every turn and is nibbling away at the tenuous relationships we in Ireland have long-shared with the UK; laws and relationships that have been made over many, many years.”
It may be more generally, but this particular issue isn’t.
“Better still ,how will this actually affect British/Irish relationships in the future , given that we are already beginning to foresee real problems with the post -Brexit border?”
It won’t affect them.
“The Irish have always travelled freely between the two landmasses for many generations and were a great part of building the infrastructure of the UK. How does all of this affect the rights of everyone in Ireland from end to end?”
It doesn’t affect then.
“.Of course there is also dual-citizenship/subjecthood in the mix, especialy in the northern part of Ireland and those with that might not be affected by any changes to come .Some who hold UK passports are also able to apply for Irish ones too and are doing so to cover all the possible bases.”
There’s no need to apply for passports to.cover bases. Our citizenship rights will be unaffected by Brexit.
“In the Republic of Ireland because of the Ireland Act of 1949 , passport holders are currently treated the very same as UK passport holders in the UK but northern and southern holders live in different jurisdictions.There is still no distinction between the holders, north or south, them both having the exact same Irish EU passport. Will this need to be amended in some way, given that all these holders could possibly be be seen as coming from within the single EU community, even though many of them do not?”
Eh?
“There is no particular distinction in the actual document issued as yet? Will the passport have to be re-edited and re-designed?”
Eh? Why would a passport need to be re-edited and re-designed??
“So to keep things simple, will we have to buy two passports?; one Irish EU one, still entitling us to remain an EU citizen and also a UK passport entitling us to travel freely within the length and breadth of the UK?”
No.
“I wonder has this been discussed at any level and how will all this go down in future negotiations.”
I doubt anyone of importance would waste their time discussing such nonsense.
MT, we can only hope you’re correct in respect of the CTA, this long, long, pre-dated the ECSC 1951 and effectively based the ratio for Hogan’s judgement in Pachero & Anor. v. Minister for Justice Equality and Law Reform where the learned Judge stated that a citizen of Britain might have to show ID on entering the twenty six counties while a citizen from the six counties would have no inhibition in entering the twenty xix counties. It will all depend on how far the twenty six county government, post 2019, will want to bend over to please their Brussels paymaster?
when will the cut off be for some irish passports being accepted at the border when travelling north.with the irish government handing passports out to the likes of these refugees some sort of new laws are going to be needed or there isnt much point of a border.
Mark….MT seems to think that he can dismiss all of these questions with a simple “yes” , “no” or “eh” without the benefit of any discussion or debate by the various players having been made.He is making some assumptions the answers to which have not been argued out yet. In fact it is questionable even yet if Theresa May has much idea of the complicated questions that will have to be answered.As you can imagine , single word answers will never cut it unless they are backed -up with very concise knowledge and that knowledge is not out there yet.
Right MT ..time for you to write your own opinion piece. There are just so many minutes in the day and I would love to spend only a few of them reading about some of your thoughts to get some idea what your motives are , rather than watching you cutting and forever pasting other people’s ideas for want of having anything of your own to say .
So far you have never involved yourself in conversation beyond the level of curt ” yes” and” no” ,like some little spiteful teenaged bitch . I’m hoping you are better than that and have a little more depth but I can’t see it yet and by the sound of things , neither can anyone else reading your bile.Let us hear something original from you for a change, instead ,that might give everyone some larger perspective.Tell us a little about yourself, your background or any damn thing that makes you out to be less one- dimensional than you seem. .You appear to have an obsession with commentary without saying anything at all or adding any new ideas of your own .It’s beginning to appear like obsessive- compulsive behaviour, or even trolling, rather than conversation of any worth or substance . Either come out and play and write something of your own with your own personal opinion ; put it up for scrutiny with your name attached or I will certainly ignore your comments in future.Enough is enough.
PK
I can’t resist, sorry.
“So far you have never involved yourself in conversation beyond the level of curt ” yes” and” no” ,like some little spiteful teenaged bitch .”
Ad hominem, and unnecessary.
“I’m hoping you are better than that and have a little more depth but I can’t see it yet”
Just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
“and by the sound of things , neither can anyone else reading your bile.”
I can, and it isn’t bile; it is, or a lot of it is, an appeal to the facts of the matter. Too many people underestimate the importance of facts.
“Tell us a little about yourself, your background…”
MT’s background is irrelevant to the facts he/she presents, and is really no concern of yours, or mine. I will say one thing, though, from what I can see, MT doesn’t resort to name-calling.
“You appear to have an obsession with commentary without saying anything at all or adding any new ideas of your own .It’s beginning to appear like obsessive- compulsive behaviour, or even trolling, rather than conversation of any worth or substance .”
More speculation, and irrelevant. You tried that approach with me too and it is nothing less than intrusion. An alternative would be for you to curb your curiosity.
“or I will certainly ignore your comments in future.”
If, as you seem to like it so much, if I may offer an opinion of my own – that’s unlikely.
“Either come out and play and write something of your own with your own personal opinion ”
There is no requirement on any commenter to do that. If Jude doesn’t like what we write, he can block us.
On the subject of passports – I don’t currently have a passport, but if I ever have to apply for one, I hope it will be navy blue without any reference to the European Union, and I hope that if there ever is a United Ireland I will be extended a similar courtesy to the one that Irish Nationalists currently resident in the UK are now, and that I will be permitted to keep my British passport.
” I will say one thing, though, from what I can see, MT doesn’t resort to name-calling.” Yes he does. He has repeatedly referred to Sinn Féin as “Provisional Sinn Féin” or “The Provisionals”. But that’s the past. He won’t be doing it again, believe me.
Hello, Jude.
You must forgive this poor unionist his ignorance, but in what way is that to be considered name calling?
And if you are to censor that, why not censor, “spiteful teenaged bitch”?
Or perhaps you find that acceptable?
“So far you have never involved yourself in conversation beyond the level of curt ” yes” and” no””
That is untrue.
“like some little spiteful teenaged bitch ”
Please desist from personal abuse.
“or I will certainly ignore your comments in future.”
If you wish to remain ignorant that is your choice. No skin off my nose.
Can you not remember what has been said in the post that you are answering? Is that why you cut and paste? I have to say that your answering style is useful as it tends to make posters here answer precisely and accurately, which is what your purpose in life seems to be. I suspect that the answers you gave Harry on the passport business were from a unionist perspective and not really relevant to Irish people.
Do you deny the aspirational right of Unionism certain people?
Some might say that was an attempt to limit freedom of thought.
How or why would you aspire to something you already have? And how can you limit freedom of thought?
I didn’t say me, I said people.
I’ll put it another way, is Unionism a legitimate aspiration for Irish citizens living in the RoI?
“I’ll put it another way, is Unionism a legitimate aspiration for Irish citizens living in the RoI?”
Of course it is a legitimate aspiration, it is when it is forced against the majority will of the Irish people which it was in 1921 and which even Margaret thatcher later admitted was wrong.
The right thing to do would be to have an all island debate on what would be best for our futures, including in or out of the UK and let the people of the whole island decide what we want for ourselves
How did “unionism” ever even enter this conversation? It’s about passports.
You don’t see the connection?
It doesn’t have to always follow that the conversation is about unionism or nationalism.Sometimes the unionism/ nationalism debate has nothing to do with the discussion. In this case it was about how passports and in particular, Irish EU passports will work in light of Theresa May’s latest idea in that the Prime Minister is apparently proposing that EU citizens who travel to Britain after she triggers Article 50 will no longer have the automatic right to stay in the UK permanently.
PK
No, it doesn’t always have to follow.
But when you introduce the idea of British Passports and Irish Passports and citizenship and Britain and Ireland and people living in the UK part of Ireland and people living in the Republic of Ireland, honestly, what did you expect?
For me, PF it is simply a discussion as to how these things might work in a practical way in a political situation that is always in flux…I’m not talking about anyone ‘s personal politics, which always have the potential to change throughout anyone’s life.I wasn’t thinking of unionists and nationalists, either of which can hold both passports whatever their politics…for purely practical and pragmatic reasons. What I actually expect is some reasoned thought and maybe a weighing up of the possibilities..Given that we live in a very unique siruation unlike that of anyone else living in either the Republic of Ireland or in England or Wales.
There are all kinds of reasons why people might want specific passports. my Welsh son-in-law wanted to apply for an Irish EC one , thinking that having married my daughter he might be able to …only to find that he would also need to live in the Republic of Ireland for a specific period of time before applying. There are many little details like that which can help us all educate ourselves. It’s not always about this narrow little pool, y’know…
In the event of a re United Ireland ,PF, whether or not you can keep your British passport will depend on the British. As long as you render to Éire what she is due you can have a Tibetan passport for all it will matter. And your grip of history and etymology hasn’t improved.
Do elaborate.
Pay your lawful taxes, obey the laws of the land. Oh and speak only Irish and fly a tricolour 350 days per year. Well the DUP think so anyway. An inquisitions like court will be set up to punish anybody suspected of entertaining pro British thoughts or expressing nostalgia for the old country. Otherwise same old……
?
I think that was a joke ….unfortunately much is lost in translation….
