Picture by Northern Ireland Executive
You know the way politicians are always telling interviewers: “That’s a hypothetical question you’re asking me and I don’t deal in hypotheses, I deal in the real world”? Well, our First Minister doesn’t go in for that line of response. With one bound he is free of such restrictions: “ Let’s be very clear, there will be repercussions if that was found to be the case.” The ‘that’ he’s referring to is IRA involvement in the killing of Kevin McGuigan Sr.
It’s good when you see a politician free himself from traditional bonds. At the same time, he is engaging in hypotheticals. For example: do you know that the IRA was involved in the killing of Kevin Mcgurgan? I don’t. If you do, what is the source of your information and how reliable is it? And please, don’t tell me you heard it from a dog in the street. You’d be amazed at how little information on things political you can get from the average mutt. No, what we do know is that two men, Kevin McGuigan and Gerard Davison, have been shot dead. The rest, for now, is speculation.
There are other things that we don’t have to speculate about. For example, we don’t have to speculate about the rules of the Orange Order, of which a number of the DUP are proud members. No Catholics, no husbands of Catholics, no attendees at Catholic Church ceremonies. We do know that the posters of Sinn Féin and SDLP politicians have been burnt on Eleventh Night bonfires. Along with the Irish national flag. We do know that there’s an illegal encampment at Twaddell Avenue of men who are determined to have an Orange march where it’s patently not wanted. We do know that there are murals of unionist paramilitaries in various parts of Belfast, often wearing balaclavas and pointing guns at the nervous viewers of said murals. We do know there has been a mural that has urged young people to join the UDA, where they can die on their feet rather than live in an Irish republic.
All these are non-hypotheticals. They are all facts, in some cases bricks-and-mortar facts. Now perhaps our First Minister has been talking to the media and saying that there will be repercussions for all these divisive and illegal facts. It’s just that I don’t always read the newspapers or watch TV when Peter is talking, so I may well have missed it. He did say that if the McGuigan and/or Davison killings were linked to the IRA, there would be political repercussions, given that Sinn Féin is a part of the Executive. That’s IF. So here’s the question: will there be political repercussions for DUP MLAs and MPs being members of an anti-Catholic organisation? Will there be repercussions for illegal protest camps, for threatening murals, for public invitations to young men, urging them to engage in violence? Will Peter say that these things simply must end and that there will be political repercussions if they don’t? Because these are facts, not hypotheses. Real world stuff. And we’ve always been told that you, First Minister, are nothing if not a pragmatist.
Speak nice and loudly, Peter. We’re all ears.
Honestly Jude who gives a fiddlers feck what Mr Robinson says or thinks , I would pay more attention to the rantings of the village idiot .Unionist hypocrisy is infinite……do they really believe that we are moronic eejits . Unionism wants us to develop amnesia about everything they and their paramilitary friends do whilst continually lecturing us on suppositions and ” What-ifs “. What I will pay attention to are more ” Red Sky ” moments , more ” Letters from America ” moments etc. Perhaps ,now and again, Peter should be reminded of cold dark Antrim hilltops or sojourns amongst the drumlins in Co Monaghan.
I wonder what he is actually threatening to do? If the north ever gets ‘normal democracy’ where the largest coalition can rule we will be dragged back to medieval times. Catholics wouldn’t a chance, the working classes would become more deprived and the west would would face even more neglect. I think Peter wants to renegotiate how the assembly works so we can return to majority rule. The north is now sliding back to the days where conflict flourished. History is repeating itself. Not sure if the republican movement has considered that unionism is incapable of liberalism of any sort. I think sectarianism is more deeply seeded within the unionist community than anyone knew. I wonder if we passed a law that said politicians must be under 30 would be have a better chance for peace?
“I wonder if we passed a law that said politicians must be under 30 would be have a better chance for peace?”
I use to think that was a good method of pursuing peace here Emmet but after coming across young DUP activists such as “Dale Pankhurst” and others, I’m not so sure that method would make much of a difference, particularly within Unionism. The bigotry and hypocrisy is just as much within the DUP youth than in its most senior members.
When it comes to Unionism here its deeply entrenched in Orangeism. Its padlocked to the Orange Order and the Orange brethren call the shots. That’s the way it has been for, literally, centuries and its no different today. Young Unionists are under the heavy influence of older Unionists, especially those young people who are members of the Orange Order.
