There are two thoughts pressing on my thinking this morning, both the product of articles I’ve read online. One was in The Guardian and made no reference to our NE Nest (NEN). The other was from today’s Sindo and focuses exclusively on our NEN.
Tempted though I am to tackle both here, I’ll confine my reaction to the second article, leaving the first for another time. The link for it is below.
In the Sindo, somebody called Gerard O’Regan believes a visit to Belfast has provided him with an insight into the direction things are going here. He talks about the problems of Brexit dividing people here. He goes on to say
“Also hovering in the political background are the antics of Sinn Féin and the DUP. However, it would seem a significant proportion of voters in the North are increasingly jaded with what they see as yet another round of political theatre.”
There are two things I detest about this paragraph. The first is that one lot’s as bad as the other – “the antics of Sinn Féin and the DUP.” It’s because of such lazy analyses of what’s happening here that people in the south have swallowed the two-warring-tribes version of what the Troubles and post-Troubles have been about. Looking round the world, can you see any situation where one crowd is as bad as the other? Even those who view Hillary Clinton with a jaded eye would concede she would have been better than the erratic bigot that’s in the White House at present. Even those critical of Jeremy Corbyn would concede that he offers a different view of life and society than Theresa May. And while South Korea is in a maelstrom of corruption and scandal right now, most people would say it presents a more attractive vision of the future than North Korea.
Close to that paragraph in half-baked confusion comes this one:
“In time, more and more Catholic and Protestant teenagers, like their peers in so many other places, will simply want to enjoy the bounty of youth. They will want to study, travel and eventually get a decent job. This will in turn mean a growing inclination to pursue the politics of the middle ground.”
Right. Have you ever seen young people who wouldn’t like to travel and have a decent job, whatever about study? And to suggest that they will “simply want to enjoy the bounty of youth” and at the same time “pursue the politics of the middle ground” sounds to me like a contradiction in terms.
The fact is that the recent election results showed that more people, including young people, are interested in politics here, even as they are enjoying “the bounty of youth”. As for signs that these young people are heading for some (presumably desirable) middle ground? Someone show that man the voting figures from a couple of weeks ago, please. And then pass him his hat.
It has to be presented that way, otherwise the readers might start to get unsettled. Can’t have that. Might upset the status quo.
lazy analysis is definitely a good description for O’Regan’s writing in general. But there is the usual deviousnnesss that comes with all the Info articles regarding the NEN!
Are catholics/nationalists in a battle for supremacy, I thought it was equality?
I also thought Sinn Fein were seeking an agreed Ireland comfortable for everyone on the island not only the north.
As for it going on for centuries. I take it exact the same problems existing at the turn of the last century in Dublin has not been passed on through the education system but blotted out as though it never happened.
The Dallas edition of Irish history, it was all a bad dream
What a load of shite. And who buys the Sindo anyway. They used to give it away in Derry for a long time. It still lay on the shelves.
surely one lots as bad as the other.both ruling by fooling in pursuit of power and wealth.the last generation seen no bounty of youth.and for what.
If you believe that billy then the ruling by fooling is working, you just cant see who is actually pulling the strings
The bounty of youth is to be young and free, with no ties, able to get up and travel, see the world and enjoy a period in your life with limited responsibility.
That is being used to promote globalisation as free movement which you know about already.
The power and the wealth are already in the hands of the few, the power struggles below are for the scraps they throw off the table in the direction they want nations to go in to get them.
The EU is probably the most disgustingly capitalist union on this planet, yet extreme lefties promote it like it is manna from heaven.
It sucks the sovereignty out of nations and currently is clawing at taking greater fiscal controls.
It is through controlling the national debt of the component parts that this entity is consuming control and blinded by cheap borrowing to throw goodies at the people in return for easy elections while taking plaudits for good governance while being led by the nose from the ECB, we are all sucked into it.
Apart from the english who know empire building and management when they see it.
