So now. The talks have broken down, parties have walked away and we all hold our breath for the judgement of the small but perfectly formed British Secretary of State. Will he call a second election? Not a chance. Will he introduce direct rule? I very much doubt it. Will he kick the Pope, sorry, the can down the road and hope that Something Will Turn Up? Very likely.
It’s a shame that the talks should have proved fruitless so far but let’s be honest – who here thought we’d have an agreement between the DUP and Sinn Féin by today? The short few weeks they were given were interrupted by the death and funeral of Martin McGuinnes; then yesterday was a Sunday, and as we know, the DUP never involve themselves in politics on a Sunday.
That last is an intriguing thought. Do all of the DUP negotiating team believe that it is sinful to engage in political negotiations on a Sunday? Certainly the people in their team who call the shots must believe such Sabbath ‘work’ is wrong.
Which makes for a delicious irony, since yesterday’s gospel reading at Mass was about Jesus curing a blind man – on a Sunday. This upset the Pharisees, and they claimed this man Jesus could not be from God, since he worked/cured on the Sabbath. The reading makes clear that physical blindness is as nothing compared to those who are willfully blind on matters of humanity and concern for others, and that good works obviously trump keeping the Sabbath.
But OK, the DUP believe in observing the letter of the law, forget the spirit. In which case, you’d expect they’d be punctilious in carrying out every syllable of any agreement they’d signed up to. Wouldn’t you?
Jude, I’m not sure if the ‘The short few weeks’ tuned in the ‘long many months’ there can be agreement on legacy and the Irish language. SF are looking for 2 things(admittedly Arlene may be sacked/cleared in a long few months) and SF have nothing to give in return – as they claim the 2 things they need should already have been implemented.
I dont understand SF policy other than really wanting direct rule – which looks to me like the best Nationalist option as the DUP perhaps can be removed from the Brexit negotiations and that can be done via the Irish government in trying to get some sort of ‘special status’ for Norn Iron.
special status for norn iron…isnt happening.
people holding their breath..lol
yer man jesus curing blind men..lol
people not working sundays.
not a bit of wonder the place is backward.
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen DUP people on the Sunday Politics many a morning arguing their point. Not sure why they couldn’t do that yesterday ?
Maybe they had to reassure the chosen people that after attending Mass they were still very much ‘Protestant’.
this leads to only one conclusion. The DUP are modern day Pharisees. Whoda thunk it?
why don’t SF just go back into government and bring in the ILA, LGBT rights etc through a bill?
DUP don’t have a POC veto anymore so any vote would require a simple majority?
“why don’t SF just go back into government” two words, Scott – Arlene Foster!
Biting their nose, to spite the face Hist.
And how is that the case, Scott?
Being fair Scott, and it’s a rare occasion I am fair to Senn Féin, had the one time Phriom Áire simply acted in accord with the traditional route of DUP Phriom Áire when ethics and morals were under question she could easily have stood aside, being temporarily replaced in a short term and all this would soon be over, they could themselves have set the terms of reference for inquiry which would have absolved them, and their leader, of any fallibility.
The problem is, Arlene was too tied up in egomania and felt she would put it up the Shinner’s, whom then dumped upon her.
Under her’s, Robinsin’s and Pasily’s leadership, key elements of the Good Friday Agreement were sidelined, subsequent ‘Agreement’s’ have gone the same way.
Both governments, that’s real government’s I mean, have sat back and failed in guaranteeing the international agreement they swore to uphold, the government in Kildare St. are most to blame here for their disinterest.
So, really, it’s not biting off nose’s or any other thing, it really is principle, I personally disagree with Jim Allister on the constitutional question but he has principle, good to see Sinn Féin, whom may have most to loose from a further election, have finally come up to the standard of those who previously fought for them to be there.
Scott,
I’m not sure whether some ‘Unionist’ approval is required still to pass something?
Cant see how legacy issues will ever get agreement between Nationalists and Unionists.
If SF, SDLP, PBP, Greens and the Alliance vote together they have a majority Sammy.