So I really don’t think getting younger people to replace older politicians will help that much. If the likes of Gregory Campbell and Nelson McCausland were to retire then that would most certainly help politics here but I don’t see it happening any time soon. Gregory’s pay packet and all expenses paid job is just too precious to him, not to mention the many opportunities to try to insult anything Irish that an MP’s role gives him.
Peter
Stop talking about that. Immediately.
Not at all, Gio.
The point is, as well you know, “stop talking about that” if you are not going to talk about the rest.
Wanna talk about that, Peter and Gio? Of course, we will – as long as we talk about the rest.
Let’s talk about the point Jude is making then, Gio. Eh?
Should we start with ‘dogs on the street’ versus facts first?
Ceannaire
I do pretty much agree that Peter should talk a lot more about what is going on in loyalist communities but I don’t see why he should not express his opinion about this killing.
Regardless of what the dogs in the street know it seems unlikely that good republicans would know nothing about what happened. No clue,saw nothing, heard nothing.
Just like with Robert McCartney.
But I agree,more or less,with the point Jude is making. Not sure what repercussions there should be for being in the Orange Order. It is not illegal yet.
It might be nice to hear him encouraging republicans to proactively help the police investigation. After all Unionists will pay little heed to his constant criticism, but republicans might heed his words.
Gio – I wish it were otherwise but I don’t think my words would carry much weight with the republican leadership. Or anyone else, come to think of it. Have I changed your mind on anything since you started reading this blog? Have I changed anyone else’s thinking? I very very very much doubt it. Mind you, I’m flattered you think I have that kind of potency….
Jude
Would you take the broad point that your thoughts are more likely to be read and approved of by those in the republican community,than those of a unionist persuasion? The tone of the comments clearly backs that up.
Yet the number of posts you write being critical of Unionism/Loyalism/Orange vastly outnumbers those making constructive suggestions for Republicanism, specifically Sinn Fein.
So would it not be an idea to focus on SF a bit more (just as you would like Peter to focus on the problems within Unionism) assuming that you don’t think they are perfect in every way?
Otherwise it just appears that you are content to keep preaching to the converted and singing from the Connolly House hymnsheet.
Good point, gio, and I’ll give it thought. I’d urge you, though, to take my pro-republican blogs in the context of the unremitting criticism of all things republican in the mainstream press here in the north and in the south…And yes, there’s Jim Gibney. I knew that.
Not only do we not need to speculate about the rules of the Orange Order, Esteemed Blogmeister, but there is no need neither to be either hyper-ventilating or hypothetical itself about the specific views of the Breds of Fermanagh about another particular organisation (of the ill-bred sort)..
One knows this from a timely piece today by the critically-acclaimed religious affairs correspondent of The Unionist Times. Under a heading ‘Fermanagh Orangemen give cold shoulder to the GAA’ the warm-hearted, likeable and Very Rev. Patsy MacGarry, Bachelor of Arts (for it is he !) paints a rather bleak portrait of the GAA in the Lake County of Fear Manach.
He does this courtesy of a critically-acclaimed survey carried out by the Breds on the Bogballers and Stickfighters and allows the stark findings to drum-roll their own grim findings in the manner muffled.
There is no need for him to comment. An other case, as it were, of An Madra nar Lig Glam as / The Dog that did not Bark.
For the unwritten subheading to the headline (see above) is,indubitably: ‘And who could blame them?’.
For, as the Very Rev P. McGarry, Pillar of the Unitarian Church on St. Stephen’s Green (where no orange groves are found), silently lists, sans comment, the crimes, oops, sins (this IS a religious affairs column): ‘The GAA is solely an organisation for the Nationalist / Catholic community’ and ‘ought to be ashamed of itself for calling its grounds after gunmen’.
Here be orange-flavoured irony surely, albeit of the purely unintentional variety; for if one were asked to come up with the quintessential Fermanagh name to combine both traditions one could well do somewhat worse than (gulp) Sam Maguire.
Who was not only not hypothetical but wasn’t even a Romanist or even a Fermanagh native neither.
A timely survey, indeed, for Na Buachailli on Eirne have been basking in unprecedented glory after their recent homerics in their quest for the, erm, Sam Maguire. Can’t have Quig and Co flying high and mighty now, can one? Time to come down to earth, ye non-earning amateurs, down to the Quagmire of naked, aggressive sectarianism in which other sports,such as say, at random, the Oval-balled Game, are not mired.