I think so too, PK. Words without expressions are difficult to negotiate.
WTF does that mean? “Words without expressions”? Are you in training to be MT’s apprentice?
Clearly, fiosrach, we are unable to see one another’s facial expressions or listen to each other’s tone of voice.
This limits our communication to one degree or other.
mt,s right i think,it wont really make much difference to us.maybe a 5minute electronic check like going through a toll style border.think its the remoaners trying to keep up the pointless scare stories,eu countries need the brits who are living there while they dont need the 3.5 million living in england so its not much of a negotiating point and isnt what the majority voted for.good opening but for the like of ukip to split the labour vote in any election coming up until they pack up and leave the stage.
“mt,s right i think,it wont really make much difference to us.maybe a 5minute electronic check like going through a toll style border”
This particular issue won’t make any difference whatsoever. We are all UK citizens here, and ROI citizens are treated as UK citizens under UK law.
No. We are not all UK citizens here. I am an Irish citizen with an option of British citizenship should I be so distressed to avail of it. But according the GFA I can be one,the other or both. Agree?
And what’s more,there is no country called ROI
“I suspect that the answers you gave Harry on the passport business were from a unionist perspective and not really relevant to Irish people.”
The answers are simply factual and not from any perspective other than a factual perspective.
“No. We are not all UK citizens here.”
Yes we are.
“I am an Irish citizen with an option of British citizenship should I be so distressed to avail of it.”
No. You’re a dual citizen of the UK and ROI.
“But according the GFA I can be one,the other or both. Agree?”
No. The GFA doesn’t say that.
Pardon me,MT, but I do labour under the wrong interpretation. Are you saying the a person living in the six counties does not have the option of being British, Irish or both as laid down by the GFA . An international treaty lodged with the UN? Can I not hold a mark of citizenship- namely a passport – of both jurisdictions? Think carefully before you answer.
“Do elaborate.”
He’s right. UK citizenship is entirely a matter for the UK and nobody else.
I was referring to his scarcasm about history etc.
I know you were. A bit of levity never goes amiss.
Indeed!
And of course it’s also possible that you are more British than you like to think.
Or the reality that most unionists here are less british than they even realise.
Indeed!
But we’re all probably more related than we like to admit, which is one of the reasons I like to provoke with the idea of a United Ireland in a United Kingdom.
“But we’re all probably more related than we like to admit, which is one of the reasons I like to provoke with the idea of a United Ireland in a United Kingdom.”
I wouldn’t say that was provocative Peter, it is a perfectly reasonable aspiration.
I don’t think Theresa May or the conservatives help much, If someone like Jeremy Corbyn was PM then it would be less abhorrent a prospect.
How do you know all this, MT? You see I have noticed irregularities in your answers before so I am slowly losing faith in you. And by the time I struggle through forty lines of cut and paste which I recognise as the previous post, to your one word answer, I have lost the will to live.
“How do you know all this, MT?”
From reading the relevant documents.
“You see I have noticed irregularities in your answers before so I am slowly losing faith in you.”
What irregularities?
Apologies.
I’ve no idea what the history comments are about.
No problem at all.
Incidentally, I’ve no idea what is meant either, he/she won’t elaborate!
“I’ve no idea what the history comments are about.”
Ya think?
I refer to your post of 7.44 tonight.
Don’t expect any sound anaysis or a sense of perspective ,fiosrach . What some call facts , others call delusion and rightly so. Just expect one -word answers that hang in space like a sour fart in a lift. Don’t expect humour and levity either . Expect sullen pedantry instead.it’s not conversation we’re getting ,but rather some ersatz sort of low-level war-game or a competetition of point-scoring.
All of that scant , laboured information will be buried like scribbled pencilled footnotes in the margins of someone else’s work.There’ll be no detail.Parts will be misconstrued or misunderstood and the misunderstanding will then be answered with even more misunderstanding. Here is the level of knowledge you are dealing with hiding within that waffle …and I quote for your delectation :
”What’s called an ‘Irish citizen’ is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what are called ‘Irish passports’ are available only to such citizens. A UK citizen is a citizen of the UK. There is no citizenship of the island of Ireland: there can’t be, because one can only be a citizen of a state.”
now you can interpret that as something coming from someone who has no clue what he is talking about or you can say the man possibly misunderstands entirely who can or cannot get an Irish passport.I opted for the following :
To which my answer was …”That is completely false, I’m afraid and it is far from being fact….So if an Irish passport , as you say,is only available to a citizen of the Republic of Ireland , then why can I legally have one anywhere in the island of island without having been born in the Republic of Ireland and not having ever lived there? ….I repeat..I can have that document simply because I am an Irishman and that fact alone allows me to have it ….
(no matter where I happen to live or which part of Ireland i was born in}.You really need to think that through again.”
That is what the man believes is the truth , so what more can be said? If the points were well-argued and based on rational sense , there would be a place for conversation , but not at this level of delusion.There is no going back on this one. This riff on passports only led to these latest possible upcoming “passport conundrums “and questions which apparently Theresa May is currently entertaining amd which no -one has actually encountered before ,I think.. which I thought might be intersting to discuss.
Discuss…..? Hah!!!
I cant imagine any circumstances in which I would want to hold a british passport.
PK
Why don’t you just back off attacking people at a personal level?
“Pardon me,MT, but I do labour under the wrong interpretation. Are you saying the a person living in the six counties does not have the option of being British, Irish or both as laid down by the GFA ”
He can have whatever identity he wants. The GFA makes no difference to that. But we are discussing citizenship here.
“An international treaty lodged with the UN? Can I not hold a mark of citizenship- namely a passport – of both jurisdictions? Think carefully before you answer.”
Of course you can ‘hold’ a passport of both jurisdictions. Because you are a citizen of both.
“He can have whatever identity he wants.”
You can choose to believe that if you wish, but it wont make it true.
Irish citizenship and therefore passport entitlement is granted to citizens of the island of Ireland. It is an internationally recognised identity of all 32 counties of this island.
Pre GFA, the Irish constitution recognised the territory of Ireland as all 32 counties.
Post GFA, there is no territorial claim on 6 counties, only an entitlement for the territory to be reunited into ROI and for the status quo to remain until a majority wish for that to happen.
In the mean time, both identities are recognised and both citizenship and identity officially recognised by both Britain and Ireland. No other identity is officially recognised.
Lets take an example.
A person who was born and lived all their life in this part of Ireland from a family who has lived here for generations and no where else.
They are entitled to be either british or irish.
Irish because they were born in Ireland and british as per the GFA, we will remain a part of the UK until such time as we choose to leave.
Now, lets say that person wakes up one morning and decides today they want to be Chinese.
No one will believe them and they will not be recognised as Chinese by China or eligible for a Chinese passport.
What you are struggling to accept is that you are legitimately entitled to Irish citizenship because even though you are northern Irish, you are still Irish
“I refer to your post of 7.44 tonight”
Why? For what purpose do you so refer?
“You can choose to believe that if you wish, but it wont make it true.”
It is true. Why do you think people aren’t able to choose their own identity? Who stops them? How do they stop them?
“Irish citizenship and therefore passport entitlement is granted to citizens of the island of Ireland.”
I know.
“It is an internationally recognised identity of all 32 counties of this island.”
‘Identities’ aren’t internationally recognised. Citizenship, however, is. Southern Irish citizenship (called ‘Irish citizenship’ is internationally recognised in the same way as is the citizenship of all other internationally recognised states.
“Pre GFA, the Irish constitution recognised the territory of Ireland as all 32 counties.
Post GFA, there is no territorial claim on 6 counties, only an entitlement for the territory to be reunited into ROI and for the status quo to remain until a majority wish for that to happen.”
And?
“In the mean time, both identities are recognised and both citizenship and identity officially recognised by both Britain and Ireland. No other identity is officially recognised.”
And how does this stop people identifying as they so wish?
“Now, lets say that person wakes up one morning and decides today they want to be Chinese.
No one will believe them and they will not be recognised as Chinese by China or eligible for a Chinese passport.”
Indeed. But that doesn’t stop them identifying as Chinese if that’s what they want to do.
“What you are struggling to accept is that you are legitimately entitled to Irish citizenship because even though you are northern Irish, you are still Irish. ”
I’m not struggling to accept that at all and nothing that I have said indicates that I’m struggling to accept it. Why would I struggle to accept a simple.matter of fact?
“Indeed. But that doesn’t stop them identifying as Chinese if that’s what they want to do. ”
Of course it doesn’t, but it may make more than a few people think you weren’t quite the full shilling.
Why have you introduced the concept of identity? Are we not dealing in citizenship? One is a legal term the other a life style choice. You cannot hold a British and an Irish passport. You can have dual citizenship which means you do not have to renounce your British citizenship when you apply for an Irish passport. I do not wish to avail of my entitlement to British citizenship. Can I be forced to be a British citizen?
“So if an Irish passport , as you say,is only available to a citizen of the Republic of Ireland , then why can I legally have one anywhere in the island of island without having been born in the Republic of Ireland and not having ever lived there?”