Without the POC in a free vote they could push through a ILA and LGBT rights.
This assumes of course that the UUP didn’t support a DUP POC.
It seems though the media victory of Arlene Fosters scalp is more important to them.
Scott, have the UUP agreed to an ILA?
Legacy is intractable – one mans freedom fighter is another’s terrorist – that circle is not for squaring. That issue should never have been devolved and may need to be undevolved and 2 governments needs to implement a solution.
I haven’t heard the UUP say it won’t happen Sammy.
I agree with you on legacy.
Scott – you are failing to see the bigger picture here. Sinn Fein stated they would not be returning to the status quo under the leadership of Arlene Foster. I think it was a reasonable request, by all the parties, in asking her to step aside for a temporary period – or maybe it wasn’t?
The problem we find ourselves in lies with Arlene Foster. This crisis could have been easily averted if she took the advice from the majority of MLA’s who represent the majority voice of those who live in the North. Her arrogance and self righteousness have only served to widen the divide between the parties and make any agreement merely impossible – For SF, returning to Stormont in the hope they “might” get unresolved and outstanding issues solved is politically dangerous – it’s merely a “hail Mary” attempt. Do you think the DUP would return to government if there was a realistic change that an ILA etc would happen under their watch? We have clearly witnessed that the DUP have no intention of changing – there were unable to change with Sinn Fein in government and its seems if within inactivity around government there are unable to change. They have no intention of working to fulfil obligations and agreements – which I do not think are unreasonable.
Legacy, I feel, is a far greater challenge and one our politicians are not up to. There needs to be a body from a cross section of society / political shades to deal specifically with legacy. It needs taken out of the hands of our politician representatives as it is far to a divisive area. It needs set into law at the behest of both the British and Irish governments and implemented by Stormont. Legacy will continue to burden the future – the past needs dealt with.
“Legacy will continue to burden the future – the past needs dealt with.”
It also needs to be dealt with before Stormont comes back
If that is important to both governments, then they should try doing something about that. Otherwise Stormont should remain closed permanently.
“the DUP never involve themselves in politics on a Sunday.” …. could I add this bit on … when it does not suit them.
Yet Simon Hamilton recently appeared on Sunday Politics. Foster even released a statement yesterday, on a Sunday. And there’s me wondering why there was a red sky last night …. all that political sin on a Sunday.
Let’s be honest – who really expected an agreement? I for one didn’t. The election result reinforced two things for me – Sinn Fein standing up to the DUP was endorsed within the wider Nationalist community, and they’ve subsequently taken note. Why form an Executive when the status quo was always likely to remain – that’s the political equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot. Also, the DUP lost their POC and the unionist majority in the Assembly has gone – why form an executive on this basis? Surely the DUP were only ever going to form an Executive in a position of power, not a position of weakness.
Jim Allister made it clear that his vote was available to the DUP if it was needed for a petition of concern. That’s 30 votes.
Maybe they will have even less after the next election
I feel that I cannot let it go past this time. Anybody lucky enough to get a copy of the Sunday Times yesterday will know what I mean. There were loads of articles about Martin McGuinness ranging from the reasonable one by Newton Emerson to the unadulterated bile of the writer with the morals of an alley cat who snipes from the depths of the free state. I urge anybody who can borrow a copy any where – get it and read it. I have bought my last copy.
At least we’ve got passed padlocking the swings on a Sunday!
I don’t come from a SF supporting family because of IRA inflicted misery in my immediate & wider family circle. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the powerful eulogy given by Bill Clinton at MMG’s funeral had an effect on my mother who on hearing GA’s statement yesterday said out loud “You’re absolutely right Gerry” I couldn’t believe my ears, SF should take great heart from that.
Welll…let’s see. We all knew these “talks” would go nowhere, just as we know there was a raft of good reasons for pulling the pin on our little experiment at self-government.Are memories so raddled that no one can remember what a struggle it was to even pretend there was a chance of it working? Never mind this past ten years …..Let’s look at even this past six months when DUP ministers piped up live on television to tell us that they never really signed up for any agreement….huh? What was that ….you went into government on false pretences and took all that lovely loot and didn’t believe in your agreements? Surely not?