The only wonder wonder, surely, about the article is that no mention was made of the tendentious tendency of the GAA to call the grounds and clubs where their Dance Macabres are held after the roll call of the Saints. Tis only a matter of time, equally surely, that a CLG club called after Camille Saint-Saens will take to the field.
No doubt, space constraints were a factor here: the rel corr of The Unionist Times is only too acutely aware of the extent of bogball horrors his sainted readership can bear.
Oddly, it is not revealed who commissioned this survey. That is, really commissioned.
While on the topic of, erm, politico-religious matters, rather odd, too, how the equivalent of the Fairyhouse Tradition has not been featured in the morally-refined organ that is The Unionist Times in relation to the Great Donkey Derby 14-18.
This thought came to Perkie’s profoundly disappointed inner pacifiist, during the recent week-long gallop across the sands of Gallipoli by the jockey-sized President of the FSS, in tandem with the Prionsai, Cathal agus Anraoi.
Why,one wonders, the delay in referencing the Laytown Tradition?. There has been,has there not, a tradititon of gee-gee racing here which predates the Gallipopli Gallops by some millennia, stretching back even unto the time of the proto-UDA man himself, Q. Cullen.
To conclude with a different Peter: Peter the Great as distinct from Peter the Grate.
This Orange diversion into the internal affairs of the GAA in Fermanagh has been, while colourful, been just that: a divarsion. Different colours in a different, albeit neighbouring county, have been sidelined. When they ought to be allowed to be out there, strutting their stuff. There are far more important pith and moment.
To wit: have the brown shoes of Peter Canavan replaced the white boots of Frank McGuigan as THE central icons of Tyrone GAA ?
There are also some things I didn’t hear our Peter pontificate about or threaten repercussions:
Last week a man in Belfast was crucified to a shop counter by the UDA as part of their protection rackets and extortion.
Any comment, Peter?
During the Twelfth ‘celebrations’ three UDA friends got into an apparent drunken brawl, with the result that two of them are dead, killed by the Samurai sword of one of the victims.
Had you not heard about this case either, Peter? A double murder on your south Belfast patch and not a word of sympathy for the victims, or condemnation for the alleged culprit. Did you not even ask how a Samurai sword, a lethal weapon, came to be in the (legal/illegal) possession of a UDA man?
Tell us again Peter, about your policy on repercussions!
Most people in this part of the world have had enough repercussions to last a life time. Repercussions over the last few months include, bonfires, riots, Nazi emblems, Confederate flags, assaults, security alerts, explosions, shootings and murder most foul. The reality is the body politic is on life support. If Stormont operated as a value for money commercial enterprise, the administrators would have been busy long ago issuing redundancy notices with arrangements in hand to sell the estate in a commercially sensitive manner.
I have no idea why anyone would get themselves exercised by whatever it is the “IRA” is supposed to be doing.Never mind all that dubious stuff that unionism has always engaged in that you mention , Jude. They’ve never been too keen on keeping the laws of the land all that sacred, themselves. Let’s face it.All that ranting, raving and encouraging poor dumb fuckwits out onto the streets to make fools of themselves and maybe even attempt to cull the odd policeman with a ceremonial sword isn’t too far away from the more shadowy doings of the crucifiers working their skills on Belfast’s kitchen -worktops or the killing of someone with a samurai sword or a machete. Come to think of it….. .who the hell in their right mind would have a ceremonial sword or a samurai sword at home anyway?
No…all this old bollocks about the IRA being involved in this and that doesn’t make a lot of sense and sounds just a bit like late Summer bumphery dredged up to make anti-republican soundbites for the UUP and the DUP, to remind their members that they haven’t gone away on holidays y’know ,and they’re still working on their followers’ case.Apparently the DUP and Sinn Fein have been beavering away behind doors these past weeks trying their hardest to save the Gravy Train before we all throw our hands up in the air and admit that we just can’t do politics in Norneverland.
The thing is, the IRA is not really a functioning group some twenty years on, unless somewhere in the depths someone, somewhere is actively recruiting young men and stockpiling weaponry and bombs.You have to ask why they’d ever want to do that when it would serve no real purpose in this modern world. Are they members of Sinn Fein or are they members of the Continuity IRA or the Dissidents who are not members of the IRA?