And I am not anti capitalist for those who get confused, I am nationalist and anti globalist. I oppose the ideals of a new world order.
I am very clear in my mind of my views, my flexibilities are not unprincipled.
Jessica, I am curious what you mean by anti-globalist? To me that seems to contradict being pro-capitalist.
Sorry Jude, you have lazily concluded that most folk would’ve welcomed warmonger and death gloater Hilary Clinton as president than Trump. Alas Irish folk have always fallen for razzmatazz politics, especially so when it originates across the Atlantic.
As for the above journalist/newspaper I think most people with a bit of common sense can confidently conclude that there are journalists embedded within newspapers and news networks. I learned of a journalist who was abducted and killed in Egypt in the 70’s. Turns out he was mi6 and interestingly was based in Ireland working for a major national newspaper in Dublin. The ‘biro gang’ as the mighty perkin warbeck aptly phrased recently, sums things up nicely.
It isn’t just the media that has been infiltrated by Britain, they have people in universities and political parties. A person once said to me that there would be a revolution in Ireland if they ever knew how much control the brits have over their society. I dismissed his statement but since then I wish I had listen more carefully to what he said.
I accept your reservations about Hillary – she is without doubt a hawk – but she does show a semblance of sanity, which is reassuring in the person with the black box with the red button…
She may indeed show a semblance of sanity but like all other politicians I would ask, how well do we know them? As is alluded to above, the embedded media can and will paint a positive picture of monsters if they wish to or are directed to. The media, p.r teams etc know most folk will be sucked into nice words and glamour looks hence why Obama,Cameron,Blair etc were successful. Btw according to reports Hilary went buck mad the night she lost the election hence her no show at the customary acceptance of the result speech. Alas the media played that one down. In fact claims from employees suggest she is very aggressive in her every day work with her employees. Anyways it matters little whether Trump has access to the button because as we all know, all prime ministers,presidents etc are dictated to by the suits behind the scenes. They are but merely the public face and spokesman of the government. Sure didn’t Camoron admit that to Geraldine Finucane a while back?
O Regan / Ó Riagáin/ Little King
The surname of O’Regan abounds
Among embed’d Dub newshounds
Each O’Regan
Is a news vegan
Gerard/Michael with Kerryman sounds.
There is an attempt in some quarters to use the legacy of Martin GuInness as a big stick with which to beat Gerry Adams. Now, if only Catholics in the North would just shut up and except their lot. Remember: we have already been through the worst of it.
Sorry, predictive text: Martin McGuinness. I feel disrespectful getting his name wrong.
“Jessica, I am curious what you mean by anti-globalist? To me that seems to contradict being pro-capitalist.”
Emmet, Capitalism is simply the state allowing private individuals to own and run their own businesses and after taxation, to keep the profits for themselves.
It has facilitated huge economic growth beyond what could ever have been envisaged 100 years ago and with the taxes raised from such private business accounting for well over 90% of the revenue a state has to pay for our public services. As you can imagine, any move away from this would need to be carefully considered with detailed costings and business cases prepared to prove viability otherwise a state could fall on its arse and its credit rating nullified taking us back to the 50s as Harry would say.
However, within Capitalism, there are different groups operating at different levels.
The self employed have the lowest income allowance, and so long as total income is below a set level, they pay the least tax and can keep a reasonable amount of profit for themselves which is not hounded so even a degree of cash sales can be safely pocketed and undeclared.
Technically it is pure capitalism to hold on to this money and not declare it to the state coffers, but we all have to eat as they say.
My view would be to work away and keep what you can get away with but then I am very pro capitalist.
If you do well and the profits get bigger, then you are forced to incorporate your business and pay full national contributions for all employees, tax on sales and at the end of each year corporation tax on profits made.
Domestic corporations are often small businesses with under 20 employees and they make up the vast majority of the Irish workforce, they contribute over 50% of all Irish tax revenue raised and get no subvention and very little support from the public purse.