What about Arlene thinking she was above the law? Surely not? Where did she get that idea that she shouldn’t step aside while a scandal involving herself was being investigated? What about all the promises reneged on?
Why would anyone want to share power with anyone like that?That’s what the people cast their votes about. They were infuriated by the nonsense .They were saying simply that unless there is a change of attitude from the DUP, nobody will allow them into government again.That is simply what has happened. It’s not difficult at all to understand. I can’t imagine why anyone is baffled.
Fiosrach
Anyone lucky enough to get a copy of The Sunday Times !!!
It has been a rag of a broadsheet for quite a few years,so I think lucky is an unfortunate slip there as I notice you write some quite profound comments otherwise
The Jim Allister comment as an example
I WAS joking,Kevin.
People try to make out that Gerry is the stumbling block here. You hear -if MMcG was still here a compromise would have been hammered out. But he was the man that gave Arlene’s gang the bum’s rush. He was the man at the coal face every day and could stomach no more. Sinn Féin operate a collective leadership and there is no point in chancers trying to insert wedges between them. I hope they stay out until 1921 so there will be no ‘government ‘ to celebrate the birth of this nation/kingdom/province/wee country.
That’d be “2021” , fiosrach ….slip of the stickykey , I’d imagine ….
You pedant you!
Can’t have you time-travelling in the wrong direction fiosrach…
“People try to make out that Gerry is the stumbling block here.” I think its convenient to make Gerry Adams the stumbling block and in essence the scapegoat – its much easier to blame Gerry Adams and articulate so many reasons why he is the issue than deal with the actual problem that brought us the crisis point – Arlene Foster! Adams has been flung into a crisis, that wasn’t his doing, yet he is being targeted as the one allowing the crisis to continue.
Arlene Foster used Adams for convenience as her electoral campaign … and we all witnessed how that ended. You would think sense would prevail and the Gerry word would go down as a “not to be used” word.
The Man who is Thursday in The Unionist Times, Esteemed Blogmeister, threw a real hissy fit this morning which brought back fond, yet simultaneously sad, recollections of the dear , departed Lord Fitt, Baron of Bell’s Hill, barren of ideas, and he to be hissing in the pit of Westminster.
Newton Emerson (for it was he!) had to undergo a harrowing ordeal at the hands of the wheelbarrowing Pat Kenny on Newstalk. fm today on how the impasse of the Norneverland Talks came to pass, and pass away.
-It shows one thing, Pat, the Shinners are not very good negotiatiors !
Whatever about the DUP and their cover version of ‘Never on a Sunday’ where The Man who is Thrusday is concerned it’s never a case of Never on a Monday whenever Opportunity Knocs to knock those of a, erm, green hue. And he means that most sincercely, folks.
Pat, as one of nature’s wheelbarrowers (of his million dollar DOB-donated loot per annum per animosity), continued to valiantly but vainly attempt to push The Newt away from putting the boot into the shin of the Shinners:
-We now have, Pat, the Intertribal Bunfight from the Shinners involving a United Ireland !!
And, when the no-nonsense host hinted that the DUP leadier might possibly be at fault, even a teeny weeny bit, for the impasse:
-We have to be very careful, Pat, about what we say about Arlene Foster !!!
Losing patience, Pat the Patriotic Patsy, put it to his victim that he might be construed as a, um, Unionist?
-Of course, I’m a Unionist, Pat !!!!
(The unspoken impliclaiton possibly being: I’m the Man who is Thursaday, after all, in The Unionist Times).
-Being a Unionist, Pat, is not an outrage, by definition !!!!!
–
TETCHINESS with a WRETCH, ETCHED in RETCH
There’s the altright and there’s the fault, right
Of the Shins who are the lockjaw in a dogbite
Here is the truth
According t’Newt
Bad Adams’ the lad who’s our ‘hood Luddite.