If that isn’t the case ,what has that to do with Sinn Fein party, exactly…many of whose members would be too young to even have properly remembered who or what the IRA used to be twenty years ago.Of course there are dissdents and continuities and all the rest , but essentially these are people who are not really “the IRA” at all and actively hate Sinn Fein for concentrating on a purely political path . They don’t like the idea of actually working inpolitics at all.
The IRA gave up all of that military stuff many years ago when the consigned all that weaponry to history.That was the end of the physical force dream. Of course there may be a few old IRA men who don’t get it and maybe still imagine that the situation is the same as it used to be ….and imagine that this kind of thing wouldn’t damage their ancient allies in Sinn Fein. They’d be wrong if they are still tight with the Sinn Fein leadership and the Sinn Fein leadership would be wrong to have them about the place if that’s the way they think ….so what is the truth of it all and ….who would need friends like that?
In the end it appears to be a tussle between republicanism and unionism as to who might have the best excuse to crash local government and create a breathing space…but I don’t think either of them really wants to give up their seats on the Gravy Train anytime soon.
At the moment, it is indeed speculation that the PIRA may have been behind the Killing of Kevin McGuigan. I have my own views on the matter but again my views is speculation, not fact. What is not speculation, as Jude has made clear, is that the UDA/UVF are still in existence, dealing drugs, involved in criminality, involved in racist/sectarian intimidation and even recruiting young people. We have heard absolutely nothing from political Unionism regarding these facts, never mind repercussions.
Winston Irvine (a Loyalist spokesman and “community worker”) has been accused, with evidence, by BBC spotlight well over a year ago of being a UVF Commander. Winston “Winkie” Irvine is on the Policing Board. A woman who lives in a Loyalist area said on the BBC Spotlight programme: “How can we go to the PSNI about UVF criminality when one of their members are on the Policing Board?”. She has a point. Have we heard anything from the DUP or UUP regarding these accusations? Not a peep. Nil. Zilch. Can you imagine the outcry if it was a republican accused of being a dissident being a member of the Policing Board? Poor Nelson McCausland would be on the verge of heart failure.
One gets the impression the DUP/UUP, the DUP in particular, doesn’t much mind the UVF/UDA still being in existence. There again their history shows they actually had quite a cosy relationship with Loyalist terrorists. We even had Peter Robinson flatly refusing to call Loyalist killers terrorists and instead called them “Counter terrorists”. We had Sammy Wilson calling an early 1990’s UDA plan of genocide and ethnic cleansing of Catholics as ” a very valuable return to reality”. We had both Sammy and Peter carrying a few UDA leaders coffins, John McMichael being one of them. And, of course, who could forget Ian Paisley Snr’s involvement with Loyalist/Unionism terrorism. Even many Loyalists jailed said they were inspired to murder/bomb/terrorize Catholics due to Ian Paisley Snr. Then very recently allegedly (I say allegedly because I haven’t seen photos but judging by Ruth’s record you can bet your house its true) DUP Ruth Patterson went to a memorial parade in South Belfast to killers Joe Bratty and Raymond Elder. The year before DUP Edwin Poots son was seen at the memorial parade to Joe Bratty and Elder, according to Luke Poots he was “accidently” attending…..yes, you read that correctly. I could keep on going here with examples but I think readers get the idea.
George Galloway summed the DUP (and, lets be honest, Unionism in general) up nicely when he said “The DUP lecturing others is like the Hunchback of Notre Dame telling others to sit up straight”.
(In reference to burning Irish national flags. I happened to read an article by Ruth Dudley Edwards yesterday about 11th July bonfires. According to Ruth burning Irish national flags, hatefest/sectarian bonfires, etc are all just a bit of “fun”. Ruth’s agenda and one sidedness is getting so obvious that even a blind man could see it. I see now too that Mairia Cahill is now doing articles in the Belfast Telegraph. Judging by her articles so far Mairia could be mistaken for the secret apprentice of RDE).
Here’s the video of Peter Robinson calling Loyalist paramilitaries “Counter Terrorists”, its just a “fact of life” according to Peter…
Isn’t it amazing how so many people on this blog love having a pop at the so called flaws in Unionism..