You asked this already and I gave you the very straightforward answer: because you don’t have to be born in the Republic of Ireland or to have lived there to be a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. Anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to citizenship of the Republic.
“Of course it doesn’t”
I’m glad we agree.
” but it may make more than a few people think you weren’t quite the full shilling.”
No doubt.
“Why have you introduced the concept of identity?”
You introduced it when you referred to the ‘option of being British, Irish or both as laid down by the GFA’.
“Are we not dealing in citizenship?”
We were, yes.
“One is a legal term the other a life style choice.”
I know.
“You cannot hold a British and an Irish passport.”
Of course you can. One can ‘hold’ as many passports as countries of which one is a citizen.
“You can have dual citizenship which means you do not have to renounce your British citizenship when you apply for an Irish passport.”
Obviously.
“I do not wish to avail of my entitlement to British citizenship. Can I be forced to be a British citizen?”
You are a British citizen on the same basis as everyone else in the UK.
You can get an application form for an Irish passport and one question is do you hold another passport. If so you must surrender that passport because Irish law does not allow you to be in posession of two valid passports at the same time. Before you jump, you can of course have the two physical passports in a drawer but only one is valid. And I repeat. Can I be forced to be a British citizen? And secondly, there is no such country as the Republic of Ireland or ROI. ThE country’s name is Éire or in the Sacs-Béarla Ireland.
I can’t see anything here about having to surrender passports of other states.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_abroad/passports/applying_for_or_renewing_an_irish_passport.html#l1f4da
I believe that it is possible to have both passports at the same time ,which is partially what the entire article is talking about and why there might be a “special case ” for us all living here to have a special deal( albeit half-jokingly).I think that was really the main point of the piece that has been missed entirely .As for handing in another passport (In the event of dual -citizenship), I don’t think that is the case at all…but It only refers to the previous expired passport, I think.It might then be returned.I believe this because I have several old expired passports stretching back almost fifty years.
I’ve known several people who spent years working abroad who kept two passports, both Irish and British, because each had their own qualities in different countries. There are more British Embassies throughout the world than Irish ones , for example ,if hemight be needed, but Irish passports are also very useful for purely pragmatic reasons where the previous british presence has left a sour taste in the country.That said, the rules may have since been changed within this past ten years.Now with the eU there are currently more changes afoot.
There is national identity and personal identity.
MT confuses the two. I believe deliberately..
MT is entitled to british or irish national identities, he can claim to have the identity of a baboon for all I care, but if is trying to say he can wake up one morning and decide to shave his head and go around telling everyone he is a Mongolian monk then most people will likely consider him a loon.
“Anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to citizenship of the Republic.”
So what was the issue again?
“There is national identity and personal identity.”
A national identity is a personal identity.
“MT confuses the two.I believe deliberately..”
I don’t.
“MT is entitled to british or irish national identities, he can claim to have the identity of a baboon for all I care, but if is trying to say he can wake up one morning and decide to shave his head and go around telling everyone he is a Mongolian monk then most people will likely consider him a loon.”
They would indeed.
“So what was the issue again?”
I’d love to know. Paddykool doesn’t seem to understand this very straightforward fact but has gone off in a huff.
I still can’t see how you think that this following statement you made is a fact when it is not :
“What’s called an ‘Irish citizen’ is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what are called ‘Irish passports’ are available only to such citizens. “
I think you are trying to pickle our heads
Jessica. This is an exact quote from MTon another post :
”What’s called an ‘Irish citizen’ is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what are called ‘Irish passports’ are available only to such citizens. A UK citizen is a citizen of the UK. There is no citizenship of the island of Ireland: there can’t be, because one can only be a citizen of a state.”
What do you make of it? My interpretation is that he believes that Irish passports are only available to citizens of the Republic of Ireland.He seems to think this is a truth and no matter how many times he is told it is not true he cannot comprehend it. Can anybody rationalise this ?
I’m afraid that in the real world this is not reality in any sense.
I think this is the issue.
“A national identity is a personal identity. ”
I would not consider a national identity to be something you can just pick and choose but the actual identity you receive from being part of a nation or geographical region.
There are usually traits passed on in our genes, behavioural and cultural similarities, usually we would support a common flag, anthem and national sporting teams.
The problem for you is we both live in a disputed national territory and you subscribe to being part of another nation within this one which makes you not really fit into either.
“You can get an application form for an Irish passport and one question is do you hold another passport. If so you must surrender that passport because Irish law does not allow you to be in posession of two valid passports at the same time. Before you jump, you can of course have the two physical passports in a drawer but only one is valid.”
That’s something I’ve never heard before. If true, it is a very strange provision, since there is no way to enforce it, it’s widely flouted, and the Southern government has no.power to invalidate a UK passport or any passport other than its own.
Anyway, even if true, it doesn’t stop one being a dual citizen.
“And I repeat. Can I be forced to be a British citizen?”
I’m not sure what you mean by forced. You are a British citizen and have been since you were born. You can renounce it by making application to the Home Office and paying a fee, but otherwise it’s not a.matter of choice: you simply are a UK.citizen. No different from.anyone else in the UK.
“And secondly, there is no such country as the Republic of Ireland or ROI. ThE country’s name is Éire or in the Sacs-Béarla Ireland.”
And its ‘official description’ is Republic of Ireland. I suggest you use this, or Southern Ireland, or the 26 counties, rather than the ‘official name’, which is a.misnomer and causes confusion. Look at the flap Paddykool has got into.
But I wasn’t born in the ROI or Southern Ireland or the 26 cos. Or the Free State. I was born in Ireland. I have an Irish passport and I am an Irish citizen. That’s as far as I go. You,however, were not born in Britain. You were born in Ireland and that’s why you can avail/enjoy Irish citizenship. Remember if you go on holidays using an Irish passport you cannot seek help from the British embassy and vice versa because only one of your passports are valid.
“I would not consider a national identity to be something you can just pick and choose but the actual identity you receive from being part of a nation or geographical region.”
People.will ascribe identities to others, for sure, but ultimately identity is personal.
“The problem for you is we both live in a disputed national territory and you subscribe to being part of another nation within this one which makes you not really fit into either.”
We don’t live in a disputed national territory. NI is recognised as part of the UK.
“We don’t live in a disputed national territory. NI is recognised as part of the UK.”
I know, but it is also recognised as part of Ireland and a majority of the Irish people want Ireland to be united which may or may not be as part of the UK.
“I know, but it is also recognised as part of Ireland and a majority of the Irish people want Ireland to be united which may or may not be as part of the UK.”
So why did you say it is a disputed territory?
“So why did you say it is a disputed territory?”
Because it remains a disputed territory as any return of a visible border will reveal.
The GFA is a peace accord between the two nations involved in the dispute, they are the co guarantors of that agreement and either can tear it up.
Brexit has potentially made that a possibility.
“But I wasn’t born in the ROI or Southern Ireland or the 26 cos. Or the Free State. I was born in Ireland. I have an Irish passport and I am an Irish citizen.”
As has been stated several times already, you don’t need to have been born in the South to be a Southern citizen. Their citizenship laws apply extra-territorially.
“That’s as far as I go. You,however, were not born in Britain. You were born in Ireland and that’s why you can avail/enjoy Irish citizenship.”
Yes obviously I am entitled to be a Southern citizen on the same basis as you and everyone else in Ireland.
“Remember if you go on holidays using an Irish passport you cannot seek help from the British embassy and vice versa because only one of your passports are valid.”
That’s not true. If I had two passports I could bring both and avail of help from either embassy.
you can only travel on one of them eg visa stamp
and what is a ‘southern citizen’?
MT, Fiosrach, Jessica, PK, what do you love about being Irish or British?
For me it’s not actually a matter of loving something about being Irish or British , Dominic.It comes down to loving who you have become . For me , being Irish is a simple fact of being born on the island of Ireland soI am simply Irish for that reason and perfectly happy with that notion .It is as uncomplicated as that. My particular sense of identity encompasses many aspects of culture from Ireland but also from throughout the world in art, literature and music. I love many things and my family is composed of and also embraces many nationalities , sexualities , races and cultures.
Ireland?… I think ,is a beautiful country with a long history of culture and folklore which has great depth. Politics are another thing . Politically it has be badly abused because the Irish people have been bullied and manipulated into theinvidious situation that we now have to live with, but maybe that will change eventually with some radical thinking ,good sound hate- laws and a real sense of equality. We have none of that working at present and the only real way I can see it ever working properly is when we have an independent country , possibly on a federal system of some sort where people are not obsessed with flag-waving and learn what “culture” really is .
I agree with a lot of what you say, just trying a different perspective to the “normal”.
plenty of reasons there why we need closed borders and a points system for entry.its been proved beyond reasonable doubt the open door policy doesnt work,thats the main reason we have arrived at brexit.
PF too.
Dominic
On being Irish and British.
Irish first.
I like the landscape, particularly the coast where the the island falls sheer into the sea at Mizen and Moher and the beaches are bitten by the Atlantic in places like Dingle and Donegal.
I like that there are places to go which are still. I like that Newgrange is older than Stonehenge and the Pyramids of Giza; and I like the fact that the Boyne is greater and older than our divisions.