On another thread Dr. Collins tells us that three things reduced the time available for talks.
Two of them are related: St. Patrick’s Day, and Sundays.
Both are holidays/holydays.
Basically you can slag off another person’s traditions and culture and seek to pick holes in it, or you can seek to reach out in respect.
But you can’t do both – even if that’s exactly what some people do, and without a hint of embarrassment.
I agree Peter.
11th night bonfires are clearly an important tradition and culture for many unionists.
These are Irish culture and should be respected and supported.
I have suggested a few times for culture funding towards St Patricks day and 11th night celebrations to make them safer and more family friendly. Both could be tourist attractions if we can reach a break through on mutual respect as you rightly suggest,
since when did unionists respect Irish culture or Catholicism, never heard much of that in my lifetime, did I miss it PF?
I did’t say they did.
My point was otherwise.
I must say I am baffled by these so called talks right now.
SF have made it clear they will not go back in with Arlene as First Minister.
The DUP have explicitly said she is not stepping aside (for now anyway).
Were she to do so it would be a massive loss of face for them and I cannot see it happening.
So there is no wriggle room on this and I don’t see what another 3 weeks will change.
We are surely faced with direct rule or else prolonged negotiations until such time as the RHI enquiry reports back.
I imagine the SOS will try the extension of talks hoping that the pain of not having a proper budget or ministers in charge focuses minds.
If there still isn’t agreement then it’ll be another election.
Direct rule will be the last resort. To bring it in will mean that devolved government and power sharing has failed. It’ll effectively be the end of the GFA.
Scott
How can either party move?
If SF go back in with Arlene, jessica for one,will never forgive them.
If the DUP accede to the shinners demand it would be a major loss of face
How do you see a negotiated way round that, bearing in mind that James Brokenshire is hardly Solomon?
I said it before, it is not in the DUPs gift to bring Stormont back
Only the british state can make a breakthrough.
Have they the courage to move on the past and the truth of their role in it?
Only a move of that magnitude could make up for Arlenes behaviour in my view
Bear in mind, we are only asking for the truth and nothing more
A move by the british state on legacy and acknowledging their role in the conflict is a thousand times more important to me than Arlene
Would you agree, Jessica, that just as it is extremely unlikely that victims of the IRA will ever hear the truth or all of the truth about what happened to their loved ones, that, practically speaking, there will always be a limit to what any state – Britain or the RoI can do by way of ‘openness’ about the past?
Yes I would Peter, but there has to be enough given on both sides to allow sufficient healing and the level of cover up and the blatant openness of it while the media does nothing is not healthy or conducive for a peaceful future. Covering up and withholding known evidence and peoples identities already found in inquiries from legal representatives is simply disgraceful.
We may have an absence of violence but there can be no closure without a truth process and it would be very foolish to leave things as they are.
What future do you think we can have together with one section of the community calling the other terrorists or terrorist sympathisers?
I sometimes think unionism does not want to have a future in Ireland and will maintain a siege mentality until it is no more than a troubled chapter in Irelands history.
I am totally unable to comprehend how the burning of tyres on an industrial scale and polluting our environment can be described as culture . I simply can’t imagine why any one would want to visit here to witness people trashing their own environment . This pie in the sky speculation that these events could be promoted as tourist attractions , honestly does make me question some individual’s grip on reality .
“I am totally unable to comprehend how the burning of tyres on an industrial scale and polluting our environment can be described as culture ”
Who said it was?
Those burning it.
Those allowing them to do it also.
But I rather think, Michael, that just because there are aspects (the burning of tyres, for example, or the misuse of alcohol for another) of a wider culture that are wrong/unhelpful/require change, it does not mean that everything else about it should either be dismissed or ridiculed – and especially not the people just because they are different from us.
You asked who calls mass burning of tyres culture. The people burning it do and those that support them.
If you want bonfires to become more “acceptable” I’d imagine stopping the mass burning of tyres plus flags and imagery would go a long, long way to do so.
I’m also baffled how’s it can be called culture. It’s toxic both to the mind and the senses and the only people who will truely change it for the good are the leaders within the community.