Imagine if unionism was lead by a leadership that had hidden child abuse covered up rape and lest we forget was a hundred per cent behind terrorism, wouldn’t Republicans have a field day and say they weren’t fit for government.
As we know of course Unionism hasn’t done this and of course unionist voters wouldn’t vote for parties that had been involved in those type of activities.
However a clear majority of the Catholic electorate seem to have had no problem in voting for a party that has been involved in the heinous activities.
So the nub of my argument is that of course Unionists are obviously morally superior people in direct comparison to our near Nationalist neighbours perhaps one day Nationalists might aspire to our higher morality….one day!
Ah neill – you’re better than that. You really are…
Ah Jude you probably are right its your bad influence on me it really is…..or I could be taking the Michael who can tell…the real question is why am I replying to you at this time of night?
Your private life is your own, neill …Don’t be firing up my fevered imagination
Is he really? I’m starting to wonder.
I always try to be kind and will agree with Jude, Neill, you are better than that.
“of course Unionists are obviously morally superior people in direct comparison to our near Nationalist neighbours perhaps one day Nationalists might aspire to our higher morality….one day!”
We rest our case.
“Isn’t it amazing how so many people on this blog love having a pop at the so called flaws in Unionism..”
So called flaws Neill? lol
“Imagine if unionism was lead by a leadership that had hidden child abuse covered up rape and lest we forget was a hundred per cent behind terrorism, wouldn’t Republicans have a field day and say they weren’t fit for government.”
I assume your referring to accusations against Sinn Fein Neill. Tell us, has anyone from SF been convicted of such crimes? If so, I have never heard of it. Have you ever heard of Kincorra House? Allegations that Unionist politicians abused young boys there Neill but Unionists like yourself like to keep quiet about those allegations and its cover up. And lets not get started about the paedophile ring at Westminster and the accusations against a number of British Royals, I’ll be here all day typing….
On the topic of “Terrorism”. I think you’ll find Unionist politicians were long flirting with Loyalist sectarian murder gangs for decades Neill and used the RUC/UDR/B Specials as their own Militia or “muscle”. And no Neill just because those organisations were legal doesn’t make it right. The UDA were legal once and we all know the UFF was just the UDA under a different name when murdering Catholics at random. It was Gusty Spence, the founder of the modern UVF that said he was paid by the Unionist Government to start a “sectarian war”. So your claim Unionism wasn’t involved with terrorism is as ridiculous as saying the UVF was a non violent organisation. In fact, i wouldn’t be surprised if you said that sooner or later, I’m waiting for it because you do come off with some cracker lines Neill….
“As we know of course Unionism hasn’t done this and of course unionist voters wouldn’t vote for parties that had been involved in those type of activities.”
They haven’t done this? I assume your referring to child abuse and its cover up Neill? I wouldn’t be so sure if i were you. Unionist voters were too busy voting for a deranged, fundamentalist, anti-Catholic preacher for decades Neill and lets not get started on the sectarian, discriminating Unionist Government that used the RUC and the B Specials as its own militia, again I’ll be here typing all day….
“However a clear majority of the Catholic electorate seem to have had no problem in voting for a party that has been involved in the heinous activities.”
Yep, keep bringing up religion Neill. The DUP/UUP and Orange Order will be proud….
“So the nub of my argument is that of course Unionists are obviously morally superior people in direct comparison to our near Nationalist neighbours perhaps one day Nationalists might aspire to our higher morality….one day!”
Morally superior? Or do you mean Unionists are just plain old superior in every way to Catholics Neill? That view was pretty fashionable for the Unionist Government here and right back to the good old days of the Penal Laws. Those were moral laws, weren’t they? I already expressed my view before that I think your a DUP supporter/voter, your views would make Nelson McCausland proud but now I also think your also a member of the Orange Order Neill, one of the “Not an inch” or “No Surrender” types. As the DUP like to call them: “Right thinking people”.
I don’t think we will be taking lessons on morality from someone that thinks Cromwell was justified in committing genocide Neill. In fact as time goes on I’m actually wondering are you from the same Planet as the rest of us….