I like Georgian Dublin and Industrial Belfast – and I like that so much of ‘Irish’ linen was made in ‘Ulster’.
I like the diversity of the people and the regional accents and traditions. I like the Celtic influences on Christianity and like the Early Christian influence on our arts and crafts – skills which remain in Ireland’s artisan industry to the present day: glass, willow, ceramic, wood, metal, jewellery, wax and canvas.
And I like marching bands and music sessions in pubs on the Bera Peninsula. And I like that some people say that the Tuatha De Danann still inhabit the underworld and that many hope they do. And I like that Cú Chulainn ‘whipped’ the men of Connacht in defence of Ulster!
And I like the light: the half-light and the soft-light, and the way a single beam can light up a single field on a distant shore.
And the thing is this, what is true of Ireland is, in many ways, true of all these islands.
There is breadth and diversity in people, language, music, literature, history and art. And to be British broadens and enlivens our experience and gathers together the greater family of Celt, Angle, Norman, Irish, Scots, Welsh and English.
And that is why I am Irish and British and a Unionist, for Unionism, at it’s best, brings people together, seeking unity in diversity for the benefit of all.
Someone like you should be First Minister PF. Great vision of Ireland
Thank you; I’m glad you like it.
“Because it remains a disputed territory as any return of a visible border will reveal.”
But it doesn’t. NI is not disputed. It’s recognised internationally as part of the UK. A visible border won’t alter that.
“The GFA is a peace accord between the two nations involved in the dispute, they are the co guarantors of that agreement and either can tear it up.”
It’s not a peace accord between two nations involved in a dispute. The UK and ROI weren’t at war and weren’t even in dispute.
“Brexit has potentially made that a possibility.”
It hasn’t. It’s always been possible for either UK or ROI to ‘tear up’ the GFA.
“As has been stated several times already, you don’t need to have been born in the South to be a Southern citizen. Their citizenship laws apply extra-territorially.”
No they don’t, the constitution states it is limited to the island of Ireland unless you qualify by other means no other territory outside the island of Ireland qualifies.
I considered the dropping of articles 2 and 3 to be wrong as it risked losing that entitlement, but on this blog it was pointed out that entitlement remains through legislation. I will have to take their word but my preference would be to leave the UK and sort it once and for all.
“No they don’t, the constitution states it is limited to the island of Ireland unless you qualify by other means no other territory outside the island of Ireland qualifies.”
Yes they do. The territorial extent of the state extends only to the border with NI.
“But it doesn’t. NI is not disputed. It’s recognised internationally as part of the UK. A visible border won’t alter that. ”
It is recognised by a majority overall in Ireland as part of the Irish territory which is the island of Ireland and that comes first.
It is also recognised internationally as part of Ireland.
It was accepted as part of the GFA that part of Ireland will remain under british control until a majority choose to unite the country once again or the peace agreement breaks down. The GFA was not a resolution but a means to a peaceful resolution.
“The UK and ROI weren’t at war and weren’t even in dispute.”
No, they weren’t at war but there was a territorial dispute, that is a fact?
Unionism started a conflict over its leadership spreading fear and starting a campaign of violence against the civil rights movement and later the catholic population which brought the IRA back into existence but the conflict was not initially at least over the territorial dispute.
“Brexit has potentially made that a possibility. It hasn’t. It’s always been possible for either UK or ROI to ‘tear up’ the GFA.”
Brexit has already caused a renewed territorial dispute over Lough Foyle when Brokenshire claimed London control of the entire lough which was officially rejected by Dublin.
It will be interesting to see where this goes after article 50 is triggered.
“Yes they do. The territorial extent of the state extends only to the border with NI.”
Now we are going around in circles again MT.
Articles 2 and 3 were changed from stating the whole island formed one “national territory” to “it is the entitlement and birth right of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation”
As part of the Irish nation, we are entitled not only to Irish citizenship but to have that identity recognised in our own land, something which is still being denied to us along with political disenfranchisement which still needs to be addressed.
“What do you make of it? My interpretation is that he believes that Irish passports are only available to citizens of the Republic of Ireland.He seems to think this is a truth and no matter how many times he is told it is not true he cannot comprehend it. Can anybody rationalise this ?”
Obviously ‘Irish passports’ are only available to citizens of ROI. By definition only a citizen is entitled to a passport.
From the Southern government’s own online information service: “A passport is an internationally recognised travel document confirming your identity and nationality and *you are only entitled to an Irish passport if you are an Irish citizen*.”!
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/travel_abroad/passports/applying_for_or_renewing_an_irish_passport.html
“I’m afraid that in the real world this is not reality in any sense.”
It would seem PK that your ‘real world’ is more like a fantasy world.
ROI is a football team -not a country
You really are a very muddled character MT. Irish passports are available to every single person living in the entire island of Ireland. That is why fiosrach ,, Jessica , myself and countless millions of others were able to get them and it is why many living in England are currently applying for them to retain that EU status. Even you ,MT are entitled to one I’d imagine… How many times do you need to be told this before it sinks in? You really do love to take a circular walk to arrive at the very same reality.
“It is recognised by a majority overall in Ireland as part of the Irish territory which is the island of Ireland and that comes first.
It is also recognised internationally as part of Ireland.”
This makes no sense. Geography isn’t the subject of international recognition.
“No, they weren’t at war but there was a territorial dispute, that is a fact?”
No. ROI recognised NI’s membership of the UK and had done so expressly in international treaties since 1973.
“Brexit has already caused a renewed territorial dispute over Lough Foyle when Brokenshire claimed London control of the entire lough which was officially rejected by Dublin.”
It hasn’t. That dispute long predates Brexit.
I agree with you, but MT does not want to accept or acknowledge that we in the 6 counties, in spite of the GFA remain a part of the Irish nation Harry.
It is not only MT who is confused about this, the southern establishment have fostered and encouraged that notion to appease the british state and unionism in Ireland for an easy life.
They should be ashamed of themselves. Have we not been through enough already?
Brexit has changed things though and a re awakening of Irish nationalism as a result of english nationalism since brexit is stirring all over the country once again.
Eventually his denials will become a pointless irrelevance.
“Articles 2 and 3 were changed from stating the whole island formed one “national territory” to “it is the entitlement and birth right of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation”
Indeed. And even before they were amended the constitution already stated that the territorial extent of the state corresponded only with 26 counties.
“As part of the Irish nation, we are entitled not only to Irish citizenship but to have that identity recognised in our own land, something which is still being denied to us along with political disenfranchisement which still needs to be addressed.”
I’m afraid that doesn’t alter the very obvious reality that the ROI state extends territorially only over 26 counties. You might notice, for example, when you drive from Dublin to Belfast.the road signs change, the lines on the side of the road change colour, different police patrol the roads, etc..That’s because you cross a border.
ROI is not a country. It is a football team.
“I agree with you, but MT does not want to accept or acknowledge that we in the 6 counties, in spite of the GFA remain a part of the Irish nation Harry.”
When have I not accepted or acknowledged that people in the six counties aren’t ‘part of the Irish nation’. Why lie?
“It is not only MT who is confused”
I’m not confused.
“Eventually his denials will become a pointless irrelevance.”
What denials?
“It hasn’t. That dispute long predates Brexit.”
But I though you said there was no territorial dispute MT?
A bit of a lip up there I feel.
Anyway, I agree, it has been a long term dispute also nullified through the GFA as Lough Foyle has been under the control of the Loughs agency which is a cross border body setup in the GFA.
As part of the Brexit hard ball, the conservatives are taking as many bargaining chips as they can to get the best deal and they are treating people so appallingly it is disgusting.
Even the lords showed more common decency today.
Why anyone here would want to be part of the britain which has revealed its true ugliness post brexit I don’t know.
“That’s because you cross a border.”
I am well aware there is a jurisdictional border and part of Ireland remains occupied, no one has denied that. That has long been the problem in Ireland.
It does not change the fact that the Irish nation extends to the whole island and that citizenship is extended to the whole of the Irish nation and not limited to 26 counties.
“I’m not confused.”
You are very confused,
You said there was no territorial dispute then said the current one predated brexit.
Jessica.. Mt is the most confused contributor to this blog. He still thinks that he cannot buy an irish passport even though he can .
“But I though you said there was no territorial dispute MT?
A bit of a lip up there I feel.”
I said Northern Ireland wasn’t a disputed territory, and it isn’t, notwithstanding that one minor aspect of the border is technically disputed.
“Anyway, I agree, it has been a long term dispute also nullified through the GFA as Lough Foyle has been under the control of the Loughs agency which is a cross border body setup in the GFA.”
This is true, and won’t change as a result of Brexit.
“I am well aware there is a jurisdictional border”
Then why are you trying to argue that the territory of Southern Ireland extends over the whole island?
“and part of Ireland remains occupied, no one has denied that. That has long been the problem in Ireland.”
No part of Ireland is occupied or ever has been.
“It does not change the fact that the Irish nation extends to the whole island and that citizenship is extended to the whole of the Irish nation and not limited to 26 counties.”