The money from all sales comes back into Ireland and contributes to the public purse in Ireland.
This would be the market I would operate in.
Then you have large multinationals. They trade internationally and work on a global scale and this is what I call globalisation.
These businesses are huge and have the capability to offload jobs and resources to different parts of the planet to lower operational costs and increase profit margins.
This is where cheap labour comes into play and what gives capitalism a bad name as they are unscrupulous and care nothing for their workforce whom they neither live in the same country as or possibly even ever see face to face. They often dehumanise elements of the labour market and I am very much against this.
However, it results in lower prices for goods we all enjoy so getting beyond paying lip service is difficult as no one really wants to know who suffered to get the great deal on your designer sports shoes, though often we pay top dollar for goods made this way as a means of hiding it.
Another element of globalisation I dislike, is that often these companies get all of the subvention to remain and not move business elsewhere which is an unfair advantage. Often the number of jobs also makes the level of support offered poor value but offers good PR for those standing for election.
Then there is capitalisation, holding assets and money within a nation to increase its GDP which has a feel good factor but doesn’t really account for much on the ground as felt within Ireland over recent years.
The there are sweetheart deals and tax havens which allow these companies to avoid paying equal or even any tax on these huge profits.
In my eyes, capitalism is not globalism and not a bad thing, though globalism is capitalism and is a bad thing.
Hope that explains my views on it Emmet
I think I get some of it. You only like ‘small business’ and not ‘big business’. To me globalization is a stage in capitalism (if you are successful on a small scale you invest and get success on a larger scale). Limiting business to one nation is very damaging to capitalism. Trade is also good for capitalism. At it simplest level capitalism works like a pyramid scheme, the wider the base the more the people at the top make. You have to take money from people to make money.
Hi Jessica,
To that I would add the problem of ‘Crony Capitalism’.
The main reason that corrupt globalization has been allowed to thrive is the revolving door that has been created for the political class.
Politicians who take good care of the needs of these multinationals know a juicy highly paid (and low effort) board position will be laid on for them after they leave politics.
A quick look at how many ex Goldman-Sachs employees are in powerful positions in governments around the world should be cause for concern for everyone.
It us a massive conflict of interest and has done much of the damage we now see in the relationship between our elites and the rest of us.
I was genuinely happy when Obama was first elected. I thought there was a chance the cycle might finally start to erode in the US.
And then the first thing he did was write a no-strings-attached cheque to the big banks for 8 trillion dollars. Turns out he was just like all the rest.
And if anyone doubts where Hillary Clinton is on all this you just need to ask why so many people chose an obviously flawed Trump over her. Super rich though he is, at least there is a possibility he is not in the same hock to the multinationals as team Clinton is.
Jud, you need to have a look at who Trump has surrounded himself with if you think he’s not like the rest. Big bank and big oil abound.
Yes.
And the democrats managed to find someone oven worse.
Quite an achievement.
I would have voted Trump over Hillary
Me too!
I doubt the people suffering under globalisation are too concerned about little red buttons while Hillary enjoys free rides in Denis Obrien’s luxury jet
You also don’t get to run a multi billion business empire through not having your wits about you
Funny how Trump is struggling to get legislation passed, but some think he would have no issue pushing this red button to launch a nuclear war
Jessica the USA has had many wars without any votes in congress.
The USA never declared war on Vietnam.. And the Gulf of Tonkin resolution was a red herring to say the least.
“I think I get some of it. You only like ‘small business’ and not ‘big business’.”
I wouldn’t say that at all Emmet.
Some small businesses are run by nuts who treat their employees appallingly.
I have experienced discrimination in the workplace and been treated poorly by small employers.
The same is true in the public sector though. There are good and bad people everywhere and that is not likely to change.
“To me globalization is a stage in capitalism (if you are successful on a small scale you invest and get success on a larger scale). ”
Capitalism does not have stages, it is not an ideology. It is simply the state allowing free control over business profits beyond the agreed taxation levels to private individuals. Nothing more.