It would also help if people like yourself don’t play dumb and ask questions like “who said it was?”
Isn’t that what I just said?
In asking the question I was referring the people on this thread, those who had already commented.
But it’s OK, I’ve got used to ‘people like myself’ being accused of all sorts of things on here.
Perhaps assuming the best instead of the worst would be helpful?
Get off yer cross PF, we need the wood.
It was quite obvious what slanlot was referring too.
Michael
If that is how you choose to read my comments that is up to you.
I have told you what I meant, and that was what I meant.
I didn’t raise the personal issue, but there’s a lot of it on this website at the moment.
What I don’t plan to do however is to take your scarcasm without comment.
If you want the conversation, let’s have it, if you don’t, that’s fine.
My comments on this issue have been perfectly reasonable.
If you say you misunderstood slanalot then I’ll take your word at it.
What if to receive funding, the bonfire had to be free of pollutants such as tyres, had to be limited to select locations where houses were not put at risk, the event had to be registered and some effort made to control drinking and trouble.
What if it started with music, barbeques and bouncy castles leading to a controlled fire, perhaps even a fireworks display to finish.
I would have no issue with that, would you?
This has happened before Jessica.
What simply happens is the money is taken to have the friendly, happy, bouncy castle, non pollutant bonfires but there’s also a monsterous bonfire built around the corner with all the tyres you want burning on it.
And the answer to the “monstrous bonfire” is simple: education and community agreement.
It may take time, but it does work.
Demonising people solves nothing.
“Demonising people solves nothing.”
If we could only apply the same to all sides in the conflict and putting the past behind us, we might actually get somewhere,
Perhaps that is why I have empathy towards loyalists and their bonfires.
All I hear is how important it is to them, not that they wish to hurt anyone by them.
The solution to the tyres issue is there already, registration so every tyre that turns up at a bonfire site can be quickly traced back to the owner who can receive it back with a bill for its return trip.
You don’t need to demonise the people but you should demonise the monsterous tyre filled bonfire they’ve built and then lit.
Unfortunately that’s extremely rare.
I can’t remember the last time when leaders/politicians from within the community came out to condemn tyre filled monsterous bonfires filled with “Irish” imagery. Why would they stop when it’s deemed acceptable? That then feeds into the mindset that it’s ok to do it.
Agree, Jessica.
And along with this, we fund St. Patrick’s Day, we fund the 12th and we fund the Irish language.
I have no issue with any of that.
PF, can you explain how St Patrick’s day and the twelfth are in any way similar. One is the celebration of the patron saint of Ireland, the other celebrates the triumph of one section of our community over another .
The Nationalist community turned out to vote and gave Sinn Fein a resounding vote of approval . Their very clear message to Sinn Fein was ,no more appeasement of Foster and the Dup , full implementation of the Good Friday agreement . The death of Martin mc Guinness was a huge loss for Nationalists but I suspect an even greater loss for Unionists . Sinn Fein are only too aware that Nationalists will no longer accept insulting behaviour or any further back-sliding or coat-trailing from the DUP . A compromise on any of the issues that Sinn Fein has declared non -negotiable , would be political suicide , for they would be punished severely at the next election . Yes they have left themselves no wriggle room but compromise is not an option . Direct rule I think would be more acceptable for Nationalists than going back to the same old , same old . It’s not about losing face , more a question of self -respect .
slanlot
Yes they have not left themselves any wriggle room I agree.
And the DUP seem to be in the same position.
I don’t see what a further 3 weeks will do to change that.
Nothing, but it will buy the british state some time to figure out how to best cover up as much of their past as they can and keep the north of Ireland out of their hair.
Elections could lead to Sinn Fein being the biggest party, they wont want that and will be hoping something can happen in the mean time to lessen that likelihood.
Direct rule is a bloody headache for them and means spending more time in this “bloody awful place”
On top of that brexit is where they need to be focussed.
Will joint rule gradually become a more attractive option, devolvement by proxy through Dublin?