‘Nations’ are not territories, but communities of peoples. We are discussing the Irish state not ‘nation’. The Southern Irish state extends only over 26 counties, but its citizenship law extends extra-territorially, so that people in Northern Ireland may be citizens. It is odd that Paddykool doesn’t understand this, and also odd that you originally acknowledged this but now appear to be arguing against reality.
“You are very confused,”
I’m not.
“You said there was no territorial dispute then said the current one predated brexit.”
I didn’t. But, even if I did, that’s not what you were claiming I was confused about. You’re moving the goalposts again.
“Jessica.. Mt is the most confused contributor to this blog. He still thinks that he cannot buy an irish passport even though he can .”
Please don’t lie. I’ve never thought that I cannot buy an ‘Irish passport’ and thus it’s not possible for me still to think this.
I’ve stated many times on this blog that people in NI are entitled to Southern passports on account of being entitled to Southern citizenship.
I’ve never come across anyone more confused about such a straightforward subject as you are in relation to this.
What’s with the ‘southern’ bit? how do you feel about the GFA, MT?
Yes, but why are people in the six counties entitled to Irish citizenship?
And just because the Free State partitionist parties say that the national territory is only 26 counties that doesn’t make it right or just. They would sell their grannies to shake us off.
“you can only travel on one of them eg visa stamp”
The vast majority of travelling doesn’t require a visa stamp.
Well deal with one that does,then. Turkey?
“You really are a very muddled character MT. Irish passports are available to every single person living in the entire island of Ireland. That is why fiosrach ,, Jessica , myself and countless millions of others were able to get them and it is why many living in England are currently applying for them to retain that EU status. Even you ,MT are entitled to one I’d imagine… How many times do you need to be told this before it sinks in?”
Another statement of the obvious. I’m well aware of this and have stated it and acknowledged it several times. Nobody is disputing it.
Clearly it’s you who is muddled. You don’t even know what you are arguing about.
If you are not confused why would you say:”What’s called an ‘Irish citizen’ is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what are called ‘Irish passports’ are available only to such citizens. ”
You say you know they are “only available to citizens of the the republic”. when you know that citizens who are not of the the republic can have them too.
you appear to have no answer so you respond with an answer to a different question..
“I believe that it is possible to have both passports at the same time”
Of course it is. Fiosrach is talking nonsense.
“As for handing in another passport (In the event of dual -citizenship), I don’t think that is the case at all…but It only refers to the previous expired passport, I think.It might then be returned.I believe this because I have several old expired passports stretching back almost fifty years.”
“That said, the rules may have since been changed within this past ten years.Now with the eU there are currently more changes afoot.”
Highly unlikely.
You can have 400 passports in your drawers but I am referring to concurrently valid ones.
some sort of review on passports will have to be done,the south handing out passports to these new arrivals,then them thinking they can come across the border and set up shop.like if you pass your driving test today your licence wont give you the same categories as a licence got twenty years ago passports will have to change to suit brexit.so some sort of electronic checks at the border will have to be in place.
Billy, In case it has escaped your notice we are talking about the possibility that Theresa May may place sanctions on Irish EU passport holders, either north or south in Ireland , who go to work and live in England . Her possible plan is to restrict EU members so the question is how this this might affect Irish people who go there to work or live, given that the Irish passport does not say whether or not you are from the north or from the south .
like i said some sort of review will have to be done on passports handed out willy nilly by the dublin government to refugees and their ilk who arnt irish but through eu rules have somehow got their hands on irish passports.irish people will be fine the new passport checks will throw them up clear and red flag the wronguns,in this electronic world now ime sure they will have something in place.
After all of that the question that was originally mooted failed to be discussed at all.Where does a person from the six counties stand with their Irish passport being designated as the very same as an EU member born in Dublin when they enter or live in the UK of the future….given that they will be seen simply as an EU member no different from someone born in theRepublic of Ireland.The Irish passport provides no distinction as to whether or not they are under the jurisdiction of either Dublin or Westminster, but they are still seen as coming from inside the EU ?That was the idea that I thought needed teasing out.
its not irish people in their own country that will be the problem travelling back and forward over the border.dublin giving passports to refugees and their ilk who then try and use them to travel into the uk will be the problem.so we need to lay the blame for any hassle at the new checkpoints where they belong.
One idea at a time, harry
It seems apparent to me that individuals like PF and MT might be interested in referring to themselves as both British and Irish when it suits, whereas most Nationalists are content being just Irish. We have no interest in a British identity.
” individuals like PF and MT might be interested in referring to themselves as both British and Irish when it suits, ”
What do you mean, “when it suits”?
Anyway, see my comments above about being British and Irish.
“We have no interest in a British identity.”
And that’s fine.
Fascinating stuff guys.
MT
If you can only apply for a Irish passport if you are a Irish citizen, am I automatically since I was born in Northern Ireland a Irish citizen?
Basically whether you apply for just one, both or none passport is everyone by virtue of being born in Northern Ireland by default a British and Irish citizen?
Only if you want to be,Scott. I gather from these posts that you can’t be forced to be either but can avail of the advantages of both. Unless you have principles that is.
Harry, are you suggesting that maintaining the common travel area between Britain and Ireland only is discriminatory if we are members of the EU?
If so I would agree and we should either leave the EU or drop the common travel area with the UK altogether.
My preference would be to drop the common travel area arrangement.
“I still can’t see how you think that this following statement you made is a fact when it is not : “What’s called an ‘Irish citizen’ is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what are called ‘Irish passports’ are available only to such citizens. “”
What’s not factual about it? It’s a statement of the obvious.
MT…in reference to the statement :
”What’s called an ‘Irish citizen’ is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what are called ‘Irish passports’ are available ONLY to such citizens. A UK citizen is a citizen of the UK. There is no citizenship of the island of Ireland: there can’t be, because one can only be a citizen of a state.”
These words are yours but the word to concentrate on is the word “ONLY”.The passport is not “ONLY” available to citizens of the Republic of Ireland.That is borne out by all those outside of the Republic of Ireland who have these passports.
This is why I say the statement is patently untrue and in no way factual ,because the passport is available to many more people than that.In fact I have never been a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and I have an Irish EU password. It is that simple and I still cannot see why you do not understand this.
“If you are not confused why would you say:”What’s called an ‘Irish citizen’ is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, and what are called ‘Irish passports’ are available only to such citizens. ””
By way of explanation, because you appear to be under a misapprehension about what an ‘Irish citizen’ is. You seem to think there is some.mythical 32-county state of which we can be citizens.
“You say you know they are “only available to citizens of the the republic”. when you know that citizens who are not of the the republic can have them too.”
I don’t know that because it’s not true. There is no state on earth gives out passports to non-citizens.
We’ve even posted southern government information thst states passports are only.issued to citizens.
“” I will say one thing, though, from what I can see, MT doesn’t resort to name-calling.” Yes he does. He has repeatedly referred to Sinn Féin as “Provisional Sinn Féin” or “The Provisionals”. But that’s the past. He won’t be doing it again, believe me.”
Jude what is your issue with the term Provisional and why do you wish to censor it? Why do you never explain your reason for this censorship?
It’s a bit like Catholic and Roman Catholic,MT. You British wouldn’t understand.
“Well deal with one that does,then. Turkey?”
You don’t need a visa to visit Turkey.
But even if you did, so what?
If you ever visited Turkey you would know that you buy an entry visa at the airport and a stamp is put into your passport. No stamp no entry. Just to show you that you are only right most of the time.
“you appear to have no answer so you respond with an answer to a different question..”
No answer to what?
“After all of that the question that was originally mooted failed to be discussed at all.”
This is untrue. I answered it in my first post.
“Where does a person from the six counties stand with their Irish passport being designated as the very same as an EU member born in Dublin when they enter or live in the UK of the future….given that they will be seen simply as an EU member no different from someone born in theRepublic of Ireland.”
In the same place as they stand today. ROI citizens are not.considers foreign under UK law. They have the same rights and privileges as UK citizens.
“The Irish passport provides no distinction as to whether or not they are under the jurisdiction of either Dublin or Westminster, but they are still seen as coming from inside the EU ?That was the idea that I thought needed teasing out”
This makes no sense. An Irish passport is issued by the ROI. It has nothing to do with the UK.
Post Brexit, ‘Irish citizens’ in the UK will.continue to be treated as though they were UK citizens.
“Yes, but why are people in the six counties entitled to Irish citizenship?”
Because the southern parliament passed legislation so entitling them .
But what right has the Free State legislature to extend its passport facility to a part of the UK? I could understand it when the constitution claimed all of the island but that is no longer the case.
“You can have 400 passports in your drawers but I am referring to concurrently valid ones”
So are Paddykool and I.
“If you can only apply for a Irish passport if you are a Irish citizen, am I automatically since I was born in Northern Ireland a Irish citizen?”
You are entitled to be a so-called Irish citizen.
“Basically whether you apply for just one, both or none passport is everyone by virtue of being born in Northern Ireland by default a British and Irish citizen?”
Everyone is by default a UK citizen and everyone is entitled also to be a ROI citizen if they so wish.