Within that, every business is different and has different needs. If they are privately owned and run, they are operating within an agreed capitalist system where they pay the appropriate taxes to the state in which they are registered or incorporated to and are legally obliged to show their accounting records whereas unfortunately the state is not held to account for its book keeping though the economic report due in June on Irelands book keeping resulting from the EU investigation will make interesting reading in relation to Apple.
If you mean the state can make more money by allowing multi nationals to operate in a global scale, then I would say this is true and as it costs money to deliver free health care for example, we cannot ignore collecting the most tax revenue possible is very important and needs careful consideration.
I do think if subventions and support are to be given to any private business by the state, then there should be more consideration that sufficient returns are guaranteed and the focus should be on keeping the profits within the state as much as possible and we will need very talented people employed by the state to legislate to ensure the nation benefits as much as possible. Domestic businesses should focus more within that in my view though, but then I would be biased.
Where I differ from Donal is, where he would like the state to become the employer to deliver the same socialist focussed outcomes through nationalisation processes. I have no confidence first of all that the state could manage things better or even half as well, but more importantly, I believe that the state would be better served employing people to legislate better and influence control in that way rather than interfere with day to day business operations that only those who created them, nurtured them and who in many ways dedicated their lives to, could truly understand.
“At it simplest level capitalism works like a pyramid scheme, the wider the base the more the people at the top make. You have to take money from people to make money.”
If you mean the more employees a company has, the more money the people at the top make, then that is not always the case.
Businesses make money based on good corporate strategic planning, good understanding of product, markets, logistics as well as social and economic conditions.
Essentially, good business management. The same competence is needed to run the state as we seen with RHI. Imagine that is what is running our businesses, the corruption would be endemic.
If a business is not viable, then the more employees the greater the losses as people are often the greatest expense to a business as well as their most vital assets.
I am not sure what you mean by businesses take money from people to make money.
It is usually supply and demand, if there is need, businesses supply that demand in return for money which is taken with peoples permission.
It is the state which takes money from people in return for managing our public services that we have little say over.
I said ‘small business’ to mean small scale systems not actual businesses.
I think we are taking completely different views on capitalism. Capitalism in my opinion isn’t driven by states.
Do you really think capitalism isn’t an ideology? Then what was the cold war about? (I don’t think it is an ideology either just plating devil’s advocate here)
Capitalism has many stages, get money, expand, get more money, take over other businesses move to the next stage. I think ideology doesn’t have stages it is something static.
I don’t think States are the divers of capitalism- that is socialism when it happens. Government tax capitalist ventures to spend on projects- this is ‘subverting’ capitalism for (hopefully) the good of the country.
You seem to be focused on business with a small b. I am talking about the system.
“I am not sure what you mean by businesses take money from people to make money.”
Name one business that does not take money from someone. At the simplest level capitalism is the ability to take money from others to become richer. The trick with capitalism is making the person feel they want to give you the money or help you make something that will get the business money (granted- in return for less money).
I felt the same way about Obama, and to be hinest I think he is a good person, he was just unable to deliver what he wanted because of the control within his party.
In many ways the president is just a figure head and it wasnt until the last days of office he did what he should have been doing and pushed things.
Crony Capitalism is basically selfish greed and corruption that rots in the heart of governments and needs to be weeded out.
It is hard to beleive that Ireland is being ordered by the EU to collect 13Bln plus interest of taxes that should have been paid according to the legislation and accounting pracitices in place and that would apply to all other domestic businesses. This money is being denied off the back of nods and handshake deals that the civil war parties feel for some reason the need to honour.
A good place to start in my view is to ban any member of parliament or the Oireachtas from being a landlord.
How can you run the country in its best interests while making money off bad decisions in relation to housing and rent controls?
I really wish this would take traction but I guess if so many of them are landlords it will hardly be high on the agenda any time soon.