Neill you really do live on another planet. Please try to read, study history and get out of your bubble more. The unionist umbrella is one of the most morally corrupt groupings I know of. Republicans have never covered up rape of child abuse, unionists have. Look into more of your leaders and then you can come back for a debate. Your contributions are always based on some crazy view of reality with no basis in fact. It is as if you were brought up on some remote cult farm were you were fed lies all of your life.
Kincora!
Sinn Fein seem strangely quiet about all these issues.
Listening to young Peter Robinson mentioning “Roman Catholics” in that video I realized young Peter did not want anyone to be confused with the
the following list of Catholics roaming around the north of Ireland.
+ Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
+ Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
+ Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
+ Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Kri_evci
+ Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
+ Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
+ Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
+ Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
+ Melkite Greek Catholic Church
+ Romanian Church
+ Russian Byzantine Catholic Church
+ Ruthenian Catholic Church
+ Slovak Greek Catholic Church
+ Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Why do people get so uptight when they are termed by their proper title? The vast majority of Catholics in the western world are of the Roman church so they are Roman Catholics. What’s the problem with that?
Has it anything to do with lesbians resenting people who talk about them as though they came from Lesbos?
Good analogy, but at the end of the day, it’s still a Roman based religion both historically & culturally. I always thought it was more polite to say Roman Catholic rather than just Catholic.
Sweet suffering sassafrass, neil .Are you remotely serious? Look at that YouTube piece of Peter’s again. That’s only a tiny part of the hypocrisy we actually know of and that is in front of our eyes on film. “Counter -terrorists!”…are you remotely serious? That ‘s something Peter made up between his ears while he tussled with the hard facts of brutality .Let’s get serious. That’s Peter trying to bully his questioner when he’s asked to give a straight answer .It’s also Peter hedging his bets by keeping the armed rump of unionist ” counter-terrorism” onside …just in case….hardly purely political behaviour.
Look ,we all know that the political animal is a more than devious creature .It goes with the territory that they are all gaurded when answering questions that might come back to bite them. They are excellent at giving “non- answers”.We all know that every organisation from unionism to republicanism …the police, the army ….to any large firm like Marks and Sparks …has a share of individuals who are sheltered . There’s even speculation about Edward Heath at the moment , who led an entire country for the Conservatives…well whether he was a paedophile or not or was sheltered or whatever, he was followed and voted in by a large group of people .He may be innocent , of course. Gerry Adams’ brother seems to have been an abuser and there were rapists in the the rank and file of the IRA , I have no doubt. There were murderers too. There probably are in their opposite number , the british army or the various unionist and loyalist groupings…not to mention the police force of the day …whom I can’t pull out the hat at the moment.. someone out there will doubtless have a list pinned to their wall so that they can compare sins..but that’s just mad human society…in fact ,it’s just families in everyday life .It’s nothing new to have a criminal or an alchoholic or a sex-fiend in an otherwise blameless family .That’s life. Not my brother’s keeper and all that…
Going back right into the the 1960’s , the only terrorism was coming from unionism then … and its supporters .I think the first person murdered in cold blood was John Gallaher. He was shot to death by an armed gang of B Specials. Yes armed, politically driven , uniformed special ,unionist, terrorist ,policemen who were sheltered and protected by their unionist masters. They might have been heroes in their own families and communities but that was all.They had a free hand to terrorise anyone they felt like and were paid by the state to do it.It’s a simple fact of what life was like then.
.Just to give you a flavour of life in those rose-tinted times that led up to the future conflagration and to set things in some kind of context for you , here’s one of our world-esteemed local poets take on it .Pulitzer prize winning Paul Muldoon who was brought up in Co . Armagh and mentored by Seamus Heaney at Queen’s University and who shared a classroom and those times with good friends of mine before going on to literary glory on the world stage.
Do you honestly think that any of these characters are purer than driven snow?We’ll probably hear much more about their private lives as the years peel by and stories come out, but there’s enough to be getting on with already.
“The Sightseers” By Paul Muldoon
My father and mother, my brother and sister
and I, with uncle Pat, our dour best-loved uncle,
had set out that Sunday afternoon in July
in his broken-down Ford
not to visit some graveyard — one died of shingles,
one of fever, another’s knees turned to jelly —
but the brand-new roundabout at Ballygawley,
the first in mid-Ulster.
Uncle Pat was telling us how the B-Specials
had stopped him one night somewhere near Ballygawley
and smashed his bicycle
and made him sing the Sash and curse the Pope of Rome.