So by default everyone born in the NI are British citizens ok I get that, but how then do I “activate” the option of also being a Irish citizen?
It can’t be by applying for a ROI passport because you have said you must be a Irish citizen to be able to get that travel document.
You got it Scott…..Something that MT has failed to get his head around completely and has argued about or ignored in turn….As far as MT is concerned you have to already be an Irish citizen of the Republic of Ireland to get an Irish passport and yet we folks born in the six counties who are not born into the Republic of Ireland can apply even though we are not of the republic and in fact might not even be republicans at all!
I don’t know the answer PK that’s why I’m asking.
MT always seems have a decent grasp of the facts and despite often being the target of attack (I think you even referred to him/her as a teenage bitch tut tut) never makes things personal.
Perhaps a simpler example would be is a baby born this morning in the RVH automatically, under law both a Irish citizen and British citizen? Are we all dual citizens by default?
Well Scott, given that we can have either an Irish EC passport or one issued from the UK at the moment of registering our birth…or slightly later, when the new parents get around to it(!) , I would say that at this moment in time we can be both things (as I merrily argued before as the Schrödinger’s cat syndrome).
We can be both in the EU and not in it at the very same moment in time..that’s a lovely concept. That neat little conundrum mirrors this new one I’m currently talking about that turned into the usual bitchfest instead of a little quieter thought and discussion and it’s getting a little mileage although not necessaily sticking to the original gist at all times.
I would say we really are dual -citizens by default with the very best of both worlds ,which is why I’m now arguing for the idea of a double-passport package to make this all legal, hopefully at a discounted rate !!!I From my point of view we deserve the best after all the hassle we’ve put up with.Obviously others will not agree and will prefer to cut off their noses to spite their faces , but hey …it’s always been like that in this place , eh?
double passport and make it legal…that would then lead to ..we are a special case argument next..undermining the will of the people.
“If you ever visited Turkey you would know that you buy an entry visa at the airport and a stamp is put into your passport. No stamp no entry. Just to show you that you are only right most of the time.”
I have visited Turkey and don’t recall that but I’ll take your word for it.
Now, what point are you making and how is it relevant?
Just to show you that you can be wrong. When I see one mistake I automatically suspect the rest of your answers. If I can put Harry’s point. He means how will the uk authorities know if you are a free stater with an Irish/EU passport or a resident of the escheated counties with an Irish/ EU passport and will it make any difference?
Yeah, that’s about it ,fiosrach…why is that such a big deal?
“But what right has the Free State legislature to extend its passport facility to a part of the UK? I could understand it when the constitution claimed all of the island but that is no longer the case.”
Domestically it has every right to give citizenship to whoever it wants. In international law it can be argued that it is illegal to do so without the consent of the state whose citizens have been conferred citizenship. However such consent was expressly given by the UK in 1998.
“He means how will the uk authorities know if you are a free stater with an Irish/EU passport or a resident of the escheated counties with an Irish/ EU passport and will it make any difference?”
It doesn’t make any difference since there is no distinction in UK law between UK and ROI citizens.
But there soon may be.
“So by default everyone born in the NI are British citizens ok I get that, but how then do I “activate” the option of also being a Irish citizen?
It can’t be by applying for a ROI passport because you have said you must be a Irish citizen to be able to get that travel document.”
There is no activation required. That is what changed in 2001 following the GFA. You can regard yourself as a 26-county citizen of you wish and you will be accepted as one as and when appropriate or necessary.
“You got it Scott….”
Got what?
“Something that MT has failed to get his head around completely and has argued about or ignored in turn….As far as MT is concerned you have to already be an Irish citizen of the Republic of Ireland to get an Irish passport and yet we folks born in the six counties who are not born into the Republic of Ireland can apply even though we are not of the republic and in fact might not even be republicans at all!”
People born in NI are entitled as of right to be ROI citizens. It doesn’t matter that we’re not ‘of the Republic’.
“Perhaps a simpler example would be is a baby born this morning in the RVH automatically, under law both a Irish citizen and British citizen? Are we all dual citizens by default?”
Assuming one of its parents is a UK or ROI citizen, then the baby is automatically a British citizen and automatically entitles to be a Southern Irish citizen.
Unfortunately the reality Peter, is that for most Irish for most of our recent history, the british did little to broaden or enliven our experiences or bring us together. The reality is the british chopped down our forests and raped our natural resources so that today we still rely heavily on imports for wood and resource supplies.
The british far from bringing us together, have tried many times to eradicate the Irish, put us down, steal or burn down our land and homes or murder our men women and children without prejudice. We were ruled with an Iron fist, made second rate citizens in our own lands, discriminated against and in the end divided to keep some sort of foothold in our country.
To say unionism brings people together is a joke. For generations it brought orangemen and bigots together to try and march over the rights of catholics and abused their control over police to enforce their will.
“seeking unity in diversity for the benefit of all”
You would need to explain that one to me.
Unionism did not seek unity, it seeks to maintain the partition of our country and division of our people.
Like it or not, Arlene sums up unionism the most accurately, unionism is about looking after your own.
As Arlene says, she works for her community only.
Irish Republicans would be as likely to fall out and fight with each other and unfortunately we will never be able to emulate the unity among our own community that unionism is capable off. It is a british trait and alien to Ireland which has always been clan based and disjointed.
You wont get a lot of support throughout this island for that fantasy fiction about the british or unionists bringing us all together.
I will however accept that you come from a good place and it is a beautiful response filled with well meaning.
Unfortunately my own view would be that unionism deliberately and pro actually seeks to prevent those things from happening.
Jessica
““seeking unity in diversity for the benefit of all”
You would need to explain that one to me.”
Sometimes peoples are greater than the sum of their parts, and in our archipelago we can be strengthened by working together and appreciating one another’s differences instead of pulling apart.
Perhaps we need a ‘New Unionism’.
“Irish Republicans would be as likely to fall out and fight with each other and unfortunately we will never be able to emulate the unity among our own community that unionism is capable off.”
You really think ‘unionism’ is any more united?
“In this case it was about how passports and in particular, Irish EU passports will work in light of Theresa May’s latest idea in that the Prime Minister is apparently proposing that EU citizens who travel to Britain after she triggers Article 50 will no longer have the automatic right to stay in the UK permanently”
It’s been explained to you twice that it won’t make any difference because ‘Irish citizens’ are treated the same as UK citizens under UK law.
But that may change soon. You can’t have migrants coming into the Free State, getting a passport and then slipping into Great Britain via South Armagh.
Well, that’s what I’m talking about too fiosrach.The EU doesn’t stop at the docks or at Dublin Airport. The EU will bleed into the north via the border, but when you go from there across to England …then what ….and what about your EU passport ….or is it that only Irish EU passportsare going to work as in days gone by or will the same restrictions that Theresa May is about to impose on other EU members coming from Romania who might filter through Ireland going to be working by a different set of rules from the Irish going to England?Also are the northern Irish with EU passports going to be separated too?I’m wondering how it will be done without owning two passports.
no,we will be fine a driving licence will do us for travelling in the uk.i dont understand your concern about passports,and what eu members coming from romania has to do with us in the north.
Not to mention ‘ignorant little unionist scumbag prick’, which Jude let stay despite a complaint.
He won’t explain why hrs censoring Provisional or what his objection is.
Huh?Are you still sore at being compared to a little bitch MT? You’ve got to admit you are a bit bitchy, are you not? Maybe it’s you feminine side coming out ? Then again , I’ve made the mistake before of thinking that the writer might be of the feminine persuasion and you might even be as macho as all get go. There are some who would wear that bitchyness with pride and never file their nails again., mind…
Anyway I don’t remember ever calling anyone an “ignorant little unionist scumbag prick” ,ever in my life. I couldn’t care less if you are “an ignorant little unionist scumbag prick” or an “ignorant little nationalist scumbag prick” , just as long as you stop cutting and pasting all over the place and make some reasoned conversation that isn’t always about unionists and republicans. and without the yes /no answers.Now that would be a great change for the better..
By any chance do you write from a rabbit hole, PK?
Way too obscure PF….sounds like a Burroughs’ cut-up to me actually….
Carroll
Not our friend Lewis…more likely William, methinks…
“about the possibility that Theresa May may place sanctions on Irish EU passport holders, either north or south in Ireland , who go to work and live in England . Her possible plan is to restrict EU members so the question is how this this might affect Irish people who go there to work or live, given that the Irish passport does not say whether or not you are from the north or from the south ”
You’re suggesting May will only place restrictions on working in England?
Yep MT …That is the gossip filtering out at the moment …The Prime Minister is expected to say that EU citizens who travel to Britain after she triggers Article 50 will no longer have the automatic right to stay in the UK permanently.
They will instead apparently be subject to migration curbs after Britain leaves the European Union, which could include a new visa regime and restricted access to benefits..Given that “EU citizens” means just that , that is really what this whole thing is about and how might it have an effect on any of us…I read it as her playing hardball in advance. If you have any other interpretations feel free .Again , it might just be a kite-flying exercise to test the waters before negotiations ,or simple journalistic rumour.
“But there soon may be.”
Why do you think that?