That is where responsible media would come into play, but as we know, DOB is in the debt of Fine Gael and we don’t even have that.
Jude
In regard to the middle ground,it is still where politics is usually won or lost.
The middle ground here composed of the UU SDLP Alliance and Greens had a total of around 36% of the vote in the election.
Considerably more than either SF or the DUP.
The middle ground received less than 20% of the registered vote on your previous system for analysing the vote. Combining 4 parties to try and show weakness in a strong party? I would say SF, SDLP and Alliance are the middle ground!
Emmet
In what way are SF middle ground?
It is a vague term I grant you but in terms of NI the DUP and SF are at opposite points on the spectrum. That is surely obvious.
I would say the moves made by Mike Nesbitt and Colum Eastwood were an attempt to establish a clear middle ground.
Maybe we need a clear definition.
It seems clear from the sindo article the writer is talking about UU/SDLP and Alliance.
I added the Green Party as they do not take a strong unionist or nationalist stance.
That would be more than 25% of those eligible to vote.
An increase from 2016 I think, which is the point Gerard O’Regan made and Jude apparently missed.
Equality not supremacism. Wanting a peaceful future. Not trying to benefit financially from being in power. Not attacking other’s culture or identity. This is my definition of middle ground. The UUP fail to meet this definition. I question your more than 25 %. Even if true that is hardly overwhelming support, and that is 4 parties combined.
Checked your stats, I was right your nominated 4 parties received less than 25% of eligible votes. Yes it was up by 5% on 2016 but so was SF vote. Given turnout was 10% higher it seems half of the enthused voters voted for your 4 nominated parties, the other half for SF. Again having to compete against the next 4 parties is a very big ask. Now can we keep the discussion to % of votes, this line of discussion is going nowhere.
Emmet
I agree we are not getting anywhere.
My point was in direct reference to the piece by Jude which in turn referred to the Sindo article.
Both talked about the ‘middle ground’ which to me is a block rather than any one party.
But if our definitions are different we are not going to make any progress.
Cheers.
I would say it would be more accurate to suggest that Sinn Fein and the Alliance Party are more reflective of the middle ground.
As Jim Royle would have said UUP are middle ground my arse!.Flag protests,pacts with the DUP,calling SF “scum”,voting against progressive legislation at Stormont,being present at bonfires where election posters are burned.Not to mention supporting UVF frontmen for high office whilst the troubles were at their height!
michael
Clearly everything is relative.
Their move to a closer relationship with the SDLP was a move to the middle ground.
In comparison to SF and the DUP the parties I listed are the middle ground.
At least Trump is honest
We all know he is an opportunist and after his term in office will milk it and make a lot of money out of it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the setup a company called presidential real estate
The reason he got in, was to shake up the system and break up the negative impact globalisation was having on the working people of America. He doesn’t give a rats ass how many people will suffer in Mexico, only that if multi nationals want to sell their cars and goods in the US, they will be taxed to the hilt if they don’t make them inside the US.
I cant say I am impressed with his brash attitude, but I cannot disagree with his putting his own people first approach, I wish there was someone in Ireland with the same cajones as they say.
At least Trump is honest.
Ha!
the vast majority of UUP MLA’S rejected transfers to the SDLP.Go and ask your local ex UUP MLA what she thinks of Nesbitts solo run.Those around her are fuming at Nesbitt costing her herseat.
Poor as O’Regan’s article it is as nothing compared with Eoghain Harris’s. Eoghain is no idiot; it takes a certain astuteness to regurgitate the same shite every week and get wekk paid for it. This week he and Stephen Collins of the Irish Times are singing off the same hymn sheete, so muh so that if you swapped their respective articles no-one would notice the difference. They make three essential points 1 That the the Provos alone were responsible for the troubles in the north and especially in Derry 2 That successive southern governments have been dancing to Sinn Fein’s tune in the north and that this has to change. 3 That the present impasse in the north can be laid squarely at the feet of Sinn Féin. What depths of ignorance, delusion and mendacity do they plumb to come up with such garbage?