They held a pistol so hard against his forehead
there was still the mark of an O when he got home.
Oh, how I love that poem, PK. Glad you included the bit about going to view the Ballygawley roundabout – at the time thought a wonder, and echoing the O on his uncle’s head. Now where else have I seen a group of uniformed unionists marching round and round and going nowhere?…Oh right. Now I remember.
Ahh there’s poesy everywhere, Jude…
Sam Devenney was killed before John Gallagher. The RUC broke into his house in Derry and beat him to death and then turned on his daughters. I think the level of state terrorism is the point you were getting at, so I think this amplifies that argument.
I am Emmett ..but John Gallagher ..for whatever reason …is the first officially recorded violent death in the Troubles…They might have their own reasons for this but there is no doubt that this is the first “proper” murderous conflict shooting. A friend of mine was very close to it and described it like fireworks going off….It was seen as very shocking at the time…
Strange. I think there is a plaque outside Sam’s house saying he was the first victim, I am pretty sure most of Derry would consider his the first murder. Witnesses were in no doubt that the RUC men wanted to kill, the attack was very vicious. What is the ‘official’ source for deaths? Makes you wonder how many other murders aren’t acknowledged/covered up. I used to use the CAIN site.
“Chronologically the first victim of the Northern Ireland conflict was John Scullion, a 28-year-old Belfast Catholic who was shot by members of an extremist British Protestant gang, the Ulster Volunteer Force, at the door of his west Belfast home on 27 May, 1966.”
Found this on a Google search. I suppose it depends on when you decide the ‘troubles’ (I really hate that term) started.
Well Emmett ..I didn’t really want to get into some conflict pissing contest, but although there were many incidents throughout the 1960’s , there’s no doubt that it was after the Civil Rights protests began that what the media likes to call “the Troubles” began. Before that there was low-level resentment and of course Gusty Spence was active as a terrorist in the mid -1960’s but it was only when the police force began actually gunning -down people openly in their streets that you could say the whole paranoid thing really kicked off. There’s no doubt that we went through an almost immediate social change right there .
Probably true, although there may be some that say the ‘troubles’ in the 50s also changed a lot socially. I don’t know much about the 50s although I remember reading a book on republicanism in the north during the first border campaign. It is easy to see why the state was so paranoid, it was a very young state and was founded in a very ad hoc illegitimate way with a large portion of it citizens disloyal- it was after all a completely artificial construct. I doesn’t really matter when people say the troubles began, the real trouble began with the illegal partition of Ireland in 1921.
Not allowing someone into an organisation they wouldn’t want into is not the same as shooting them.
BTW I’m no fan of the Robos, in fact, I detest them.
You may already have noted Newton Emersons tweet on your blog
“The dumbest response to the murder of Kevin Mc Guigan that can possibly be written.How does this fool get airtime”
I take it he’s off your Christmas card list,then!!
I have long since stopped bothering what Newt has to say about anything – especially anything political. But sure as long as the lad is happy…
Don’t know much about Newton but from a quick glance he doesn’t seem to be very informed or intelligent. I’d take his comment as compliment. Argenta, if you are losing an argument you shouldn’t really use someone else’s insults as a proxy insult. It also shows you might not have anything more to contribute to the argument.
Emmet
Not sure what you’re getting at.I hadn’t contributed previously on this particular blog and my referencing of Newton was meant to be lighthearted.Don’t think Jude was too worried but you seem to be concerned!
I maybe misread your tone then Argenta. Still I wouldn’t like someone quoting an insult about me with no good reason. Maybe Jude has thicker skin than me, I guess he has to, to put yourself out there against the flow of mass media.
That’s what I like about this blog people are very nice at handing stick out but are incapable of taking any back.
Still Unionism bad Republicanism good…
Der stuermer has nothing on this blog!
Ah now Neill – people are entitled, as are you, to their views…
Yes they do you and Newon should kiss and makeup!
I’d be afraid of mistaking one part of his anatomy for another, neill : ) …
Jude,
Just out of interest, Alliance posters were also burned on bonfires.
Can I ask why you omitted to mention that?
I forgot. Tá bron orm – I’m sorry. Agus mea culpa.
Ah, looks like the IRA were involved after all; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34009501
Oh well, as long as we didn’t all spend ages going through hoops to deny it while trying to make it look like we weren’t…