See Harry’s 8.01 post. Hard times to come?
“But that may change soon. You can’t have migrants coming into the Free State, getting a passport and then slipping into Great Britain via South Armagh.”
A migrant from.outside the British Isles wouldn’t be able to get a passport unless he had an entitlement to ROI citizenship, which is highly unlikely.
The Free State is hardly likely to burst themselves,protecting the UK borders especially if the atmosphere is soured.
why will they want to come,under the new laws it will be all changed,no benefits,unemployable,no housing,ect.ime sure they will be happy staying in the south until the eu breaks up.
What ever we need Peter, it certainly has to be new.
Unfortunately Theresa May is not pushing things in that direction however.
Out of curiosity, where would your politics be minus the orange green in terms of left, centre right?
Centre right. I believe in a free market as far as is morally possible, but which would also allow for governmental interventions such as a minimum wage, and with generous (albeit limited) State protection for citizens who fall on hard times and into ill-health.
I suppose you could call it capitalism with compassion and a society in which everyone contributes for the benefit of the other through taxation e.g for health, education, security, infrastructure etc.
I’m also morally conservation but believe in freedom of religion and conscience.
People should be encouraged to work hard for themselves, to be generous towards others and to take personal responsibility.
“I would say we really are dual -citizens by default with the very best of both worlds ,which is why I’m now arguing for the idea of a double-passport package to make this all legal, ”
That would pretty much be a united Ireland inside the UK Harry.
Would you be prepared to leave the EU to have that?
The “dual -passport” thing is me making a little joke , Jessica. As someone else has pointed out ,a little levity is often lost in the hard ,cold print. At the same time it is a joke with a jag , because we are unfortunately about to be EU members and Non-. EU members at the exact same moment in time here in Norneverland if we hold an Irish EU passport..I have no wish to abandon the idea of being part of a wide EU so I’m wondering about the repercussions of that choice, given that I am still under the jurisdiction of Westminster as well.
I’m thinking that none of this has been properly thought through by Westminster and that what happens to the Irish is the very last thing that Westminster has considered when they talk about restrictions involving EU members holding EU passports and working in the UK.They are thinking more of their “own” close at hand.
If EU passport holders from Ireland are given some kind of special status which no other EU citizen from anywhere else in Europe is allowed in a possible future…in relation to staying and working in the UK, I’m simply wondering how it will be handled and will it really all operate as it does at present…and how exactly do we know that fact .I’m wondering about the nuts and bolts of that unique situation in which Irish EU passport holders north and south and ,in effect ,EU members will operate within after Brexit.
Assumptions are being made without any real evidence or detail and I’m far from sure that the British government have thought through all of the detail yet. The bottom line is that they are more worried about the south of England than anywhere else. As you say in your example , what will be in it for the authorities in the Republic of Ireland to enforce border controls and will they alone be simply expected to pay to enforce it? It’s sounding a bit like Trump expecting the Mexicans to build a wall along the border.You know what the Mexican answer was to that one , eh? These are things worth talking about. The same applies to those in Northern Ireland who will most likely be streamed through the same EU passport controls as any other EU member in a future UK…just as EU members are streamed through any other European airport….even though they may have “dual-citizenship” here. will they need a British passport and also an Irish passport just to save any future hassle within the UK?
“which is why I’m now arguing for the idea of a double-passport package to make this all legal”
What do you mean by a double-passport package? What would be its purpose? And what would it be making legal?
I mean a little cut-price deal for two passports that will alleviate the cost of buying two separate books, given that we have a unique form of dual- citizenship here. These documents are not cheap and we uniquely are entitled to at least the idea of dual-citizenship of a kind here. Maybe the two governments could agree on something novel that will give us poor beggars ,living in the isolation of Norneverland ,stranded in a situation beyond any real control of our destinies, some little dispensation .a fire-sale deal, maybe?
” but when you go from there across to England …then what ….and what about your EU passport ….or is it that only Irish EU passportsare going to work as in days gone by or will the same restrictions that Theresa May is about to impose on other EU members coming from Romania who might filter through Ireland going to be working by a different set of rules from the Irish going to England?”
This is now the third time this has been explained to you: under UK law, ROI citizens are treated as though they were UK citizens. So there will be no restrictions
“Also are the northern Irish with EU passports going to be separated too?I’m wondering how it will be done without owning two passports.”
What’s with the obsession with passports?
There won’t be any restriction on ROI citizens, wherever they live. And those in the north are UK citizens anyway.
“Anyway I don’t remember ever calling anyone an “ignorant little unionist scumbag prick” ,ever in my life.”
That’ll be because you didn’t.
“Yep MT …That is the gossip filtering out at the moment …The Prime Minister is expected to say that EU citizens who travel to Britain after she triggers Article 50 will no longer have the automatic right to stay in the UK permanently.”
So it’s not only in relation to England. It’s the whole UK.
So why did you answer in the affirmative?
“This is now the third time this has been explained to you: under UK law, ROI citizens are treated as though they were UK citizens. So there will be no restrictions”
MT, you are missing the point Harry is making.
Brexit has changed things
This may no longer be possible in the near future.
“See Harry’s 8.01 post. Hard times to come?”
What comment are you responding to?
“MT, you are missing the point Harry is making.”
I’m not.
“Brexit has changed things
This may no longer be possible in the near future.”
Why may it no longer be possible?
I would agree with a lot of that Peter but how would you make sure the wealth was spread around equally.
Margaret Thatcher made England very wealthy but she also favoured the south of England and took a lot of jobs out of the north,
In Ireland we have very unfair distribution of wealth and some areas very badly neglected which many see as being deliberate.
Do you think privatisation can go too far?
The Scandinavian nations are tearing up the rules and creating new thinking on this with some state owned and maintained hospitals 100% entirely run by private companies.
This ensures value for money and guarantees the profits do not leave the country.
A major problem with the right is too much of the profits are driven towards a tiny elite and then leave the country and into tax havens.
How would you address this?
Jessica
“A major problem with the right is too much of the profits are driven towards a tiny elite and then leave the country and into tax havens.”
I don’t see that ‘socialism’ necessarily prevents tiny, wealthy and preferential elites.
“In Ireland we have very unfair distribution of wealth and some areas very badly neglected which many see as being deliberate.”
If that is the case and it is deliberate, then I’d expect that some kind of legislation might take care of it.
In the end, however, a lot of this comes down to the small decisions that each of us makes. A person can keep themselves ‘legal’ but remain ungenerous; a person might stretch the law to it’s limit for selfish gain; an employer might pay a ‘living wage’ and do so by law, but treat his/her employees poorly in other ways and an employee might grasp at every advantage in the book even if it puts a business at risk.
Big government can’t solve every problem and can sometimes become a problem in themselves; laws can be made, but broken; people can take liberties and become selfish, so in the end each of us must exercise responsibility and care according to our conscience.
And perhaps this personal aspect to benefitting society has become weak, and needs to be strengthened.
I don’t, however, believe in political utopias, and I prefer the idea of equality of opportunity to equality of outcome.
PF, those pesky workers rights enshrined in EU law must have really spooked you. Not to mention the equality legislation that many relied upon in this statelet when you’re fellow citizens were a little less restrained, shall we say. But sure lets ditch the years of hard work by people you wouldn’t agree with and unite the, ‘archipelago’. Personally I felt more secure and ideologically at home in a united Europe.
Freddie
I can’t help but come to the conclusion that you make a lot of assumptions.
“Why may it no longer be possible?”
The UK could break up.
They could force a trade war with the EU.
Ireland could side with the EU and force unification and end the common travel area altogether.
If the UK are not allowing EU citizens to remain, will the EU tolerate Irish citizens getting preferential treatment within the UK than other EU citizens?
If they wont, will we be able to work around this and remain in the EU?
How can you be so sure that things will remain as they are when both states are going in seemingly different directions?
“If the UK are not allowing EU citizens to remain, will the EU tolerate Irish citizens getting preferential treatment within the UK than other EU citizens?”
What would not tolerating it mean? The whole point of Brexit is that the UK leaves the EU and isn’t bound by its laws!
“How can you be so sure that things will remain as they are when both states are going in seemingly different directions?”
Because nobody wants it to change, nobody’s asking for it to change and it’s not in anyone’s interests for it to change.
“The whole point of Brexit is that the UK leaves the EU and isn’t bound by its laws!”
But Ireland will be at least initially.
Will Ireland have to decide to give up the common travel arrangements in order to remain within the EU?
“Because nobody wants it to change, nobody’s asking for it to change and it’s not in anyone’s interests for it to change.”
The EU may see it differently, Spain in particular for example who have territorial disputes within its boundaries already.
“But Ireland will be at least initially.”
So?
“Will Ireland have to decide to give up the common travel arrangements in order to remain within the EU?”
What have the common travel arrangements got to do with what you asked about, namely the UK treating ROI citizens the same as UK citizens?
“The EU may see it differently, Spain in particular for example who have territorial disputes within its boundaries already.”
The EU can see it however it likes. The UK will decide its own immigration policy and how to treat ROI citizens. That’s the whole point of Brexit.