Capitalism is most definitely not an ideology Emmet but it is an economic system used by almost all states today in some form or another.
I doubt there are any states who do not incorporate capitalism to some degree.
What you describe sounds more like neo liberalism, which is an ideology, much as you describe, the aim is to make money, get more money etc… and to pursue circumstances where more and more control is handed over to businesses to enable them to do that.
Globalisation and the financial sectors would be examples of neoliberalism, where the banks and corporations basically have more control that the state.
To me that is anti nationalism.
Look at the control the ECB has over Ireland. We are no longer a sovereign nation but an economic slave to the EU.
The EU is very neoliberal in my view which is the most extreme form of capitalism, yet we have left wing socialists who are very supportive of it and I have been called a racist for not agreeing with it.
They say the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.
We can agree to disagree on that one- I think the raison d’tre of any capitalist entity is to make profit, usually by getting people to work for the entity and by selling some sort of commodity or service. It is the same whether it is a small farmer, shop keeper, Company director or Bank manager. I don’t think capitalism can work hand in hand with nationalism. Nationalism is ideological whereas capitalism is about cold hard cash. Governments can regulate economic activity, but as companies have amassed more wealth than States they have naturally become more powerful. If big business wants to prosper it must compete internationally or fail. The nature of capitalism means that business can stop expanding and competing or they will fail- globalistaion is the natural next step (I’d say stage) in the development of capitalism.Also I don’t think the is a person or nation who isn’t an economic slave to someone- if it isn’t the ECB it is the WorldBank, if it isn’t the world bank it’s your local bank, if it’s not that it’s your boss. Capitalism in short makes slaves of us all.
should say ‘can’t stop expanding’
I would say they started off at opposite points gio.
Sinn Fein have moved a lot further to the centre ground, which really has to be acceptance of the GFA and respect for all of the people regardless of their background. I understand all parties have to respect those who actually vote for them, but within that you can and should still represent everyone.
The DUP were still only recently publically speaking in terms of representing only their own unionist supporters.
The UUP still consider one sided pacts.
Emmet is correct in my view, Sinn Fein, SDLP and Alliance are closest to the centre ignoring smaller groupings.
UUP would have moved further than DUP, but not as far as Mike would have liked.
Perhaps you could explain why you feel Sinn Fein are not middle ground?
I understand the media are biased and have an agenda.
You claim you do not.
So if the state is the employer and we are working under a socialist system devoid of capitalism.
You work 9 to 5 and get paid by the state.
Are you no longer a slave?
You would still be a slave, unless you loved your job and did it for love of your country/people. There are political activists who work for political parties for nothing. If a country truly got rid of capitalism I doubt people would be working for the government from 9-5. I don’t think we have had a society devoid of capitalism so it is hard to say.
You also cant ignore the fact that this is a failed state, that most people here have given up on hope and just get by and try to ignore the political reality which is out of their hands anyway.
It is a but unfair to blame any of the parties on such low turnout. It is not in their gift to resolve our issues, only the two governments can sort it and they don’t have the interest to do so.
But then Wales have the lowest at just over 30% turnout in elections.
What does that say about Wales?
So you are choosing the parties that make up the middle ground, no matter if their views are at either extremity. That’s good of you.
I think the middle ground being acceptance that there are two polar but equally valid view points in terms of the Irish and British identities is the only fair middle ground.
The further you move away from the equality and respect outlined in the GFA in regards to those two polar opposite views the further you are moving away from the middle ground.
Not tell me again, what parties are in the middle ground and why?
jessica
I was responding to Jude’s article and it is clearly implied in his last paragraph that he is referring to the middle ground as being neither DUP or SF.
At least that is how I read it,but perhaps he will clear that up himself.
How would you define the middle ground gio?