“The EU can see it however it likes. The UK will decide its own immigration policy and how to treat ROI citizens. That’s the whole point of Brexit.”
And if Ireland is not allowed to reciprocate and remain inside the EU, will Britain maintain this stance do you think?
“And if Ireland is not allowed to reciprocate and remain inside the EU, will Britain maintain this stance do you think?”
Reciprocate what?
If the UK stops EU citizens from entering as TM has suggested, and the EU say right, we will not allow UK citizens from entering the EU. Ireland will have to take sides will we not?
If Ireland no longer allows UK citizens to come and live and work freely in Ireland any more, will the UK still allow us to go and live and work freely over there?
“If the UK stops EU citizens from entering as TM has suggested, and the EU say right, we will not allow UK citizens from entering the EU. Ireland will have to take sides will we not?”
TM is not suggesting that EU citizens be prevented from entering.
“If Ireland no longer allows UK citizens to come and live and work freely in Ireland any more, will the UK still allow us to go and live and work freely over there?”
Well, first, as UK citizens, obviously of course we in NI will be able to live and work freely elsewhere in the UK. As regards ROI citizens, that’s a good question, but I do think it would be far too problematic for the UK to do anything other than maintain the status quo.
“I don’t see that ‘socialism’ necessarily prevents tiny, wealthy and preferential elites.”
Judging by the billionaires in Russia, I don’t think any political ideology prevents that entirely, but the state surely has an obligation to manage the economy for the benefit of its people and needs some sort of control on how much money is allowed to leave and limiting privatisation and keeping at least some key industry within the private sector so more profits to back into the public purse.
The Nordic model embraces capitalism but maintains high social standards through outsourcing the workforce to private enterprise within state controlled sectors.
It is only one measure but it seems to be gaining interest.
Unfortunately we cannot rely on human nature.
“I don’t, however, believe in political utopias, and I prefer the idea of equality of opportunity to equality of outcome.”
How do you assess equality of opportunity though?
What if some areas receive less investment, less houses are built there even though there is greater need, crime rates are constantly higher, road infrastructure and access to employment centres are lacking over very long periods?
Is that really equality of opportunity?
Jessica
“but the state surely has an obligation to manage the economy for the benefit of its people”
I think I said something like that.
“The Nordic model…”
I don’t know enough about it, if anything at all, to comment.
“Unfortunately we cannot rely on human nature.”
No, but people can change, and governments however much or however little they intervene, are people too – so we’re stuck with people whichever way we look at it.
“What if some areas receive less investment etc.”
I wouldn’t describe that as equality of opportunity – but some of this comes down to individual motivation too.
“Well, first, as UK citizens, obviously of course we in NI will be able to live and work freely elsewhere in the UK. ”
That is true, but would it not open up NI as a means of EU citizens gaining access to the UK?
There would have to be passport checks or some form of identification would there not?
Well, PF centre right politics to my mind translates as institutionalised selfishness. Perhaps not as selfish as extreme right, but institutionalised selfishness none the less. I understand you speak from a religious perspective. Should you not then consider liberation theology, if you wish to be true to the scriptural imperative? It was after all established in Protestant South America. Just interested.
Freddie
I don’t know enough about Liberation Theology to comment on it, but I don’t really see how emphasising personal responsibility with generosity isn’t scriptural. What I would say, though, is even if we were to take Liberation Theology as the only accurate understanding of Christianity, then it would be part of the mission of the Church rather than that of secular government.
Of course, if you are asking me if it is possible for someone, me, for example, to claim any kind of Christian belief yet ignore the poor the weak and the oppressed in society, then I’d be tending towards, ‘no’, as the answer to that question. But remember too, that the question, ‘What do the ‘oppressed’ do once they are free, has to be answered as well.
This also highlights why I don’t place my hope in political utopias. Indeed, in the end, for all the national politics discussed on this website, my ‘Unionism’ comes second to my faith. Put it this way, I don’t plan on dying for ‘Ulster’, and, as I think I’ve said before, I consider the phrase ‘For God and Ulster’ to be blasphemous.
The very human nature that Jessica thinks we can’t reply on can be changed by Biblical thought, and that is a greater priority.
In the end, all political systems can translate into selfishness and what changes that are the individual decisions each of us make. How I treat the people I meet tomorrow and how I use the money I have will say more about me that how I vote or any political ideology I might lean towards – it might even do more good.
The question she asked me, however, was about my politics, other than Orange and Green; and while no one is saying any of this is easy, I said ‘centre right’ to emphasise my understanding of the need of personal responsibility, small government and individual generosity. That, and there comes a point when we have to trust each other.
“That is true, but would it not open up NI as a means of EU citizens gaining access to the UK?”
How would the UK not treating ROI citizens as foreigners open up NI as means of EU citizens gaining access to the UK?
“There would have to be passport checks or some form of identification would there not?”
Why?
Is that not slightly utopian as well though Peter.
I will tell you one thing, I am enjoying the more positive engagements even with MT a lot more than the negative orange and green.
There is clearly language we need to avoid with one another to maintain these positive engagements
Calling republicans terrorists, provos and language making us out to be murderers is a sure way to get backs up.
Likewise, referring to unionists as bigots and promoters of sectarian division is likewise sure to offend.
I am sure there is a lesson there somewhere.
“No, but people can change, and governments however much or however little they intervene, are people too – so we’re stuck with people whichever way we look at it.”
A lot of people here would find it difficult being stuck with English Tories who have little interest in us and even less respect.
I would have no issue sharing this place equally with people like yourself Peter but it would be a lot easier if we weren’t misruled from London.
“I mean a little cut-price deal for two passports that will alleviate the cost of buying two separate books, given that we have a unique form of dual- citizenship here. These documents are not cheap and we uniquely are entitled to at least the idea of dual-citizenship of a kind here. Maybe the two governments could agree on something novel that will give us poor beggars ,living in the isolation of Norneverland ,stranded in a situation beyond any real control of our destinies, some little dispensation .a fire-sale deal, maybe?”
Why would we need two passports?
Better looking at it than looking for it MT
My thoughts exactly ,Dominic.What’s not to like ?
Because this Theresa May” potential “report appears to run counter to any assurances given by both sides over continuing the Common Travel Area and needs to be studied carefully , Linked to triggering Article 50 by the end of March there is the speed with which this is about to be sprung too . It seems to be a contradicion to all those previous assurances, like those about an open or a soft borders. There might even be the possibility of legal challenges.This potential restriction would seem to apply to Northern Irish who are Irish passport holders. At the moment , in light of this tweak, it appears that Irish citizenship rights in GB might be subject to Brexit negotiation.
There is the question of the rights , for example ,of Irish citizens who live and work in Northern Ireland and regard themselves as native to NI and whether or not they will be the same or different, internally and externally, as the rights of British citizens who live and work in Northern Ireland and who also regard themselves as native to NI? The current status may be subject to negotiation under Brexit with both Brussels and Dublin.Before any negotiations take place this is all a grey and previously unstudied area.
Jeez,Harry, how many times does MT have to reassure you. It’s all going to be all right. We have his word on it.
Yep …that’s what worries me , fiosrach !!!
PF, Thank you for you’re response. F
“Better looking at it than looking for it MT”
Looking at what, Dominic?
“Better looking at it than looking for it MT”
Looking at what, Dominic?
A second passport
“Because this Theresa May” potential “report appears to run counter to any assurances given by both sides over continuing the Common Travel Area and needs to be studied carefully , Linked to triggering Article 50 by the end of March there is the speed with which this is about to be sprung too . It seems to be a contradicion to all those previous assurances, like those about an open or a soft borders. There might even be the possibility of legal challenges.This potential restriction would seem to apply to Northern Irish who are Irish passport holders.”
How does it appear to apply to ‘Northern Irish who are Irish passport holders’?
And why would then mean people would want two passports?
“There is the question of the rights , for example ,of Irish citizens who live and work in Northern Ireland and regard themselves as native to NI and whether or not they will be the same or different, internally and externally, as the rights of British citizens who live and work in Northern Ireland and who also regard themselves as native to NI?”
Anyone who is native to NI is a UK citizen.
“These words are yours but the word to concentrate on is the word “ONLY”.The passport is not “ONLY” available to citizens of the Republic of Ireland.”
Of course it is!
You’re telling me the Republic issues passports to people who are citizens of other countries but not its own citizens??
My goodness. That’s incredible if you believe that.
It would also be illegal.
“That is borne out by all those outside of the Republic of Ireland who have these passports.”
How? All the people outside the ROI with ROI passports are ROI citizens.
“This is why I say the statement is patently untrue and in no way factual ,because the passport is available to many more people than that.In fact I have never been a citizen of the Republic of Ireland and I have an Irish EU password. It is that simple and I still cannot see why you do not understand this.”
Of course you’re a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. You couldn’t get a passport if you weren’t. Read the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, which extends citizenship to people born in NI.
“Anyone who is native to NI is a UK citizen.”
Yes, but that can and will change
Ah right.
Not sure why I’d ever be looking for a second one. One is expensive enough.
Which is why the “Two for one deal” sounds like a worthy proposition.i think we deserve it.